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Steve A. posted:

From what I observe, the main obstacle to overcome here is the inability of parents to be objective when evaluating the talent of their own kids.

This is an incredibly accurate statement.

I also simply cannot comprehend the faith put in the people that parents are paying to coach or instruct their kid, without them having a proven track record or seeing actual results. 

If I had a doctor that promised me he was curing my disease, yet every check up I had I was the exact same level of sick for 4+ years I would wonder what the hell kinda doctor I had working on me and why I keep kicking in the co-pay.

For some reason this logic does not apply to pitching/hitting instructors.

I think that high school showcase baseball is about to take a pretty severe hit.  Here's why.  

More and more, state high school athletic associations are allowing sports/teams/coaches to do things in the off-season.  In GA teams can practice in June and play games.   A coach is foolish if he doesn't say to his players, "If you aren't clear D1, and maybe even draft-worthy, material, you don't need to be bothering with showcase baseball. You are throwing money away on uniforms, and administrative costs, and get zero training.  You will show up with 25 other guys on your team and play for a college kid looking to make a little side money.  Chances are that a recruiter will never even come out and see anyone on your team play.  

As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments.  You will be seen by the same people.  We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs.  I have connections in the coaching world.  I can get you seen- if you deserve it.  I will be coaching you and training you in the summer.  So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus.  If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."

A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.

As for kiddie travel ball.  The present generation knows enough now to train their own kid in the skills to succeed.  They don't need some guy who himself couldn't make it and now trains kids at a warehouse or the latest internet know it all, or some guy with a belt or a balance board or a stick that makes a noise when you swing correctly or super secret olympic lifting program in order to teach their sons how to play.

Will the next generation continue the self-centered child worshipping practices of their parents?  That will be the big x-factor.

Golfman25 posted:

I'll just say this.  It's all about steps and levels.  There is nothing wrong with playing "travel ball" as a youth.  There are many types of programs to choose from -- glorified rec league to semi-pro.  Pick what works for you, have fun and play.  There is a learning process there -- compete and get better.  The goal should be to contribute in HS. 

Once in HS, then you decide whether you want to play at the "next level."  And work to get yourself there.  But as others have said, be realistic.  That means for most, traveling around the country to showcases is a waste of time/money for recruiting purposes.  But everyone thinks you need to be there to be "seen."  If your legit D1, sure that's probably true to provide maximum opportunities.  But for most, you just clog up the park.  We know several kids who did it -- they were D3 players and traveled from AZ to GA.  Guess where they ended up.  At the local D3s -- all less than an hour away from home.  No scholarship, lots of money spent. college baseball players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the best showcases within their 200 mile zone.

Most college players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the top showcase for their ability within that 200 mile zone. PG (GA and FL) is for top players looking to play in Power 5’s and other top programs, top players looking to compete against the best and players loooking to get in front of pro scouts. Even a lot of these players play within 200 miles of home.

Last edited by RJM
smokeminside posted:

Ad, I agree with much of what you write.  I have three boys, all of whom have, or will be pursuing baseball homes at high academic schools.  The oldest went through the recruiting process and is in his first year at a D3 program, the middle one is a junior in HS and planning carefully to be seen this summer, and youngest is a 2022, currently playing intermediate ball. 

The older boy's journey included several showcases and two travel team trips.  The d3 focused showcases were the most helpful for him.  The travel team events were not productive, but they were fun.  They weren't productive because they were focused on d1 players and we learned that he was a d3 player late because we really didn't know any better.  No one promised us anything, though, so I don't feel like we were misled. My #2 may have a shot at d1 because he's big and fast, but we are again focusing on d3 for him and if d1 happens at the right school, so be it.  He's slated to go to showcases that allow him to be seen by both.  He will also do a travel team trip with a chance to be seen by mid to low level d1.  the 2022, well, I'm just trying to help him figure out how to throw a changeup. 

Our experience is ultimately different from most on the board because no one comes to our state to scout unless they're looking at bona fide d1 studs. We have to go to the scouts, which means the cost is unavoidable for what we're trying to do. The hard part is guessing which showcase my kids will perform best at, i.e., there's no way of knowing.  Given that, how many showcases are too many?  Obviously, that's a personal choice, but the money involved is sobering.

Look into Play To Win.  They are the only recruiting service that I would recommend. The focus on high academic D3 schools and they have a proven track record of success.  A good friend hired them 2 years ago as his son fit their profile. He followed their guidance and it resulted in his 2018 having multiple offers from his target schools.  He eventually chose Haverford. 

I wonder how many league MVPs of Patriot, Ivy or NESCAC think "this sucks, I should be in the SEC"?  I doubt any of them think this way.  When enough parents realize that "fit" is what it's about the pendulum will swing back.  How will this happen?  There is far more information available today than even 10 years ago that help players and parents see where they fit (pitching velos and exit velos broken down by age, 60 times, online video analysis, etc).  More is coming, and in 10 years there will be no excuse for D3 talent to think he's got a shot at the SEC.  Just as parents can now see that little Johnnie's 1150 PSAT score won't cut it in the Ivy League, they'll see that they can or can't cut it athletically in a P5.  Whatever hopes and dreams have been fueling this craze will be directed elsewhere.

Someone told me years ago that the game will decide when it’s time for a player to hang it up. Only a few get to make that decision for themself but most don’t get to  decide.

The recruiting process is somewhat similar.  It will show you what level you should target. Typically, the player doesn’t get to make that decision for himself.  

The level of travel team that a kid should play is probably similar as well. 

Teaching Elder posted:

As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments.  You will be seen by the same people.  We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs.  I have connections in the coaching world.  I can get you seen- if you deserve it.  I will be coaching you and training you in the summer.  So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus.  If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."

A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.

 

Sounds like Legion ball.  This is how it was when I grew up.  The top HS players moved on the legion in the summer.  

real green posted:
Teaching Elder posted:

As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments.  You will be seen by the same people.  We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs.  I have connections in the coaching world.  I can get you seen- if you deserve it.  I will be coaching you and training you in the summer.  So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus.  If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."

A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.

 

Sounds like Legion ball.  This is how it was when I grew up.  The top HS players moved on the legion in the summer.  

Legion is very active around here.  A lot of JC players are in it, as well as D3 players, D2 players and a few D1 players. Also some good HS players who want one more season of baseball before hanging them up.

 

EDIT -- when I said "Legion" I was lumping Connie Mack into that, though I'm not sure if that's technically accurate.  My son did 2 years of each and saw lots of legit pitching, especially in Connie Mack.

Last edited by JCG

Legion ball is weak in our area code.  Only a few HS's are able to keep a stable of pitchers who can really sling it... as a result, the quality of pitching in Legion ball is subpar to the top club teams (in our area).  If a player is seeking to play college ball it's been a better path to get on a top club team so that they'll see advanced pitching.  Legion ball was strong where I grew up, and I know there are areas where it continues to thrive.

My 2016 and 2018's said they were happy about the work they put into their games, and really enjoyed playing travel ball.  They both wanted to play college ball and they both wanted to play against stronger competition.  They had an absolute blast traveling and playing better teams, great friendships developed as well.  I'm glad I was able to support their interests.  

It really helped that I leaned on coaches and instructors for assessments on what level my boys projected to... Having this clarity allowed us to chart decent recruiting paths.  And we-I still made mistakes about which venues were appropriate at which times in their development.  Happy kids happy family.

I agree with a lot of the above that frustration is going to come from spending a lot of money and not seeing the results. This does come from not understanding which "level" your kid should play. It does seem that all kids at first want to play power 5 D1 baseball and their parents want to brag about them playing D1. I use quotes because there is so much overlap in baseball levels that I think its naive to go by D numbers. You can find D1 rotations throwing in the 80s and you can find an NAIA program with 3 pitchers in the 90s and their top pitcher touching 99.

I also think a lot of the frustration comes from it not sinking in with people that most baseball programs recruit players close to their same area, most baseball players also end up playing for programs closer to their general home area. I feel very fortunate that a friend who already went through baseball recruiting told me this when my oldest was just starting out trying to play past HS and fortunate that it actually sank in. There does seem to be a huge push to parents that if you aren't playing in GA or Fl all of the time you aren't getting the most out of exposure. If you are not living in the southeast all of that travel and cost for hotels is going to add up quick. If you do go all out and travel to these tournaments and don't get what you expect with recruiting results disappointment with the whole process is going to come pretty fast.

adbono sums it up pretty good.  There will always be those associations who will tell you what you want to hear and invest in.  Actually that is pretty much life in general.  They are in business to teach kids baseball skills and to hopefully get better.  Of course I will never accept falsehoods, but again it is the parent's job to weed out the good and the bad.  It will never be proven but there is no way to turn a kid into a professional athlete.  You can teach him the knowledge, train him on proper mechanics, give him countless lessons, tournaments, travel ball, etc but there are countless non controllable (to an extent) factors.  Hopefully all these wannabe parents will realize it is destiny.  You can provide the opportunities, resources, finance, and support and if this correlates with the kid's destiny and makeup (sex, size, talent, wisdom, desire, etc) you will increase the likelihood of him going to the next level, never a guarentee.  I glanced at my son's D1 baseball roster and every player had "all-something"  and accolades.  I'm sure every one of them as entering freshmen saw themselves as being a starter, all-conference, all american, or going to the next level.  Most likely they spent countless hours and dollars with lessons, travel ball, showcases, and tournaments.  Maybe 1/2 saw any meaningful playing time, and only a few went on to the next level.  Supply and demand...when parents accept if their son has it or not is when those less than accurate entities will start to decrease.  Nothing wrong though in doing all you can if that is what your child wants.  Gives the foundation for parents/child bonding and doing things as a family.  My son was lucky/foruntate in that he had a good high school and college career.  He is almost there (the show) as he is listed in the Top 100 MiLB prospects.  Growing up we had an understanding when he got tired of baseball it would stop.  We checked with him many times.  We did it all, lessons, travel ball, tournaments, park leagues not so he could play in college but because he loved it.  Baseball became family trips/vacations.  Nobody in my family ever played any sports beyond high school, thus there was no family pressure factor.  It wasn't until his soph high school year did we realized he is kinda good at baseball.  Yes it was pretty late recruiting wise for college thus I don't recommend taking this route.  If he stopped playing baseball after high school was it all worth it?  Yes, definitely.  We did it not to make a career or scholarship for him but to make us a better family as a whole.

As Steve A. said, real quality commentary here.

Given the time frame in the OP, I think there will be massive changes in two areas -- video and data. Historically, recruiters have had to go see players play in person, and PG (and others) helped make that easier and more efficient for the recruiters. In 20 years I think there will be so much high-quality video and data (pitching velo, exit velo, spin rate) available from high school games (I know of one high school that has already purchased a Rapsodo unit) that we will be astounded at the changes. Sure, there will still be high-level tournaments pitting the  top players against each other, but day-in and day-out it will be a lot easier for a recruiter to recruit out of his area.

P.S. -- yes, not many high schools can afford a couple thousand bucks for a Rapsodo unit, but what if that technology were $100? The time frame of 15-20 years will bring astonishing reductions in the cost of the advanced tracking technologies. And webcasting will be so normal (and so much better quality) that it will seem odd that a high school doesn't webcast its games.

RJM posted:
Golfman25 posted:

I'll just say this.  It's all about steps and levels.  There is nothing wrong with playing "travel ball" as a youth.  There are many types of programs to choose from -- glorified rec league to semi-pro.  Pick what works for you, have fun and play.  There is a learning process there -- compete and get better.  The goal should be to contribute in HS. 

Once in HS, then you decide whether you want to play at the "next level."  And work to get yourself there.  But as others have said, be realistic.  That means for most, traveling around the country to showcases is a waste of time/money for recruiting purposes.  But everyone thinks you need to be there to be "seen."  If your legit D1, sure that's probably true to provide maximum opportunities.  But for most, you just clog up the park.  We know several kids who did it -- they were D3 players and traveled from AZ to GA.  Guess where they ended up.  At the local D3s -- all less than an hour away from home.  No scholarship, lots of money spent. college baseball players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the best showcases within their 200 mile zone.

Most college players will play within a couple hundred miles of home. For most players the money is best spent at the top showcase for their ability within that 200 mile zone. PG (GA and FL) is for top players looking to play in Power 5’s and other top programs, top players looking to compete against the best and players loooking to get in front of pro scouts. Even a lot of these players play within 200 miles of home.

That's right.  But if you look at the number of teams and players at the "big" events every year, you see there is a lot more supply (players) than demand (spots).  A lot of the kids are on the back fields wondering where their "dream" is going.  IMO, the events should be smaller and cater to the exact player you describe.  

RJM posted:

Are those (players and parents) the least happy the ones who don’t or didn’t grasp where the kid fits in the game talent wise? It can be frustrating to attempt to place a square peg in a round hole.

I've thought about this (after my Modelo Negra fueled happy, happy, happy post on this thread last night).  At least in terms of root cause.  My son has done very well last year or so.  He's getting projected higher by PG / baseball people than my expectations.  I thought if he could play at all after High School that would be really good.  I guess it's easier to "enjoy the ride" since he is having success.  Also, it puts him among other players that are having success, hence happy people around me.

Maybe my mind was closed.  His wasn't.  He told me about a year plus ago he wanted to go to PG and prove it.  (To many of us in Texas, PG is a once a year thing for the WWBA.  That's the big deal.)  So I found him a top team (through this board), he went and showed out.  Lot's of fun.

Teaching Elder posted:

I think that high school showcase baseball is about to take a pretty severe hit.  Here's why.  

More and more, state high school athletic associations are allowing sports/teams/coaches to do things in the off-season.  In GA teams can practice in June and play games.   A coach is foolish if he doesn't say to his players, "If you aren't clear D1, and maybe even draft-worthy, material, you don't need to be bothering with showcase baseball. You are throwing money away on uniforms, and administrative costs, and get zero training.  You will show up with 25 other guys on your team and play for a college kid looking to make a little side money.  Chances are that a recruiter will never even come out and see anyone on your team play.  

As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments.  You will be seen by the same people.  We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs.  I have connections in the coaching world.  I can get you seen- if you deserve it.  I will be coaching you and training you in the summer.  So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus.  If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."

A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.

As for kiddie travel ball.  The present generation knows enough now to train their own kid in the skills to succeed.  They don't need some guy who himself couldn't make it and now trains kids at a warehouse or the latest internet know it all, or some guy with a belt or a balance board or a stick that makes a noise when you swing correctly or super secret olympic lifting program in order to teach their sons how to play.

Will the next generation continue the self-centered child worshipping practices of their parents?  That will be the big x-factor.

That is essentially what is happening in my area.  The real studs go off for the summer.  The rest of the team stays home and plays with their "HS" team.  They have to change the uniform, hat, and name, but that is about it.  Then the problem becomes whether you HS coaching staff is any good.  Some are and some, unfortunately, aren't. 

Golfman25 posted:
Teaching Elder posted:

I think that high school showcase baseball is about to take a pretty severe hit.  Here's why.  

More and more, state high school athletic associations are allowing sports/teams/coaches to do things in the off-season.  In GA teams can practice in June and play games.   A coach is foolish if he doesn't say to his players, "If you aren't clear D1, and maybe even draft-worthy, material, you don't need to be bothering with showcase baseball. You are throwing money away on uniforms, and administrative costs, and get zero training.  You will show up with 25 other guys on your team and play for a college kid looking to make a little side money.  Chances are that a recruiter will never even come out and see anyone on your team play.  

As a team we will practice together in the summer, then as a team we will enter and play in the same tournaments.  You will be seen by the same people.  We will wear our high school uniforms and you won't be paying a bunch of administrative and "recruiting" costs.  I have connections in the coaching world.  I can get you seen- if you deserve it.  I will be coaching you and training you in the summer.  So, you will actually be improving during that time - a big plus.  If you want to play showcase baseball afterwards, I will help you get on a team; it's your money."

A coach that gives up this opportunity to work with his team during the summer instead of farming them out to showcase baseball will probably not be making the best decision from a personal career perspective.

As for kiddie travel ball.  The present generation knows enough now to train their own kid in the skills to succeed.  They don't need some guy who himself couldn't make it and now trains kids at a warehouse or the latest internet know it all, or some guy with a belt or a balance board or a stick that makes a noise when you swing correctly or super secret olympic lifting program in order to teach their sons how to play.

Will the next generation continue the self-centered child worshipping practices of their parents?  That will be the big x-factor.

That is essentially what is happening in my area.  The real studs go off for the summer.  The rest of the team stays home and plays with their "HS" team.  They have to change the uniform, hat, and name, but that is about it.  Then the problem becomes whether you HS coaching staff is any good.  Some are and some, unfortunately, aren't. 

IMO, hs teachers and coaches are vastly underpaid.  Many will use their own money and resources to teach and coach.  Some love working with kids, teaching and coaching, some have other reasons.  Either way I believe you pay them what they are worth and that will bring better competition for the job.  Students win with better education, better qualified coaches will be available, etc.  Now the only question is how to generate more money for the schools and being used appropriately!

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