Attention all Hitting Gurus

That post is really funny. There is a tension at work with baseball hitting.

First, you must teach a system. I have an older boy and a very young one. I taught the older boy to hit like most major leaguers did 12 years ago. I will teach the 9 year old a certain set system, but it has changed over the years from what I taught the first one.

The second part of the tension is when you coach many kids you must adapt to them or force them into your system. No two players look alike, there is a "fingerprint" to the way their body does things. Also, some have more pop than others, some more footspeed, etc. I would work within the player's attributes, style and system when working with many and not force my particular system on them. Most coaches cannot do this.

Lastly, I cannot hit my way out of a wet paper bag. I'm really good at bowling, math and I'm decent at fighting. Does it really matter if someone can hit to teach hitting? Most who could or can hit teach the way THEY DO IT. That is sometimes a problem.

I must admit, I have learned on this website from most everyone who has posted. I love the point counterpoints & think they help. I love the passion the "gurus" have for the game and particularly hitting. I don't think anyone here has mistaken some of us for gurus, instead we are dads or coaches who love the game. It gets frustrating for some to see the posts, not understand what is even being argued and try to go back and make some sense of it.

I don't mind "multi-syllabic" words, even when I don't know what they mean. When I get through with this post I'm going to google "multi-syllabic" just to make sure it is a word.

quote:

t's not about making all of you feel better about yourself because you can use multi-syllabic words in your posts.

Take a pill you'll feel better in the morning.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

Take a pill you'll feel better in the morning.

I'm sorry, but if you are not a doctor you have no place giving such advice on this forum.

We have several hitting gurus on this site and each brings something to the table. Some like to hear themselves type ( ) and others have some very valuable info. I don't think any of us agree on who the preceeding sentence applies to since we disagree so much when it comes to hitting. Thus the beauty of this site. If one or two posters say something, I really take time to listen and think it out. Others I get a nice chuckle. They might get the same chuckle when I post something. I see no harm at all except when it comes to attacks on people etc. I don't think this site is for that. For example, there is a gentleman that has sold thousands of DVDs on hitting. I don't like some of his ideas. There is another gentleman that has sold hundreds. I like his ideas a lot and spend a lot of time reading his hitting site. Again, a part of the beauty of this site is to help you become aware of all that is out there and then you can pick and choose what direction you want to go. One particular poster on hitting and I have often disagreed. However, as long as he is civil, I don't have any problem with him and everyone has the option of going to his site and reading his material. I'll stay where I'm comfortable because that person's site MAKE ONE HECK OF A LOT OF SENSE TO ME.

Coachb25, very well said!!

i have always enjoyed your posts and our emails, on another website was an article about hitting and one guy i've shared some info with spoke of a "hybrid" hitter. never heard that term before. are you familiar with it??

this is what he wrote:


I know I said I don't like the web site i attached but there is a good film clip of David Ortiz. The reason I attached it is because I think Ortiz would be classified by most as a rotational hittier but he is precisely what I would call a hybrid guy. The only difference in the true definition of a hybrid is that a true hybrid guy usually loses contact with the back foot, i absolutely do not advocate that. Although, doubledroptine has it pegged, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". problem is that if you work hard enough at this you will find out that almost all of them are broke some way or another. My main objective to win games obviously but i hav e a personal agenda in that i'm not sure i don't get more gratification out of getting marginal kids signed to play at the next level. that being said, using the clip from the link above, this is exactly why HS kids should not be compared to pros. This ball is way in, he is way jammed, and he still hits the ball out of the yard. second, look at his back pocket in the side view and decide whether or not his hips srart the hack or his hands. i think that he does some things with his front foot that HS kids would never get away with and there is no way in he double hockey sticks that they would hit that pitch out of the yard with their hands in that position. thhe thing i like about it is that his lower half never changes and he makes the adjust ment for the barrell with his hands not his lower half like most young kids do.

Deaconspoint, Dr Bobblehead or Bobblehead MD sounds kind of cool. Maybe he should take a blue pill and a pink one.

Personally I enjoy the varied opinions on hitting although I am not a hitting guy. The last I heard no one got hurt by bad advice on hitting but I suppose anything is plausible.

quote:

How do you teach what you know to players who actually play.

I teach using random training with delayed feedback.....Everybody else I know of teaches block training with instant feedback.....

An example of what I do is, I don't wany my student participating in hitting stations at practice....No soft toss and no tee hitting......Depending on the age of the student, either myself or the player talks this over with the coach....

Batting practice hitting is O.K....Any speed!!

If I may???.....

I think a qualification to be tagged as a hitting guru requires that one have their own hitting website....

I say to be a guru you must sell a hitting DVD.

Or BlueDog's posts could look like this... (current post count of 1408 divided by 3 equals 469 pearls of wisdom)

quote:

How do you teach what you know to players who actually play.

I teach using random training with delayed feedback.....Everybody else I know of teaches block training with instant feedback.....

An example of what I do is, I don't wany my student participating in hitting stations at practice....No soft toss and no tee hitting......Depending on the age of the student, either myself or the player talks this over with the coach....

Batting practice hitting is O.K....Any speed!!

If I may???.....

I think a qualification to be tagged as a hitting guru requires that one have their own hitting website....

Want to be a GURU?

Read the following thread below>

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8291034941/m/6271011151

If any of you guru's are thinking of going international. Here is how you will want to present yourself.

Chinese: 宗師, 宗师
French: gourou m
Greek: γκουρού
Hindi: गुरू
Japanese: 教祖
Korean: 지도자
Kannada: ಗುರು
Punjabi: ਗੁਰੂ
Sanskrit: गुरु
Telugu: గురువు, ఓ రంగంలో :విశారదుడు, కోవిదుడు
Urdu: گرو

If PGStaff, BlueDog and Shepster declares me to be a hitting guru I am regardless of tapes or websites.

One time I had one of my players wax my car all day. When he was finished he was very frustrated but I showed him how "wax on, wax off" was a great way to hit and take the pitcher out of his rhythm. Was a really strange looking swing. Pitcher laughed so hard we walked to victory.

Same player painted my fence. I showed him how that motion "paint up, paint down" could produce a downward plane in his swing. He got two catcher interfernces in one game and we won by a run.

So, since I have such advanced techniques -- would someone please bless me as a guru?

By the way, and no kidding aside, if Shep, Bluedog, CoachB25 or PGStaff say something about hitting, pay attention.

Blue Dog- Why no soft toss or tee hitting?

Soft toss and tee hitting is block training with instant feedback....

Not the way I teach.....

When a player hits off a tee or with soft toss, the player's emphasis will be on hitting the ball.....

I want the emphasis to be on how they load and unload....And, I want to get them in that frame of mind as quickly as possible....Then, and only then, can we make progress and move forward with the learning process, IMO....

I will add......

Loading, unloading and timing the pitch is the motor control process....Teaching one without the other is counter-productive, IMO, because they function together, not independently of each other.....This is what random training with delayed feedback is about....

Soft toss from the front is O.K. as long as the pitcher is some distance away from the batter....Soft toss from the side is what I stay away from....And, hitting into a net I, also, stay away from....

I use a "Hands Back Hitter" in every session.....Everything I want to teach is built into that product....It's a form of soft toss, but, with some really big differences....It makes the batter shift his weight, helps teach how momentum works and helps instill loading while striding.......And, the ball is moving, so, the motor control functions are all in play.....

BlueDog- You're giving us some useful stuff. Can you explain your "Hands Back Hitter" a little more.

Hands Back Hitter

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
BlueDog- You're giving us some useful stuff. Can you explain your "Hands Back Hitter" a little more.

So NCBall, since you're online, I've been meaning to ask you this question for many months. Are you saying BlueDog is the only one here who is contributing useful stuff? Many true lifers have contributed to many threads here who have experience and great success as hitters, instructors and player development fixer uppers(instructors @ professional levels, not just college). I'm just not referring to myself either Keep up the good work out on the West Coast, but your not the only one who has made contributions and many of us don't look for compensation. peace norcal, shep

Shep- I was complimenting Blue Dog because he answered something in the specific thread I started. He was one of the few guys. BTW- I like your posts. Finally, there are dozens of people who do more than I ever will. My point was that I'm not some dad running a travel team to win $10 trophies. There are legit programs all over and he doesn't understand that. Now, you should be sleeping!

Good night brother. I apologize. This is past my bedtime and my last night to stay up late before reporting back to work Monday morning. Have a great season and by the way, you do have my utmost respect for the great contributions you have made to our precious game. peace shep

I have yet to come across a hitting instructor who emphasizes the triceps in the swing and their importance.

Most instruction I have come across relies heavily on the biceps.

I constantly see talk of the use of the hands, forearms, shoulders, legs etc, but nothing about the triceps.

The difference between being good and being great lies in proper respect for the triceps and their value in the use of propelling the arms, foreams, wrists and hands.

Why are the triceps overlooked or misunderstood in hitting instruction?

I know the answer to that question Quincy. It's because the biceps are the easiest muscles to train between the two groups, biceps and triceps.

There has to be balanced muscle training building between opposites. Another example would be quads and hamstrings. Another would be abs and back muscles. I've seen many baseball players in my career who refuse to train both sides of the body and get very unbalanced. Why do you think so many players have pulled hamstrings? A Conditioning coach such as Jon Doyle is the key to great success. Just make sure that any trainer you choose to get you to the top incorporates an excellent diet which should include collard greens and chicken opposed to B-12 shots.

Good post Quincy and so often over-looked in the total preparation of the "player". peace shep
PS(Got any more Shoeless Joe clips or any Satchel Page?)

quote:

Another would be abs and back muscles.

Yes, many times misunderstood how to train these two muscle groups to get smart......

The key is the "glutes"......The lower back and the abs are controlled by the glute muscles........This is the core of the body......This is the balance point of the body......This core keeps the spine in good order which carries nerve impulses to the rest of the body...

If this core is weak, the whole body is weak........

some good videos on Satchel Paige

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=satchel%20p...ell&resnum=0&spell=1

BlueDog posted "If the core is weak the whole body is weak". Absolutely 100% truth. I see kids train in the weight room and never work the core. They appear to be big and strong players. But they have no baseball strength. They have no power at the plate. As Shep said train from in inside out. The core is your foundation.

ahh yes,

"The BlueDog has spoken".

The gluteous minimus and maximus should not be neglected and are very important in core training.
Good strong lats also help the proper alignment of the spine and firm lean abdomen muscles without much body fat decrease pressure and tension on the spine. Here's a well-conditioned core which lends itself to a more relaxed body posture as a hitter

Interesting reading on the importance of a strong core..........And, the importance of the glute muscles..........

http://www.biggerfasterstronger.com/uploads/Glute-Ham%20Book.pdf

I'm new to this website, but I thought I's share my pov anyway. I look forward to learning a lot here.

reply to bluedog, I have an HBH and found it pretty much useless except as a toy. Those really light balls that come with it can be whanged around the house in the winter without endangering anything.

I don't like them for the same reason I don't use soft toss from the side, batters don't have to hit balls popping up into the strike zone for coming from the side. I like short toss from the front. The tee is still my most valuable tool.

I coached six years at the LL level and learned from one guru. I don't know if posting commercial websites is allowed here, but if its ok, I'll link his site. I learned a lot about a high level swing from him, but his real strength is in teaching. He has dozens, perhaps hundreds of drills and gimicks that ingrain his points.

I had mixed results with teaching his methods. My son and another kid on his LL team dominated the league their last year in LL after a workshop with the guru, but other kids I and the guru worked with didn't do so well. I think his lessons have to be reinforced or they tend to slip away. And, of course, a certain amount of talent and desire help a lot. The willingness to give up old misconceptions is also helpful, particularly at the HS level. HS kids tend to be more resistant to new learning.

quote:

I have an HBH and found it pretty much useless except as a toy.

Tells me alot about your choice of swing theory.....I would venture to say you wouldn't agree with the inventor of the HBH's hitting theory.....Well, I do....

quote:

The tee is still my most valuable tool.

Stay with it...It's easy to hit.......

A friend of mine got a hands back hitter. He told me about it. I checked it out. The best hitting tool I have seen.

I like T work but only in this manner and only for short periods of time. And only when we can immediately hit live afterwards.

Put the ball on the T. Look at the imaginary pitcher in front of you never look at the T. Imagine seeing the pitcher rocker step and begin to deliver the ball to the plate. Visualize the pitcher throwing a pitch to you. Track the imaginary baseball all the way to the T while going through your entire approach. Pick up the ball as you have tracked the imaginary baseball to the T.

Immediately after you have gone through five or 6 of these drills get some live arm bp with change of speeds mixed in.

I do not like to see guys standing over a T taking hack after hack. This is totally a waist of time. Hitting is timing. Most hitters struggle because of timing issues. Soft toss from the side and T work hamper the learing process as far as timing goes.

Live arm bp / change of speed bp / Front toss /

T work is too easy. It screws up more swings than it helps. And it does not address the primary concerns in a swing. You are better off with dry swings and an imaginary pitcher going through your timing sequence.

Of course this is jmo.

I will tell you this our guys success at games is much better when we take some live bp or no bp than it is when they get on a t before a game. We stopped T work before games. We dont allow T work unless it is supervised and done in the manner talked about above.

hitting is timing / pitching is disruption of timing / T work takes the timing process out of the equation therefore screwing up hitters.

Again this is just one old mans opinion.

Blue dog - "Stay with it...It's easy to hit....... "
Each drill has a specific purpose. Tee work has two, to work on form and power. Tell Arod tees are useless. He uses them a lot.

As far as the HBH, in addition to popping up into the zone, it requires a stride. I find it easier to teach the basics of rotational swinging without the stride. Once they understand and ingrain the swing, they can add the stride if they want. Do you know an MLBer who uses them?

"random training with delayed feedback" You're right, I'm not familiar with this theory. Is there someplace you can point me to learn more about it? I am interested in learning.

http://www.apa.org/releases/retention.html

http://www.rugbycoach.com/club/skills/cognitive.htm

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

I have an HBH and found it pretty much useless except as a toy.

Tells me alot about your choice of swing theory.....I would venture to say you wouldn't agree with the inventor of the HBH's hitting theory.....Well, I do....

BlueDog, is it possible that the hitters are using the hips as the "go" move instead of the hands and are improperly "using" the HBH? The hips should clear and allow separation between the hips and hands, therefore when the ball pops up only the hands need to commit.

If you wait for the ball to come up then open the hips it takes too long to execute the swing. The hips must be opening and get a running start as well as the hands getting a running start before stepping.

I believe this may be underlying problem for those who don't think the HBH is any good.

quote:

If you wait for the ball to come up then open the hips it takes too long to execute the swing.

XV, I'm assuming this is what is happening.....

quote:

The hips should clear and allow separation between the hips and hands, therefore when the ball pops up only the hands need to commit.

I agree, but, I doubt Bbdoug does.......

Bluedog, how do you use the HBH in your routines? Maybe a dumb question but I am interested to see if you are doing anything different with it than I am.

Dazed63

Dazed, I think it's important to produce torque in two areas........ I rotate the hips into footplant producing torque in the midsection........And, I load the bat out of plane to produce torque in the hands......

So, when the front foot hits the string (ground), I float the bat till I'm ready to swing......My body is stretched (torqued) and when I'm ready to swing, I torque the bat handle.......

Dazed, keep in mind I'm not teaching the learn to rotate theory.......I'm teaching the "stretch and fire" theory..........

Learn to rotate types will have closed hips when the front foot hits the string (ground)....I don't believe that's good for hitting and certainly not good for the HBH.........These types of hitters struggle to make late swing adjustments, IMO....

The HBH is geared for "stretch and fire" hitting technique.........It's the way I see MLB hitters swing the bat.......

quote:

"random training with delayed feedback" You're right, I'm not familiar with this theory. Is there someplace you can point me to learn more about it? I am interested in learning.

Bbdoug, the way Coaches and instructors run their hitting practices is referred to as "block training"........They set up stations followed with BP and the players get feedback from the Coaches at each station and as they swing in BP.........The problem with this kind of teaching is in the area of retention....Players may learn something that particular practice, but, does this learning carry over to their games, is the question.....

As in, how many players have good cage swings, but don't hit well in games?

Random training lets the player learn in a different way..........

Another thing to think about is this.......Coaches like to see their players hitting well in pratice because it's good for the player's confidence.......So, pitches get grooved and speed and break are diminished........But, do players really learn from this?......Does this really build confidence or something else that is not so good?

Another area to think about.....If a player gets feedback from the Coach or instructor in the form of looking at video of themselves swinging, if the feedback is presented in a "blocked" way, many times the player will see this as criticism and back away from the instruction......

quote:

There are lots of people on here who have strong opinions on the proper baseball swing. It seems like most of you hypothesize and very few actually have practical experience teaching it.

NCBALL,

You make an interesting point and the internet is a crazy place to be if you are trying to do what is best for your kids and if you are looking for information. Too much information will ruin a kids swing. I say find a belief system and also video tape your kids swing or your own swing. See what feels right and also get feedback from yourself.
What has worked for me is to try and model yourself after a player and try different things. Trial and error is pretty important and I have done a pretty good job teaching my son a good swing.

Good luck and watch out for the landmines (guru's).

BlueDog

The articles you linked on learning theory are interesting and I can see how using the random training feedback and delayed may be useful. But, I have trouble seeing how they can be incorporated into teaching a kid a high level swing in the context of an actual practice with 12-15 kids who need to be kept busy learning and practicing.

Perhaps you could take the time to describe how you would teach a high level swing in that context. If the learning theory works, then I could see it being of considerable benefit. I still don't see how you get away from teaching each of the components of a high level swing without the so-called block training.

quote:

I still don't see how you get away from teaching each of the components of a high level swing.......

Bbdoug, what are the components of a high level swing?

Example: Do you tell a player to put their hands right here, right now?....Or, do you tell a player to put their hands where they won't get trapped and where they will be able to torque the bat handle?

The block way is, right here, right now........The random way is, don't get 'em trapped and allow 'em to be able to provide torque....

Which way is keeping the player busier and with more to think about and comprehend?

Which way will the player retain more of what he learned?

My take on the components of a high level swing is this.......Whatever it takes to consistently square up the bat barrel on the ball and with power..........

Now, if the player figures this out with me prodding him along, will he become an independent thinker?

If I show him where to be and when to be there, will he be dependent on me for all of his thinking?

I like to tell players, figure it out and get back to me when you think you've got it.......

BlueDog - "If I show him where to be and when to be there, will he be dependent on me for all of his thinking?

I like to tell players, figure it out and get back to me when you think you've got it......."

Huh? So, you don't believe in coaching? I suppose if you subscribe to the hypothesis that if you put a million chimps on a million typerwriters, they will eventually write all of the great literary masterpieces, then your notion might be useful, someday, to someone. But, if you hope to teach the fundamentals of baseball to kids, you need to show them how it's done.

"My take on the components of a high level swing is this.......Whatever it takes to consistently square up the bat barrel on the ball and with power.........."

This tells me that you don't know what the components of a high level swing are. There may be something to the learning theory you directed me to, but if you don't know the subject matter you are teaching, the greatest learning methods and theory are useless. That also tells me a lot about why you like the HBH.

quote:

Originally posted by bbdoug:
BlueDog - "If I show him where to be and when to be there, will he be dependent on me for all of his thinking?

I like to tell players, figure it out and get back to me when you think you've got it......."

Huh? So, you don't believe in coaching? I suppose if you subscribe to the hypothesis that if you put a million chimps on a million typerwriters, they will eventually write all of the great literary masterpieces, then your notion might be useful, someday, to someone. But, if you hope to teach the fundamentals of baseball to kids, you need to show them how it's done.

Amen to that.

quote:

This tells me that you don't know what the components of a high level swing are.

The components are, whatever squares up the bat barrel to the ball and with power....Seems to me that's what MLB hitters do....You disagree????

quote:

There may be something to the learning theory you directed me to,......

I'm sure Mr.s Landin, Hebert, Proteau, Hall, Dominguez, Cavozos and Dorion appreciate your approval.....

quote:

.......but if you don't know the subject matter you are teaching, the greatest learning methods and theory are useless.

Well, not really.....The learning theory is not useless, just the subject matter theory........

quote:

.......if you hope to teach the fundamentals of baseball to kids, you need to show them how it's done.

Is that only if those fundamentals agree with your definition?

quote:

I suppose if you subscribe to the hypothesis that if you put a million chimps on a million typerwriters, they will eventually write all of the great literary masterpieces, then your notion might be useful, someday, to someone.

I just had to put this up, again....I just did....

Alot of reading, but, well worth the effort if your agenda is to learn about the two teaching methods, block vs. random.........Instant feedback vs. delayed feedback.......


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/conditionsofpractice2.php

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
We have several hitting gurus on this site..

,

cheers

BlueDog - "The components are, whatever squares up the bat barrel to the ball and with power....Seems to me that's what MLB hitters do....You disagree????"

It may be semantics, but your notion of "whatever squares up the bat barrel to the ball" suggests a great deal of randomness in how a batter swings. In fact, the best batters almost without exception perform specific actions in specific ways in their swings. Those actions can be taught, and in fact must be if the kids we're teaching wish to advance to the next level. And, helping them advance is, in my estimation, our most important responsibility in coaching youth.

"I'm sure Mr.s Landin, Hebert, Proteau, Hall, Dominguez, Cavozos and Dorion appreciate your approval....."

Despite your sarcasm, I am looking into these notions with a friend who is an expert in the field of education and teaching methods, and also teaches athletes in his favorite sport.

"Well, not really.....The learning theory is not useless, just the subject matter theory........"

On the contrary, if you don't understand what you're supposed to be teaching, the best you can hope for is that you don't screw the kid up too much.

"Is that only if those fundamentals agree with your definition?"

If you don't understand the fundamentals, you shouldn't be trying to teach. I have spent a lot to time learning from one of the recognized experts in the field, watching hundreds if not thousands of clips of the best hitters, talking with other coaches about hitting and the physics involved and teaching same to kids up to HS level. So, yes I feel that I have a solid grasp of what a high level swing is, and how to teach it. That being said, my knowledge is incomplete, which is why I'm interested in your teaching theory. If I can find a better way to convey this stuff, I will be happy to change my methods. But simply telling them to do "Whatever it takes to consistently square up the bat barrel on the ball and with power.........." is clearly inadequate.

To see what I'm talking about when I say that the hitting motion is highly specific check out the vids and pics at these sites:

http://firstpickclub.com/

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis

BlueDog,
Interesting article. I like the information. The article discusses a couple of aspects that people need to keep in mind before completely throwing away drills. Random training is good for retention and the ability to adjust. Block training is good for short-term performance and acquisition of a new skill. In order for players to learn that new skill they need the block training and a controlled instant feedback environment as well as a randomized game-like application of the skill. Then they should apply that knowledge and practice in a randomized setting. For example, you may have three stations to work on hitting the off-speed pitch that day. 1. A person or machine throwing off-speed. 2. Hitting to opposite field off of a tee or short toss. 3. Having the batter swing only at a fastball when you throw mixed pitches (or only at curves or change-ups) to make sure that they are recognizing the pitch out of the pitchers hand. Following these drills you throw live BP and mix up all the pitches and have the hitter work on putting their best swing on each one in the zone. This would be just one simple way of using all methods to ensure that the student learns the method, reinforces the neural pathways to accomplish the task, and then applies the situation to a game-like situation to aid in comprehension and retention. This is simply proper teaching method in the Physical Education realm.

Ballcoach, it's an interesting subject to kick around......

Coaches should research and do what they feel comfortable doing, I agree....

I just don't like hitting stations and never did.....

The studies are incomplete and not time-proven enough to draw any blanket conclusion either way.....

Bbdoug, whether you are Booth or just associated with him, I now understand where you're coming from....

And, it's nowhere near where I'm coming from....So, post away and maybe someone will find it worthwhile to chat with you......His hitting theory is not my cup of tea....

BlueDog - "Bbdoug, whether you are Booth or just associated with him, I now understand where you're coming from...."

I'm not Booth and I'm not associated with him. His site just has a lot of good clips.

"And, it's nowhere near where I'm coming from....So, post away and maybe someone will find it worthwhile to chat with you......His hitting theory is not my cup of tea...."

So what exactly is your hitting theory? I haven't seen one in your posts. You emphasize teaching method, but haven't really talked about hitting.

quote:

I have spent a lot to time learning from one of the recognized experts in the field...... So, yes I feel that I have a solid grasp of what a high level swing is, and how to teach it.

Bbdoug, you spent time with an expert.....And, a recognized one, at that...That's more impressive than anything I've ever done..........I don't even know an expert.....

BlueDog: Impressive, quoting my favorite psychologist on Motivation. Clark Hull; his formula



SER = ( SHR x D x K x V) - IR - SIR - SOR

Where SER is reaction potential, sHr is habit strength, D is drive, K is incentive motivation, V is stimulus dynamism, IR is reactive inhibition, SiR is conditioned inhibition, and SOR is the oscillation of reaction potential.

Good stuff...

quote:

To see what I'm talking about when I say that the hitting motion is highly specific check out the vids and pics at these sites:

Well, Bbdoug, I did just what you suggested......And, the following quote is what I found at one of these sites.....

"How you go from your stance to the position in the first photo can be accomplished in various ways. You need to figure out which way works for YOU."


Is it possible the hitting motion isn't quite as specific as you lead us to believe?.....Even some random training in the above quote, Bbdoug.......Is he actually saying, I'll guide you, but figure it out for yourself.........Well, I'll be.....

What you do in your stance is almost immaterial to what a good swing is. The swing starts when it starts, not when you're in your stance. So, yes there are almost as many stances as there are batters. The swings, not so many. f'rinstance, where are the batters' hands when the swing actually starts? Look at the best hitters. Their hands are all right by their back shoulders. Barry Bonds has a little timing bob in his hands before he starts his swing, but the swing always starts with his hands by his back shoulder. I think you will find that consistent with all, or nearly all, the top hitters.

Bbdoug, which one of these swings should be taught?

Which swing should a young player emulate?

One uses posture to help get to the ball and swings in a plane with the shoulders.....The other does neither....

Which one?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:



Bbdoug, which one of these swings should be taught?

Which swing should a young player emulate?

One uses posture to help get to the ball and swings in a plane with the shoulders.....The other does neither....

Which one?

I would say neither complete swing is one to emulate or to teach. I would however teach Aaron's torque in the hips and hand torque. I would try to eliminate the slide forward, but if a hitter has success this way, I wouldn't change it. I think Dunn has some flaws in his swing and that causes him to strike out a lot, but I don't think he would change if you tried to. With his homerun output, I don't think the Reds would let anyone try for fear that stat may drop.

BlueDog.....enough with your questions and etc. and start answering how YOU would TEACH.
Time to Cowboy Up or totally credilibity with anyone that played the game.
Throwing pictures and videos out there is fine....as long as YOU quit hiding behind them and never answering a question.

I'm sure your have a valid point to make and possibly a good one so let it out and let everybody consider what you're saying. Use plain English and I'll bet what you have to say has merit.


bbdoug is smoking your butt just in case you haven't figured it out.

quote:

I would however teach Aaron's torque in the hips and hand torque.

Powertoallfields, me and you are on the same page......

Glad to see you posting......

quote:

I think Dunn has some flaws in his swing and that causes him to strike out a lot, but I don't think he would change if you tried to.

Agreed!

BlueDog

Posted on another bb board:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake83
I played high school and JC baseball and I was still hitting off a tee. It teaches hitters how to drive the ball up the middle or opposite field. I bet you HG at the major league level still practices of a tee

HG
You bet I do. Its a great way to refine your swing and work on things, not having to worry about hitting a live object. Tony Gwynn used it every morning in spring training if I'm not mistaken.

HG is a current mlb player.

I heard a story recently about arod during spring training. He hadn't shown up during batting practice on the field for a few days and a reporter asked why. Turns out he had been working on a tee inside because he wanted to work on mechanics.

Now, tell me again why tee hitting is such a bad idea.

Bluedog

I didn't mean to change the subject, I just ran across that post and thought I'd throw it out.

Yes, I teach rotational hitting. The physics make sense and mlb players use it overwhelmingly. There isn't any meaningful controversy anymore.

Now, again, no matter what style of swing you teach, how do you apply the teaching methods you espouse to actually teaching kids how to hit?

Arod could benefit from learning how to hit in the postseason.......

Maybe, a bit more batting practice?......And, a little less tee?

quote:

Yes, I teach rotational hitting. The physics make sense and mlb players use it overwhelmingly.

Most people have their own definition of rotational......I don't have one..........

I teach what I see happening with MLB hitters........Hands loading against the front hip.......Hands torquing the bat handle.......

Aaron, Dunn, Bonds, Williams and all the rest do it, IMO........

Now, you're probably teaching 'em how to rotate by hitting off a tee.......Been there already.........Scrapped the theory......

quote:

Arod could benefit from learning how to hit in the postseason.......

Maybe, a bit more batting practice?......And, a little less tee?

He was AL MVP this year. His post season problems have nothing to do with using a tee.

Last chance, BlueDog, do you or do you not coach, and if you do how do you incorporate your teaching methods into teaching hitting?

Bbdoug, which swing, Dunn or Aaron?.....

BlueDog, I have read more of your recent posts and you are a real student of hitting and have contributed some positive things here. But your A-Rod comment is simply Ludicrous.
He can hit off anything he wants if he continues to hit like that.
Its great that you want to learn from and emulate MLB hitters, but then you say many don't do it right and that their coaches who have helped them get there don't know what they're doing.
Theory is one thing, but credibility and experience are what most people regard.

QUESTION:

Does being a student of hitting give one the ability to teach hitting? I am not quite sure

As for the AROD statement by BD , I agree that it is a truly inane statement

quote:

Does being a student of hitting give one the ability to teach hitting?

I would say no.....

quote:

But your A-Rod comment is simply Ludicrous.

Yes, it was and was meant to be.......Except the lack of hitting in the post season....Arod has not been a good post season hitter......

Ted Williams and Ty Cobb were both great students of hitting and also exhibited great ability to teach hitting. Others, like Eddie Murray, were great students of hitting but only so-so-teachers. Guys like Charley Lau, Sr. weren't great ballplayers but were both outstanding students of the game as well as superb instructors. So historically you see quite a few guys spanning the spectrum of ability vs. teaching prowess. However, you'll find very few poor students of the game who make great hitting instructors.

What do you think about BP when they only pitch from 40-45 feet. It just drives me crazy, as I believe from high school on up the players should be going against live pitchers their own age or older from 60 feet 6 inches, as that is the distance that they are going to see the ball coming in a real game. What about the pros, do they pitch from less than the regulation mound during BP? It is my opinion that all work for timing purposes should come from practicing against pitchers from regulation mound distances.

Also, do you believe in swinging up, down, or through a baseball, as everyone seems to have an opinion?

quote:

Originally posted by 60 feet 6 inches.....:
What do you think about BP when they only pitch from 40-45 feet. It just drives me crazy, as I believe from high school on up the players should be going against live pitchers their own age or older from 60 feet 6 inches, as that is the distance that they are going to see the ball coming in a real game. What about the pros, do they pitch from less than the regulation mound during BP? It is my opinion that all work for timing purposes should come from practicing against pitchers from regulation mound distances.

Also, do you believe in swinging up, down, or through a baseball, as everyone seems to have an opinion?

College and Pro players rarely take BP from 60'6". They would have to hire MLB Pitchers to throw BP to simulate the speed. They throw shorter to keep the bats quick. Timing has nothing to do with the distance, it has to do with concentration and hand eye coordination. That's why good hitters can hit change-ups and curves. Just my 2 cents worth.

Speaking as a 61yo coach who has been known to throw BP, I would not be able to do it from the mound at the speeds the kids are going to see, and my arm would never take the punishment. I do it from a shorter distance behind an L screen. Seems to work out.

I try to limit my pitch count to 300 a day and if that was from 60'6" rather than 45' I would be finished as a BP pitcher. I think it is important to get an elevated platfrom for downward plane and to protect infield grass. My 65 mph heater from 45' must be equivalent to 85 mph??

TR does being old mean you have experience? watch those OLD sayings you have.

swingbuilder


In my case age = experience----

Are all the gurus on here qualified to teach hitting?


You tell me---I am sure in their minds they are qualified

TRhit, you like to use the word "guru" alot, I see.....

If all these students of hitting theory thought of themselves as gurus, do you really think they would spend this much time and effort in discussing hitting on this board as they do?.....

The truth is, those who think of themselves as hitting gurus don't post much on here, or at all.....

They sit on their thrones and talk about us on their own boards trying to convince their followers that we should not be listened to........They claim they have science on their side and, you know, all that stuff.....

Bluedog

I did not title this thread

The Gurus have disciples who spout their themes, many of whom are visiting sites such as this to spread the "gospel" using all the "catchwords" to impress people


The Gurus , and I consider you one of them, think their way is the only way and give no background for their being the "expert".


I am no expert but I known darn well that all the catchwords will not be understood by kids being taught


I call it all cyber jibberish---hitting as well as pitching is to taught one on one not on a web site

TR HIT...age does not quantify that you can teach what you have experienced nor does it mean you experienced anything of value.

swinuilder


Read what I posted---I said in my case age=experience---I cannot speak for others

And in my case I have experienced plenty of things of value---like learning to know that so called cyber instructors in most cases just regurgitate what they have read or heard elsewhere

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_3_61/ai_82472895

Joe DiMaggio, the great Yankee Clipper, coached the Yankee hitters during the spring at their St. Petersburg, Florida training camp.

"We never saw him," Skowron said. "He was always with Marilyn in the batting cage under the left field stands."

Was he teaching Marilyn how to hit?

"I don't know," Skowron replied. "We never saw him."

Wally Moses, a dedicated baseball lifer, also had a stretch tutoring the Yankee hitters.

"He gave me some good advice," Skowron said. "He told me to pick up my left heel and then stride."

The right-handed hitting Skowron, who had exceptional power to the opposite field, said manager Casey Stengel helped him the most.

"He said with runners at first, or first and second, if I didn't hit to right field he was going to send me back to the minors."

OLDSLUGGER


Very interesting item

Interesting?...Yes, but, it's no secret there is no teaching at the MLB level.....Hitting instructor jobs in MLB are good old boy networking, like politics, and nothing more....

TRhit, if you want to discuss hitting, pros and cons of teaching it, or ability or lack thereof of teaching it, you need to focus on the lower levels of baseball.....

Bluedog

My concern is people like you using terms that kids and parents do not undertsand

Have you taught hitting at the MajorLeague level?--If not than how can you judge/--For all we know you have applied for a MLB hitting job a number of times and been turned down---you have never even taught us who you instruct---come to the real world not the cyber world

quote:

Have you taught hitting at the MajorLeague level?

Seems as though nobody has.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Have you taught hitting at the MajorLeague level?

Seems as though nobody has.....

Bingo, if you get there, other than being one of those speed guys(one tool) banjo hitters, you already know how to hit.

Many an "expert" have said hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports. What makes somebody who never came close to doing it a GURU ? What even prompts somebody to even market themselves as a hitting Guru ? I can't.

But I can say that you can try to help, but overloading kids with linear/rotational theories, rear barrel, and all this other technical jibberish is really based on interpretation of what everyone sees from the gifted ones, but............

If they can't physically do it, how long you gonna beat a dead horse, and their parents $$?

Hitter are born with a gift, PERIOD

quote:

Hitters are born with a gift, PERIOD

Hitters maybe born with the gift. It does however take something or someone to bring out that gift.

I have seen many big league hitters who were not good hitters when they were young. They spent many hours working on becoming better.

There is no substitute for bat speed and hand eye coordination. Athlete's get better with rep's. Its easier for them to be taught adjustments and apply them. They don't always do but the % are in your favor.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Hitters maybe born with the gift. It does however take something or someone to bring out that gift.

I have seen many big league hitters who were not good hitters when they were young. They spent many hours working on becoming better.

There is no substitute for bat speed and hand eye coordination. Athlete's get better with rep's. Its easier for them to be taught adjustments and apply them. They don't always do but the % are in your favor.

Yep!

quote:

The key is the "glutes"......The lower back and the abs are controlled by the glute muscles........This is the core of the body......This is the balance point of the body......This core keeps the spine in good order which carries nerve impulses to the rest of the body...If this core is weak, the whole body is weak........

Abdominal musculature stabilizes and allows motion. Other muscles (movements to be exact) cannot happen efficiently without this stabilization.
The gluteus complex is both stabilizer and joint actioner depending on the movement.
They never control the abdominals nor the lumbar musculatures which have limited range of motions influences.