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DRD, you may want to think of it in terms of swinging directly to & through the ball.

To answer your question, backspin does help the ball carry farther.

Deviled eggs, making contact with the ball even slightly below its centerline will produce backspin. Backspin is more a result of a swing type, rather than a deliberate effort on any given pitch.
Devilraydude, What you really wanta do is get your barrel on the same plane as the ball as soon as you can in the swing. While staying connected and with proper rotation. Swinging down is an age old "Cue" to keep someone from swinging with a colapsed backside and swing up. The longer you have your barrel on ball plane the better your chance for success.
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Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
The longer you have your barrel on ball plane the better your chance for success.


Anyone who believes this, doesn't understand what constitutes a high level swing......Just being honest.....


Bluedog - now going after Ted Williams? LOL

You need a high level introduction to the real game - no aluminum allowed Pokey.

LOL
Vance

Outside of you trying to convince kids to give up college and go pro I would say you have no idea as to what the REAL WORLD is like out there--all you see is $$$$$$-

You have no idea as to what I know or do not know about hitting other than I prefer ONE ON ONE hitting instruction with live bodies not words and clamation dolls in cyberspace

I know plenty of scouts, and real good ones--they do not spend any time doing what you do---I am not even sure you are a full time scout---the guys I know dont put themselves in the position you do where you bicker with all comers-- the guys I know respect their positions and dont need to do what you do
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:

To get backspin on the ball, the ball must be struck below the center.....Swinging down or up, doesn't come into play in that equation, at all.....


Is it even possible to swing up on a ball and get backspin (and hit the ball in fair territory)? I can see if the swing plane is slightly above level but not if it's a 35 degree plane as suggested.
Last edited by Beezer
TR HIT. Most scouts know that telling people how it really is isn't worth the time nor effort. I see it different.

For me its not about the money.
quote:
all you see is $$$$$$-
its not me who just see's the money. its the parents and the players!

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You have no idea as to what I know or do not know about hitting other than I prefer ONE ON ONE hitting instruction with live bodies not words and clamation dolls in cyberspace


But what I do know. Is that what you regurgitate here about hitting is the same thing you would one on one. And thats not good!
Agree with Texan that backspin does help the ball carry and is ideal on most hits. But...

It is not ideal to swing down in order to create the spin. Any carry that is added will be negated by the lack of force produced by swinging down.

A ball should be met squarely to produce the maximum amount of force. In other words, if you want to produce force in a 10 degree upward angle (line drive over the SS head), the bat should collide with the ball at that 10 degree upward angle.

Picture hitting a forehand in tennis. If your goal was to hit the ball at maximum force, you would meet the ball squarely and direct the racket in the line of intended flight (just over the top of the net, slightly up). If your goal is to create backspin, you swing down and "cut" the ball. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a finesse shot. The more the racket moves away from the intended flight (racket going down, ball going up), the less force is transferred to the ball.

Besides all this, according to Robert Adair's "The Physics of Baseball", the maximum amount that backspin will add is 15 feet to a 400 ft fly ball. So the maximum amount that this magical backspin can "carry" a ball is less than 4% when compared to a ball with no spin. I've heard instructors tell kids that backspin will add over 100 feet!

Play this clip frame by frame: http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/nomar3.mpeg

Look at the the frames right before contact until the ball leaves the screen. The ball and the bat are travelling at the exact same (upward) angle through the hitting zone. This is the case in over 90% of line drives/home runs in MLB. This is more important to driving a ball than attempting to produce spin.
Last edited by LevelPath19
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And another question, whether swinging down or up at the ball.... do you want the hit to have backspin? My son has been taught to hit the bottom half of the ball to generate backspin. Is this correct?


Well Well. Beezer. My 1st post. I learned of this site from Steve E. He called and asked me if I was someone on this site already. I didn't know what he was talking about. So I have been just reading post.

Beezer......what you wanta do is center the ball. Hit the ball in the center of the ball and with the center of the bat.

If your swing is correct and your barrel is flat through the zone, much like what Vance said, with the barrel behind the hands and in that path. Then you will have the best chance to do that. Back spin is a by product of a lofted ball that will carry and sometimes for hoemruns. But it is also will result with having good line drives and very hard hit groundballs. You can have backspin with all those balls. Not just a ball in the air.

Your goal should be to center the ball with every swing of the bat. Hit the ball square.

Hope that helps.
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Originally posted by swingbuilder:
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And another question, whether swinging down or up at the ball.... do you want the hit to have backspin? My son has been taught to hit the bottom half of the ball to generate backspin. Is this correct?


Well Well. Beezer. My 1st post. I learned of this site from Steve E. He called and asked me if I was someone on this site already. I didn't know what he was talking about. So I have been just reading post.

Beezer......what you wanta do is center the ball. Hit the ball in the center of the ball and with the center of the bat.

If your swing is correct and your barrel is flat through the zone, much like what Vance said, with the barrel behind the hands and in that path. Then you will have the best chance to do that. Back spin is a by product of a lofted ball that will carry and sometimes for hoemruns. But it is also will result with having good line drives and very hard hit groundballs. You can have backspin with all those balls. Not just a ball in the air.

Your goal should be to center the ball with every swing of the bat. Hit the ball square.

Hope that helps.



If you hit a ground ball with backspin, you are a downswinger and have a swing that is not going to get you very far unless you run a 3.80 down the line.
FIRST OF ALL I AM NOT HERE TO ARGUE WITH ANYBODY AS I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS ONE CORRECT WAY TO HIT.

ALLS I KNOW IS THAT I WORKED WITH FORMER MARINERS THIRD BASE COACH DAVE MYERS OVER THE WINTER AND THE SWING HE TAUGHT ME WAS TO SWING DOWN ON THE BALL TO CREATE BACKSPIN HE MUST HAVE TOLD ME BACK SPIN LINE DRIVES 1,000 TIMES ALONG WITH SHORT THRU LONG THRU

LOOK AT TINO MARTINEZ AND A-ROD SWING THE BAT
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
FIRST OF ALL I AM NOT HERE TO ARGUE WITH ANYBODY AS I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS ONE CORRECT WAY TO HIT.

ALLS I KNOW IS THAT I WORKED WITH FORMER MARINERS THIRD BASE COACH DAVE MYERS OVER THE WINTER AND THE SWING HE TAUGHT ME WAS TO SWING DOWN ON THE BALL TO CREATE BACKSPIN HE MUST HAVE TOLD ME BACK SPIN LINE DRIVES 1,000 TIMES ALONG WITH SHORT THRU LONG THRU

LOOK AT TINO MARTINEZ AND A-ROD SWING THE BAT


Max, Post a clip of a good Major League hitter swinging down on the ball........I will wait patiently to see it. You create backspin by hitting the ball below its center, not by swinging down.
Well, I didn't think I would have to include the exact swing angle..but,

...If the ball is met 1/2 inch below the center by a bat moving in a slightly upward (10 degrees or so) direction at a speed of 80 mph or so...the ball should go about 370.

My point was that there are more important factors to driving a ball 370 ft...path of swing, speed of bat, point of contact on the bat...getting backspin from a downward swing angle is not a actual factor...
Last edited by LevelPath19
If I could find a clip I would show you that all big league hitters swing at least somewhat downward to the ball. Almost every single one swings downward to the ball, but you think they swing upward because they have such a good release on the ball. If you dont believe this go to the LA Angels farm system and that is what they teach you from day 1 til your done.
I suppose "up" or "down" would depend upon from where you begin measuring? Smile

Of course the bat starts out somewhere above the rear shoulder/head and has to come down from there to reach the ball.

However, I think what most people who study/discuss hitting clips refer to as "up" is from around where the bat passes the body and into contact.
Alright but do you have to use the CAPS?

I have had a good opportunity to hit with really good hitters, some in professional baseball...and some in college, who also work with my coach. A few that I have had the opportunity to hit with are Chris Minaker (Stanford), Jeff Cirillo (Milwaukee Brewers), Stephen Englund (2nd round pick), Justin Fuller (LC State) to name a few. They all have one thing in common which is very important in a swing. They all COMPRESS down thru a baseball, and that is where you get power from (and using your middle). You can't compress thru a baseball with an uppercut swing. Not only can you not do that, it will also be much harder to catch up to a 95 MPH fastball at the top of the strike zone...
Shortstop11, Did you watch the Home Run Derby and see the super slow motion swings? In every swing, the replay showed the bat striking the ball at an upward angle, an angle close to the flight of the ball. The bat usually started it's upward trajectory a good foot and a half before striking the ball. And the hitters were not changing their swing for the derby, in fact David Wright seemed to use much less of an uppercut than he uses in a game.

As for MLB hitters saying that they swing down, many of them say that they feel doing it, but slow motion replays reveal that they do not. Try this website and tell me who swings down...
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html

Play these clips frame by frame, and stop each clip the frame before contact. You will never see a bat going down and "compressing" through the ball. Despite what Arod and Jeff Cirillo say.
Last edited by LevelPath19
I couldn't resist, but this is a perfect anecdote lifted from another website.

quote:
Always, when this conversation arises, I remember a story Don Slaught told me about talking w/ Barry Bonds about his swing. Bonds said he "was hitting all right, but didn't think he was swinging down sharply enough to contact." Slaught told him that in fact, like all MLB hitters, he swung UP to contact. Bonds vehemently denied the possibility of this. Slaught used RVP {Right View Pro} to convince Bonds, and later heard him walk up to ARod at the All Star Game batting practice and say, "Alex, you know you don't swing down to the ball, right?"
Last edited by LevelPath19
quote:
You can't compress thru a baseball with an uppercut swing. Not only can you not do that, it will also be much harder to catch up to a 95 MPH fastball at the top of the strike zone...


Exactly....which explains why MLB hitters adjust there posture (spine angle) upward during weight shift on high pitches in keeping the lead arm perpendicular to contact point.
By being more upright, less angle is created for a flatter swing. Also note posture is relative to lean at contact...less lean on higher pitches, more lean on lower pitches.
Alright I guess you guys are right. That quote from Levelpath makes me realize that you dont REALLY swing down on the ball, but it sure helps as a hitter to think that way.
Also one more question.. do all professional scouts pretty much teach the same type of swing or do different scouts teach different ways? I guess what I'm asking is do their beliefs vary and teach their hitters different hitting principles than other scouts? And what are the absolutes?
quote:
Originally posted by Shortstop 11:
Alright but do you have to use the CAPS?

I have had a good opportunity to hit with really good hitters, some in professional baseball...and some in college, who also work with my coach. A few that I have had the opportunity to hit with are Chris Minaker (Stanford), Jeff Cirillo (Milwaukee Brewers), Stephen Englund (2nd round pick), Justin Fuller (LC State) to name a few. They all have one thing in common which is very important in a swing. They all COMPRESS down thru a baseball, and that is where you get power from (and using your middle). You can't compress thru a baseball with an uppercut swing. Not only can you not do that, it will also be much harder to catch up to a 95 MPH fastball at the top of the strike zone...


Steve Englund

Steve Englund swings with a slight upswing, and that is one of the reasons he has a chance to be a power hitter.If he had a downswing, I would not have drafted him. Notice how he drills the catcher with his follow through. Smile
Last edited by bbscout
BBscout

Wished you would have posted this yesterday because I would have definitely given a positive mention of this hitter's swing to your Farm Director Andy Dunn who I had the pleasure of spending some quality and very positive time with today at Colton's GCL start. He told me he just left Vermont and I told him how much I believed in you and Brett, and I mean it, and how long it took me as professional to make adjustments with wood after aluminum as well as other examples. I also gave him some "verbal" reports on George Lombard who I scouted when I worked with Orioles in GA when he patrolled OF in Atlanta Braves organization who I was looking for today at game because he knows me and "was" on NATS GCL roster last week. Anyway, Andy informed me that he had just been promoted top AAA NATS affiliate Smile Darn! Smile Was waiting in the wings!!

Englund looks really good in the clip BB, good draft and sign. You did sign him I hope??!! peace, Shep
Last edited by Shepster
BBscout

After going over my scouting notes I realized that Englund was playing CF yesterday for GCL NATS and knocked the cover off the ball in at least one of his ABs yesterday! WOW! Didn't realize that was your sign out there, he looked really good!
He will play in Bigs, fore sure! Sorry I didn't pick up on this earlier but there are just so many thousand names running around up here in this old and feeble brain Big Grin Thanks for not embarrasing me....but in all humility, I must admit, I missed that one.... Roll Eyes peace
Last edited by Shepster
If you want to see one of the best examples of keeping the barrel inside the baseball, look at number 9 with Ortiz pulling hands in slightly and keeping barrel inside of ball on inside half pitch.

One thing I noticed in every one of these Ziggy examples, the bat has to come down before it goes back up in the uppercut fashion creating a natural reverse backspin on ball off bat Smile
peace, Shep
Last edited by Shepster
Sandman

That was a serious swing from that prospect! Sorry I missed this earlier. That is some serious backspin Smile How far did it go anyway? WOW!!! peace

Went back and read...That is quite a feat for the little guy! That is a long way for a player that age to hit a baseball for sure! How tall is he anyway? His mechanics looked VERY GOOD! peace
Last edited by Shepster
Great posts fellas, way to keep it civil. A good hitter will start taking his hands down towards the baseball. So, your first movement after the load, is to "take it down". You don't want to chicken wing that front elbow. But then your barrel will eventually drop before contact. Then it is job of the back leg and top hand to drive that barrel back up through the baseball. In saying that, backspin is excellent. Swinging down is wrong. Not a professional swing, however, it is good to think in the box, "take it down" with the nob of the bat, so you will stay compact. IF you are thinking "swing up", a lot of bad stuff can happen. Great clips by the way, those are great examples, those guys all take the nob down and then the barrel takes off because of the hip action.

www.baseballpros.net
Last edited by bubandbran
MAX

We're still waiting for that email response from AROD you said you would cut and paste here at HSBBW in this thread. He's prolly too busy in the batting cages trying to get rid of that uppercut and swamped in emails trying to respond to all those diehard boo-bird fans in the bronx Big Grin Later!

bubnbran

Always good to see you back here brother. You are very good for baseball. Hope and pray prospects will be led your way because I know you are very knowledgeable and can help a prospect to reach his full-potential. Peace, Shep
Last edited by Shepster
Shep...thanks for the encouragement...prospect wise the GCL Braves are struggling. It is hard for some of these kids to make the adjustment to pro ball. But, we are working hard. We do have good pitching however, imagine that... the Braves having good pitching in thier system! Any way I can help, I am willing to on this website. I think it can very beneficial to young players. Make sure we keep the arguing to a minimum. Save that for private posts. Young players need this as a resource, as do parents. Sometimes I am hesitant to post anything due to the ridicule from all the "experts" that sometimes frequent this site.

www.baseballpros.net
Exactly what I was talking about. To answer your question, bluedog, yes. For clear evidence, consult the post from Max on page 4 and look at the clips. Watch their first moves down with the knob, then the barrel drops, then the back leg and top hand drive the barrel back through the zone. I do not wish to engage with you in any of your gibberish, I have more important things to do with my time. If you want a hitting lesson, meet me at the Disney's Wide World of Sports, I am there everyday of the week.

www.baseballpros.net
Dog-

"The hands go where the posture takes the shoulders"

I don't think so.

The posture is determined by where the shoulders need to get.Swing trajectory is very dependent on raising/lowering the shoulders/shoulders working together, which is not posture dependent.

Shoulder action is determined by where the hands need to get.

Arm action is required to establish the shoulder/hand relation.
Ok, first of all I think we are getting FAR TOO ANALYTICAL about all of this. Extremely difficult to debate w/ words alone. But it is kinda fun at times.

So now we are discussing (again) if the back leg is used to help drive or fire the back side to the ball or if the middle (core) of the body pulls the back side to the ball.

I will admit what I'm about to say is very analytical in itself.

What if:

Big league hitter, hitting on a sheet of ice (let's say a hockey rink). On his front foot he wears a shoe that would completely prevent slipping. On his back foot he wears nothing (bare foot).

If the middle pulls the back side to the ball then the hitter should theoretically have no problem swinging the bat (maintaining balance etc...).
Let's also assume that the hitter uses no stride. I think what you would see is the hitter greatly struggling to even perform the task of swinging the bat w/ any force at all.

I think you do indeed use your back leg (and front) to fire the back side to the ball.

I 100% feel the legs are extremely important and they actually greatly aid in the fireing of the back side more so than anything else.

I also do not want to debate this. So basically I agree to disagree w/ the thought that the middle pulls the back side.
Great Post LOW337

Even Roberto Clemente has already fired his back side and "squared up" before back leg comes up off the ground.

LOW337, Headed out the door, will see RHP Brett Smith pitch for Tampa Yankees. You shoulda seen Adam Thomas-RHP pitch for Vero last night! WOW!
I posted over at PG board if you get a chance to take a look at what I think about him. Have a good night brother and will be back after game tonight around 10:30 or 11:00.

Board, will see you all a little later, as well. Smile peace, you are all my heroes! Shep
LOW337.....I like your post. Here is my take. I do believe that there is force against the ground and big league hitters use force to move Laterally. However, I still believe that the rotation of the hips is what makes that foot come off the ground. But, I also believe that the force against the ground is what gets that hitter to transfer his weight pressure from his back foot to his front foot.

I have a friend who does a demonstration of how the swing starts from the middle. He does this by jumping in the air and then rotating. But, in his demonstartion, the hips do not turn until his feet have returned to the ground!

So what I see in big league hitters is force being used to move the body laterally then the hips turn the middle and as a result the foot comes off the ground.

I like your ice theory but along the same line. Wonder if there could be a resistent hip turn while being suspended in the air?

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