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My son has been going to a baseball academy(run by guy whose managed double AA) in the winter months for a couple years now. This year is his first year playing JV and the coach wants him to change his hitting mechanics around that go opposite of what he's learned at the academy. He's torn because he doesn't like the new style but the coach pulled him into his office last night and said, "Ben you WILL hit our way. Our track record speaks for itself, forget what you've learned." Has anyone run into this? I trust the academy because everything he teaches I see in MLB and other camps I've gone to. HELP!!!
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Boy you guys are quick!! Thanks for all the input. My son is an average hitter. Here is what the JV coach is telling him that is different than the instruction he's getting at the academy(RBI).

All hitting off a tee:
1) hit with a bent front leg
2) wrap the bat around the shoulder
3) hands back first, then stride, then pivot, then hit, head ends up a little forward than it was at address

RBI taught him this in contrast:
1) when you make contact with the ball, the front leg should be straight
2) bat should finish up around the neck after good extension
3) hands and stride foot separate at the same time, head stays in about the same spot as address

The "you do it our way" quote doesn't hold water with me. He's making everyone do this drill, not just Ben and I just think he's wrong....
quote:
Originally posted by dPayton:
For all you who said just do what they want in the drills/BP, I told him the same thing - just do what he asks. He's already caught the wrath of the coach by explaining what he's learned. You know how some coaches can be when you tell them you think they're wrong.....OH BOY...


imo, i can think of very few situations where a kid should be telling a coach he is wrong. funny, my boss just hates it when i tell him how he's running his business wrong, too?

general schwarzkopf said "there's more than one way to look at problem, and they may all be right."
my boss is a college dropout....i've got a 4 year degree!

if you're son is fortunate enough to play college ball and his new coach only has college coaching experience, will he tell the college coach he's wrong if it differs from something his intructor taught?

the point is, right or wrong a kid should not "correct" a coach. teach your kid the diplomacy of "going with it" or he may be tagged as uncoachable....just my two cents!

btw, my son is working with two former major leaguers, one is his grandpa. he has worked with former college players and a double a guy and a single a manager from san diego......they all offered something. good luck!!
Just because it's different or not what you teach doesn't make it bad or wrong. If there were only one way to teach hitting then every single hitter at every single level of ball would look the same. It's not that way.

That being said I'm not a fan of the "it's only going to be done my way" philosophy. I pretty much teach what you described the AA guy was teaching but I have seen the other method work. So if I got a guy who can hit using that method then I'm going to pencil them in and tell them how great they are.

Your son is going to have to learn to deal with different types of coaches and teachings as he goes through this game. Some of it's great and some of it's terrible and some of it won't make a lick of sense. Doesn't really make it wrong. Plus, if something is changed it won't feel "right" to the player on the first try. He has developed a habit (good or bad) that he is used to. Any change to that habit is going to feel uncomfortable. It doesn't mean they should stop trying to make the change if it's good for them. It's like riding a bicycle - you don't just hop on one and start riding it. You have to learn how to ride it and that takes time.

I got a player right now who drops his hands when he hits. Obviously he is not doing very well right now. I got him doing a drill everyday that is helping but he's still dropping his hands although not as bad. It will probably take another week of doing that drill before it becomes a regular habit for him. We got to keep working at it and make the change. If we quit after the first time trying the new drill he would never get better.

You said your was an average hitter - to me that means he can improve (of course you can say that about everyone). He might pick up something in the new style the JV coach is teaching that will help him.

Teach him to cope with what's going on to make adjustments. I realize you are on here pretty much just venting and there's nothing wrong with that but think of this - if you go to the coach and say anything (even if you mean it positively) do you think he will change? I doubt he will.
L8 - I hear ya! I guess I mistyped or mis-communicated about what my son said to the coach. I don't think he said he was wrong, just what he learned from RBI was different than what his coach was telling him. And I REALLY know what you're saying about being labeled uncoachable. I keep telling him over and over - do what he asks and bust your ars....Thanks for the advice, I really didn't know what to do about this.

Lefty - 100% agree now with that. I just wasn't sure how to proceed with it when he came home all upset telling me the coach pulled him in his office because he wasn't doing it HIS way...Ya learn as you go...
Hi Coach - In regards to what the coach is teaching, I just think he's wrong, period. No one is taught to have your leg bent when making contact with a ball, well, as much as I've heard/seen. That's probably my biggest gripe. I'm having a hard time with a guy this rigid teaching something I know(or should I say think) is wrong. No one can tell me this coach knows more than the guy at RBI. I watch MLB swings all the time and everything he's taught at RBI is mimic'd on tv all the time. I guess I'm just worried he'll fall into bad habits. You're probably right too - I'm just venting. I need to sit back and enjoy the ride and stop worrying...Easier said than done! Smile Thanks!!

PS - I'd never go to the coach and confront him on anything. He's got too much on his plate to begin with..
Sometimes two coaches are saying the same thing two different ways. But the bottom line for your son is doing what the coach says and playing, or tuning him out and sitting. Your son may not have been hitting well enough for the coach to intervene. Most coaches (not all) won't mess with success.

Are you sure the coach said to hit with a bent front knee? Could he have meant bent in his stance?
Last edited by RJM
RJM - I thought so too(not messing with success) but after a practice I saw a few weeks ago, he had everyone doing that same drill. Note that he really hadn't seen the kids hit yet at that point so he really didn't know who could hit and who couldn't. And yep, when the coach was showing the kids what he wanted his leg was bent throughout. I've just never seen that. Couple that with the bat wrapped around the shoulder - it just looked very, very odd.
Last edited by stayinside11
quote:
Couple that with the bat wrapped around the shoulder
Maybe the coach isn't saying this properly. Maybe he doesn't understand the concept. Hitters c0ck the bat at an angle over their head to get whip (hope I explained this well enough to be understood).
Last edited by RJM
quote:
All hitting off a tee:
1) hit with a bent front leg
2) wrap the bat around the shoulder
3) hands back first, then stride, then pivot, then hit, head ends up a little forward than it was at address

RBI taught him this in contrast:
1) when you make contact with the ball, the front leg should be straight
2) bat should finish up around the neck after good extension
3) hands and stride foot separate at the same time, head stays in about the same spot as address



ummm, yeah...go with rbi...other guy is way lost
A suggestion:

Have your professional instructor offer to give a "free" clinic to the High School Varsity and JV teams.

Everyone benefits from this educational exchange.

Bob Williams

PS: Several years ago in Adelaide, South Australia,
in our 1st game our RF Jared Sandberg [a cousin]
had a slight "uppercut" in his left handed swing.
My son Robert was the coach and he removed Jared from the 2nd game. Jim Lentine [Texas Ranger hitting coach] and I placed Jared on a tee and soft toss for one hour.

After this special practice, he was inserted into the game as a pinch hitter. Jared hit a three run HR and during the next 10 games he hit 8 more HR.

Also on this team was Dave La Roche [our pitching coach]; Adam and Adam La Roche [Pirates].
Bob - I would but he lives an hour away. I suppose could ask but then I might get in trouble for showing the kids a "different" swing than what is being coached here. I only know the JV coach now, the varsity coach may be less rigid in his beliefs. That's an interesting story Jared. Nice to have some MLB'rs at your disposal, eh?

Texas - Yeah, I'm with you on rbi and the mechanics of the swing as far as how the bat travels. I wouldn't feel as strongly as I do about the academy if I didn't see most players doing the same thing on TV.
dpayton, if you google any player, click on images, you'll get some great pics...maybe tell your son to print some off and put in his locker. Maybe the coach will see them...rbi has a good rep around the country so i'm pretty sure that they arent leading your son in the wrong direction. one note: a stiff left leg is what allows you to generate torque in your swing...if you have a bent front side, its hard to get the hips through...and the hips are what start the hands
I've googled a LOT of players - I especially like Manny and Longoria's swing. That's a great idea to put the pictures up in his locker! I'll recommend that to him. Agreed on the stiff front leg - back hip can't fire through like it should if it's not. But I'm still going to "do as the Romans do" as suggested previously and tell him to do whatever the coach says. It's not worth the battle.
quote:
Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
the swing does have a slight upward angle at contact...a hitter has to meet the ball on the same plan that its thown on...get the hitting zone early and as your hitting it...it will be heading up a tad bit...almost like the letter "U" if you will


Coach, it can be hard to visualize what someone is trying to explain about hitting so I aplogize in advance if I am not understanding.
When you say the swing has a slight upward angle at contact, doesn't that produce top spin?
If so, isn't the current thinking that you want to produce back spin through the point of contact?
Your a good parent dpayton...sometimes when people are doing it wrong and doing it wrong to your kids...makes it really to want to shout out loud...maybe even have your son just talk baseball with the coach..say "hey coach, did you see manny swing it last night" could spark some hitting dialog...I encourage guys to ask questions, we all can learn something new...hitting is day by day, at bat by at bat, pitch by pitch...thing can change at a moments notice
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_km0P...+dodgers+hitting.jpg

I totally understand infielddad...its not easy..go look at this pic of manny...in order for him to get the bat in the hitting zone, the back shoulder will slightly dip...now the bat is goin down because he's holding up high...once it gets in the hitting zone, it will be flat...as he makes contact with the ball, it will be slightly heading up(part of the letter "U" i talked about)and thats why they finish high. Getting the barrel too far out in front of your hand too early or hitting around the baseball will cause top spin. Remember, good pitchers are trying to change planes with the baseball so as a hitter we have to get on that plane in order to hit the ball solid. If the hitter swings down (thats one plane) and the pitcher in throwing down (thats same plane as hitter) they would have to meet the perfect point in that plane to even make contact..and if you make contact, its like slicing a golf ball...

hope this made sense to you...let me know
quote:
Originally posted by dPayton:
RJM - My bad - when I say wrapped - I mean at the end of the swing, not during the wristc0ck at the beginning. The guy at RBI wanted my son to end with his hands higher than shoulder height.


Then D I believe the guy at RBI is telling him wrong. The bat should not end up higher than his front shoulder. It should end up hitting him in the upper part of the back horizontal to the ground (you will sometimes notice MLB players with pine tar across that spot of their back). This keeps the swing plane from being an uppercut and having too small of hitting surface through the swing.

I do not agree with the bent front leg but could possibly see a slight bend as long as the front foot is locked in place. I think the moving back of the hands and the tap can be, but don't have to be, at the same time. I have seen success both ways. I think it is a personal preference. You just don't want to try to time getting the foot down and starting the swing. Batters need to get their foot down and keep it down.

Dennis Jordan at East Cobb is the best hitting instructor I have ever seen and he teaches the front elbow should drive down along your side which puts the bat hitting you in the upper part of the arm and vertically across the upper back. If you have seen or played his 15U Astros teams it is hard to argue with his methods.

If you are going to look at MLB players you need to look at players that hit the same style as your son (Power HR hitters, gap to gap hitters, slap hitters, etc) to see how their swings are. Each of these is different.

Maybe there are some pieces that are correct about both instructions. Finding a way to incorporate the best pieces is the challenge.
Last edited by 2014_Lefty_Dad
quote:
Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
ec_dad,

go to my post above and check out the pic. your telling everyone that the bat doesnt have a slight upper cut? manny can hit a bit


Manny is a HR hitter that is not trying to hit line drives and balls in the gap. If your going to swing for the fence every time, then of course you need swing up to lift the ball, but most players are not that type.

And that picture of Manny hitting is a terrible example of hitting mechanics. That back shoulder is not slightly dipped, it is way down. The bat head is dropped back behind the plate. Just because it is a picture does not mean it was a good swing or a good hit.

Manny is like Gary Sheffield. You can't teach ballplayers to swing like that and be successful.
Last edited by 2014_Lefty_Dad
quote:
Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
ok, your entitled to your opinion as am i, i'll stick with my way tho...go google the little player in the league who hits 1 hr a yr and his swing will be the same...

a homerun IS a miss hit line drive...by bout 1 cm


You are right, everyone has their own opinions, interpretations, and styles in how they go about coaching mechanics. Which is where I think this post really started. Or at least the question around, how to deal with it when you get a coach that wants you to use a style different than you were taught.

Here is a link to a photo of Dustin Pedroia. I think the two biggest differences between his swing and Manny's in the two pictures is the location of the pitch. Manny's was down and away, Dustin's is up. Dustin does have his front leg slightly bent and his bat head is parallel to the ground for more contact surface in the swing plane. Now of course that changes somewhat depending on where the pitch is located, but with his swing in the photo, his bat will end up hitting him in the back shoulder.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/...210998&playerId=6393
Last edited by 2014_Lefty_Dad
quote:
Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
good pics, all slightly hitting the ball on the up like ive stated


I not disagreeing with that statement, I am just arguing the point of RBI on where the hands should end up.

Here is a great link of Chipper Jones' swing analysis. It shows both your point, and mine.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pro..._LH_1B_ToCF_001.html


Look at some of the other hitters on that site, as well, these are great.
Last edited by 2014_Lefty_Dad
I continue to have trouble visualizing a hitter dropping his back shoulder, hitting the ball with the bat on a slight incline, and being able to apply backspin, which is so critical in ball flight.
From the sources of hitting I consider pretty reliable, my understanding is that keeping the back shoulder higher, starting with the hands high, staying inside the ball and throwing your hands directly to the ball were/are critical to driving the ball, creating back spin, and avoiding top spin.
Texas & EC,

Sounds like your both talking similar points, but just expressing it differently. Perhaps this is the problem that the OP is having with the academy & the coach-although I strongly disagree with the bent knee.

Some food for thought:
1). The best swing is the one that allows you to adjust to the pitch that is thrown.
2). Considering #1, each swing will have some variation, however big or small, which leads to the finish not always being the same.
3). Finish often has more to do with a hitter's style than the substance of his core mechanics.
4). Still photos often only tell a small part of the story. You don't see the point of contact, what happened just before, just after. etc.
5). If analyzed with frame-by-frame video, you will see that most all MLBer's have a firm front leg right around contact, some for longer than others, also a product of the pitch. BTW-Chipper Jones is truely a great professional hitter. That was not one of his best swings. He actually got jammed, but adjusted mid-swing and was able to muscle the ball back up the middle.
6). MLBer's can and do occasionally hit a ball well, even a HR, when fooled, or not having the "perfect swing". The pitching is pretty good up there, you know? But they are the best hitters in the world, big, strong athletes in their prime, it's going to happen, but that doesn't mean that it was a good swing. If it was then why do they not swing like that all the time?

JMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
I continue to have trouble visualizing a hitter dropping his back shoulder, hitting the ball with the bat on a slight incline, and being able to apply backspin, which is so critical in ball flight.

I have no comment on the batter's mechanics or his shoulder. However, on the issue of backspin, the path of the bat--upward or downward angle-- is of secondary importance compared to what physicists call the impact parameter. A large impact parameter simply means a more glancing collision.

The initial trajectory of the ball and the spin of the baseball are closely linked. Any pitched ball which is hit in the air--not a grounder--will have backspin, and lots of it. It's hard for most of us to visualize exactly how the impact of the bat and ball produces spin, but it is easier to predict the intial trajectory. If the head of the bat is traveling horizontally at the time of impact, and the point of tangency (the first point of contact) between the bat and the ball is below the midpoint of the ball, which also implies above the centerline of the bat, the ball will be hit above a horizontal trajectory. The lower the point of tangency on the ball, the steeper the upward angle of launch.

If the blow is glancing enough, the ball will be hit almost straight up--the familiar popup to the catcher. And the ball will have extreme backspin, because the ball will "roll" over the surface of the bat. The converse is true. In order to get topspin, the batted ball will necessarily have an initial downward direction.

If the batter can make contact at the midpoint of the ball, there would be, roughly speaking, no spin in either direction. More correctly, the bat would need to travel upwards at the same angle, say 15 degrees, that the pitch is travels downwards, and the point of contact 15 degrees below horizontal, in order to get zero spin. A horizontal swing travels downwards at 15 degrees relative to the direction of the pitch, and that swing produces backspin, and a slightly downward trajectory, if the bat contacts the ball 15 degrees down from the midpoint.

So think about a swing in which the direction of the bat is horizontal as it contacts the ball. Compare that to a swing which hits the same spot on the ball, but which is traveling downwards at 10 degrees. The downward swing will cause about 15% greater backspin, but it also will send the ball on a trajectory which is 10 degrees lower. The lower trajectory swamps the effect of additional backspin, and the batted ball will fly a shorter distance.

Want to get more backspin so you can hit the ball farther? Contact a little bit lower on the ball.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
TR - The only reason I know a little bit about the swing is from RBI. I was amazed at how little I did know before my son started going there. I still take him there because my son can be a PITA at times with me trying to show him things - the dad/son thing. Smile Also, the guy at RBI can pick up on stuff much, much quicker than I.

I'm glad I found this site, you guys have been great.
quote:
quote:
And that picture of Manny hitting is a terrible example of hitting mechanics. That back shoulder is not slightly dipped, it is way down.
It's perfect mechanics. It's obviously a low pitch. The swing is parallel to his shoulders as it should be.


yeah manny may have the best rh swing of all time...those are flawless mechanics guys...bottom line for a hitter, to me, you have to get on plane with the baseball. Pitchers throw off a hill. If a hitter doesnt get in the hitting zone quickly and have and meet the ball on the same plane, they will never be a consistant hitter. Back shoulder allows this to happen
Texas,

Manny is certainly the best RH hitter of this generation, and in the end maybe the best ever. Pujuols is certainly building a case. If you look past all the bs with Manny (I know-that can be hard to do), he has a tremendous knowledge of the strike zone and the pitchers, and great pitch recognition. He works hard, studies hard. And here is the thing-he lets the ball get deeper than anyone in baseball before committing his swing. Cut thru the bs and watch him, because it might be a while before you see RH hitter like him.
Last edited by getagoodpitchtohit
getagoodpitchtohit,

Yeah the bs can be hard to handle sometimes but as far as a hitter goes, top flight. If kids want to copy somebody, that guy is the guy to copy.

found some of these points interesting:
see what ted williams says about a "level swing" not level to the ground but the ball...ball is coming in on an angle so we gotta get on that angle

Why do we teach hitters to hit the "top-half" of the ball - when PITCHERS are taught to get hitters to HIT the "top-half" of the ball? Does this make sense? Hitters should be doing the exact OPPOSITE of what the pitchers want them to do!

60 years ago Ted Williams said, "The hips lead the way." Why do we think this hitting concept has changed down through the years? Why do we think we're SMARTER than the the "World's Greatest Hitter?"

60 years ago Ted Williams said, "The hitter must swing level to the ball - not level to the ground." Again, why do we think we're smarter and know more than the the "World's Greatest Hitter?"

Pitching coaches teach pitchers to THROW ground balls. So, why do hitting coaches teach hitters to HIT ground balls?

Why do we teach the "level" swing? How does a hitter swing "level" at a pitch at the knees? In fact, how does a hitter hit ANY low pitch without dipping the rear shoulder?

Why do coaches instruct hitters to swing with "level" shoulders and "stay back" AT THE SAME TIME?
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
I continue to have trouble visualizing a hitter dropping his back shoulder, hitting the ball with the bat on a slight incline, and being able to apply backspin, which is so critical in ball flight.
From the sources of hitting I consider pretty reliable, my understanding is that keeping the back shoulder higher, starting with the hands high, staying inside the ball and throwing your hands directly to the ball were/are critical to driving the ball, creating back spin, and avoiding top spin.


Wow..

How do you keep the back shoulder "higher"? Higher than what? The front shoulder? You'd be swinging straight down.

"throwing the hands" ?

"creating back spin" ?

It's not hard really...at least to visualize it.

Look / watch the best hitters in the MLB. Try to do what they do, how they do it.

Swing level to the shoulders. Keep the back elbow close to the body on the swing. Use the core muscles to initiate and drive the swing.

Watch the ground balls stop and the line drives start.
quote:
Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:
Texas,

Manny is certainly the best RH hitter of this generation, and in the end maybe the best ever. Pujuols is certainly building a case. If you look past all the bs with Manny (I know-that can be hard to do), he has a tremendous knowledge of the strike zone and the pitchers, and great pitch recognition. He works hard, studies hard. And here is the thing-he lets the ball get deeper than anyone in baseball before committing his swing. Cut thru the bs and watch him, because it might be a while before you see RH hitter like him.


Anybody see that article on Manny's swing..

Here it is

http://insider.espn.go.com/vid...nsdr_mod_mlb_***_***
Texas,

You are preaching my gospel!
Ted was THE greatest hitter of all time. Hit .388 39 HR 119 RBI at 39 yrs. old!

Thing is, hitting was just hitting, with most of the principals that you mentioned, until the 70's when super light aluminum bats for youth and astro turf came around. Then you could cheat. Didn't have to have the mechanics to hit the ball hard. Just whip that aluminum bat and watch the ball fly, or slap a ball on the turf and watch it take off. New hitting principles started being advanced by some. Thus began the fight.

After 2 decades or so of this, astro turf is almost completely gone, youth baseball has bat restrictions, and highschool age swing wood bat equivilants and even play in wood bat tourneys in summer and fall. Those old tried and true principles are making a comeback in a big way.

Most of the MLBer's swings now reflect these principles. That's why so many daddy's out there watch an MLB game, and then question why their son isn't being taught to swing like the best hitters in the world. ESPN, internet, and video analysis has made this possible.
Last edited by getagoodpitchtohit
quote:
Manny is certainly the best RH hitter of this generation, and in the end maybe the best ever.

This is obviously coming from a ManRam fan. Nothing against Manny's swing or hitting results which are both great...

No doubt Manny is an amazing hitter, but I find best ever a little strong… Even the best now could be strongly argued. In fact, by the numbers he is not the best currently.

If we take the average production based on 162 games, look at these results… Also consider the ball parks each has played in.

Ramirez – 184 hits - 39 doubles – 41 homeruns – 133 RBI - .314 batting ave - .411 OBP - .594 SLG – 1.005 OPS – 128 strike outs – 94 BB

Pujols – 200 hits - 45 doubles – 42 homeruns – 129 RBI - .334 batting average - .425 OBP - .624 SLG – 1.049 OPS – 66 strike outs – 91 BB

These numbers above might say that Pujols is the best. After all, he hits .20 points higher with better power numbers and strikes out half as much.

Might as well copy him if we want to copy someone.
PG,

I shouldn't have said certainly. I also said that Pujols is building a case, Manny just has a 6-7 year head start. Albert and Manny's swings exhibit the same core princples, Albert just does some things at the start and finish that would be harder for young hitters to emulate because Albert is such a big, strong man. He is the best high ball hitter in baseball. Why do they keep throwing it there???
Roy Oswalt is not his biggest fan. Check Alberts history with him. He has made him his perssonal BP pitcher over his career!
texasbaseballcoach,

Too much work to do the averages, but at age 29 here were these results for each. Both having 9 years at that time.

Ramirez – 277 homeruns Pujols – 323 homeruns
Ramirez – 929 RBI Pujols – 995 RBI

Ramirez - First 9 years batting average. .170 - .269 - .308 - .309 - .328 - .294 - .333 - .351 - .306

Pujols – First 9 years batting average. .329 - .314 - .359 - .331 - .333 - .331 - .327 - .357 - .315 (so far this year)

I’d have to give the nod to Pujols.

getagoodpitchtohit, Wow that is a long name! Smile
But a good name!

I wasn't really arguing. Just wanted to bring up the amazing career that Albert is having. Not just his swing, but also prefer him as a role model.
Last edited by PGStaff
I thought the most revealing statistics comparing those two is the number of strikeouts. Manny strikes out twice as much. Pujols was drafted as a shortstop so he should be a good 1B. Come to think of it, wasn't Manny also drafted as a shortstop?

Both are good models of a great swing. I know this might sound weird, but Mark McGwire had one of the best fundamental swings I can remember. I think lots of people over look that because he was so big and a power hitter. Of course, now days he has lost a lot of respect, but his swing was a beauty technically IMO.
Great archives there 20dad!

Why wouldn't we want to teach what this man is saying? I just don't understand. Did you see the way he dissected the swings of 2 of the best hitters of their generation, and took the conversation to a level that was a little over their head? The Science of Hitting should be required reading.

Just a reminder that Williams .388 39 HR 119 RBI at 39 yrs. old! Steroidball may have clouded just how wonderful a feat that was.
PG

Coach Mandl will tell you that Manny is possibly the best outfielder that he has ever had at George Washington HS

They recently had a great piece on MLBTV with regard to Manny going back to his HS days with Coach Mandl----they even went so far as to compare his swing back then to now---they had video clips side by and nothing has changed at all in his swing and I do not think he ever took a lesson from a "pro"
TR and 20 Dad;

That was a "great" article in Sports Illustrated.
A classic. I study it constantly and quiz young and old players.

Steve Mandl traveled to Australia in 1998 with three players from George Washington HS, including Manny's nephew. The nephew had the similar swing as Manny.

Last week, my son [SSK Promotions Manager] visited one hour in Dodger Stadium with Manny. They discussed hitting.

On our team in 1997, was Dave La Roche, Adam La Roche and Gerald Laird.

Bob
That was a great article (Williams, Mattingly and Boggs) thanks for the link. It just reinforces in my mind that many times, even the great hitters, don't truly know how they do it, they JUST do it.

I do know that there are plenty of coaches / academies out there teaching to SWING DOWN on the ball. And alot of 'em are getting big money to do it. It's frustrating as coach. Case in point:

I coached a kid a few years ago. The kid is a man-child. Towers above everyone his own age, cat like reflexes, speed, just a PURE natural athlete.

I worked with him using his body to generate power / bat speed and with his already over-abundance of natural ability, he was flat CRUSHING the ball. coaches regularly walked him a couple of times a game.

Fast forward..he's 12 now. He's STILL growing. Still an unbelieveable athlete. However he's playing for an Academy team. The coach there is a young guy who played some college ball and coached as an asst at a college.

He's a big believer in "hands to the ball"...

I saw the difference in this kid's swing (really the whole team)...we pitched him inside and he never managed more than a couple of hard ground balls. This guy is teaching him to extend his arms before contact, and use his HAND as the primary way to hit the baseball.

you get it out over the plate...he'll hurt it. You tie him up, he can't get the bat head on it.

We were playing his team, and I overheard the Coach, tell his pitchers to "tie us up inside" right before the game started.

We had several line shots into LF and LC that inning. All on inside fastballs.

My #4 guy came up. First pitch, inside FB..he hits it about 250ft foul to LF. Next pitch, same thing, except a bit further. The next pitch was inside, but down below the knees. He hit this one over the LF fence....

I heard the pitcher tell his Coach "All of 'em were inside Coach".

Long winded sure...

But the point is this...in my lowly opinion.

If a hitter has problems driving inside pitches HARD, then more than likely he's not using his core, keeping the back elbow close to the body, to generate power / bat speed.

I see it everyday. I see kids that are GOOD athletes, who are several years older and much bigger than some of my 12U guys, and the 12U guys will hit the ball harder and farther than the older guys.

It's not about size and strength. It's about using the core to generate the power / speed to hit the ball..meeting the ball on an upward plane, and hitting the ball in the air.

Again, just my 2 cents.
Last edited by ctandc
Had this happen with my son it ended up ruining his confidence and destroyed his development. Took his effectiveness away as a control pitcher with great "stuff" as they tried to turn him into a power pitcher. He went from great command and control to a two pitch very hittable shell "no-wonder, no mystery, next pitch fastball down the middle, eeekism".

Started with going from Hi-Low pitching strategies which most coaches don't even know what that means, to just rock and fire, goon-ism.

After spending countless hours and dollars having your kid trained you will find it all goes out the window with a coach that calls all the pitch locations and type of pitch. Pitchers are not allowed to use their own knowledge, brains and intuitive senses to get batters out. Pitchers have been reduced to 90+ mph pitching machines. Don't think, don't figure anything out for yourself just rock and fire. And you wonder why pitching is no longer like those we use to watch like Sandy and Drysdale. Coaches have killed the art of pitching.

If I were you I would take your son away from this goon and stay with the pro who has taught your son proper mechanics. As your son gets bigger and stronger the mechanics will serve him well as he gets into hitting with the wooden bats.

More great kids are ruined at the high school level then anywhere else in baseball development.
JMO
Last edited by BBkaze
I've seen a right handed kid hit a lead-off homerun dead center, next at bat a triple off the right field gap fence, and then a double off the left field gap fence. Each time he went back to the dugout the HS coach make a criticism of the kid's swing. The kid's private batting coach has worked with pros that are currently in the majors. The private batting coach can not believe what the HS coach tells the batter.
Last edited by MTS
Fellas - You've seen exactly what I'm seeing now. Obviously there are some very good HS coaches out there. The problem as I see it is - these days is a LOT of kids are going to academies learning how to do things the right way(or so we hope). Parents are paying big bucks for these instructions. So now the kid goes to a JV/varsity coach who's full of himself (or just flat wrong) and tells the kid to do it this way or that way. The kid gets confused, comes home and tells mom and dad about it. What does mom and dad do? That's the situation I was put in and exactly why I asked this. Seems the concensus is to be quiet and do as the coach says. I have to agree with that because there really is no other choice besides changing schools and that's not going to happen. You can voice your concerns(and my son did) but that likely will get you nowhere except the doghouse. It's a very difficult situation and I personally think it happens quite often.
dpayton

Nothing against academies , my stepson is a pitching instructor at one and he is a darn good instructor, but what makes their instructors more right than a HS or Travel Team coach--just because you give them a check at the academy every week does not necessarily make them better

I truly like your final line " I personally think it happens quite often" AHA --you think it does---but does it actually happen???
Last edited by TRhit
I do believe this can be a problem. It can help if coaches and instructors communicate.

Several years ago I had a friend bring his son in. He wanted me to watch his son pitch and give him a tip or two. The kid was playing for the top youth travel team in our area.

After watching him I noticed a few things he needed to correct. Main thing he was opening up way too early and way too much. This was causing him to throw with less velocity, less accuracy and most importantly he was not using his body to help his arm. So I worked with him for a couple weeks and the improvement was very noticable.

Then one day, a guy walks in and wants to talk to me. He was the "pitching" coach for this organization. He was mad because I was teaching things differently than he did. I asked him about his opinions and quickly realized that he didn't know the first thing about pitching. He said he had always done things that way. I told him that he was always doing those things wrong. He took that as an insult and left. I later found out he was a dad of another player on the team.

Fast forward a couple years... I walked out into our building and saw this guy there working with one of his pitchers. He was basically teaching the kid exactly what he argued about years before. I did talk to him and he asked if he could pick my mind on pitching. He also asked me if I would work with his son who was in high school by this time.

BTW, the original pitcher, my friends son, I continued to work with. He ended up being the top pitcher in that organization. He also had a great high school and college career.

I've never understood why private instructors and coaches would disagree that much. That should only happen when one of them doesn't know what they're doing. I think it's important that people understand their limitations and real knowledge. I know when I talk to guys like Rick Peterson it's not the time to disagree... It's time to listen and learn!

After all this... I've always told kids... You must have the approach that your coach is always right! Sometimes this can be very difficult. It's just that the other way can get in your way. It's just another of the many adjustments a player needs to be able to deal with. In this case (instructor vs. coach) I recommend asking your instructor to talk to your coach. If an instructor is being paid by you, he should be willing to help you with this potential problem. When the coach and instructor communicate, the player benefits.
Last edited by PGStaff
PG - I think it's a pride issue. No one wants to be told he/she has been doing it wrong for 10 years! Smile For me - I like to listen to what everyone says. I certainly don't know everything and would hate to think I did. What I don't like is a unyielding, opinionated guy that preaches "it's my way or the highway." BUT, that's going to happen and you as the player(like you mentioned) has to listen and do as the coaches say.

I my situation - the instructor is an hour away. Even if I were to ask him to come here, the coach would ahve no part in it - he's steadfast in his beliefs.
quote:
PG - I think it's a pride issue. No one wants to be told he/she has been doing it wrong for 10 years!


dPayton,

This can be a problem. I wouldn't "like" hearing you've been doing it wrong for 10 years. But if it were truly wrong I would "want" to hear about it. No sense in being proud about doing things wrong.

No person alive knows everything when it comes to baseball. Those who think they do can present a problem. We always talk about the ability to adjust and how important that is for players. It is equally important for coaches, instructors and parents. IMO

Communication is important, unfortunately it takes two in order to communicate. Diplomacy is still worth a try. If all else fails... make the necessary adjustments!
A couple of weeks ago, after a few days of rain, I rented time in a facility so my son could get in some hitting against Pro Batter. After programming in fifty pitches and getting my son started, I decided to listen to the hitting instruction taking place in the next lane. What I learned is just because a guy played minor league ball doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about. Yet people fork over money to ex pros as if they have a pedigree to teach the game. Some ex pros achieved when they played, don't really understand how they achieved, and can't teach. I've also seen instructors who know all the terminology to impress the parents, but can't teach. Don't assume because you pay for instruction it's correct.

In terms of dealing with the school coach I only have two questions. Who makes out the lineup, the coach or the instructor? Do you want to play?
quote TRhit:
"Nothing against academies , my stepson is a pitching instructor at one and he is a darn good instructor, but what makes their instructors more right than a HS or Travel Team coach--just because you give them a check at the academy every week does not necessarily make them better"

TR,
It would seem to me that a full time baseball instructor who goes to seminars and is committed to learning his trade is more qualified than a part time HS coach whose main job is in the classroom. I know their are knowledgeable HS coaches out there, who know their stuff, but I believe their are many more who don't.

My experience tells me that most HS coaches in my area are not qualified to teach baseball. They do their best but are more managers of kids than teachers of baseball. They don't teach kids how to throw and hit. They put them in positions they feel they are capable of handling and instruct them at that position. If a kid is struggling hitting they don't take them aside and analyze their swing. They try to motivate and lead but I don't think many are qualified to instruct any more than a dad is.

I am not complaining or bashing these coaches. It just is what it is. I would much rather have my son get instruction from a full time academy coach who is trained to teach hitting than his high school coach who is trained to teach biology.

All that being said, I think it puts a kid in a tough spot if a HS coach insists he swings his way. But I also find it hard to believe that a HS would change a kid's swing if the kid is tearing the cover off the ball.
Fills ... The experience your son and you have at his academy is not the norm. My son is fortunate to have good instruction where his team trains. But there are a lot of "other" academies. All it takes to open an academy is some cash. The hard part is obtaining quality instructors.
PUHD,
I agree with the repetition part of your comment. Repeating a properly taught swing thousands of times over the winter is invaluable.

Many kids in our area train at the same academy as my son. When you go to a high school game around here you can spot these kids with their first swing.

RJM,
you are correct about opening academies. Seems one or two opens every year around here. One or two closes every year also!
Last edited by fillsfan
bbkaze, the problem is that there are very few so called coaches who have any idea whatsoever of what consist of proper pitching skills so the body from the ground up does all the work and the arm just goes along for the ride,which is prevalent even in the major leagues due to the fact that before anyone learns much of anything there must be an experienced and knowledgeable teacher of the subject involved there, like you say just get out and take all day to timidly walk off down the hill with absolutely no push off the rubber,with entirely too short of stride six inches on either side of the line,which ever is convenient at the time time, then low and behold open up the hips before the front foot landing and insanely attempt to generate whatever momentum and power with the arm which under these circumstances is all there is left to throw with these are just some of the lack of pitching skills along with improper instruction.
people must learn and realize that the physical movements of baseball are, energetic, explosive driven momentum quick under controlled movements, there is not any movement on the field where a player just stands there and does whatever their immediate task at hand is at the time without completing that task with, energetic, explosive, controlled,momentum driven movements, so why are pitchers not to taught how to use their body's starting from the ground up properly, generating their pitching power from the ground up through the HIPS""THE LARGER MUSCLES OF THE STRONGER LOWER HALF OF THE BODY" and then at the front foot contact in a direct line to their target unleash that lower body power which has traveled from the ground up to and through the hips and has traveled up into the upper body and is ready to explode into and through the arm and out through the hand and fingertips on to the intended target while the back follows on forward into a low flat back follow through position letting the hand and arm end up in a dropped down position slightly off center to and in a relaxed position to enable the total throwing power to dissipate into the large muscles of the lower body instead of dissipating into the smaller muscles of the upper body and disallowing the arm to relax at the finish of it's powerfull throwing action created from the ground up through the body into and through the arm and out through the finger tips
Due to the fact that very few pitchers are not taught to or how to finish out their pitches and absolutely do not ever even get to their finish position and consequently are not in any way familiar with their finish position I teach pitchers by starting them out from the finish position back through to their starting position.
There is so much more to it all but I have to go now , I certainly do hope my comments are of help, If not let me know, If so, let me know. Lets talk hitting and other aspects also.

Don Ervin.
kom_ervin@yahoo.com
TOO BAD it's inaccurate.

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/david_kopp.htm

Here's TPM's son and Rivera . NO push off the rubber. The problem is too many people think they have answer and are puzzled why their version of the truth is not taught.
Watch the action of the back leg. It is extended as the arm drives forward. The toe is dragged to stabilize the lower body as the arm drives forward.

Another guy fishing for business.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
BHD are you saying that the only way to pitch is how they do it in the video with the straight leg?

Check out Cole Hamels

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/cole_hamels.htm

Micah Owings (harder to see but you can see a bent leg)

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/micah_owings.htm

Tim Lincecum

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/tim_lincecum.htm

Joba Chamberlain

http://www.pitchingclips.com/p...joba_chamberlain.htm

Joel Zumaya (not a great video b/c it's a bullpen so he's not going 100% but you can see the leg bend)

http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/joel_zumaya.htm

Justin Verlander

http://www.pitchingclips.com/p...justin_verlander.htm

I found just as many guys who don't push off the rubber as I did who do push. There is nothing wrong with either one. The pitcher has to find what is comfortable to them and use it.
No I am not saying that. What I am saying is that you don't push off the rubber. All your clips prove my point. To emphasize pushing off the back leg is bad advice. I have clips of ML pitching coaches emphasizing that point. I would post them but they are on VHS and I don't have the equipment to convert it to digital.
In all clips you will see the toe drag which is done to stabilize the lower body so the upper body can unload. That is basic physics. Also to say the arm is along for the ride is total garbage.
Yes everyone knows the whole body is involved right down to the fingers.
I see lots of pitchers who collapse the back leg and there is nothing wrong with that, It is still not pushing off the back leg any more than when you walk down the street..
Don is promoting his business!
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
I am not sure why DK was used as an example, and honestly after reading the post from Don I have no clue what he is saying. I suggest that in explanation it's kept simple, for the simple people like myself. Big Grin
Coach, BHD is 100% correct. I know there was a discussion about this a while back so I asked a pitching coach about the "push". There is no such thing, but there is a force that is generated by the leg and foot, but only a result of everything moving forward and should not be confused as a "push" from the back leg or foot.
In teaching young pitchers to pitch, the word "push" should never be used in instruction.
And there is not one pitcher that I saw that you posted that "pushes" off of the rubber.
Well looks like I'm wrong and probably won't be the last time. I have seen and heard guys at clinics use the word push in their presentations. Maybe I misunderstood them.

Although after watching Lincecum again could you say he does push because he gains a lot of ground towards the plate when he pitches. That momentum has to be created from somewhere. Not trying to backdoor prove my point - just talking pitching.

Also, check out the Tom Seaver video. In one shot it looks like he's about a foot in front of the rubber. I'm not sure because the monitor I'm using isn't the greatest so it might be something else but it looks to me he's not in contact with the rubber.

BHD that is a great site to check out the mechanics of pitchers.
This topic is starting to remind me of an infamous hitting debate. IMO this is merely a protracted argument about terminology, rather than technique. Some call it push off. Most used to call it that, so perhaps it's an old-school description. Some now take umbrage with the term because it implies some sort of undue effort from the lower extremity and de-emphasizes the upper extremity. Fine.

All of the pitchers cited very effectively use their entire bodies in a highly choreographed kinetic chain of events to propel the ball forward with maximum velocity. No one here has argued that the muscles of the lower leg are not firing during the final phase of the delivery, resulting in active extension of the leg towards the direction of the plate. And yes, a similar active extension is present in the terminal swing phase of gait. Try walking down the street without it. Better yet, try getting 12-14 inches out in front of the rubber like Tim L. without it.

Lets all call it something new please, something PC perhaps so no-one is offended any longer, then maybe we can all move on to something new.

Happy Fourth everyone. Smile
It is very important to refrain from using the concept of pushing off the rubber. It isn't just terminology. The MLB pitching coach that I videoed took 20 minutes to labor the point
Linsecum has a giant stride and that makes him appear to push off. In order to accelerate the arm and upper body the lower body has to stabilize. It has to become the fulcrum that allows the arm to get max torque. Try jumping and throwing at the same time. Very hard to do.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Who are the people who determine what "bad coaching: is ?

If you parents know more than the coaches/instructors then why don't you coach?

Tom, you're a broken record. I'd venture a guess that 50% of your 20K+ posts is some type of put down towards parents. Interestingly, these parents who are so interested in their son's success in baseball and college are the every same parents that fund your select baseball business. The demeanor illustrated in your posts do not illustrate the attitude I'd be looking for in the vendor with whom I am doing business.

quote:
How come parents. moms and dads , ....


Other than step-parents, are there any other classifications of parents? You're either a mom or a dad, right?
BBHD,
So by analogy it must be difficult to jump and hit a tennis serve at the same time? -- NOT! Or are they swinging their arms so fast it pulls them into the air? Heck no, they're pushing off and jumping into the air.

You are delving into semantics. Every one of those pitchers is pushing off with their drive leg. The only issue is what cue happens to be the most effective in teaching a given pitcher. Sometimes "pushing off" is a bad cue for some pitchers (because for some pitchers it gets them pushing upwards instead of driving toward the plate). Sometimes pushing off is a good cue for some pitchers because they aren't using their legs enough (personally I prefer emphasizing a long stride).

The same goes for all those "clueless" instructors. The fact is they may (or may not) be using an effective cue to get a player to make a necessary change even if the cue is "wrong". The best instructors adjust their teaching to the individual. There's an article out there somewhere about Ted Williams teaching at a clinic and telling a kid with an uppercut that he needed to learn to swing down on the ball. Many of you would pillorize any instructor today who would say that to a student, yet it was done by the greatest hitter/instructor of all time.
Last edited by CADad
quote:
In order to accelerate the arm and upper body the lower body has to stabilize.

The ultimate in stability is a nearly static stance. Come to think of it, rigor mortis is pretty darn stable. The lower extremity has to do much, much more than stabilize the UE in the act of throwing a ball. The LE is absolutely quite active in the delivery and, regardless of the terminology, the action is away from the rubber.

CADad has this right IMO. This is all about which cue is most effective in teaching the action to young pitchers.
Last edited by spizzlepop
Tennis is a sport I know well. In tennis you elevate to get an angle to drive low to the net. You don't drive by jumping and your lead foot doesn't leave the ground until you have hit the ball. That is to get into the court. There is no analogy to using a racket. Any sport that uses the arm to throw requires a stable lower body. Like throwing a football, discuss etc.
Keep teaching what pro pitching says is wrong.

Maybe you guys subscribe to the happy Gilmor school of golf.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
I know tennis a lot better than you do and I've faced off against some of the top players in the world (in my day) in ATP tournaments. I fully realize people are trying to get a better angle for the serve by jumping at the same time as they drive forward into the court in order to generate more velocity on the serve. They are also swinging a racket at a moving ball and with that much longer lever can still strike the ball accurately while jumping. That is the point I'm making with my tennis analogy. Lincecum is thinking long stride, but he pushes off hard in order to achieve that long stride. By thinking long stride he keeps from pushing upwards, which as I noted in my earlier post, is not a good thing in pitching.

BTW, I can beat you at golf also. Smile
Last edited by CADad
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
BBHD,
So by analogy it must be difficult to jump and hit a tennis serve at the same time? -- NOT! Or are they swinging their arms so fast it pulls them into the air? Heck no, they're pushing off and jumping into the air.

You are delving into semantics. Every one of those pitchers is pushing off with their drive leg. The only issue is what cue happens to be the most effective in teaching a given pitcher. Sometimes "pushing off" is a bad cue for some pitchers (because for some pitchers it gets them pushing upwards instead of driving toward the plate). Sometimes pushing off is a good cue for some pitchers because they aren't using their legs enough (personally I prefer emphasizing a long stride).

The same goes for all those "clueless" instructors. The fact is they may (or may not) be using an effective cue to get a player to make a necessary change even if the cue is "wrong". The best instructors adjust their teaching to the individual. There's an article out there somewhere about Ted Williams teaching at a clinic and telling a kid with an uppercut that he needed to learn to swing down on the ball. Many of you would pillorize any instructor today who would say that to a student, yet it was done by the greatest hitter/instructor of all time.


If you look at the clip of Rivera, he is not pushing off of a rubber and if there is one he's not even close. So the chain of events doesn't come from pushing off of the rubber for him.

BHD, thanks for the compliment!
quote:
Rivera is almost lobbing the ball in that clip. I've got clips of him pitching and he very definitely pushes off. The rear knee straightens out forcefully when he's pitching. He isn't pushing off in that clip because he's not trying to throw it hard.



Slow motion not lobbing it. It is slow motion so you can see what is really taking place.
quote:
My son has been going to a baseball academy(run by guy whose managed double AA)


It seems like if you were affiliated anyway with professional baseball it automatically qualifies you to coach at the high school or college level. I am not saying this man is not but everybody always seems to suggest that there son is being taught or coached by someone with those credentials. Like everything else some are very good and some are not. But it seems like schools are impressed by the pedigree of professional. I coached high school for close to 30 years and the coach who impressed me the most was one who never played in high school or college. he was a high school english teacher who coached for close to 40 years. His teams were well schooled in the fundamentals of the game and you better play your A game to beat them.
Wow. This thread has me afraid - very afraid.
Interviews are taking place today for our new HS coach. There are three candidates. One of our assistant coaches, one assistant coach at our #1 rival school, and I can't get any info on the third. The key at our school is whether or not the coach can make the right parents happy. No one lasts for very long. I did hear that the guy in the NYT story below was interested. I heard he was a good coach, and maybe the parents would leave him alone...

June 2005
Brawl Instigator Suspended


The International League suspended Richmond Braves (Class AAA - Atlanta) outfielder Esix Snead for 10 games and fined him an undisclosed amount for instigating a bench-clearing brawl in Monday night's game between the Braves and the Syracuse SkyChiefs (Class AAA - Toronto). Braves Manager Pat Kelly was suspended for a game and the league also fined Kelly and 20 members of the Braves for their roles in the fight. The suspension was handed down Thursday, the day after the league fined 20 Syracuse players and a coach.

Snead took exception to an inside pitch thrown by Syracuse pitcher Matt Bush in the second inning and had to be restrained by the Syracuse catcher.

Then, after working a walk, Snead charged Bush from the first-base line and struck him with his batting helmet.
Last edited by 2Bmom
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
The key at our school is whether or not the coach can make the right parents happy


if the above is the truth the question is Why?


It most likely means parents of these kids are way more involved in their kids baseball experience at the high school then they're supposed to be. These are the moms and dads wiith a lot of time on their hands, with nothing better to do and can hang around the school, are constantly hanging around the coach, make sure they run the booster club and dads taking summer legion teams to guarentee their kids make the team and play and also be on the ins with the coach. There are coaches out there who are influence by these types of parents and put players on varsity, start players or give them a longer leash than more deserving players whos parents take more of a support role for the players and the team and let the head coach just do his job.
Last edited by zombywoof
zombywoof is right on the money, except that at our school, my experience is that these parents don't hang around the coach (they tried that and it didn't work), they hang around the principal and the AD.

Our coach search is over. They hired one of our assistant coaches...who has a son on the team, and another son who will be a freshman when the older one graduates. They are good players, but it does make me glad that 2B doesn't play their position.

He's not a bad guy. He loves the boys and the game. And he will not try to change 2B, at least I don't think so. So it could be worse. I was kind of pulling for Esix. Wink
quote:
they hang around the principal and the AD.


Yea...That too Big Grin.....And if a team of parents revolt and want a coach ousted, you know who they're gonna see about it Wink

With that said, there are legitimate reasons parents may go to the AD and principal and want a coach ousted such as getting the same complaints from players year in and year out about the same thing where it's not just one or two players but team-wide. There are coaches out there who run programs into the ground and in some of those instances, need to be replaced.
Last edited by zombywoof
quote:
they hang around the principal and the AD.


people do what you let them do.

a related story

A good baseball man was hired as a coach at a local school. He was not a young guy he was in his 50's been around quite a while. Knows his stuff. I recently found out after 2 seasons he stepped down. Why? Not from what went on on the field but what he had to put on with off. so what was accomplished here a good coach says why bother not worth it.

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