Attrition in one D-3 College Program

JCG posted:

Proud-D3-Parent posted:

SluggerDad posted:

 

I mean here in California, where there are only 9 D3 programs total -- only 8 of them at all competitive,  and only 3 or 4 of them regularly "nationally ranked"   

ADVICE from a D3 Parent whose son is entering his senior season with three awesome years of playing the sport he loves already behind him:  Keep your kids focused on the long-term goal. Use their baseball talents as a tool get them into the best academic college possible, rather than focusing on using college as a way to play baseball. If you keep the focus on STUDENT-athlete, there's a better chance of finding the right "fit" for a memorable college baseball experience. Most importantly, they'll walk away with a great education, a host of networking possibilities for being more well-rounded, wonderful memories, and hopefully a really great career! 

    **    --- Enjoyed SluggerDad's "only 8 of them at all competitive..." remark.  Seriously, I'm not at all offended  - really   Our D3 also has three seniors this year, and all three have played more innings than almost all their counterparts at other universities. All three have been on the conference leaderboards. And... each will walk away with a degree from a school ranked #1 in the World. What more could one ask for? Find the right fit for your kids, keeping them focused on the long-term!

                                               Signed,

                                               -- Parent from that 9th program ("competitive" is a relative term)

Wish you all the best this baseball season! It's going to be fun!

Good luck to your son this season, and congrats on that degree. I have seen his team play recently and was really impressed with their game.  BTW if you search the team's name here you'll find some threads on the program, all very positive, and another board participant who is a fellow parent of a player.

But the way, my son, who played with the would be D-2 falsely parading as a D-3  in that conference for a year actually told me he admired the guys on what I called the "non-competitive"  program in the conference  -- even though he believed that they could not beat the JV squad at his school, let alone the varsity squad.

 He said about them,   "they just go out and play, and play for the love of the game.  They know they are not going to win the conference or make the College World Series.  They've got nothing to prove.  They may not be as talented.  But they play hard. Have fun.  I sometimes wish I had gone to a school like that. "  

At his school if you don't win the conference, the year is a complete bust.  If you win the conference but go two and out in the regional,  you are bitterly disappointed.  

If you make the world series but don't advance far,  the season is good, but not great.  

That means a LOT of pressure to achieve.  The constant pressure  explains why the program is run the way it is and why they churn through so many good players.  

They are constantly looking for the "it" players who will bring home the gold.  And everybody who steps on the field for them, beginning in the fall,  knows it.  If you dominate in that competition, that's great.

But there is no prize whatsoever for being just a good college baseball player.   

In fairness to the coaches, who are actually great guys, but just guys determined to win,  they make this clear to the players they recruit.  

But again, they recruit LOTS of VERY GOOD players.  mostly from California, but also up and down the west coast and also Hawaii.  

Because so many California players want to stay and play in California, and because there aren't that many opportunities, and because the school is not impossible to get into, and because the baseball program is highly accomplished, many are willing to give it at try, despite the odds. 

 My son, for example,  could have gone to 4 different programs, 3 of them out of State, but chose to stay in California, cause like most California baseball kids, he LOVES California.

Here's a (potentially naïve/pessimistic) question. For strong/large D3 baseball programs with a JV team at private schools that are associated with "average or lower" academics (but might still be quite expensive), does anyone think that the coach and/or athletic director actively encourages (or at least does not actively discourage) huge teams to get more full-time, paying students in the door? I expect even if half or more leave the baseball program, many of those former JV players might stay at the school and thus keep paying tuition, etc.

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...they play some darn good baseball.

Batty67 posted:

Here's a (potentially naïve/pessimistic) question. For strong/large D3 baseball programs with a JV team at private schools that are associated with "average or lower" academics (but might still be quite expensive), does anyone think that the coach and/or athletic director actively encourages (or at least does not actively discourage) huge teams to get more full-time, paying students in the door? I expect even if half or more leave the baseball program, many of those former JV players might stay at the school and thus keep paying tuition, etc.

They absolutely use baseball (and other sports) as a tool to increase enrollment and generate more tuition income.  No question about it, and the schools with JV programs are the worst offenders.

Batty67 posted:

Here's a (potentially naïve/pessimistic) question. For strong/large D3 baseball programs with a JV team at private schools that are associated with "average or lower" academics (but might still be quite expensive), does anyone think that the coach and/or athletic director actively encourages (or at least does not actively discourage) huge teams to get more full-time, paying students in the door? I expect even if half or more leave the baseball program, many of those former JV players might stay at the school and thus keep paying tuition, etc.

I think there are "convergent interests" here as they say in bargaining theory.  The coaches want to look at LOTS of players and see them compete. The school wants paying students.  D3 schools all use athletics as a student recruitment tool.   JV teams don't add a lot of cost, but it enables coaches to take a look for at least a year at more players.  

Some kids at my son's school transferred out after freshman year on JV, definitely.  Others who didn't make either team, started looking elsewhere right away.    Some have stayed at the school.  Even a fair number of varsity players who are left by the wayside  transfer or just quit and stay and finish school there  by the way. 

 I mean while it isn't a nationally elite school,  academically speaking, but it is very good school, with strong regional rankings, if you care about that sort of thing.  It's at least as strong academically and probably stronger than the three other schools my son was pursued by (out of state). 

57special posted:

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...the play some darn good baseball.

This... And there are a lot of really good D2 academic schools as well (UCSD, Cal Poly Pomona etc.)

Buzzard05 posted:

I actually tried to take a look at the site and got security errors using IE, Firefox, and Chrome.

Can you send me a screenprint?

Regards.

57special posted:

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...the play some darn good baseball.

Some D2's here in California are run almost exactly the same way ... but without the JV.  Some even encourage frosh to co-enroll in a nearby JC.  One coach in particular, who was discussed the possibility of his joining the program with my son , was up front.  "If you come, you probably won't see the field until Junior year.  But what we would like you to do is co-enroll in the nearby JC and play there for your first two years."  My son asked, "and would that guarantee me a spot junior year."  Coach replied,  "there are not guarantees, but if...."  Son decided he didn't want to do that and the conversations ended there. 

Many private D3’s are struggling financially. The lure of a little need money and baseball (or other sports) helps raise enrollment and revenue. Even if a majority of those lured have little or no chance of ever seeing the field/court.

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Buzzard05 posted:

I actually tried to take a look at the site and got security errors using IE, Firefox, and Chrome.

Can you send me a screenprint?

 

Regards.

Buzzard05,

Can you use the Need Help feature?  It will help us catalog all issues.

Regards

FriarFred posted:

57special posted:

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...the play some darn good baseball.

This... And there are a lot of really good D2 academic schools as well (UCSD, Cal Poly Pomona etc.)

Absolutely. UBC is a NAIA school that has world class academics, though they aren't exactly a typical NAIA school.

I used to coach with a guy who used to play D2 at MN State Mankato. He'd say that they would beat U of MN 6 times out of 10 in exhibitions back when he played, though I don't think that's the case now.

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Buzzard05 posted:

I actually tried to take a look at the site and got security errors using IE, Firefox, and Chrome.

Can you send me a screenprint?

 

Regards.

I actually went back to try to get the screen and was able to start the trial.  It was a "signed certificate" error the first time on all three browsers.  I didn't make any changes to my browsers between this time, and the first time I tried to access the site.  I like the player breakdown by position screen...that is really nice.

Batty67 posted:

Here's a (potentially naïve/pessimistic) question. For strong/large D3 baseball programs with a JV team at private schools that are associated with "average or lower" academics (but might still be quite expensive), does anyone think that the coach and/or athletic director actively encourages (or at least does not actively discourage) huge teams to get more full-time, paying students in the door? I expect even if half or more leave the baseball program, many of those former JV players might stay at the school and thus keep paying tuition, etc.

1000% yes.  I talk to people high up in finance at colleges across the country as part of my work.  Sports programs are looked at as a vehicle to increase/maintain enrollment at a large % of colleges across levels, let alone D3.  Certainly, these goals are communicated to the athletic department.  A JV program is low hanging fruit.  They will also typically keep JV costs to a minimum... limited games and travel.   Instant tuition boost.

RJM posted:

Many private D3’s are struggling financially. The lure of a little need money and baseball (or other sports) helps raise enrollment and revenue. Even if a majority of those lured have little or no chance of ever seeing the field/court.

We learned from my younger son's future college lacrosse coach that some schools, in order to boost enrollment of a specific gender, will create JV teams and/or increase the varsity roster size for certain sports to fill them with kids who will never see the field...but will pay four years of tuition to just be on the team.

FriarFred posted:

57special posted:

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...the play some darn good baseball.

This... And there are a lot of really good D2 academic schools as well (UCSD, Cal Poly Pomona etc.)

I'm not sure about this. Obviously there are a few, like the schools you mentioned, but there are probably only a small handful of D2s with strong academics. 

Thanks for the (expected) responses about very large D3 baseball programs with JV teams. My son went to a camp of a pretty well recognized in-state D3 program that fits this model, had a great day, and the coach was very vocal about wanting him to attend. My son also had very solid HS grades and SAT scores, and they offered a lot of financial aid. I was very happy that my son wanted nothing to do with it.

PABaseball posted:

FriarFred posted:

57special posted:

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...the play some darn good baseball.

This... And there are a lot of really good D2 academic schools as well (UCSD, Cal Poly Pomona etc.)

I'm not sure about this. Obviously there are a few, like the schools you mentioned, but there are probably only a small handful of D2s with strong academics. 

I guess it depends on how you define strong academics. For example, in CA one of the two D2 conferences is the CCAA. The 12 baseball schools include UCSD (for now) and Cal Poly Pomona, as already mentioned, as well as 10 other Cal State U's.  While nobody is going to mistake any of them for Stanford or Cal, if your kid attends public schools where mine did, Sonoma County, chances are that more than half of his teachers, counselors, and administrators are Sonoma State or Chico State grads, both of which are usually near the top of the baseball standings.  Just anecdotal of course, but a fellow parent on my son's baseball team attended one of those schools and went on to be president of a local bank by the time he was 40, and a guy I coached Little League with was a grad who retired rich af before he was 50.  So, like I said, they are not Stanford or Cal, but relatively affordable schools where smart kids can have good outcomes if they apply themselves.

Buzzard05 posted:

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

Buzzard05 posted:

I actually tried to take a look at the site and got security errors using IE, Firefox, and Chrome.

Can you send me a screenprint?

 

Regards.

I actually went back to try to get the screen and was able to start the trial.  It was a "signed certificate" error the first time on all three browsers.  I didn't make any changes to my browsers between this time, and the first time I tried to access the site.  I like the player breakdown by position screen...that is really nice.

You can also drill down to the school roster for the specific year.  Team Insight page provides player attrition, MLB, transfer (build vs buy). Summer internship info (Collegiate Summer League Participation).   If you look at the 2017, is will show you Roster size (Team Website vs EADA). EADA is what is reported to the department of education.  This can be important, a good example: if you look at Coastal Carolina (2016), there website has 29 players, but they reported ~37.  What happened the 8 players. I knew of 2 that were from my area, 1 had to get Tommy John and was playing the following year in JUCO in NJ. There is also a hyperlink to the specific school roster.    We are in the process of developing some additional help text.

JCG posted:

PABaseball posted:

FriarFred posted:

57special posted:

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...the play some darn good baseball.

This... And there are a lot of really good D2 academic schools as well (UCSD, Cal Poly Pomona etc.)

I'm not sure about this. Obviously there are a few, like the schools you mentioned, but there are probably only a small handful of D2s with strong academics. 

I guess it depends on how you define strong academics. For example, in CA one of the two D2 conferences is the CCAA. The 12 baseball schools include UCSD (for now) and Cal Poly Pomona, as already mentioned, as well as 10 other Cal State U's.  While nobody is going to mistake any of them for Stanford or Cal, if your kid attends public schools where mine did, Sonoma County, chances are that more than half of his teachers, counselors, and administrators are Sonoma State or Chico State grads, both of which are usually near the top of the baseball standings.  Just anecdotal of course, but a fellow parent on my son's baseball team attended one of those schools and went on to be president of a local bank by the time he was 40, and a guy I coached Little League with was a grad who retired rich af before he was 50.  So, like I said, they are not Stanford or Cal, but relatively affordable schools where smart kids can have good outcomes if they apply themselves.

But especially those Cal State D2 campuses really tend to focus heavily in their recruitment on JC transfers and D1 drop downs.  Can't speak for ALL of them, but we had serious flirtation with two of them.   And as I mentioned,   we had extensive conversations with one of them.  The coach  basically told him that they if he were to come, they would like him to co-enroll in a nearby JC for his freshman and sophomore years and play there and not expect to see the field on their team until Junior year.   And I gathered from him that this is pretty much standard operating procedure for him with respect to incoming frosh. 

JCG posted:

PABaseball posted:

FriarFred posted:

57special posted:

Sure, that's part of it. I wonder why players who are going to D3's with lesser academics don't just go to a D2, or NAIA, who can offer money. Not that it is easy to get on with a competitive D2...the play some darn good baseball.

This... And there are a lot of really good D2 academic schools as well (UCSD, Cal Poly Pomona etc.)

I'm not sure about this. Obviously there are a few, like the schools you mentioned, but there are probably only a small handful of D2s with strong academics. 

I guess it depends on how you define strong academics. For example, in CA one of the two D2 conferences is the CCAA. The 12 baseball schools include UCSD (for now) and Cal Poly Pomona, as already mentioned, as well as 10 other Cal State U's.  While nobody is going to mistake any of them for Stanford or Cal, if your kid attends public schools where mine did, Sonoma County, chances are that more than half of his teachers, counselors, and administrators are Sonoma State or Chico State grads, both of which are usually near the top of the baseball standings.  Just anecdotal of course, but a fellow parent on my son's baseball team attended one of those schools and went on to be president of a local bank by the time he was 40, and a guy I coached Little League with was a grad who retired rich af before he was 50.  So, like I said, they are not Stanford or Cal, but relatively affordable schools where smart kids can have good outcomes if they apply themselves.

The UC and CSU systems are as good as it gets for public schools. Many of those are in the handful I would consider to have good academics. There are some fine schools, especially in CA, but for the most part there are very very few strong academic D2 schools. I'm not saying they're joke schools by any means, but I don't think many people would consider most to be academic strongholds. Many are easy to get into and don't have notable academic programs or departments. 

Either way, you can be successful wherever you go; Ivy League, JUCO, no college, it's what you make of your situation. I completely agree with you there. 

Proud-D3-Parent posted:

SluggerDad posted:

 

I mean here in California, where there are only 9 D3 programs total -- only 8 of them at all competitive,  and only 3 or 4 of them regularly "nationally ranked"   

ADVICE from a D3 Parent whose son is entering his senior season with three awesome years of playing the sport he loves already behind him:  Keep your kids focused on the long-term goal. Use their baseball talents as a tool get them into the best academic college possible, rather than focusing on using college as a way to play baseball. If you keep the focus on STUDENT-athlete, there's a better chance of finding the right "fit" for a memorable college baseball experience. Most importantly, they'll walk away with a great education, a host of networking possibilities for being more well-rounded, wonderful memories, and hopefully a really great career! 

    **    --- Enjoyed SluggerDad's "only 8 of them at all competitive..." remark.  Seriously, I'm not at all offended  - really   Our D3 also has three seniors this year, and all three have played more innings than almost all their counterparts at other universities. All three have been on the conference leaderboards. And... each will walk away with a degree from a school ranked #1 in the World. What more could one ask for? Find the right fit for your kids, keeping them focused on the long-term!

                                               Signed,

                                               -- Parent from that 9th program ("competitive" is a relative term)

Wish you all the best this baseball season! It's going to be fun!

Cha-ching!! This above absolutely nails it. We stressed the exact same to our son, "Use their baseball talents as a tool get them into the best academic college possible, rather than focusing on using college as a way to play baseball", albeit to a selection of HA school a couple notches below Proud D-#'s son's, - result, four outstanding years of competitive baseball and a great college experience.  Another important consideration was "fit" completely putting aside baseball, I'd like to think to think many kids have a good internal compass on this - they know it when they visit it.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

If you think that's bad, check out some NAIA schools.  There's one near me that will have 90-ish in the fall, knowing that by Spring, that number will be down to 45-50 and they will put half of the on the JV team.  If you drive by the field in the fall, there are so many kids, you'd think it was a football practice lol

I know the team you are talking about. I know at least one player that went there.