Back Elbow...

Can you show me a big leaguer who does it? Also, with the back elbow down a hitter looses precious momentum. Hitters rotate with the elbow somewhat up and not down. BAD ADVICE, in my opinion.

I thought so, too. What shocked me even more than the bad advice was where it came from. I received this instruction at the University of Tennessee during a showcase camp.

Daren could be talking about the L.L. cue of Keep the elbow up. A relaxed elbow will move better in the start of the swing than a rigid elbow thats way above the shoulder. Parallel elbows can be beneficial. Jeter has somewhat parallel elbows, even though he holds his bat high. Check closely at the stance of many MLB'ers and you will see somewhat parallel elbows. The ones who aren't, will start to bring their elbows and hands in a better launching position as they are loading. Because its only in stance, adjustments can be made to have an efficient swing regardless of where the elbow is. The key with a young hitter is, Will it slow him down if his hands, elbows, arms are to far back or up? Each case is certainly different.

Really?....So I take it you know the guys at UT....Which Coach(es) do you know Blue?

I'll bet they sure could use your help huh?

Why did you delete your "none of them" post Blue?

I thought it was.....I thought if you knew them you would be more qualified to critique what was being taught at UT....But since I feel quite confident you were not at the camp to observe how or what Mr. Vaught was taught or not taught, I found it interesting you made the comment that you did....

Well jump in and help Mr. Vaught, Blue.

He came here for advice not to hear people ragging on the level of instruction he received.

What should Mr. Vaught do Blue?....Help him....

Bluedog Quote: From pages (15) of Hitting Forum entitled "Assess this Statement"

"My intent for discussing hitting here is for a parent or player to read what I have to say and decide for themselves if what I say makes sense to them...."



I just wanted to let everyone know that this is why Bluedog comes to this site and "discuss" hitting.

See I'm standing up for you Blue.

"Stay away from College camps..... "

Come To The Degoba System .... Only there can you learn to hit!...right Yoda?

Daron Vaught:

Especially among young hitters, the high elbow technique can lead them into a long, looping swing. This will leave you much more exposed to off-speed pitches. Yes, keeping your elbow lower will help you with your "palm up/palm down" position so that you can keep your bat flatter through the hitting zone. Your swing can be shorter from trigger to contact, with full acceleration at and through contact for maximum power.

You would not actually have your forearms parallel. Since both hands are on the bat, the lines of the forearms must intersect no matter where you put your elbows. But keeping your back elbow lower will help most youth hitters, including HS players.

Many MLB hitters use a high elbow approach for a few reasons. First, they do not have to guard against the high strike, as you must in HS play. Second, they are paid to hit HR's, whereas in HS play HR's play a much lesser role and most fly balls are outs. Third, and this is important to understand, most MLB guys are gifted athletes who can still generate sufficient bat speed to have a bit longer swing and still hit the best pitching in the world. Maybe you will make it to MLB some day, but most HS guys will be lucky to play in college. Most youth players just want to hit consistently at a level where a .300 hitter is just average, not exceptional.

As for good advice, look into some of Dave Hudgins' materials. He is a guy with real credentials and what he teaches works. He is not some jerk hanging out on a web site just to take pleasure in seeing how many folks' blood pressure he can raise. One of Hudgins' books directly discusses the "get your elbow up" instruction under the chapter entitled, "The Worst Advice I Have Ever Heard". This, mind you, from the guy who shepherded Mark McGuire to stardom even before the andro or whatever else got involved.

Hudgins explains that the high elbow approach is sound in theory because it is aimed at hitting the top of the ball. But he further explains how it tends to lead into a long swing that is counterproductive and thus, he recommends young players stay away from it.

We made this adjustment with my son at a young age, and later with his entire travel team. Certain people will no doubt chime in here in a moment and ridicule Hudgins' advice. I'll just tell you, it works in real life. More frequent quality contact, more power, better ability to handle off speed pitches.

It's interesting that Dave Hudgens has come up in this conversation. I know Dave very well. He is a very good guy and an even better hitting instructor along with his son Jordan. Both have worked extensively with my youngest son, whose back elbow is up, by the way. He has come about this naturally, as I always encouraged a more relaxed back elbow. But Dave has not changed my son's elbow position at all. I have talked with Dave at length about many of Blue Dog's ideas and I am sure that most of you might be surprised at how much agreement there is between the two, although the terminology is at times different. But, the fact is, despite the demeanor, much of what Blue Dog offers is very sound. The better part is that it invokes thought, which is always a good thing.

And in regard to demeanor, those taking shots ought to look a little at themselves. Even if they don't like Blue Dog's approach, responding in kind does not resolve the issue. It only makes it a lot more entertaining here than would otherwise be the case.

It sounds like the coaches are teaching to vertically stack in a rotational system. Where you start doesn't matter a whole lot. The rotational hitter often starts totally relaxed and sort of upright. The elbow (and shoulders) at load are what is important, not so much set up. This is taught to keep tension off all the muscles groups so they can fire in at initiation.

The elbow does go up in many major league swings. More importantly there is a tilt of the shoulders to the strike zone. This creates a shorter path and is the line for bat entry. The shoulders trade planes in the swing and the back shoulder goes down as the front shoulder goes up.

Don't confuse where the hitter starts with where the hitter is at load. Made that mistake before.

I can't claim to know Hudgins but the more we used his materials, the better the results. As I said above, even while decrying the "high back elbow" advice he stated that he understood and even agreed with the reasoning behind it. His concern was with how most kids ended up falling into bad habits because of it. I have to say I have seen a lot of that first hand.

Thus, it would be a mark of good coaching if he did not mess with a kid who was using the high elbow approach and having success. I've always thought that you don't mess with success, especially not just to make everyone fit into your own narrow view of what is "the right way". The only exception I would make is if you have someone doing something that could cause injury (more a concern in pitching than in hitting).

On the MLB teams where Hudgins was the hitting coach, in fact you would see many different hitting approaches. Again, I present this meaning it as a compliment to him. And I would contrast that to others who think there is in fact only "one true way" to do it.

Definitions please BD

Definitions of load and tension--please

You can never answer a question can you ??

And you wonder why I criticize you !!!!

Sorry pal you dont get it

BlueDog,

Sometimes I think if we all got in a room, we would find ourselves meaning the same thing but saying it differently. Sometimes not.

You have to have muscular tension to stand, stay standing, move, get up, or hit. What I mean by load starts with what is not load --- a bunt. The barrel is stationary in the hitting zone.

My definition of load is to create distance to the hitting area, momentum into the hitting area, etc. Many players spread it out and are in tension with their big muscle groups ready to fire. Some vertically stack and are trying to be as tension free as possible, a lot like a boxer who is taking unneccesary tension out of his stance and punch to get more efficient punching (tension).

My sources of load are...
1. Press with the bat back (some say wrap the bat). I'm talking about creating distance between the knob and the barrel. I call this two critical distances, I want the knob as close to the hitting area as possible, but the barrel as far as possible. Bonds is the master.
2. A press back with the hands. (At least it looks this way.) As the player strides his hands separate from his head, creating distance. his head goes forward and his hands stay where they were. This happens before the head locks down during the rotation stage. There needs to be at least a slight bend in the arm.
3. A turn in with the front hip, or front knee or front foot. (However, you want to view it.)
4. Tension on the inside of the back leg to get things going forward.

This describes my son pretty much. (What do I know he was drafted as a pitcher.)

My son said something last week that makes me think he listens. He said he decided that it was better to hit 3 balls 400+ feet than one 500 feet. He is going to cut down on some of his movement and distance for more frequent contact.

quote:

baseballpappa, tension in a hitter is a good thing and is needed to produce a proper load.....

Load and tension are synonomous...........

Yoda, Load & Tension are NOT synonomous!

BD

Waiting for the definitons--------------