Bad coaching advice - what to do

quote:

PG - I think it's a pride issue. No one wants to be told he/she has been doing it wrong for 10 years!

dPayton,

This can be a problem. I wouldn't "like" hearing you've been doing it wrong for 10 years. But if it were truly wrong I would "want" to hear about it. No sense in being proud about doing things wrong.

No person alive knows everything when it comes to baseball. Those who think they do can present a problem. We always talk about the ability to adjust and how important that is for players. It is equally important for coaches, instructors and parents. IMO

Communication is important, unfortunately it takes two in order to communicate. Diplomacy is still worth a try. If all else fails... make the necessary adjustments!

The bottom line is still the same : your son plays for the coach not the academy instructor-- 'nuff said

A couple of weeks ago, after a few days of rain, I rented time in a facility so my son could get in some hitting against Pro Batter. After programming in fifty pitches and getting my son started, I decided to listen to the hitting instruction taking place in the next lane. What I learned is just because a guy played minor league ball doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about. Yet people fork over money to ex pros as if they have a pedigree to teach the game. Some ex pros achieved when they played, don't really understand how they achieved, and can't teach. I've also seen instructors who know all the terminology to impress the parents, but can't teach. Don't assume because you pay for instruction it's correct.

In terms of dealing with the school coach I only have two questions. Who makes out the lineup, the coach or the instructor? Do you want to play?

quote TRhit:
"Nothing against academies , my stepson is a pitching instructor at one and he is a darn good instructor, but what makes their instructors more right than a HS or Travel Team coach--just because you give them a check at the academy every week does not necessarily make them better"

TR,
It would seem to me that a full time baseball instructor who goes to seminars and is committed to learning his trade is more qualified than a part time HS coach whose main job is in the classroom. I know their are knowledgeable HS coaches out there, who know their stuff, but I believe their are many more who don't.

My experience tells me that most HS coaches in my area are not qualified to teach baseball. They do their best but are more managers of kids than teachers of baseball. They don't teach kids how to throw and hit. They put them in positions they feel they are capable of handling and instruct them at that position. If a kid is struggling hitting they don't take them aside and analyze their swing. They try to motivate and lead but I don't think many are qualified to instruct any more than a dad is.

I am not complaining or bashing these coaches. It just is what it is. I would much rather have my son get instruction from a full time academy coach who is trained to teach hitting than his high school coach who is trained to teach biology.

All that being said, I think it puts a kid in a tough spot if a HS coach insists he swings his way. But I also find it hard to believe that a HS would change a kid's swing if the kid is tearing the cover off the ball.

fillsfan

Where and when were you told that academy instructors are trained for what they do ???

Fills ... The experience your son and you have at his academy is not the norm. My son is fortunate to have good instruction where his team trains. But there are a lot of "other" academies. All it takes to open an academy is some cash. The hard part is obtaining quality instructors.

TR,
I do know that the instructors where my son trains do go to seminars and do train and learn the latest techniques of their trade. Similar to many other industries.

I have found kids that their dads built them a hitting cage often are the big hitters, a coincidence, no. They get better because of repetition and hard work. A trainer can teach them technique, but having your own batting cage pays off, I know because my son's teammate has one and is highly recruited by MLB, going to D1.

PUHD,
I agree with the repetition part of your comment. Repeating a properly taught swing thousands of times over the winter is invaluable.

Many kids in our area train at the same academy as my son. When you go to a high school game around here you can spot these kids with their first swing.

RJM,
you are correct about opening academies. Seems one or two opens every year around here. One or two closes every year also!

bbkaze, the problem is that there are very few so called coaches who have any idea whatsoever of what consist of proper pitching skills so the body from the ground up does all the work and the arm just goes along for the ride,which is prevalent even in the major leagues due to the fact that before anyone learns much of anything there must be an experienced and knowledgeable teacher of the subject involved there, like you say just get out and take all day to timidly walk off down the hill with absolutely no push off the rubber,with entirely too short of stride six inches on either side of the line,which ever is convenient at the time time, then low and behold open up the hips before the front foot landing and insanely attempt to generate whatever momentum and power with the arm which under these circumstances is all there is left to throw with these are just some of the lack of pitching skills along with improper instruction.
people must learn and realize that the physical movements of baseball are, energetic, explosive driven momentum quick under controlled movements, there is not any movement on the field where a player just stands there and does whatever their immediate task at hand is at the time without completing that task with, energetic, explosive, controlled,momentum driven movements, so why are pitchers not to taught how to use their body's starting from the ground up properly, generating their pitching power from the ground up through the HIPS""THE LARGER MUSCLES OF THE STRONGER LOWER HALF OF THE BODY" and then at the front foot contact in a direct line to their target unleash that lower body power which has traveled from the ground up to and through the hips and has traveled up into the upper body and is ready to explode into and through the arm and out through the hand and fingertips on to the intended target while the back follows on forward into a low flat back follow through position letting the hand and arm end up in a dropped down position slightly off center to and in a relaxed position to enable the total throwing power to dissipate into the large muscles of the lower body instead of dissipating into the smaller muscles of the upper body and disallowing the arm to relax at the finish of it's powerfull throwing action created from the ground up through the body into and through the arm and out through the finger tips
Due to the fact that very few pitchers are not taught to or how to finish out their pitches and absolutely do not ever even get to their finish position and consequently are not in any way familiar with their finish position I teach pitchers by starting them out from the finish position back through to their starting position.
There is so much more to it all but I have to go now , I certainly do hope my comments are of help, If not let me know, If so, let me know. Lets talk hitting and other aspects also.

Don Ervin.
kom_ervin@yahoo.com

Thank you for the excellent post!

OOPS - guess I'll stick to hitting!

TOO BAD it's inaccurate.

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/david_kopp.htm

Here's TPM's son and Rivera . NO push off the rubber. The problem is too many people think they have answer and are puzzled why their version of the truth is not taught.
Watch the action of the back leg. It is extended as the arm drives forward. The toe is dragged to stabilize the lower body as the arm drives forward.

Another guy fishing for business.

BHD are you saying that the only way to pitch is how they do it in the video with the straight leg?

Check out Cole Hamels

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/cole_hamels.htm

Micah Owings (harder to see but you can see a bent leg)

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/micah_owings.htm

Tim Lincecum

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/tim_lincecum.htm

Joba Chamberlain

http://www.pitchingclips.com/p...joba_chamberlain.htm

Joel Zumaya (not a great video b/c it's a bullpen so he's not going 100% but you can see the leg bend)

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/joel_zumaya.htm

Justin Verlander

http://www.pitchingclips.com/p...justin_verlander.htm

I found just as many guys who don't push off the rubber as I did who do push. There is nothing wrong with either one. The pitcher has to find what is comfortable to them and use it.

No I am not saying that. What I am saying is that you don't push off the rubber. All your clips prove my point. To emphasize pushing off the back leg is bad advice. I have clips of ML pitching coaches emphasizing that point. I would post them but they are on VHS and I don't have the equipment to convert it to digital.
In all clips you will see the toe drag which is done to stabilize the lower body so the upper body can unload. That is basic physics. Also to say the arm is along for the ride is total garbage.
Yes everyone knows the whole body is involved right down to the fingers.
I see lots of pitchers who collapse the back leg and there is nothing wrong with that, It is still not pushing off the back leg any more than when you walk down the street..
Don is promoting his business!

I am not sure why DK was used as an example, and honestly after reading the post from Don I have no clue what he is saying. I suggest that in explanation it's kept simple, for the simple people like myself.
Coach, BHD is 100% correct. I know there was a discussion about this a while back so I asked a pitching coach about the "push". There is no such thing, but there is a force that is generated by the leg and foot, but only a result of everything moving forward and should not be confused as a "push" from the back leg or foot.
In teaching young pitchers to pitch, the word "push" should never be used in instruction.
And there is not one pitcher that I saw that you posted that "pushes" off of the rubber.

Who are the people who determine what "bad coaching: is ?

If you parents know more than the coaches/instructors then why don't you coach?


How come parents. moms and dads , know more than the coaches all the time but they are in the stands or on a forum "roasting" the coaches ?

TPM I couldn't have said it better. I used DK because he has what I consider ideal mechanics. Great stride !

Well looks like I'm wrong and probably won't be the last time. I have seen and heard guys at clinics use the word push in their presentations. Maybe I misunderstood them.

Although after watching Lincecum again could you say he does push because he gains a lot of ground towards the plate when he pitches. That momentum has to be created from somewhere. Not trying to backdoor prove my point - just talking pitching.

Also, check out the Tom Seaver video. In one shot it looks like he's about a foot in front of the rubber. I'm not sure because the monitor I'm using isn't the greatest so it might be something else but it looks to me he's not in contact with the rubber.

BHD that is a great site to check out the mechanics of pitchers.

This topic is starting to remind me of an infamous hitting debate. IMO this is merely a protracted argument about terminology, rather than technique. Some call it push off. Most used to call it that, so perhaps it's an old-school description. Some now take umbrage with the term because it implies some sort of undue effort from the lower extremity and de-emphasizes the upper extremity. Fine.

All of the pitchers cited very effectively use their entire bodies in a highly choreographed kinetic chain of events to propel the ball forward with maximum velocity. No one here has argued that the muscles of the lower leg are not firing during the final phase of the delivery, resulting in active extension of the leg towards the direction of the plate. And yes, a similar active extension is present in the terminal swing phase of gait. Try walking down the street without it. Better yet, try getting 12-14 inches out in front of the rubber like Tim L. without it.

Lets all call it something new please, something PC perhaps so no-one is offended any longer, then maybe we can all move on to something new.

Happy Fourth everyone.

It is very important to refrain from using the concept of pushing off the rubber. It isn't just terminology. The MLB pitching coach that I videoed took 20 minutes to labor the point
Linsecum has a giant stride and that makes him appear to push off. In order to accelerate the arm and upper body the lower body has to stabilize. It has to become the fulcrum that allows the arm to get max torque. Try jumping and throwing at the same time. Very hard to do.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Who are the people who determine what "bad coaching: is ?

If you parents know more than the coaches/instructors then why don't you coach?

Tom, you're a broken record. I'd venture a guess that 50% of your 20K+ posts is some type of put down towards parents. Interestingly, these parents who are so interested in their son's success in baseball and college are the every same parents that fund your select baseball business. The demeanor illustrated in your posts do not illustrate the attitude I'd be looking for in the vendor with whom I am doing business.

quote:

How come parents. moms and dads , ....

Other than step-parents, are there any other classifications of parents? You're either a mom or a dad, right?

quote:

The demeanor illustrated in your posts do not illustrate the attitude I'd be looking for in the vendor with whom I am doing business.

Is that what it is now business? did not know that all the years i coached it was a business?

BBHD,
So by analogy it must be difficult to jump and hit a tennis serve at the same time? -- NOT! Or are they swinging their arms so fast it pulls them into the air? Heck no, they're pushing off and jumping into the air.

You are delving into semantics. Every one of those pitchers is pushing off with their drive leg. The only issue is what cue happens to be the most effective in teaching a given pitcher. Sometimes "pushing off" is a bad cue for some pitchers (because for some pitchers it gets them pushing upwards instead of driving toward the plate). Sometimes pushing off is a good cue for some pitchers because they aren't using their legs enough (personally I prefer emphasizing a long stride).

The same goes for all those "clueless" instructors. The fact is they may (or may not) be using an effective cue to get a player to make a necessary change even if the cue is "wrong". The best instructors adjust their teaching to the individual. There's an article out there somewhere about Ted Williams teaching at a clinic and telling a kid with an uppercut that he needed to learn to swing down on the ball. Many of you would pillorize any instructor today who would say that to a student, yet it was done by the greatest hitter/instructor of all time.

quote:

In order to accelerate the arm and upper body the lower body has to stabilize.

The ultimate in stability is a nearly static stance. Come to think of it, rigor mortis is pretty darn stable. The lower extremity has to do much, much more than stabilize the UE in the act of throwing a ball. The LE is absolutely quite active in the delivery and, regardless of the terminology, the action is away from the rubber.

CADad has this right IMO. This is all about which cue is most effective in teaching the action to young pitchers.

Tennis is a sport I know well. In tennis you elevate to get an angle to drive low to the net. You don't drive by jumping and your lead foot doesn't leave the ground until you have hit the ball. That is to get into the court. There is no analogy to using a racket. Any sport that uses the arm to throw requires a stable lower body. Like throwing a football, discuss etc.
Keep teaching what pro pitching says is wrong.

Maybe you guys subscribe to the happy Gilmor school of golf.

I know tennis a lot better than you do and I've faced off against some of the top players in the world (in my day) in ATP tournaments. I fully realize people are trying to get a better angle for the serve by jumping at the same time as they drive forward into the court in order to generate more velocity on the serve. They are also swinging a racket at a moving ball and with that much longer lever can still strike the ball accurately while jumping. That is the point I'm making with my tennis analogy. Lincecum is thinking long stride, but he pushes off hard in order to achieve that long stride. By thinking long stride he keeps from pushing upwards, which as I noted in my earlier post, is not a good thing in pitching.

BTW, I can beat you at golf also.

How much money do you want to put up front ?

Dont know if this will help the posters original question or not - but about 95% of "Hitting instructors" I have dealt with over the last 15 years had absolutely no idea what they were talking about - or how to teach what they knew.

Its really hard to find a good hitting coach - IMO.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
BBHD,
So by analogy it must be difficult to jump and hit a tennis serve at the same time? -- NOT! Or are they swinging their arms so fast it pulls them into the air? Heck no, they're pushing off and jumping into the air.

You are delving into semantics. Every one of those pitchers is pushing off with their drive leg. The only issue is what cue happens to be the most effective in teaching a given pitcher. Sometimes "pushing off" is a bad cue for some pitchers (because for some pitchers it gets them pushing upwards instead of driving toward the plate). Sometimes pushing off is a good cue for some pitchers because they aren't using their legs enough (personally I prefer emphasizing a long stride).

The same goes for all those "clueless" instructors. The fact is they may (or may not) be using an effective cue to get a player to make a necessary change even if the cue is "wrong". The best instructors adjust their teaching to the individual. There's an article out there somewhere about Ted Williams teaching at a clinic and telling a kid with an uppercut that he needed to learn to swing down on the ball. Many of you would pillorize any instructor today who would say that to a student, yet it was done by the greatest hitter/instructor of all time.

If you look at the clip of Rivera, he is not pushing off of a rubber and if there is one he's not even close. So the chain of events doesn't come from pushing off of the rubber for him.

BHD, thanks for the compliment!

Rivera is almost lobbing the ball in that clip. I've got clips of him pitching and he very definitely pushes off. The rear knee straightens out forcefully when he's pitching. He isn't pushing off in that clip because he's not trying to throw it hard.

quote:

Rivera is almost lobbing the ball in that clip. I've got clips of him pitching and he very definitely pushes off. The rear knee straightens out forcefully when he's pitching. He isn't pushing off in that clip because he's not trying to throw it hard.

Slow motion not lobbing it. It is slow motion so you can see what is really taking place.

Here's a good article for discussion.

http://www.pitching.com/articl...he-secret-to-velocit

And another.

http://www.pitching.com/articl...-push-off-the-rubber

quote:

general schwarzkopf said "there's more than one way to look at problem, and they may all be right."

My favorite Shwarzkopf quote:

I believe that forgiving them is God's function. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting.


-on those behind Sept 11 attacks

This has been one of the most highly-entertaining threads. It's gone from batting instruction to coaching arrogance to pitching mechanics to the merits of baseball academies to how to serve a tennis ball. Whew. Don't know what's next, but I can't wait. Perhaps the quality of sand used in beach volleyball tournaments?

For the poster with the broken record remark--I am still waiting---who determines what is a bad coach


Its--I am with you--

quote:

My son has been going to a baseball academy(run by guy whose managed double AA)

It seems like if you were affiliated anyway with professional baseball it automatically qualifies you to coach at the high school or college level. I am not saying this man is not but everybody always seems to suggest that there son is being taught or coached by someone with those credentials. Like everything else some are very good and some are not. But it seems like schools are impressed by the pedigree of professional. I coached high school for close to 30 years and the coach who impressed me the most was one who never played in high school or college. he was a high school english teacher who coached for close to 40 years. His teams were well schooled in the fundamentals of the game and you better play your A game to beat them.

WILL it is one thing to be coached by a guy without credentials and quite another to be instructed by a guy without credentials.

Wow. This thread has me afraid - very afraid.
Interviews are taking place today for our new HS coach. There are three candidates. One of our assistant coaches, one assistant coach at our #1 rival school, and I can't get any info on the third. The key at our school is whether or not the coach can make the right parents happy. No one lasts for very long. I did hear that the guy in the NYT story below was interested. I heard he was a good coach, and maybe the parents would leave him alone...

June 2005
Brawl Instigator Suspended


The International League suspended Richmond Braves (Class AAA - Atlanta) outfielder Esix Snead for 10 games and fined him an undisclosed amount for instigating a bench-clearing brawl in Monday night's game between the Braves and the Syracuse SkyChiefs (Class AAA - Toronto). Braves Manager Pat Kelly was suspended for a game and the league also fined Kelly and 20 members of the Braves for their roles in the fight. The suspension was handed down Thursday, the day after the league fined 20 Syracuse players and a coach.

Snead took exception to an inside pitch thrown by Syracuse pitcher Matt Bush in the second inning and had to be restrained by the Syracuse catcher.

Then, after working a walk, Snead charged Bush from the first-base line and struck him with his batting helmet.

Don't throw anything at him and you should be okay.