Baseball history in jeopardy?

Very sad indeed.

We can only hope this sad era baseball ends sometime soon.

.



Ring all you want...it ain't gonna' happen.

However, roids saved baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
However, roids saved baseball.

Thanks zombywoof, I've been waiting for that angle to come out

Personally I can not wait for one thing...

Yankee's first trip to Fenway

"A-ROID, A-ROID, A-ROID"

Sportscenter will play it over & over.

Blame it all on the almighty dollar. Bigger, faster, stronger. I can't believe some stupid TV show about the Bionic Man influenced the entire process...in ALL sports......

I mentioned over a year ago that when this steroid crapola was all said and done, more names would be on the users list than not!

The list will keep on growing.

What is funny is that nobody wants to talk about the older players like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle etc----among the oldsters were boozers and womanizers just to begin with----baseball history is not as clean as they want us to believe

Don't you think baseball is just a reflection of society?

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Don't you think baseball is just a reflection of society?

The baseball purist may say that society is a refection of baseball.

I think Stark's premise is wrong. Bonds, Clemons, and Arod will all make the Hall. Their records are too good to be denied, and the Hall voters suspect now and will increasingly understand that a whole generation of players were involved. A reasonable guess is that half the players took PEDs, and the fraction is probably higher among those who may be considered for the Hall.

It happened and it is everybody's fault-- even you and me, since we chose to believe our heroes, cheered on the violators, and stood quiet in the face of the player's union refusal to allow meaningful tests. The owners and the Commisioner surely knew, many in the press knew, and of course all the players knew. And what they knew was that the use of steroids was pervasive. Going back in time a little, everyone also knew about the amphetamines and the use of cocaine as a PED.

I am utterly confident that some recent and not so recent inductees have used PEDs to good effect.

The voters finally will decide to treat steroids as they have already treated amphetamines--"everybody" was doing it, the playing field was sort of level, and these guys were the best.

It was a very bad era for baseball, but it happened in much too big a way to pick and choose those to blame and punish.

If society is a reflection of baseball, I want to know who my union leader is to tell me all the risks coming at me just before they get here. My stock portfolio would look a bit better right now.

I do believe that someone, from the "inside" of baseball, will write a tell-all book at some point and expose just how much was known.

I'd be surprised if Bud Selig comes out looking any better than Bonds/McGwire/etc...

You should have heard Harold Reynolds on MLB-TV yesterday and today---

quote:

Bonds, Clemons, and Arod will all make the Hall.

Will Bud Selig? He's the Colonel Klink in all this. Or was he Schultz? I see nothing!

Would the publics response be the same if the "All American boy" Cal Ripkin were accused of PED use?

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
Would the publics response be the same if the "All American boy" Cal Ripkin were accused of PED use?

Mine would be the same. Thoroughly disappointed.

Why would this info from a 2003 test be turned over to a Sports Illustrated reporter at this time? I read the crawl on MLB network that said the Feds raided a records company and seized material which included the list of the 104 players who tested positive in that year. Something just doesn't add up for me and makes me think there's more to this story. Maybe I've been watching too much television.

Name the player:
21 season career
2,683 games
1,782 runs
3,319 hits,
234 home runs,
1,307 rbis
.306 BA
504 stolen bases.
batted .368 in 5 postseason series
all-star seven times
Admitted coke and dope user in the early part of his career.

First ballot HOF 85%

I think Stark's premise is wrong. Bonds, Clemons, and Arod will all make the Hall. Their records are too good to be denied, and the Hall voters suspect now and will increasingly understand that a whole generation of players were involved. A reasonable guess is that half the players took PEDs, and the fraction is probably higher among those who may be considered for the Hall.
===================================================


while pete rose didn't help his own cause by lying. he got his hit's the old fashion way. beer and greenies. if they let these others in that effected the game so negativly. they should send a limo for pete now.

he was a victom of his own ignorance,sign this and you'll be allset. he is still the alltime hit leader. most likely alway's will be.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
Name the player:
21 season career
2,683 games
1,782 runs
3,319 hits,
234 home runs,
1,307 rbis
.306 BA
504 stolen bases.
batted .368 in 5 postseason series
all-star seven times
Admitted coke and dope user in the early part of his career.

First ballot HOF 85%

Uh, who is Paul Molitor? I'll take needles and lotions for $1000 Alex.

rosy

according to a story in biz of baseball. all the result's from 2003 were to be destroyed. as it was an experiment/fact fiding. somebody didn't do their job very well.


i added this.
As for Rodriguez, or any other players that may surface as part of the seized files from Comprehensive Testing, as part of the survey test agreement, the 2003-2006 CBA has the following:

At the conclusion of any Survey Test, and after the results of all tests have been calculated, all test results, including any identifying characteristics, will be destroyed in a process jointly supervised by the Office of the Commissioner and the Association.


For a reasons not yet known, the test results for all the players were never destroyed. Reportedly, the mishandling of paperwork involving the 104 players that tested positive in 2003 prevented the MLBPA from destroying the results of those players, allowing federal investigators to gain access to those records through a search warrant.

I don't think the feds got that memo 20dad.

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:
Uh, who is Paul Molitor? I'll take needles and lotions for $1000 Alex.

ding, ding, ding....a winner

Any thoughts on the publics reasoning that Molitor was not judged on the knowledge that was known during his career. Wasn't even a HOF consideration.

Does this society only judge on the medias infatuation? If the Molitor story was addressed with such intensity would MLB have tested the entire league for rec drug use thus sending a message to society about that abuse?


btw- he's in top 2 rz1 fav list

quote:

Originally posted by itsrosy:
Why would this info from a 2003 test be turned over to a Sports Illustrated reporter at this time? I read the crawl on MLB network that said the Feds raided a records company and seized material which included the list of the 104 players who tested positive in that year. Something just doesn't add up for me and makes me think there's more to this story. Maybe I've been watching too much television.

Well, the details about the 104 players were discovered while the Feds were searching for evidence involving the 10 baseball players implicated in the Balco investigation. That was a long time ago, but last week the judge in the Bonds perjury case unsealed all of the documents related specifically to Bonds. The list of 104 names wasn't released (but probably will be at some point--the Feds want to release the names), but it seems likely to me that there was enough information made available last week to allow some enterprising reporter to guess who might know the names.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
Thats the beauty of it. Drunk, hungover, too many hot dogs, bum knees, fat, psycho, ruthless guys putting up numbers that stand the test of time? i don't think their lifestyle was based on playing better?

Go figure. Give em the drugs to enhance strength and "youth" and the numbers don't compare to dogs'n'beer?

Actually, Oldslugger8, there is a long history of drug use in baseball that is far more pervasive than most of us know. In the 1920's--Ruth's time--it was common for players to snort cocaine right in the dugout.

There was amphetamine (greenie) use from the 1940's (they were popular with World War II pilots and brought back to baseball. In fact, they weren't even illegal until 1970) all the way through modern times. Some teams used to add them to the coffee, labeling one pot "regular" and the other "hot".

Amphetamine Use in Baseball

Or how about the Pittsburg Pirates cocaine scandal?Or Bechler's death from ephedra use? What say about Ex-Pirate John Milner who says Willie Mays and Willie Stargell supplied him uppers?

All I'm saying is, the old-timers, truth be told, did drugs too.. should their records be taken away? I think these records will stand.

Booze and womanizing, not admirable things.
Coke's worse.

But steroids and HGH are specifically designed to enhance performance and unlevel the playing field some of our sons are trying to compete on. And they contravene Federal (and moral) Laws. I take those infractions a lot more personally.

The ego that required the already stars of the game to chemically increase their performance is amazing ---- how many records and how much money is enough?

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:
Booze and womanizing, not admirable things.
Coke's worse.

But steroids and HGH are specifically designed to enhance performance and unlevel the playing field some of our sons are trying to compete on. And they contravene Federal (and moral) Laws. I take those infractions a lot more personally.

The ego that required the already stars of the game to chemically increase their performance is
amazing ---- how many records and how much money is enough?

Orlando,
Once one guy takes something the rest fear falling behind and becoming unimportant. According to the book on Bonds he was stewing watching McGwire and Sosa get all that attention in 1998? during the race to 62 HR. Yes, it seems, ego is an unbelievable motivator, but a lot of times it motivates people to do the wrong things.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:

Actually, Oldslugger8, there is a long history of drug use in baseball that is far more pervasive than most of us know. There was amphetamine (greenie) use from the 1940's (they were popular with World War II pilots and brought back to baseball. In fact, they weren't even illegal until 1970) all the way through modern times. Some teams used to add them to the coffee, labeling one pot "regular" and the other "hot".

Knowing a few former MLB players, am very aware of the caffeine/upper usage.

I am not understanding about the 104 names and one was released.
On the radio they talked yankee conspiracy. Why not just throw some fuel into the fire to begin the season? Arod is so easily distracted, and important part to their success, why not just upset the apple cart a bit.
I am not defending anyone, and not a yankee fan, just don't like how people go about things. I want the names of the 103 other players, let's even things out a bit for everyone.
Baseball is supposedly the purist sport, but obviously hasn't been all that pure and not just in the 90's or early 2000 years. There is no way you can go back in time to determine if the HOF guys really deserved to be HOFmers. There is absolutely in my mind no way anyone can ever break a record, with how the game is played now. The records that stand were from different eras played differently.
I can see how those that do would be under scrutiny and most likely depended on other sources to stay healthy. I am sure that there are plenty of players who sought/seek out doctors to help them stay in the game by receiving legal drugs by RX, once such drug is ritalin. That's wrong, IMO, but if it is legal it is ok. That is not making everything even.

Yes, you most likely will find the most egotistical breaking rules or finding ways to get around the rules.


Baseball was such a mess, can we go back, wipe the slate clean and start over?

i guess as messed up as the rest of every day life is going,there is no reason baseball should be any different.

How will the passage of time affect players of today? Ruth, Gherig, Mantle, Maris and all the other guys who are from a long time ago. They all did bad stuff that would get the grilled by the public today. But they are remembered as heroes. The media is vastly different today than back then but how will that affect a Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens et al?

What some of those oldtime guys did was recreational by definition and not really performance enhancing. Probably the drinking and social choices were detrimental. Anyway,

1) at 5'11" and 175 pounds, arguably the best RF arm that ever played the game.

2) at 5'11" and 195 pounds, arguably the best natural switch hitting power guy(farm power).

3) at 6'1" and 190 pounds, one of the best defensive third baseman in baseball history.

4) at 5'11" and 150 pounds, one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball history.

5) at 6'1" and 200 pounds, one of the best catchers to play the game

6) at 6'0" and 185 pounds, one of the most dominant RHP in history and threw 100 mph.

----
Clemente
Mantle
Brooksie
Ozzie
Bench
Feller

****
They seemed to get it done baseball-wise?

i often wonder the same thing coach. even for the times ,most players didn;t make much money. it wasn't uncommon to see them playing with the kids in the streets. hard not to like a guy that can hit at stickball.

today you'd have to pay a fee to have them mingle with our youth,lol.

today's mlb player's aren't worried about paying the light bill. i'm not sure they'd even know how.

.

Hey Coach...you got an extra 1000 kilowatt hours? I gotta' pay my electric bill.

I find it amusing when people semi-defend the roid users with previous era's players' boozing, womanizing, cocaine use, and even greenies (more often than not to overcome the previous evening's activites than to improve performance). As if those activities taint the records of those eras the way steroids taint this era.

I was talking about this to my player and he put it this way ---- eliminate the steroid & HGH users and his chances improve. But if you really want to improve his chances, let all the other MiLB catchers increase their drinking and "womanizing" (interesting old-fashioned word, that), and do as much coke and speed as they like.

But Molitor did not fool with the...
..."hallowed integrity of the game" (sarcasm off).

What does "semi defend " mean ???

Not come right out and openly defend PED user's adamantly, but consistently bring up whatever questionable substance (booze, coke, greenies) previous generations of ballplayers used in order to show how all eras have their little peccadilloes.