Available Money

PABaseball posted:

After reading through one of the now closed threads I still have a few questions as to how schools manage scholarship money. 

1). Do players become officially enrolled in the school when they register for classes and put down a deposit? Or is it when they actually set foot on campus? Basically when is their scholarship money put towards tuition? 

2). I know over committing happens and cuts are a part of baseball. But when 18-20 sign NLIs and the draft doesn't go according to plan isn't the school violating rules at this point? They have money committed beyond the 11.7. Some of these guys decide they're not signing in early July. That only gives the university a month and change before the students return for school. 

3). I understand how rare this is but I'm sure it has happened. What happens if the returning players who were cut choose to remain at the school? They keep their money and take up the roster spot if I'm correct. NLI guys go? Let's say this is August 1. Kids now have 2 weeks to find a new school? Tuition still needs to get paid for.  

I have asked a few people and received a bunch of different answers so I'm genuinely curious. Thanks 

 

 

Every situation is a bit different

1.)  Let's say you are past the commit phase, you know you amounts they are providing and the amounts you are providing.  You are past the OV and you have signed your NLI if needed.   The draft is past and you did not take the money so you are going to school.  You should get your acceptance letter and instructions on an adviser, your student id etc. they will help you with class selection that fits the your schedule. 

The scholarship money could be split into each semester or it could be no scholarship money the first semester and all the second... in case you don't make it through the fall.  You are enrolled when you attend the first class, point of no return.

2.)  if the school is over committed, they usually  will lose anywhere from 2-8 due  to grades,  homesick, quit on their own, getting cut due to any reason other than performance.  coach may say "you know and I know you came in as a late sign" I don't have room, but I have called this Juco and you can go there for free.  good luck"

Or " I don't think you are going to play so I will help you find a school and a scholarship at that school "

3.) The returning player that gets cut can still finish the current semester.  You seem to think that the scholarship money is really good, it's not... most kids are paying in some fashion. the exceptions are the private schools that have a ton of FA. Vandy, Duke, Stanford  etc... if you get cut , you are responsible for tuition after the semester you are in.   sometimes schools help out. they have many ways of paying that you are not ware of.  For instance , my 2013 was at a D1 and after his 4 years of ball were over he lacked a semester due to scheduling and what not, so even though he could not play any longer, the coach found him a scholarship from an alumni ..... his playing days were over, but they wanted to make sure he finished and got someone to help him out.

You need to  ask the coach these questions ... levels are different form JUCO , D3 D2 D1 NAIA

I think you you are thinking that the player must have more "rights"  they don't , it's set up for the school and  NCAA 

If you PM me with specifics I can give specific advice to each situation , or point you to the right person.  Generalities are another matter

Once a player attends one class after enrolling as a full-time student, he is considered officially enrolled as far as NCAA transfer rules go and as far as becoming a "counter" toward the scholarship and roster limits. Summer school before freshman year doesn't count. Basically, it's day one of the fall semester. That's when the school needs to be within the 11.7 scholarship limit and the 28 scholarship athlete limit.

The shorter draft signing window decreed by MLB's most recent collective bargaining window gives college coaches a lot more flexibility in reacting to the draft.

At the front end of the pipeline, coaches now know in early July which of their recruits will go pro. When my son was a freshman, the MLB signing deadline wasn't until mid-August. One of his new teammates, who had been drafted in the middle-rounds after telling every MLB team he was definitely going to college, attended summer school with him all summer. When he went home for the short break between summer school and the fall semester, the team that had drafted him offered him 4th round money. He took it, never went back to college and is in MLB now. His departure left the college coach with an unused hefty scholarship and no time to find a suitable place to invest that money.

At the back end of the pipeline, coaches now also know in early July which of the previous year's juniors and draft-eligible sophomores have gone pro. Returning players typically learn their status for the coming year at the end-of-season conference with their coach. If they're not part of next year's plan, they know it before they go home in May or June.

If coaches find themselves in an over-booked situation, they now have more than a month to "encourage" players outside the margins to pursue options more likely to serve their happiness. It does happen, but it happens less often than you might think, partly because coaches' livelihoods depend on their ability to manage the draft risk, and partly because so many players agree to funding packages that include no or minimal athletic money. There's a lot more merit and need-based money out there than athletic scholarship money. We seldom know the details of anyone else's deal, but when we do hear them, it's often surprising to hear how little baseball money some outstanding players actually receive.  

As far as getting down to the 35 player roster limit, schools don't have to post their official squad list until a few days before the season starts in February. That means D1 schools can carry 40+ players all through fall practice. In that situation, the 28 scholarship counters are safe because their roster spots can't be given to anyone else, but the other 10 or 15 players go through the fall semester knowing they're competing for the remaining seven roster spots. Their situation is more precarious from a baseball perspective, but more secure from an education perspective because quitting or getting cut doesn't affect their financial ability to remain at school.

Regardless of the components of a player's aid package, the bursar's office at the school will require payment or firm commitments for the full cost of the player's tuition and fees before the semester starts.

Does this help?

Swampboy.

Since it seems everyone plays their cards close to their chests regarding how much (if any) athletic aid they are receiving, I would venture to guess a few more than 15 guys may think they are in the "competing for those roster spots" category.

From what I have learned on this site from folks who post from a position of knowledge, only about 50 D1 programs are fully funded (11.7 funded scholarships). And no program is obligated to break their scholarships up to have 28 counters, they could decide to have 15 counters and everyone else is funding their educations without athletic aid. I don't know how often that happens, but I think it's in the realm of possibility.

For the majority of schools that are not fully funded, they could run the spectrum of 2-3 scholarships to split up to 9 or 10. So let's say there is a D1 school with 3 scholarships, max amount of counters on that team would be 12.

I heard that Utah Valley has like 4 scholarships. I spoke with a coach at Villanova last summer and he said they had 7. Both D1s, but a huge difference in the number of guys who are competing for the unfunded roster spots. I think Coastal Carolina was a big deal when they won the CWS as well because they did it with so few scholarships.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a strong likelihood there may not be 28 counters on a D1 roster.

GaryMe, 

I think you're right.

The examples in the recently closed thread were all elite programs that are probably fully funded. Partially funded programs have different math challenges, such as whether to spread the scholarship money evenly across year groups or whether to concentrate it in one or two year groups to create a chance to be competitive in their conference for a couple years.

Thanks guys. Just asking as I've heard stories of how things go wrong. I think parents and players need to do their homework a little better.

But two interesting things I wonder if a coach considers

I guess an incoming player can say no when he receives the "we're overbooked" call from coach in the summer. Sure it would end up with him in the doghouse and highly unlikely to ever step on the field but until they figured out a proper transfer situation he could remain at the school. Coach has to go to the next on the list

Additionally a Sr with a good FA package and a 25% scholarship mighty be more likely to remain at the school as a non athlete rather than transfer that late in the game. 

But these guys know how to deal with it. They always have 35 by opening day 

PABaseball, here is what I would advise my son:

If he was going to be a returning player coming back for his senior year, not at a P5 school and had been receiving athletic aid up to that point, before he left for his summer break after his Junior season I would hope (expect) that his coach sat him down and had a talk with him to allow the family/player to do a little financial planning if the athletic scholarship $$$ dried up. At that point the concern would be more about "Do you see me on the roster next year as a Sr?" I think an undrafted rising senior is likely to return for his final year (assuming no red shirt year) in order to graduate and finish what he started. That's just my take and what I would advise my kid to do.

Personally, I won't encourage my son to go to a school (any school) that we as a family cannot afford without athletic aid. Fortunately, we planned well and can afford pretty much anything out there, but like everyone else we would love for someone else to pay for his college and use that $$$ to go on a nation-wide hunt for the ultimate hamburger. Also, it sure makes life a lot sweeter when you have that athletic aid and roster spot that goes with it.

For instance, my 2018 committed to Vanderbilt in 2016.   Since he was in the first round of recruits for that class and was recruited by 10 top 25 schools  we kinda knew what to ask for and what the expectations were.  He had a couple of chances at the 2018 draft , but it was just not enough to sign and miss Vandy.  So he/they decided that instead of a few innings of summer ball he should go ahead  and enrolled early and take a summer class to lighten the load next spring and to be able to workout on campus for 10 weeks prior to this coming fall.   I paid for this class as it is not part of his scholarship .   Now he is also a draft eligible soph and the coaching staff is well aware that he could leave after two seasons but I can assure you they do not count on him being there after three seasons.   So we know going in that this is a 2-3 year deal....and after pro ball is over we know how he will come back and finish the degree.  Once you get into the meat conversations it will all pan out. 

Now my 2013 went Juco then D1. his jr. season they did not have money for him so I paid it. They did say that if he does well they would give him money for the sr season and they did. and like I said earlier they gave him money after he was done with baseball.  of course if was not baseball money from the school .

To clear up a few things, athletic aid does not guarantee you anything, you can get cut like a walk on or any other player.  P5 schools do not have many sr's if any.... because they have been told up front .... there are a few exceptions.  mid majors have plenty of sr's and they would rather have a sr any day over a freshman.  Not so much at P5 schools due to talent level being higher.  basically for a mid major to compete with SEC teams they have to retain sr's for the exp. and maturity factor .... 

Coaches look at their athletic money, FA money and academic money and then they game plan..... you might get FA one year and athletic the next year....

and that is a giant leap of faith...

GaryMe posted:

and that is a giant leap of faith...

what's a leap of faith ?

PABaseball posted:

After reading through one of the now closed threads I still have a few questions as to how schools manage scholarship money. 

1). Do players become officially enrolled in the school when they register for classes and put down a deposit? Or is it when they actually set foot on campus? Basically when is their scholarship money put towards tuition? 

2). I know over committing happens and cuts are a part of baseball. But when 18-20 sign NLIs and the draft doesn't go according to plan isn't the school violating rules at this point? They have money committed beyond the 11.7. Some of these guys decide they're not signing in early July. That only gives the university a month and change before the students return for school. 

3). I understand how rare this is but I'm sure it has happened. What happens if the returning players who were cut choose to remain at the school? They keep their money and take up the roster spot if I'm correct. NLI guys go? Let's say this is August 1. Kids now have 2 weeks to find a new school? Tuition still needs to get paid for.  

I have asked a few people and received a bunch of different answers so I'm genuinely curious. Thanks 

 

 

Son’s friend and teammate was committed with NLI signed to a pretty competitive program. He was a draft possibly. So were some of the Jr’s at college. There were too many left after the draft. He was given the options to stay and never see the field or be released from NLI. What do you think he chose?