Balking

Can't view the video but there is nothing in the rulebook against deceiving the runner.  If as you describe and the motion is continuous without a pause in it...No balk.

video is up now

That's a balk in that video, from what I can see. It does look like he pauses during his second pump.

I'd say that's dang close...A balk should never be called because it could "deceive the runner" and an umpire should not use that phrase as an explanation for why he called the balk.  There actually has to be a rule breaking violation.  Just looking at that one pitch I would not call it but if he put a slight bit more hesitation making it a non continuous motion then I would. 

Here is the letter of the law: "failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery"

I'd call it a balk.

Here's my thought process:

It would have been more helpful if the umpire had given a reason mentioned in the rule book. Pitchers deceive runners all the time--it's part of the job description.

Similarity to Kershaw is irrelevant. My motto is, "Anything you see pros doing or wearing that looks cool is probably illegal in high school."

Whether it is a balk rests on the umpire's interpretation of "failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery."

You're banking on the "such as he habitually uses in his delivery" part of the rule.

In general, extra pumps and rotations are associated with the windup motion.

Even if two leg lifts could be considered parts of one continuous motion (and I'll wait for more experienced umpires to weigh in on that question), the momentary pause at the end of the first lift and drop makes it not be one continuous motion. It's more than a change of direction. It's a discernible pause that will inevitably confuse base runners, who are entitled to know when the pitcher comes set, when he starts his motion, and when he is committed to going home. 

Swampboy posted:

 

Even if two leg lifts could be considered parts of one continuous motion (and I'll wait for more experienced umpires to weigh in on that question), the momentary pause at the end of the first lift and drop makes it not be one continuous motion. It's more than a change of direction. It's a discernible pause that will inevitably confuse base runners, who are entitled to know when the pitcher comes set, when he starts his motion, and when he is committed to going home. 

Yes, they can, as long as something's still moving.

The rest of your sentence is why I've got a balk as you do.

Matt13 posted:

Swampboy posted:

 

Even if two leg lifts could be considered parts of one continuous motion (and I'll wait for more experienced umpires to weigh in on that question), the momentary pause at the end of the first lift and drop makes it not be one continuous motion. It's more than a change of direction. It's a discernible pause that will inevitably confuse base runners, who are entitled to know when the pitcher comes set, when he starts his motion, and when he is committed to going home. 

Yes, they can, as long as something's still moving.

The rest of your sentence is why I've got a balk as you do.

Thanks, Matt.

Side note:

The syntactical function of the phrase, "such as he habitually uses in his delivery" is often ignored by coaches and umpires who think it excuses eccentric illegal motions as long as a pitcher does them all the time.

It means nothing of the sort. If a pitcher commits an infraction, it should be called the first time. Umpires aren't authorized to ignore illegal motions until they have the opportunity to make sufficient observations to determine what is habitual for each pitcher.

What it does mean is that once the pitcher begins moving any part of his body in the manner he habitually uses in his delivery, then he is obligated to execute one continuous motion.

So in the wind-up is ok and not ok  from the stretch?   Again i find it odd that 1 in 40 umpires have called this a balk. He did call it a balk while he was in the stretch.

Why do it from the stretch at all?  Doesn't  it give runners an  advantage?

As a runner and a batter, that would bother me.  You can adjust to it, but I don't blame the ump for calling it even if it probably bothered him personally more than anything.  It doesn't appear to be a continuous motion because he actually does a freeze frame and restarts.  Kershaw doesn't do that.  When Kershaw does his "step over a dead rabbit" he's also breaking his hands at the same time, so we don't get a sense of being deceived.  Japanese pitchers will often do some type of pause in their delivery, but it's at the top of the leg lift, so it's less deceiving and not that difficult to adjust to.  

Not sure about the advantage to the runners, I would think it would give them more time to steal... I do know said video pitch was 93 and he has struck out 33 in 15 innings, so now it's becoming an issue in our district.  like I mentioned before, jupiter, ft. myers, lake point , never called a balk

Yeah, that's what I meant -- I see that and as a parent of a base-stealer it looks like he's taking a long time to deliver the ball.  But OTOH  it looks like the ball is getting to the catcher at warp speed so maybe that's a wash.

Looks like he took a page out of John Gants pitching rule book!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_8hONBmVSA

What's the reasoning for doing this?  How does he keep runners from stealing on him all the time?  I would tell my guys to go first move.

bacdorslider posted:

So in the wind-up is ok and not ok  from the stretch?   Again i find it odd that 1 in 40 umpires have called this a balk. He did call it a balk while he was in the stretch.

I can say I'd be less likely to call this in a windup than in a stretch (particularly in HS) because of advantage/disadvantage.

catcher going to alabama.... so they dont test him much but he's only had 6-7 base runners  so maybe its in the stretch that the ump does not like

CaCO3Girl posted:

Looks like he took a page out of John Gants pitching rule book!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_8hONBmVSA

not quite that bad

so what if in the wind up he does the double leg lift but doe not have a pause ?

As an umpire, I would not call this a balk.   I do not see anything in the video that indicates an illegal in the motion.   The foot does not appear to touch the ground before the second pump.  The motion does not appear to be a discernable (sp) pause.  I liken that to the hands coming set... if the hands only paused for that long in a traditional set position i would call a balk for not pausing... so why would the leg be any different?  Doing it every time / if there deception / intent to deceive is irrelevant to the rule.  I will say that if a man is on, once the leg starts down after the first lift, the pitcher is committed to the plate.  IF the pitcher were to throw to a base during the second leg pump, that would be a balk as the pitcher did not step directly toward the base.  Now the ump should not have been taken by surprise by this if he was watching the warm-ups before the game or in between innings... assuming the pitcher warmed up from the stretch.   

does the umpire have the right to decide what he feels is a balk?  Should there not be a rule that is broken?  in this case is it that the pause they feel is illegal?

A couple have you mentioned a balk from the wind up?  What purpose would calling that serve?  There are no runners on base.  I've never seen a balk called from the wind up...again, what would be the point?  As for this pitch...tough call.  At first I thought yes, but I don't think he paused and I've seen stranger things allowed.  The differences in what HS umps call/don't call can be ridiculously different depending on the guy.  We lost a District final game on a 2-out balk call in the bottom of the last inning a couple years ago.  Coach asked the ump to explain why he called a balk.....he said "because it was".  The game was at a college field.  The college coach is a former MLB pitcher (World Series ring)....he didn't see it...and even after watching the video replay he had no idea why the call was made.  I really think the balk is the most misunderstood call of all by both parents and umpires.  Fortunately for my son, he had worked or been coached by 3 former MLB guys over the years.  I don't think he's ever been called for one.

I guess a balk with no runners would really be an illegal pitch ? thus called a ball?  well for now since only one umpire has called it, either he's the best umpire in the world and the others are wrong,  of maybe on this one pitch ( which is not the video) he did balk. not sure... but for now we don;t change anything.

bacdorslider posted:

does the umpire have the right to decide what he feels is a balk?  Should there not be a rule that is broken?  in this case is it that the pause they feel is illegal?

In this instance ...Yes... it is a judgement call.  The rule states that a pitcher shall make one continuous motion.   If in the umpire's judgement the leg pump was a pause ... then it is a balk.  No reason not to explain "what he saw" in a civil conversation with the HC if questioned.  Can't guess what was in the head of the umpire when it was called.  You said he reasoned it as "deceiving the runner"... there is nothing in the rule book stating that deception is illegal.  I know that my organization has a meeting every 2 weeks in season to review / discuss logistical topics, rules and also to share experiences.   We have a state rules interpreter in attendance.  If you feel that no rules are being broken, you can ask the HC to raise the issue with the local organization and/or state interpreter.  Then you can hear straight from the horses mouth if it is / is not a balk.  That way you can get it straightened out before the post season starts.

NewUmpire posted:

bacdorslider posted:

does the umpire have the right to decide what he feels is a balk?  Should there not be a rule that is broken?  in this case is it that the pause they feel is illegal?

In this instance ...Yes... it is a judgement call.  The rule states that a pitcher shall make one continuous motion.   If in the umpire's judgement the leg pump was a pause ... then it is a balk.  No reason not to explain "what he saw" in a civil conversation with the HC if questioned.  Can't guess what was in the head of the umpire when it was called.  You said he reasoned it as "deceiving the runner"... there is nothing in the rule book stating that deception is illegal.  I know that my organization has a meeting every 2 weeks in season to review / discuss logistical topics, rules and also to share experiences.   We have a state rules interpreter in attendance.  If you feel that no rules are being broken, you can ask the HC to raise the issue with the local organization and/or state interpreter.  Then you can hear straight from the horses mouth if it is / is not a balk.  That way you can get it straightened out before the post season starts.

HC told son that the umpire told him , that he felt the move was deceiving to the runner. So you are thinking that the rule being broken is the continuous motion rule.  

Pitchers job is to disrupt the timing of the hitter and this delivery is certainly going to assist your son with that...I wouldn't change it either except maybe to incorporate a "slow it down" like Kershaw instead of a potential balk move.  Looks like he has good stuff...good luck to him!

If it is not a balk, how many times can he pump before he throws?  Does he have to keep it at the same number or could he simply keep pumping until he feels ready to deliver?  The assumption is that there is basically no other movement by the pitcher (not starting any type of lean towards plate).  If I were dragged out of the stands and made to umpire, I would call it a balk for no other reason than the speed of the first pump, and then the "slow down" before the second pump looks awfully close to a pause.  Look at the transition between the end of the first pump (when his foot is almost touching) and the start of the second pump.  To my untrained eye, there appears to be a pause, or at least enough of a slow down that one could interpret a pause or lack of continuous motion.

Good luck getting this ironed out with the umpire association.

He looks good, BDS.

A few questions come to mind... 

Is the ump in question a regular in the area?  Is he considered a decent ump?  Was this a league game?  If yes to any, are you a bit concerned that word will spread among local umps and/or league teams who may push for this to continue to be called a balk?

Also, do you have a concern that the (in effect) slow delivery will be an issue at the next level, where coaches and baserunners will look to expose that element?

NewUmpire posted:

bacdorslider posted:

does the umpire have the right to decide what he feels is a balk?  Should there not be a rule that is broken?  in this case is it that the pause they feel is illegal?

In this instance ...Yes... it is a judgement call.  The rule states that a pitcher shall make one continuous motion.   If in the umpire's judgement the leg pump was a pause ... then it is a balk.  No reason not to explain "what he saw" in a civil conversation with the HC if questioned.  Can't guess what was in the head of the umpire when it was called.  You said he reasoned it as "deceiving the runner"... there is nothing in the rule book stating that deception is illegal.  I know that my organization has a meeting every 2 weeks in season to review / discuss logistical topics, rules and also to share experiences.   We have a state rules interpreter in attendance.  If you feel that no rules are being broken, you can ask the HC to raise the issue with the local organization and/or state interpreter.  Then you can hear straight from the horses mouth if it is / is not a balk.  That way you can get it straightened out before the post season starts.

HC told son that the umpire told him , that he felt the move was deceiving to the runner. So you are thinking that the rule being broken is the continuous motion rule.  

Ok,  got in touch with state high school's sports governing body.  from wind-up no balk, no illegal pitch.  From sons soon to be college pitching coach...no balk from wind-up  but no reason to do it from stretch

I guess I always associate a balk with a move out of the stretch.  With that in mind, can someone please outline the differences in allowed moves between the stretch and windup?  Let's just assume bases loaded in either scenario so we don't have to worry about the existence, or lack thereof, of baserunners (My understanding is that an illegal pitch converts to a balk simply by having a baserunner).

Buckeye 2015 posted:

A couple have you mentioned a balk from the wind up?  What purpose would calling that serve?  There are no runners on base.  I've never seen a balk called from the wind up...again, what would be the point?  As for this pitch...tough call.  At first I thought yes, but I don't think he paused and I've seen stranger things allowed.  The differences in what HS umps call/don't call can be ridiculously different depending on the guy.  We lost a District final game on a 2-out balk call in the bottom of the last inning a couple years ago.  Coach asked the ump to explain why he called a balk.....he said "because it was".  The game was at a college field.  The college coach is a former MLB pitcher (World Series ring)....he didn't see it...and even after watching the video replay he had no idea why the call was made.  I really think the balk is the most misunderstood call of all by both parents and umpires.  Fortunately for my son, he had worked or been coached by 3 former MLB guys over the years.  I don't think he's ever been called for one.

There are lots of balks from the wind up, usually with a runner from third attempting or bluffing a steal of home.

Some people think it doesn't matter what the pitcher does from the wind up when nobody's on base.  The purpose of calling an illegal pitch from the wind up is to avoid a bigger problem later.

If the umpires let a pitcher do something illegal from the wind up all night long that doesn't seem to hurt anything when there aren't any base runners (e.g., the hybrid stance),  it suddenly becomes a big deal when the pitcher goes back to the wind up when the bases are loaded.  

The runner on third doesn't know if the pitcher can step and throw or has to step off before throwing. It makes a big difference in the lead he can take with the infield in. 

What's the umpire to do when his casual approach to the rule creates a run-scoring balk situation? Suddenly start calling the balk? Ignore it and hope the offensive team doesn't notice? Call time and give everyone a lesson on legal pitching positions? 

I don't know what Bacdoorslider's son's wind up variation of this double leg lift would look like, but it seems likely the starting feet position could be an issue. 

cabbagedad sent you a PM

I got some more info.... when son came into the game there were runners at 1st and 3rd.  he did the double leg lift in the stretch and the ump called a balk.  Ump said he thought it was some sort of failed 1st and 3rd pick move.   the next inning no runner on base....... from the wind-up son did the double leg kick and no balk was called.

Fair enough - ump blew the first call... owned it ... didn't call it the second time.   As mentioned earlier, if ump was watching warm ups and saw the move - he would have been alerted to the non-traditional motion.   Also, a simple word of warning from the coach or catcher can help alert the ump to the motion.  "Just a heads up ... the P has a quirky motion ... don't want you to be surprised".    Hope the error didn't impact the outcome of the game.

no it did not affect the game.  he was coming in to get some work in before next Tuesday's start.  ( district game)  this was a non-district game letting multiple pitchers in to pitch

Buckeye 2015 posted:

A couple have you mentioned a balk from the wind up?  What purpose would calling that serve?  There are no runners on base.  …

There are a great many pitchers who’ll pitch from the windup with the bases loaded, runners on 2^nd and 3^rd, or just a runner on 3^rd.

Swampboy posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

A couple have you mentioned a balk from the wind up?  What purpose would calling that serve?  There are no runners on base.  I've never seen a balk called from the wind up...again, what would be the point?  As for this pitch...tough call.  At first I thought yes, but I don't think he paused and I've seen stranger things allowed.  The differences in what HS umps call/don't call can be ridiculously different depending on the guy.  We lost a District final game on a 2-out balk call in the bottom of the last inning a couple years ago.  Coach asked the ump to explain why he called a balk.....he said "because it was".  The game was at a college field.  The college coach is a former MLB pitcher (World Series ring)....he didn't see it...and even after watching the video replay he had no idea why the call was made.  I really think the balk is the most misunderstood call of all by both parents and umpires.  Fortunately for my son, he had worked or been coached by 3 former MLB guys over the years.  I don't think he's ever been called for one.

There are lots of balks from the wind up, usually with a runner from third attempting or bluffing a steal of home.

Some people think it doesn't matter what the pitcher does from the wind up when nobody's on base.  The purpose of calling an illegal pitch from the wind up is to avoid a bigger problem later.

If the umpires let a pitcher do something illegal from the wind up all night long that doesn't seem to hurt anything when there aren't any base runners (e.g., the hybrid stance),  it suddenly becomes a big deal when the pitcher goes back to the wind up when the bases are loaded.  

The runner on third doesn't know if the pitcher can step and throw or has to step off before throwing. It makes a big difference in the lead he can take with the infield in. 

What's the umpire to do when his casual approach to the rule creates a run-scoring balk situation? Suddenly start calling the balk? Ignore it and hope the offensive team doesn't notice? Call time and give everyone a lesson on legal pitching positions? 

I don't know what Bacdoorslider's son's wind up variation of this double leg lift would look like, but it seems likely the starting feet position could be an issue. 

Not trying to derail the thread, but it seems bacdorslider is fairly content so, I have a question.

I know you have to have contact with the rubber.  I know you have to come set and move forward but what constitutes an illegal pitch?  What are the high school standards that one can violate and have it called illegal? I've seen balks but I don't think I have ever heard an illegal pitch called.

Not trying to derail the thread, but it seems bacdorslider is fairly content so, I have a question.

I know you have to have contact with the rubber.  I know you have to come set and move forward but what constitutes an illegal pitch?  What are the high school standards that one can violate and have it called illegal? I've seen balks but I don't think I have ever heard an illegal pitch called.

My understanding is that a balk and an illegal pitch are exactly the same in that an illegal pitch becomes a balk in the presence of baserunners.  If that is in fact correct, my earlier question may help clarify - what constitutes an illegal pitch from the wind up?  Have not gotten a direct response yet but remain hopeful.

Also trying to determine what constitutes a stoppage of "continuous movement".  I would theorize that the human body is never fully still, so there must be an appearance of a pause.  The idea that the video does not show a pause seems incorrect, but I think all would agree that it comes awfully close and invites close scrutiny.  That said, the fact that he has not had intermittent balks (when he simply moves too slowly) called suggests I am wrong.