Baseball instinct is overrated!

Silence is Golden !!!!!

tr,

That's the way I like it. Why even bother with your little snippets??

BB instinct is a misnomer. Instincts are innate behaviors; when people talk of BB instincts they (IMO) are talking of smart, knowledgable players who do the little things that make a difference.

I will follow TR's lead on this one. Happy New Year.

Flint - never start the New Year with a discussion with limon.

Dave

I hope you and you family had a great holiday

Sure did - we had our first annual arm wrestling contest - 13 yr old and me - I won but I'm typing one handed now - I have to come up with a new contest for next year that I can win.

My instincts tell me to ignore this topic (and it's starter).

quote:

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Originally posted by limom84:
I keep reading about baseball instinct on this site. But is it really instinct that a player has or is it experience? Players develop at different rates and gain an awareness of the game at different stages. This awareness comes through playing experience not instinct.

Baseball instinct is usually attached to a player whose skills do not measure up to those who are highly rated. I am not talking about major leaguers or those at the pro level. I mean the HS players.

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I agree

I happen to agree with the statement. Limom is not talking about natural talent but basic instinct. To me I see a difference.
Most really good players got that way because they had many years of playing experience or good coaching that developed the talent or the instinct.
Every once in a while you come across a player who does have a great "feel" for the game without ever playing it, but without proper instruction or lots of playing time will never be a ranked player.
Sometimes these are the players that get drafted or a good scholarship and everyone is shocked because a good scout or a good college recruiter realizes with more playing time and proper instruction the player can eventually make a significant contribution. JMO

Hallelujah!

Finally, someone else agrees with me.

You have no idea what you have done!

A broken watch is correct twice a day

I agree completely Coach May!

I think what people call "instincts" is the ability of a player to process and react to information. I dont believe this can be taught.

Knowledge and instinct are two completely different things. Experience might sharpen or enhance a players instincts, but they won't create good instincts. You do not learn instincts!

If you take two 6 year old kids (I've done it) and teach them how to play baseball while their knowledge of the game is equal, one will instinctively understand quicker and better than the other. The other, through work ethic and other things may end up better, but he will never catch up in the instinct department. And it makes no difference what their GPA or SAT might be. I'd like to say this is only my opinion, but I feel so certain about it I actually think it's a fact.

Instinct: According to Websters

1 : a natural or inherent aptitude, impulse, or capacity
2 a : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason b : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level

PGSTAFF

Very well put and I also believe that it's a fact.

"Things" happen during a baseball game, season, career, etc. that you simply cannot teach players how to react. Players with "baseball instinct" make these plays without ever being taught, what, when or how to do these things. They just do. I've asked players, "How'd you do that?" or "Why or how did you know how to do that?" They really don't know. How many times has a player said to you, "I just did it."

To say that it is "Overrated" and "Usually attached to a player whose skills do not measure up to those who are highly rated," is an insult to the "highly rated" who have that labled attached as well as others. There are many very good players out there with equal talents - "Baseball Instinct" can be the one thing that seperates the two from each other and take them to the next level.

IMO - Baseball instincts are a gift that you either have or you don't. Gifts are generally not overrated and attached to players "whose skills do not measure up."

IMO instinct is something that some kids have and some don't. Some kids have an understanding of the game that has earned respect from peers, coaches and parents. It goes beyond what you can be taught. I believe some kids can learn the game and be great competitors, but there are some kids that just have a natural "instinct" to read other players and plays. You can recognize this natural ability if you watch a good high school game. This makes them stronger defensively and offensively. It's like every other tool and the additional "tool" of attitude/work ethic. Some have and some don't.

Instinct is overrated?
How do you explain that some kids 7 year old are excellent base runners, and others their whole life, even if get to the big leagues, never do?
How do you explain that kids 7 year old, after catch a ground ball, and knowing is not play at first, look at the runner at 3rd base to avoid him to score?
How do you explain that kids playing outfield throw to the right place, preventing the runner to get an additional base, and others in HS can not do it?
How do you explain the kids that grab a bat or a baseball for first time, and when making his first swing or throwing for first time, look like if they were veterans?
Instinct is real in baseball as in life, some kids bring some misterious instincts that show very early in life, signals about their capacity to do certains thinghs better than other.

The player that reacts quickly to a play is because he can process the information faster. Maybe a batted ball will travel 10 ft before a good player can react to it, but a player with "instincts" will react when the ball has only traveled 5 ft. It happens so quickly they are not even aware that they went though this thought process.

Always thought baseball insticts to be Derek Jeter running to the 1st base foul line to cutoff an errant throw from RF and back-flipping the ball to the catcher to nail an important runner at the plate in a MLB playoff game.

MT

That is a fine example of baseball "instincts"

Jeter's instincts are what make him the special player that he is- they set him apart !!!

While on the topic of instincts: Take it for what it’s worth.

It is “my belief” that there are many young players who have outstanding instincts but do not always use this gift. In other words, for some reason they do not “trust” their instincts or they are afraid to “trust” their instincts.

My personal opinion is this happens a lot because the player has been taught certain fundamentals that disallow full usage of instincts. In order to do things the way he is coached he can not be a truly instinctive player. The very best are those who can learn all the techniques and fundamentals while maintaining and using his natural instincts.

njbb brings up a good point, but I think it can be taken a step further. There are those that trust their instincts who will react even before the ball is hit. ie. Ozzie Smith and Ryne Sandberg. Once in awhile you would see these two going in the opposite direction away from the hit ball. Yes, they were fooled by their own instincts. However, they also got to hundreds of balls they might not of reached due to trusting their instincts. Those with great instincts will be wrong once in a great while, but for every 1 time they’re wrong they might be right 99 times. Afterall, those with the great instincts are right an uncanny percentage of the time. The secret is to trust your instincts and have no fear of looking somewhat foolish once in a great while.

In baseball there are the many things that a player learns, practices and repeats the same way each and every time. Then there are the situations and things that happen only once or maybe twice during the entire year. Thing is, there are thousands of these single different things that happen every year. Those who do not trust their instincts and only rely on what they’ve been taught and what they have practiced are at a big disadvantage.

Those without good instincts are yet another story and there are limits to what they can do. They are the outfielder who does not move on every hit ball. They are the infielder who lets ground balls play him. They are the base runners who don't react on pitches in the dirt.

Great instincts normally show up most in base running and on defense. The power hitting DH does not require as much as the middle infielders, catchers or outfielders. Please disregard pitchers for the most part, though good instincts can help there as well. This would be the best area to include Greg Maddux’s name because he has “great” instincts. He also has a room full of “gold gloves” to prove it.

I would expect some good baseball people to disagree with some of the above. It’s just that back when I coached we would actually preach and practice using instincts. We would have “great” play contests that were impossible to win without using instincts. Some could call it “cheating”, we called it development. At times we would scrimmage and have players run the bases on their own without base coaches. It helped us in two ways, first we could quickly figure out which players had the very best instincts, second we caused those players to “trust” their instincts. It actually worked out very well! So while the instincts were natural, we tried to develop and utilize this natural gift. It is a pleasant surprise when you can uncover this talent that sometimes is hidden in players.

PG

I agree --as kids we played and we played and our instincts were free to develop. We were always on our homemade field at the corner lot. No umpires--no parents--no coaches-- the winning team kept the field--if owned the bat or ball you were in every game--- we developed naturally

Now kids get lesson upon lesson and I think we are beginning to almost "clone" players--they begin with the lessons so early they do not get the chance to develop naturally.

Just my thoughts

PGStaff,

Nice post!

Always a pleasure to observe your opinions......

Baseball managers used to have great instinct, that was untill Money Ball exposed that myth.

quote:

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Originally posted by limom84:
Baseball managers used to have great instinct, that was untill Money Ball exposed that myth.

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Money Ball is an interesting read ... but the truth behind Money Ball is that Oakland could get away with the "lower budget" players since they were built around pitching. The loss of Mulder and Hudson will move "Money Ball" into the realm of interesting and useful tidbits of information, but insufficient to replace a true GM and Scouting director.

You missed again...

A lot of the A's future will depend on the past 4 drafts. From 2001-2004 they had "17" first round picks. If they score on about 9 of them, they will be in very good shape in the years to come. Since most teams only had 4 first round picks in the same period of time, the A's scouting dept's skill will have a lot to do with their immediate future.

tr/pg
One of the nicest compliments my son recieves is that he fields like alot of the latin players. Like many of the latin players he never recieved formal instructions in fielding and was able to develop and trust his instincts

Trhit

Kids playing on their own. No adults telling them "How to do it"? Showing your age.
I coached for a long time and the longer I coached the number of kids coming to high school knowing basic fundamentals declined. Talent is one thing but knowing what to do with it is another. Kid has a strong arm but he throws to the wrong base or misses the cut off man. Kid has a 2-0 count and swings at a curve ball in the dirt. Last summer I watched a pitcher with a 7-0 lead throw repeatedly over to first base. Why? Instincts require knowing the game and having it drilled into you. yes drilled in. Over the years I had some players with good tools who were a little light in the instinct department. Makes you wonder

Will

I am not ashamed to show my age--I am proud that we knew the basics of the game without parents or coaches showing us-- we learned by playing and watching

At my age I have probably forgotten more than most know

Trhit

I think we have both showed our age on this site. And that is a good thing. Despite some trying to reinvent the game maybe just maybe we get lucky and have something useful to say. You have a few on me but I can see your tail lights so I am right behind.

Will

Stay back just far enough and perhaps a few might learn something from us as we learn from them---

Be careful because I stop short at times

After coaching a few hundred different kids over the past 13 years, my own playing experience in basketball, and just observing the differences between my own children: my opinion is that 'intuition' in any sport is grounded in a basic, hardwired mental ability to do three things - maintain an almost real-time 3D simulation of what's going on in the game in your head, the ability to mentally "slow the game down", and the ability to dis-engage the conscious mind and let the unconscious nervous system assume dominance in crucial time-constrained moments. Some people are great musicians, some are great at math and structured reasoning, others are highly artistic and creative. 'Instinctive' atheletes are just wired differently ... their bodies allow their unconscious neuro-mucular systems to respond and be guided by the game simulation running in their heads. And in opposite, I had a kid play B-Ball for me that was incapable of getting any closer than being 5-8 seconds behind 'real-time' in the game ... he would run back on defense while our team started a fast break, he'd stand in his spot for our offensive play while our team was down court on defense, etc. ... but the kid was a math genius. He just couldn't disengage his logical, step-by-step reasoning process.

Training, good coaching, etc., builds the tactical knowledge base and neuro-muscular memory that guides actions ... but some people are simply wired differently to take that knowledge and apply it in split-second reaction times so they are doing precisely the right thing at precisely the right time. All too fast for the conscious mind.

Sorry for the basketball analogy, but it's the same basic innate capability for all sports ... Magic Johnson at all times knew the location of all ten players, the two refs, and the court layout ... by sight, sound, touch, smell, and tactical knowledge ... all integrated into a full 3D simulation of the court in his head. I still remember an interview with James Worthy back in the mid-80's ... the TV guy asked James what it was like when he first started playing with Magic. James said "you learn real fast to always be watching Magic, and always have your hands ready to catch the ball ... after you get hit in the head with the ball a few times, you learn to always be ready for his pass because he ALWAYS sees you".

your discription is very similar to what Ive read about how a dyslexic person process information. It is the 3D simulation that causes the movement and reversal of letters and numbers.

Instincts can not be taught. There are some kids that just seem to be in the right spot at the right time even when logic says they shouldn't even be there. They play the game one step ahead of other kids. It is one of those intangibles that we speak about.

Experience is something all together different. This is the player that will be where his experience tells him he should be not where his instincts tell him to be. He will be where he is supposed to be and the other kid will be where he needs to be. Coaches can not coach this and they can not teach this. That is why it is not overated it is gold.

Oh and by the way it goes kind of like this. "What the hell is Billy doing? Oh no look out uhhhh......... Great play Billy way to be thinking"!!!!!!!!!

While I've seen some kids have better baseball instincts to begin with they're usually the kids who get an earlier start, are well coached and are more coordinated than the other kids. That is a difficult advantage for other kids to overcome but I've seen it happen where kids have developed their baseball instincts through hard work, practice and playing time and maturity.

I've seen a kid who didn't make the all-star team at 9yo and maybe not at 10yo lead his team to a national championship at 12yo. At the same time the kids with the "instincts" from the beginning also contributed but not to the same degree.