Balk/Pickoff Rules: Different for RH and LH???

Coaches are wrong. The pitcher can always step to the bag and throw to the bag. Windup or stretch.

The notion that a RHP has to step off before throwing to first is simply wrong. But if he doesn't step off, he must step towards first and he must throw. The jump/whirl move is a balk though it is often not called.

A LHP does have to deal with the rule that if his right (kick) foot crosses behind the rubber, he must go home; if he crosses it behind the rubber and then goes to first, it's a balk. A RHP doesn't have this situation, so it is true that there are some differences between how RHP's and LHP's are treated. Just not what your coaches are saying.

As for not stepping off to save a base on an overthrow, I am not aware that this makes any difference. I'll defer to one of our pro umpires on that point, but my understanding was that a ball thrown out of play gets the same treatment whether thrown by a fielder or a P on a pickoff.

While it isn't required by a rule, I do think that young pitchers who are having to learn to hold runners for the first time should be taught to step off. This allows them to look the runner back without throwing the ball around. They can pump fake, or turn and look before deciding whether to throw. If you go with a full scale pickoff move with your youth league 11-year-olds, you'd better also teach your RF about backing up because the ball will be thrown away with great regularity.

This is a case of kids needing to learn to walk before they can run, so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Grey Ghost:
If he wants to try a pickoff to 1B, he must step off with pivot foot first.

This is what you would have your pitchers do if you followed the pre-2006 MLB rules literally, but it's not what most pros do. Instead, what most pros do is first pivot on their glove-side heel and then step and throw to 1B.

They first pivot on their heel because it's impossible to throw consistently and accurately (if at all) to 1B while keeping the glove-side foot in its original place parallel to the rubber.

This is a legal move per MLB rule 8.01...

"(b) The Set Position. Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop."

The phrase "with his pivot foot in contact with" is new for 2006. It used to say "on or in front of", which implied that more of the foot had to be on the rubber, not just any part of the foot.

As long as any part of the pitcher's foot stays in contact with the rubber, then he isn't considered to have stepped off the rubber. In the case of the ML pivot move, the heel of the GS foot stays in contact with the rubber.

In some cases, umps will allow pitchers to do a jump turn move and consider them to still be in contact with the rubber, even if they come off of it briefly during the jump turn.

Us lefties have been discriminated since the beginning of time in everyday life. The liberal interpertation of the pick-off move for a lefty is our way of paying back society for life long wrong doings.


Next to the NBA traveling call, the balk rule is sports most widely interpruted. Not only is it confusing to an umpire, because they are not consistant with it, but, you seldom see it called without conflict.

My son has always said that at a young age you were not picking off the runner you were picking off the adult 1B coach who was saying "..lil' more... lil' more....baaaaack...shet"

Actually, I like to see young pitchers learn to hold runners by varying their looks (i.e., no predictable pattern) rather than making pick throws.

The fewer pick throws the better. Fewer opportunities for a wild throw or missed catch.

Fewer opportunities for the opposing team to figure out the pitcher's moves. This means greater chance of success if the pitcher does eventually make a pick throw.

I know of a pitcher who averages less than one pick throw per game . Yet given a catcher with a halfway decent arm and some accuracy, he is almost never stolen on successfully. He varies his looks. Utilizes a quick leg lift (not a slide step) in the stretch, so he has a quick move to the plate. There are surprisingly few attempts.

Texan, I agree with you. Most kids throw over way too much. Worse, they forget what it is they're trying to accomplish.

The objective is to hold the runner. You will get an out only on the rare occasion. Yet, how many times do you see the kid use his best move over and over, trying to get an out, with the result that he ultimately throws the ball away and gives the guy third base?

If you only show your best move once in a blue moon, the odds of getting an out with it actually go up anyway. In fact, if you only throw over occasionally, as Texan suggests, you might catch a base runner over there getting a bit too cocky for his own good. If you throw over all the time, he'll be ready enough that you won't get him, and if you keep trying to squeeze that ball into a tight space, eventually you'll give your first baseman something he can't handle.

MD, you did a much better job of explaining and laying out the rationale than I did.

A pitcher can do more damage to the runner by simply stepping off the rubber

I have a different philosophy of working pickoffs than some of you do. I encourage pitchers to use pickoff moves more than most coaches do. I want them to understand that as long as they have the ball in their hand, the game is under their control.

I understand what some of you have said, that the more often a pitchers tries picks the more chance of error, but on the other hand, the more they do so the better they get at doing it.............on a side note, this is similar to youth coaches who tell their players "don't throw the ball around". I encourage them to throw the ball anytime they think they have a chance to get a runner out, and in doing so they and their teammates get better and better at getting baserunners out........

Back to the pickoffs, I believe a pitcher must be the one guy who controls the running game.

Somebody mentioned that they know a pitcher who rarely picks but also rarely has runners steal.........how about this pitcher that I know.......Division I RHP, 69 IP, 4 attempted steals, 3 successful.....used several picks, picked off five runners......MORE PICKOFFS (OUTS) THAN ATTEMPTED STEALS....one attempted steal per 17 innings, one SB per every 23 innings.

I try to teach pitchers to have a sniper mentality. I teach them to be a distraction to the baserunners (as opposed to the baserunners distracting the pitcher), and to be in complete control of the game, as the pitcher has the ball in his hand.

Regarding teaching, as in the initial post.....as others have already said, RHP does not have to step off the rubber to pick....stepping off the rubber should be a part of his game plan, though......a quarter jump turn is a perfectly legal move to 1B for a RHP.

There certainly are different philosophies. And obviously the "more pick throws are better" camp has many followers.

I have seen bad pick throws cost college teams (not to mention HS teams) games on quite a few occasions. And it seems that often the pick throw that went awry was was the fourth, fifth or sixth pick throw on the same runner. Seldom the first.

But others may well have different experience.

Just curious about the stats for the RHP. When he threw a pick throw away, didn't the official SK put the runner as advancing on an E1? It wouldn't go down in the books as a SB. Thus looking at the stats wouldn't give a true picture. He could have had ten runners advance on bad pick throws but the stats wouldn't show it except in the number of E's he had. Or Perhaps he never made a bad pick throw. No way to tell from the stats given.

I would agree absolutely with the pitcher being in control, as I'm sure everyone would. But the pitcher doesn't have to throw the ball to exert that control.

Grateful is wise in teaching his pitchers not to be distracted.

Texan......I can't find anything that shows the number of errors, it is from the 2005 season. 2004 season shows 5 stolen bases against him in 12 attempts in 63.2 IP, with 5 pickoffs.....the media guide doesn't have the defensive stats.........2006 season was redshirt season with surgery.....couldn't find the stats on the ISU website or Missouri Valley Conference site from 2004....baseball cube does not show defensive stats of colleges.....but if you want to search, it is my son........Illinois State U.........very few errors.....he does control the running game......if you do find it, please let me know........

I agree with you about having seen games lost because of erros on pick attempts.......have also seen games lost due to a failure to attempt picks, thus allowing stolen bases. Difference in philosophy......if an offensive coach knows that a team is less likely to pick, he will run more aggressively.

There are exceptions to everything. We had a guy on the HS JV team a couple years back who was really a catcher first, pitcher second. His feet were so quick, and he had that powerful catcher's snap throw, that he picked off probably a dozen guys in 7 starts. One game he got three guys in a 3-inning span, and none were close.

With a guy like that I would encourage him to go for the out. But he would be an exception, not the rule.

If it was your boy, then I'm sure you would know if there had been any E's. I was just curious.

Dumbest thing I ever saw in umpiring:

A veteran ump was showing a less experienced guy how he determines balks on a LHP and drew a line at an angle from the pitching rubber, splitting the distance between the plate and first base, a 45 degree angle, telling the pupil that if the pitcher steps on the home side of that line, he'd better be going home with the ball.

Next game, pitcher is a right-hander. Right before the first pitch, the "pupil ump" strolls to the mound, and draws a 45 degree line-between third base and home plate.

quote:

As for not stepping off to save a base on an overthrow, I am not aware that this makes any difference. I'll defer to one of our pro umpires on that point, but my understanding was that a ball thrown out of play gets the same treatment whether thrown by a fielder or a P on a pickoff.

If we agree that a pitcher is an infielder when he steps off the rubber (pitchers plate), then here is are the rule references:

OBR 7.05 Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance --

(g)Two bases when...a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench... or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators.

(h)One base, if a ball, pitched to the batter, or thrown by the pitcher from his position on the pitcher’s plate to a base to catch a runner, goes into a stand or a bench, or over or through a field fence or backstop.

I agree that stepping off can be by itself a way to keep runners close. I just don't want my pitchers to step off and THEN THROW OVER. I justify that opinion by stating the One Base/Two Base penalties that the rules above stipulate.

If the intention is to throw over, then the pitcher should do so while in contact with the pitcher's plate.

But it is sure frustrating to have to deal with a local rule that effectively PREVENTS a RHP from throwing to ANY base without stepping off!!!

Please note that the cited rule only covers a ball going out of play. If the field is "tight", it is unlikely that the ball will go out of play and the cited rule will not apply.

Thanks for the citation and the education. I'll have to check my NFHS book to see if they use the same distinction. (Now, if I could just figure out WHY they make it different in the two situations.)

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
In the case of the ML pivot move, the heel of the GS foot stays in contact with the rubber.

Hey, painguy, does this move apply equally to RHP and LHP?

How can the RHP pivot on his left heel and then step toward 1B? Is he stepping with his right foot? Please clarify this move...

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Please note that the cited rule only covers a ball going out of play. If the field is "tight", it is unlikely that the ball will go out of play and the cited rule will not apply.

Good point, but on our Bronco field, the fence by 1B is only 4 feet high and back only 15 feet from the base. It also has a gate section that frequently allows balls to roll under it. So for my guys, this is a real issue!