Basic Batsmanship

Not trying to knock you but I knew a college player that cut the air with his swing and he had a long swing.Long on the back side.Naturally good pitching ate him up.He led his state in home runs in jucoball.By the time he was whiffing consitently he said his hs and juco coach had never really worked with him on his swing.

"A little stride on the down swing will cause the bat to gain more speed and force in the swing."

You don't want a stride while the bat is in the "down swing." When the HEEL of the front foot goes down, the rotation speeds up and the hands come after that.

All three at once in starting the swing to gain the greatest bat speed.

You seem to be referring to the wrists breaking when you say 'hands', otherwise your swing will be too slow.

Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPAvbBYCqCk&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etSfBwcNpII&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN_XhY6MJ9c

quote:

Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands.

Just like in the Mantle video? I dont get what your trying to say.

As soon as the front foot lands, forward momentum is diminishing.

The fraction of a second between the time the front foot lands in the clips to contact is minmal. The clip is in slow motion. But it still diminishes the possible effect of making contact when forward momentum is at its greatest.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=43&w=4&c=4&n=0&m=12&s=0&y=1&z=9&l=0

If a person strides, the hands separate as the foot goes forward. It can look like the hitter "bar-arms." When the foot lands (the rotation that already is started, accelerates and the hands follow the rotation into the hitting area. I said hands because the wrist action is delayed. The hands (both of them) initiate the bat into the hitting area, and the wrists take over (both hands are used, not just the top hand) into a palm-up-palm-down contact of the ball. However, the hands do not start until the front foot lands. If anything they have the appearance of pressing back as the stride goes forward. Some hitters actually do press back others stride out and leave the hands where they started. Either way there is separation causing distance between where the hands start and the hitting area. Bonds "cocks" the bat, leaves the knob close to the hitting area but creates more distance of the barrel (than where he starts) thus having the best of both worlds. Short to the hitting area but a longer barrel to the hitting area.

I see all three starting at the same time.

The distance the bat travels compared to the foot is greater thus the appearance of delay in the swing until the front foot lands.

If the hands did not start until the front foot lands, the batter would never make contact.

The average pitch travels to the plate in .4 seconds. The batter would have to pick up the ball, stride and then bring the hands forward in your explanation.

The batter has approximately .2 seconds to swing.

There simply is not enough time as you describe.

quote:

Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands.

Quincy,
Do you really believe that?
If so, that means the back foot would be planted in the ground and how would you go about adjusting to off speed.

Not to bring up an old subject, but how would you describe the swing you've mentioned here... Rotational or linear?

quote:

Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands.

Can you post an example of this?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
All three at once in starting the swing to gain the greatest bat speed.

You seem to be referring to the wrists breaking when you say 'hands', otherwise your swing will be too slow.

Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPAvbBYCqCk&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etSfBwcNpII&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN_XhY6MJ9c

The hands and arms can't start to the ball until the front heel plants. What you are saying would be like trying to shoot a rubberband using only one finger.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
I see all three starting at the same time.

The distance the bat travels compared to the foot is greater thus the appearance of delay in the swing until the front foot lands.

If the hands did not start until the front foot lands, the batter would never make contact.

The average pitch travels to the plate in .4 seconds. The batter would have to pick up the ball, stride and then bring the hands forward in your explanation.

The batter has approximately .2 seconds to swing.

There simply is not enough time as you describe.

To do what you are trying to describe, you may as well be standing on one leg. You may be able to make contact (but I doubt it), but if you do, it won't be going very far.

Adjusting to off speed is done before the swing. Any adjustment in the swing to an off speed pitch would require affecting the bat in motion and thus losing accelleration.

Since there is 'stride' and 'turn' in my description, there are elements of both rotational and linear schools of thought. Combining simple technics properly would enhance the operation of a simple machine.

In order to post an example of this, I would have to find a clip of an 'accidental' home run or a 'one handed' home run.

Mic,

You are apparently of the mind set that the batters power generates the best result in contact instead of proper use of the bat.

If we all consider that we are actually looking to swat instead of swing, you may get a better understanding of generating the greatest bat speed and force.

Break down the swing into four parts. Pick up a bat and try this.

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) In the second phase of the swing, the bat is at great speed until the bat is forced to turn in the hands thus the wrist break (prefferably right over the plate) again increasing speed.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

4) Followthrough, decreasing the speed of the bat with your arms and hands.

This 'relaxed swing' will allow the greatest exertion of bat speed and thus force at impact. The quality of the contact made will determine the final result.

The key is to relax in the swing. You can't hit and think at the same time.

Think I'll just sit back and see where this topic takes us. It has the makings of a doozy!

you're sadistic

some of the more, eh hmm, critiquing sort of guys may just skip this all together and deny us our enjoyment.

Can you show us some examples of hitters TODAY that are doing this?

quote:

Idealy contact would be made as the front foot lands.

Where did this come from?!?

I suggest you take what I said and try it.

After tying this method. come back and then ask questions and offer critique from an informed point of view.

Until that time, comparing this to some other style is useless because you have no basis for the questions.

Quincy

Do you feel the hips should start to rotate before you make contact?

quote:

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

was that a yes, no, or a maybe?

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
was that a yes, no, or a maybe?

I think that was more of a "HOLY COW"!

There was a clue folks. "Basic Batsmanship"???????
What the heck is Batsmanship? Basic Hitting - OK. Basic Hitting Fundementals - OK. Batsmanship? There was nothing basic in that post Quincy. If that is really your name. Contact is made as the front foot is landing??? Dude that is so far from reality its , well not good Batsmanship.

I see you took my advice and tried the hitting style. NOT

Batsmanship is he art of handling the bat.

After you give it a try then come back and make some sense instead of ranting and asking questions that are plainly answered in the post.

It is as basic as basic can be. Read the post. Get of your kiester and try swinging a bat using the style.

Better yet, go out and hit some balls using the swing.

Until that time you have no valid input in the discussion.

I walked by a college practice last year where the coach was telling the hitters to get their foot down early. I wanted to say "get your foot down at the right time", but stopped myself.

I'm not a proponent of teaching that that the front foot should land early. Early means early. It seems the timing should be just right, not early, not late.

If the front foot landed as the ball was being hit, that would be real late.

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=597300&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

Watch the front foot

Quincy,

I'm totally confused.

Please tell us you're just pulling our chain.

If not, would you be willing to share your thoughts on "basic batsmanship" with the most knowledgable hitting instructor/coach that you might know, someone you totally trust and ask them what they think.

FWIW... It might save you some grief.

I don't think anyone is going to go out and try hitting that way. It's kind of like telling someone they need to go out and try pitching from behind their back before they can disagree with it being the best way to pitch.

Anyway, if you truly believe what you posted, more power to you. But if your hitting advise were so "basic", don't you think you would have someone here agreeing with you?

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=35&n=25&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9


His foot intitiates the swing,just as it did in the clip you posted.He is not swinging untill the foot plants.

Quincy,

Hit the pause button as soon as ARod gets his stride foot down and tell us it's at contact.

Had the contact been when his foot was just touching the ball would have been in the upper deck.

TF,

Pass this on to your buddy. He could use it with his team.
Swinging after the front foot touches is slow pitch softball.

slowpitch?

PG,

I don't expect many batting instructors to agree with me. As you stated, you have first hand knowledge of their inability to help a player adjust to be productive.

One high school player was striking out and popping up regularly. I taught him this swing in ten minutes. He tried it in the cage and then tried it in the game.

He hit three smoking line drives, one caught on a leaping circus catch by the shortstop, but the other two were no higher than ten feet high all the way to the left center wall.

After a visit to his batting teacher, he was back to striking out and popping up.

I have never asked for payment in the advice I give. I just enjoy watching the results.

quote:

I'm not a proponent of teaching that that the front foot should land early. Early means early. It seems the timing should be just right, not early, not late.

If the front foot landed as the ball was being hit, that would be real late.

Quincy,

Is it possible that you taught that player what baseballpapa calls "just right" in the above quote?

Personally, I would add too early is much better than too late!

Baseballpapa,

The college coaches you witnessed were trying to correct a timing issue of getting the foot down too late and subsequently correct a "late swing".

Quincy,

Thank you for the laugh. A video clip of someone other than yourself swinging as you describe would be helpful.

He is pretty much describing the same thing that I am.

My ideal is contact when the foot touches, his is while the forward momemntum is still being developed.

My 'style' takes advantage of all the momentum that can be developed plus the additional torque of the change in direction.

As with the pendulum, the greatest force generated by the down swing is not at dead center. It is just slightly after dead center from the last swing effect before gravity starts decellerating the swing.

That is what I recommend as the point of contact just in front of the plate. (Step 3 in my swing description)

I found a clip of someone using some of the 'style' swing from this site. His front foot slides rather than strides

I hope he doesn't mind me posting it.

"i took your advice and tried to work on my form and make my swing smooth and i hit a lot more line drives in practice, other than being walked mostly i hit good in the games too"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XStxFDOauQ4

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
I found a clip of someone using some of the 'style' swing from this site. His front foot slides rather than strides

I hope he doesn't mind me posting it.

"i took your advice and tried to work on my form and make my swing smooth and i hit a lot more line drives in practice, other than being walked mostly i hit good in the games too"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XStxFDOauQ4

Yep, beautiful swing alright. It has very little in common with what you've described, but it's beautiful.

He took his understanding of what I'm saying and did well.

He started all three at once and relaxed the rest of the swing letting the bat ride the acceleration he produced.

Try doing the same and then gauge the results you get.

Quincy,

I think the use of A-Rod is really good. As you said earlier, there is not much time (milliseconds) to read and swing. I did hit the pause button on A-Rod. Once I got him exactly when his foot lands and his bat is back. I tried again and his bat was at contact. That is how quick and few frames there are.

I commend you for studying the swing. Don't pay attention to the digs people will give. Thinking out loud on this board will make all of us better -- if we will change when we hear a good idea. What you did with your hitter was probably get his foot down earlier that he was and get him into a strong position to hit.

The college coach was telling ALL his players to get the foot down early. Early is early, it is no good. It ruins timing and makes everyone a slap hitter. Also makes it hard to drop the barrel (or adjust) for off-speed and location.

Notice in the A-Rod clip how open his front foot is at landing yet how closed his upper body is. Wish I was A-Rod's hitting coach. I would take all the credit and not change anything.

He was trying to power his bat through the swing instead of letting the bat glide through the swing. When he relaxed he gained more bat speed and distance on contact.

I can't take credit for his hitting. I just gave him a few tips.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
The college coach was telling ALL his players to get the foot down early. Early is early, it is no good. It ruins timing and makes everyone a slap hitter. Also makes it hard to drop the barrel (or adjust) for off-speed and location.

My experience tells me the exact opposite.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Had the contact been when his foot was just touching the ball would have been in the upper deck.

1) His foot was down first before he started to swing. This clip does not support what you say. (Neither does the clip in which you say the hitter "slides his foot")

2) You are making a BIG assumption that he would have hit the ball 100+' feet further had he done what you say. That would be over a 25% increase in batspeed and ball distance.

3) If you are advocating someone swinging as the their front foot hits the ground, you are creating guess hitters. Their timing needs to be impeccable to hit the FB and they can't adjust to offspeed pitches.

1 & 2) I agree that since the front foot was down in both clips that neither hit the ball as far as a slightly better swing would have been.

ARod's shot was about 400 feet. Had he made slightly better contact at footfall, he would have hit it five hundred feet.

Previous to the renovation of Yankee Stadium, ARod's ball would have still been in play. A ball had to go in the bleachers for a home run at that time.

Once a ball is over the fence, there are no extra points for distance.

3) This is what slows your swing. Timing for the fastball is what is worked on most. The swing you advocate is slow.

A batter does not read the spin on the ball in the swing. He reads it out of the pitcher's hand. He swings at the spot where he guesses the ball will be after making the adjustment.

You have your batters thinking too much, slowing their ability to react.

The greater one's bat speed, the more time they have to react.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
1 & 2) I agree that since the front foot was down in both clips that neither hit the ball as far as a slightly better swing would have been.

ARod's shot was about 400 feet. Had he made slightly better contact at footfall, he would have hit it five hundred feet.

Previous to the renovation of Yankee Stadium, ARod's ball would have still been in play. A ball had to go in the bleachers for a home run at that time.

Once a ball is over the fence, there are no extra points for distance.

3) This is what slows your swing. Timing for the fastball is what is worked on most. The swing you advocate is slow.

A batter does not read the spin on the ball in the swing. He reads it out of the pitcher's hand. He swings at the spot where he guesses the ball will be after making the adjustment.

You have your batters thinking too much, slowing their ability to react.

The greater one's bat speed, the more time they have to react.

Quincy,

What you advocate and what is done are two totally seperate things. Perhaps you should worry more about clarifying what you see and what big league hitters do rather than what my hitters are doing. I have worked with some pretty decent hitters year in year out.

Again, show me a clip of someone who does what you claim is the uber swing. Heck, at this point, I'd settle for a clip of you doing it. That worked out well for TPG's credibility.

Anyway, let's take this discussion point by point:

1) Show me a hitter who hits your way.

2) What data do you have to support your claim that A-Rod's swing in the clip would have hit the ball 25% further had he swung like you advocate? Is this a random number you are pulling out of your can?

3) I never said the hitter reads the spin. What I said was...you advocate the swing starts before the toe touches. Again, show me a clip of this occurring.

The theory of the Perfect swing is the ideal. We as humans may strive for that perfection and never attain it.

Those who come closest are the stars.

You may have worked with some pretty good hitters, but I'm sure they don't apply what you teach.

Waiting to adjust for the off speed in the swing is foolish.

You must be wedded so deeply to some school of hitting that you are afraid to try something different.

Take my style of swing to the field and you will then have some basis to critique.

Arguing the tenets of your 'religion of hitting' against any other is close minded. You may find that there is a better, simpler way.

Quincy,

Maybe you are correct, but in about 52-53 years of playing, coaching, scouting, teaching, studying baseball I've never known anyone who would agree with your theory of making contact at the precisely the same time the stride foot lands.

That would require the hips, hands and bat to commit way too early IMO. It would also eliminate good balance and the swing itself (to contact point) would have to be performed with one foot (back foot) only on the ground. All of this together would slow down the bat, and make it nearly impossible to hit anything off speed.

I'm not basing this on anything other than common sense and how every good hitter I've ever seen makes contact.

I agree with the others who ask for a video clip of someone actually doing this. The videos so far only prove the opposite to be true. Including the one of the young kid.

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing a hitter would feel very "uncomfortable" making contact at the same time his stride foot touched.

I'm still having a hard time understanding why you are so insistant about this.

BTW, I don't think everything you have said is wrong, just some of it. And I for one (of many) would welcome you proving your point by showing it in video.

If somehow you are correct, golfers will start lifting their front leg while starting their swing and making contact as their front foot touches the ground to gain that extra 25% on their drives.

Sorry for the stupid comparison, but I just don't know if what you're talking about is even possible in a good swing.

BTW, I consider myself very open minded and have no religon of hitting, throwing or anything else in baseball. I do believe there can be better ways. Just having a hard time with your theory here. Who else teaches this? Could everyone else be wrong?

The main reason that I know that this works is that it has worked for me and anyone willing to try it.

The golf analogy is a good one. The reason golfers don't stride is that they are trying to contact a ball with a flat surface.

Golf is not as forgiving as baseball. Success is not measured by three good shots out of ten.

A golfer using a wood or any long club could get more distance with a stride though not consistent contact or direction.

My 'style' is similar to golf in that I use the bat to get my distance. I keep my hands relaxed and after developing bat speed, ride the swing through contact and follow through.

The problem most people would have is the simplicity of the 'style'.

Once people get out on the field and use the swing, they are amazed at the sharpness of line drives and the distance on long balls.

As I say, the ideal would be contact at toe touch, but any variation close utilizing the principles would get good results with good contact. Baseball pappa would like contact while still moving forward before toe touch.

Many batters today and yesterday use the front foot as a sort of sling shot for the wrist break. I contend that better results can be had eliminating the time it takes to gain this sling shot effect.

The only real way to appreciate what I'm saying is to give it a try. As a golfer, you especially would appreciate the difference.

PS - Sometimes my buddies and I still do the stride at the driving range with the driver just for the distance, even better with the three wood. We call it the 'Happy Goldberg' from the movie.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The main reason that I know that this works is that it has worked for me and anyone willing to try it.

The golf analogy is a good one. The reason golfers don't stride is that they are trying to contact a ball with a flat surface.

Golf is not as forgiving as baseball. Success is not measured by three good shots out of ten.

A golfer using a wood or any long club could get more distance with a stride though not consistent contact or direction.

My 'style' is similar to golf in that I use the bat to get my distance. I keep my hands relaxed and after developing bat speed, ride the swing through contact and follow through.

The problem most people would have is the simplicity of the 'style'.

Once people get out on the field and use the swing, they are amazed at the sharpness of line drives and the distance on long balls.

As I say, the ideal would be contact at toe touch, but any variation close utilizing the principles would get good results with good contact. Baseball pappa would like contact while still moving forward before toe touch.

Many batters today and yesterday use the front foot as a sort of sling shot for the wrist break. I contend that better results can be had eliminating the time it takes to gain this sling shot effect.

The only real way to appreciate what I'm saying is to give it a try. As a golfer, you especially would appreciate the difference.

PS - Sometimes my buddies and I still do the stride at the driving range with the driver just for the distance, even better with the three wood. We call it the 'Happy Goldberg' from the movie.

Okay! I finally figured it out! Quincy is actually Chameleon and he is fishing for sucker fish! Getting lots of action so far.

quote:

Baseball pappa would like contact while still moving forward before toe touch.

Don't want to speak for others, but I'll bet your wrong about that.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:

If the front foot landed as the ball was being hit, that would be real late.

The golf analogy has to do with the swing and letting the bat/club do the work.

Apparently simplicity can be very complicated.

Quincy,

I believe you misinterpreted what baseballpapa said.

I don't golf, but I did enjoy Happy Gilmore.

There is that possibility.

He may mean something else.

I'm surprised that you don't golf. Hitting a ball 250 yards and equating that to its flight on a ballfield is amazing.

We call it 'Happy Goldberg' making light of the copyright police.

quote:

We call it 'Happy Goldberg' making light of the copyright police.

I don't get it, but that sounds like it's funny!

Once you have a swing capable of catching a 90 mph or better pitch then it's TR's line after that.

See it and hit it.

I will ask again - what does hitting a stationary object - with a golf club - have to do with hitting a 95 MPH fastball that is moving - with a piece of wood?

And when you are waiting for the 95 mph fast ball - and they throw you a 83 MPH offspeed pitch - what does that have to do with hitting a stationary object with a golf club?

Last time I watched golf - the ball didnt move - and the tee didnt change heights in the middle of your swing.

If your goal with this swing is to create batspeed capable of seeing the ball longer why in the world would you want to start so early that you make contact as the front foot is landing? This whole thread is comical. Hitters are only sucessfull 3 out of 10 times Quincy because there are 9 guys out there making plays. With this swing you wouldnt need that many thats for sure. The swing is typically launced as the lead foot lands. This is a timing device. What you describe as the perfect swing is the perfect lunge. Why am I doing this? I should know better.

Bat speed.

Bat speed allows the adjustment to the location and flight of the ball while still having time to make good contact.

When I find something with a better swing velocity than a golf club, I'll try to adapt that technique to a baseball swing.

Wow! Basic? Batspeed is how fast you can take the bat to the ball. When your brain says swing how fast can you take the bat to the ball. Adjustments to the flight of the ball? You start the swing and then you adjust to the flight of the ball? Who do you teach? Name some kids you have instructed. Where do they play? In the middle of your swing you adjust it to the flight of the ball? And then make that contact right as the front foot is landing. Outstanding Quincy. Just when you think you have heard it all you it gets even better.

Coach give it a try.

There is no lunge.

You don't swing at the pitcher's movement you swing at the ball that you see.

You have some preconcieved notion that is blocking you from understanding.

It is a compact and effective swing.

Pick up a bat and try it in a cage.

After doing so, then your critique will be based on something other than surmise.

Even you have to admit that there is something in your style of teaching and coaching that is not the best. If it were, you would have some state championships under your belt.

Realizing that there is room for improvement is the first step in improving.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Quincy,

I believe you misinterpreted what baseballpapa said.

I don't golf, but I did enjoy Happy Gilmore.

Is it Gilmore or Goldberg? LOL

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:


Last time I watched golf - the ball didnt move - and the tee didnt change heights in the middle of your swing.

Are you sure about that? On some of my swings, I would swear the ball had to have moved for me to have hit it where I did!

Quincy

Is just another cyberspace cowboy hung up on his own thing----how many more will we have to put up?

Possibly just another ID for the same "guru"

Golf compared to baseball----SHUCKS MA!!! I never thought of that

Babe Ruth said that a baseball swing should be similar to a golf swing, plus the stride.

I'll take his opinion on the topic over anyone else's.

He does so in this film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEYSb66ndNY

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The theory of the Perfect swing is the ideal. We as humans may strive for that perfection and never attain it.

Those who come closest are the stars.

You may have worked with some pretty good hitters, but I'm sure they don't apply what you teach.

Are you so close minded as to think that I HAVEN'T worked with stars? They all employ the basics that we work on.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Waiting to adjust for the off speed in the swing is foolish.

Yeah...you are right. Please show me just one hitter who does what you say. You sure do dodge this request pretty deftly.

Many batting coaches have worked 'around' stars, but it is stil the natural ability of that star that produces the stardom.

Batting coaches try to take credit for something that they have no part in.

I'm not closed minded at all. I have tried the mechanics of the various styles, but have found this one most successful and easiest to convey.


I don't have to make this approach any more complicated than it is. No theoretical physics or anatomical analysis of the body in the stance, load and swing.

Rather than seeing someone else swing, pick up a bat and give it a try.

Not having a video clip or animation of the swing is not dodging. I have given you the steps. I can't swing the bat for you.

Watch Ankiel swing. He generates bat speed at the start and lets the bat do the work. Even losing his balance as he did yesterday, he was able to generate enough power to hit a home run.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Many batting coaches have worked 'around' stars, but it is stil the natural ability of that star that produces the stardom.

Batting coaches try to take credit for something that they have no part in.

I'm not closed minded at all. I have tried the mechanics of the various styles, but have found this one most successful and easiest to convey.


I don't have to make this approach any more complicated than it is. No theoretical physics or anatomical analysis of the body in the stance, load and swing.

Rather than seeing someone else swing, pick up a bat and give it a try.

Not having a video clip or animation of the swing is not dodging. I have given you the steps. I can't swing the bat for you.

Watch Ankiel swing. He generates bat speed at the start and lets the bat do the work. Even losing his balance as he did yesterday, he was able to generate enough power to hit a home run.

So you are saying Ankiel does what you say?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Babe Ruth said that a baseball swing should be similar to a golf swing, plus the stride.

I'll take his opinion on the topic over anyone else's.

He does so in this film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEYSb66ndNY

Quincy,

Might want to watch that video of his golf swing again and see if he makes contact with his front heel off the ground. The heel planting triggers the forward motion. If he hit with his front heel off the ground, he could have one of the girls pick it up off of the ladies' tee for him.

What he does is in the same style.

He has room to improve, but the steps are there.

Quibbling over the perfection of the style as it pertains to the front foot is nitpicking.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
What he does is in the same style.

He has room to improve, but the steps are there.

Quibbling over the perfection of the style as it pertains to the front foot is nitpicking.

.

ANY swing has to be put in motion with both feet on the ground to create ANY MEANINGFUL batspeed. I get the "relaxed swing" part, but you are killing it by saying "contact at foot plant!" Foot plant at go, I agree with and THAT is maximizing your swing, but ALL hitters get fooled at times and the key to still being able to make contact is keeping your hands and weight back as long as possible to allow for adjustments.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:
Many batting coaches have worked 'around' stars, but it is stil the natural ability of that star that produces the stardom.

Batting coaches try to take credit for something that they have no part in. [\QUOTE]

Wrong again. I worked with these kids when they were growing up. I was one of many who helped them through different things. I haven't taken ANY credit for their success...that is why I didn't name drop. You know what they say when you ASSUME?

Batting coaches? Batmanship? Have you ever been around the game other than your keyboard?

Red,

I made a statement in the general regard. I never said you or named names. No assumption on my part.

Mic,

We both agree with generating power at the start. Where we differ is in that a slight foot lift or stride added to the hip rotation in conjunction with the wrist whip will generate power through the swing.

The 'power swing' that you are speaking of is the sling shot effect or catapult effect caused by the front foot planting. I remove that step quickening the swing. I have found that it isn't necessary in order to get through the 'wrist break' portion of the swing.

I have always recommended that a person be ready to swing fastball on every pitch. Seeing the spin on the pitch other than fastball allows time to adjust before swinging. If in reality a batter adjusts his swing while the swing is in motion little power would be generated and bat speed would diminish.

The faster bat speed allows a batter to be fooled but still effectively adjust before swinging.

The style I am speaking of takes less steps to accomplish and maybe half the time of the swing that you are mentioning. I have used both, but the results of this swing are far greater.

Seeing is believing so like other people, give it a try.

Listen to the people's reactions in the clip I posted of the high school kid's homer. The effects are greater than his usual when he used this swing.

It's really simple mechanics.

.

Almost a perfect example

See Betemit's homer

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=597897&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

Ramirez

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=597868&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

The front foot is down while the bat is still behind his head.

That's why I said 'almost perfect'.

It is very clear that his weight is back as he begins his swing. His power is not generated by the leg plant but by the weight shift, the wrist whip and the hip rotation.

Quick swing, no sling shot or catapult action from the front foot planting.

Cintact as the foot lands? Meaning rotation while in mid-stride? May be the craziest thing I'v heard on here !(yet, that is)

Almost as crazy as lifting a thousand pounds with a pipe and a rock.

Simple mechanical advantage.

Very interesting thread.

And while I use different words and may not agree with every detail of Quincy's description, I believe I "feel" what he feels.

Here is a great example of two of the best ever...."swinging before the foot gets down".



I wouldn't go as far to say contact is at touchdown.....but I know what he means. There is a large difference between "feel" and "looks". What a hitter feels compared to how it looks on video.

I would say....the launch of their swing puts their foot down. The foot isn't down first...then swing. And, the swing is so quick that "feel" wise it feels almost simutaneous.

And....if you want to be successful....you better be teaching feel....because that is what the hitter must deal with "in the box".

Notice neither of these two hitters use the Epstein "toe touch to heel drop" to launch their hips. Their hips launch as soon as they pick up their stride foot. Rotation begins at that moment. It is NOT a "firing" of the hip. There is NOT a defined moment of aggressive hip turn. There IS a stretching that occurs as they open the hips. There is a crescendo of the hip turn....that stretches and stretches and stretches...until it's so tight that the hitter must release. This stretching is countered by the upper body which has a "hold" on the system. A hold that in fact is going rearward as they turn the barrel rearward. While the "hold" is in effect...the stretching gets tighter and tighter. And when the hitter finally says "go"...the stretch is released and the bat is whipped through the zone. This IS the mechanical advantage that the highest level swingers use.

A great example would be if a hitter had a bungee cord on his wrists and someone was behind him holding the other bungee cord end. At the moment just BEFORE "go"...if the "holder" released the cord you would have two different results depending on the mechanics they use. In the toe touch/heel droppers...the don't swing until the front foot is down hitters....the cord would simply drop toward the ground with a slight forward movement. That hitter has tightened the bungee cord just to remove slack and he's waiting for "go" to accelerate the bat and thereby create a large pull on the cord.....he's waiting to "fire" the hips....he's waiting to apply his brute force rotation. The extent of his "slack removal prior to swinging" is limited to just making the bungee cord taught...tight. He doesn't keep stretching it beyond that.

In the highest level swingers....when the holder releases the bungee cord....remember I'm speaking of the moment BEFORE "go"....the cord would be aggressively yanked forward because of the stretch that the highest level hitters have going on BEFORE launch.

Their launch more resembles a release (although there is a WAY to do that optimally) than it does a sudden application of force to move the barrel.

Now...what does the video show? It will show what appears to be the "sudden application of force" as if brute strength rotation is being applied. I maintain that is nonsense. It is WAY too slow developing. What is happening is a sudden speed up of the body but only because the hold has been released.

And Quincy's experience of taking a young hitter and teaching this process and seeing an immediate difference mirrors my experience. The kid is not suddenly stronger. His vision didn't suddenly get better. But, he did suddenly get a mechanical advantage. The "stretch and fire" mechanics and their differences (to what most believe occurs) was first taught to me by Donny Buster....Swingbuster.....an often misunderstood hitting genius.

All other attempts to swing with what I call "brute force rotation" are suboptimal. You can find mlb players that do that. Several of them. Some of them quite good. But that speaks to their athletic ability....not their mechanics.

The very best use the highest level mechanics. And I believe Quincy is doing a fairly good job of describing them.

And he is absolutely right when he says...."get in the box and try it".

Most of you have never experienced what he's describing. And, until you do, you're short changing yourself.

P.S. PGStaff......have your sons been taught to put their stride foot down first when pitching and then drop the heel and rotate? I think not. There is a definite rotation into footplant. The hitting move is identical........and the upper body's control over it.....over the release of it....at precisely the right moment....is how the great hitters deal with all the different pitch speeds, directions, and locations. Their swing launch is instantaneous. It simply has to be. And this hips opening creating stretch that is controlled by the upper body until release is the ONLY way to do it optimally.

Waiting for touchdown to drop the heel so as to do all that has to be done in .2 seconds AND cover the zone is what all you nay sayers are asking.

And it is simply impossible to do.

Differences in the launch position. I believe Bonds and Chipper are high level. I believe Cabrerra and Beltran are very athletic.

I have not interjected in what Quincy has been saying because I wanted to hear what others thought about what he is saying........

It seems all but Chameleon think Quincy is far off the mark of what really happens in the MLB swing....

Well, I, also believe there is some truth to his message.......

There is something called "intent to swing" which comes into play......The front foot works off of this intent, IMO..........

FWIW, I believe this is a vastly misunderstood area of high level swinging that should be explored by everyone interested in this stuff....

Chameleon,

That was a great explanation and I for one have no problem with anything you've said.

If you go back over the previous posts you will see my major problem is with making contact at the point the stride foot touches. You'll notice I've never mentioned anything regarding heel drop and rotate.

Making contact at the time the stride foot touches IMO might be physically possible, but it won't be very productive. I do believe in getting the swing started in regards to feel I jus can't see it making contact at the point of foot touch. And even if that were possible, when and how do you not swing. Intent is very important, but it is just as important to be able to stop. If the barrel is to the point of contact at the time the stride foot touches... You either have to stride hard and fast or commit to early.

BTW - What are your thoughts on this statement by Quincy, especially the part in bold...

quote:

In the second phase of the swing, the bat is at great speed until the bat is forced to turn by the hands thus the wrist break (prefferably right over the plate) again increasing speed.

If we all agree on the position of the body at point of contact. For sake of example... the belly button should be pointing where on ideal contact.

Depending on what anyone thinks, I think we would all agree that at point of contact... hips are open or nearly open.

To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started. There are some very good hitting coaches who believe in getting the hips to cheat in order to open enough on the inside pitch.

What Chamelion describes as feel... most scouts would describe as rhythm. Good rhythm has a flow rather than a stopping starting action.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
That's why I said 'almost perfect'.

It is very clear that his weight is back as he begins his swing. His power is not generated by the leg plant but by the weight shift, the wrist whip and the hip rotation.

Quick swing, no sling shot or catapult action from the front foot planting.

If the front foot isn't down, how is there a weight SHIFT? It is still on the back foot.

Sorry I haven't kept up. When I said that if contact were made before the front foot landed, that would be real late, I meant the foot landing would be late, not the contact of the ball.

I think the idea of getting the foot down early is because most hitters are late on fastballs. I think the front foot has a lot to do with timing. Sosa in the tap, tap, stride. Bonds similar. Even A-Rod with the high leg kick is timing. That is why "early" doesn't work. The reason "early" dodoeses work is because most hitters are late. The reason they are late is generally their mechanics are not sound or they simply are slow. Most players if they keep playing are going to be too slow. That is why there are 9 players x 30 teams who seem to make it.

Coaches, you shouldn't teach to get the foot down "early." Find out why you have to coach that and fix the problem.

If you agree the front foot has something to do with timing then "early" is "early" and "late" is "late." In summary, it is a symptom of a problem.

My kid is starting to throw pretty hard. A lot of hitters are putting what I call "protection swings" on him just to get the ball in play. Most hitting coaches would like the simplicity and lack of momemtum (dead head, dead hands, foot down early) associated with this. Unfortunately (for the offense) it is getting hard to score on him. He gives up very few extra-base hits and strikes out over 1/inning. In other words, the teams getting the foot down early are not scoring on him. Since he is a pitcher (now) I want you to continue to teach "early", little hand movement, little head movement, and a very efficient swing.

There is a "feel" to the stride....The hips are opening and the "intent" is being decided.....

There are varying degrees as to when the "intent" is decided.....It could be a little early or a little late....The hitter may be able to adjust perfectly or not so perfectly.....The speed and location of that particular pitch factors in.....There may be a late swing adjustment and there may not be........

Hitters with good rhythm are the ones who begin the stride early enough, but, can speed it up and/or slow it down, IMO....

PG,

With this swing approach, if contact is at 12 o' clock, then the belly button would be at one thity or two o' clock.

Try to consider the hips opening at wrist break.. Look at ARod again. Wrist break is an involuntary action due to the speed of the bat.

Mic,

Each step you take, you are shifting body weight with one foot on the ground. Weight shift can be as subtle as a slight lean on one foot or two.

BPapa,

Congratulations on your son's success. I'll bet them slow swingers at the high cheese are providing a healthy lunch. I'm imagining batters facing Goose Gossage when he first came up.

I was in the same situation favoring pitchers for the past few years. Now that only a few are still in high school, I can stretch out on hitting a bit. The others are either in college or A ball this year.

Remind your son that Location is King when pitching to quality batters. I showed many kids how to nullify power with the high inside strike or 'Balboni Fastball'

Hips are opening before the foot lands. (I learned this on this website). The hands start coming forward and the rotation accelerates once the front heel lands. That is why PG is correct, the hips are open at contact. The wrists are palm-up and palm-down but there is wrist action into and through the ball.

The outside pitch is taken later and the inside pitch out front. Middle pitches with square contact. The outside pitch can have a batter not fully open on the hips, but not inside or middle pitches.

The toe touches down 1st. The heel touches as the hips rotate. Learned that from Frank Thomas. Didn't help my son much.

quote:

.....but there is wrist action into and through the ball.

This could be debated.....

quote:

The toe touches down 1st. The heel touches as the hips rotate.

Some MLB hitters do this and some begin the rotation of the hips as they stride to toe touch........This segmentation can be caused both ways.....

Bluedog,

The bat is initiated and the barrel comes close to the shoulder as the bat goes into position. If not the hitter would have to "cast" the barrel out at initiation. Therefore, something brings the barrel around. It is the wrists. Most hitting coaches think it is the top hand. It is not, it is the top and bottom hand ripping the barrel through. Both hands initite the knob down and both hands rip the barrel into a hitting position.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started.

May I ask "What are you saying" here?



I see Bonds and Williams hips/foot/leg/knee all begin to open as soon as they pick up their foot to stride. The hips open immediately and this creates stretch against the closed upper body.

This stretch is extremely important....the winding of the rubber band......lower body opens as the upper body remains closed.

Starting the winding process late is the big cause of poor hitting.....NOT getting the foot down late.

Waiting until the foot gets down to wind is the problem.

As to the wrist question....

At the point of the bat going from lag to contact there is NONE. What is seen at this point in the swing is the bat uncocking the wrist....not the wrist uncocking the bat. The wrists uncock the bat at "go". From there it is on autopilot through lag and into contact.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started.

May I ask "What are you saying" here?



I see Bonds and Williams hips/foot/leg/knee all begin to open as soon as they pick up their foot to stride. The hips open immediately and this creates stretch against the closed upper body.

Starting the winding process late is the big cause of poor hitting.....NOT getting the foot down late.



At the point of the bat going from lag to contact there is NONE. What is seen at this point in the swing is the bat uncocking the wrist....not the wrist uncocking the bat. The wrists uncock the bat at "go". From there it is on autopilot through lag and into contact.

They are both cocking their hips as their foot is raised and uncocking as it goes down.

I agree that the hips should be open before the barrel is launced, but you are nuts if you think the bat uncocks the wrists.

quote:

Starting the winding process late is the big cause of poor hitting.....NOT getting the foot down late.

Agreed....The front foot will get down when it needs to if the "stretch" is begun at the proper time.....The slower the pitch, the greater the degree of stretch......

quote:

......but you are nuts if you think the bat uncocks the wrists.

That is not what Chameleon said.........

Micmeister, understand what is said before declaring someone to be nuts, please!.....The discussion is a mute case if you don't follow what is being discussed.......

ARod number 52

Compact efficient swing

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=598042&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
[
That is not what Chameleon said.........

Micmeister, understand what is said before declaring someone to be nuts, please!.....The discussion is a mute case if you don't follow what is being discussed.......

As to the wrist question....

At the point of the bat going from lag to contact there is NONE. What is seen at this point in the swing is the bat uncocking the wrist....not the wrist uncocking the bat. The wrists uncock the bat at "go". From there it is on autopilot through lag and into contact.



Okay, I misread that part of his quote, but I'm pretty sure I understand what he's saying here. He is saying once the top hand fires, it's job is over. If that were the case, you could let go at that point. That's like saying the pushers in a bobsled race don't have to be fast runners. They can just be strong, make one big push and jump in. That's just craziness IMO. The whole physics arguement is mute also, it doesn't apply here. We aren't on the moon, so gravity, friction, the bat still being held by the bottom hand and oh, the ball striking the bat at 90 plus mph all happen that make the bat slow down. If you don't keep up the momentum through contact, the bat will win.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
ARod number 52

Compact efficient swing

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=598042&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

Yes it is, but it has nothing to do with what you are saying.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is a "feel" to the stride....The hips are opening and the "intent" is being decided.....

There are varying degrees as to when the "intent" is decided.....It could be a little early or a little late....The hitter may be able to adjust perfectly or not so perfectly.....The speed and location of that particular pitch factors in.....There may be a late swing adjustment and there may not be........

Hitters with good rhythm are the ones who begin the stride early enough, but, can speed it up and/or slow it down, IMO....

I agree with all but the last sentence. You don't need a stride at all, so how do those guys adjust???

Mic,

Your lack of understanding basic physics and simple mechanics is very telling.

Mostly your posts tell me that you haven't been swinging a bat in while.

What's sad is that you would know and come to understand more when you give this method a try.

The weather is still nice. The kids are playing fall ball. Go on out to the field and take a few cuts your way and then try this way.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
To make contact at foot touch, you would have to touchdown with your hips open. This is completely different than getting things started.


May I ask "What are you saying" here?

Starting the hips is the beginning stage of having them open at contact. No one that I've ever seen is completly open when their stride foot touches down.

Therefore making contact at the exact point the stride foot touches down can't possibly be "ideal".

If a hitter did this, he would either: 1. lose the rubber band effect you speak of. 2. get no benefit at all out of his stride foot (either on the front side or against it). 3. The hitter would not have good balance. 4. The hitter couldn't possibly cover the plate or adjust to off speed.

Or the hitter simply didn't open his hips and just lunged.

Any or all of these things would in fact eliminate the stretch you speak of.

Still waiting for thoughts on the wrist break... "ideally" right on top of the plate as the stride foot touches down and contact is made.

quote:

"ideally" right on top of the plate as the stride foot touches down and contact is made.

Not what I said, but might be what is blocking your understanding.

Break down the swing into four parts. Pick up a bat and try this.

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) In the second phase of the swing, the bat is at great speed until the bat is forced to turn by the hands thus the wrist break (prefferably right over the plate) again increasing speed.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

4) Followthrough, decreasing the speed of the bat with your arms and hands.

Another block you may have is the insistence that adjustment should take place while the 'swing' is in motion. Adjustment should be made as to location and pitch speed before the swing.

Chameleon has a very good clip of Bonds adjusting before the swing.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

quote:

"ideally" right on top of the plate as the stride foot touches down and contact is made.

Not what I said, but might be what is blocking your understanding.

Break down the swing into four parts. Pick up a bat and try this.

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) In the second phase of the swing, the bat is at great speed until the bat is forced to turn by the hands thus the wrist break (prefferably right over the plate) again increasing speed.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

4) Followthrough, decreasing the speed of the bat with your arms and hands.

Another block you may have is the insistence that adjustment should take place while the 'swing' is in motion. Adjustment should be made as to location and pitch speed before the swing.

Chameleon has a very good clip of Bonds adjusting before the swing.

.

One of my "blocks" as you call it, may be this - "centripetal forces." What in the world is that??? Another may be "Adjustments should be made before the swing." How would I make an "adjustment" to something that hasn't happened yet? Another may be your whole #1 statement. How can I start something in motion, relax and start it again and expect it to be faster? What was gained by the first part of the swing? Why not just start the swing where you say you should relax for the first time?

Lastly, I would love to take what you say seriously and go out and experiment with it, but I have no idea how to do what you are saying.

Quincy,

I will admit to being confused.

Sorry I replaced the word Preferably with ideally.

Allow me to ask a few questions.

In 1) What are you calling the first quarter of the swing? How much rotation in the first quarter? what do the wrists do in the first quarter? Wouldn't there be another step before step 1?

In 2) What is the second phase to a swing? Why would it be preferable to break your wrists right over the plate.

In 3) Make contact where? By this time wouldn't the stride foot have already touched?

quote:

Another block you may have is the insistence that adjustment should take place while the 'swing' is in motion. Adjustment should be made as to location and pitch speed before the swing.

Sorry, but if you stride, rotate and make contact with your wrists breaking right on top of the plate as your stride foot first touches down... You are completely commited, bat making contact, hips open, as soon as the stride foot touches down. How do you adjust?

I would ask how in all honesty can anyone agree with this? My main problem here is trying to figure out how and why anyone who has studied hitting could possibly think contact is made when the stride foot touches let alone with wrist break on top of the plate. Shortly there after... OK

All the video that has been produced here so far, has not shown anything even similiar to what you are saying. For crying out loud, hit the pause button until you can see it.

A question for Chamelian and Blue Dog...

Do you guys teach Quincy's 4 step approach exactly as he has drawn it out in this thread? I'm not saying everything he has said is wrong, but I keep thinking about that point of contact.

I'm all for having an open mind, but geez!

Centripetal Force

Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force.


Swinging a mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.

The centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html

READING THE BALL
By Dr. John Bagonzi

Real good batters are likely quite adept at “reading the ball,” and recognizing spins which enhances their ability to choose a pitch carefully.
Reading the ball requires an aerodynamic awareness. It requires an attentiveness and a focus on a particular point – something that many are not willing or able to do. It demands a purposeful intent to achieve a consciousness on a rotating body and removing any inhibitions one has towards the physics of moving objects.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html

A 90 mph or slightly better fastball takes aproximately .5 seconds (half a second)to reach the plate.

The average swing approach with foot plant before forward motion in the swing takes at least .2 seconds (two tenths a second).

This swing approach takes less time due to executing the swing without foot plant as the forward force producing factor of the swing.

It takes about .1 seconds (one tenth a second).

This allows additional time to read the pitch, react to what is seen, as well as generate more force and bat speed.

You implied that you golf. Swing a bat a few times as you would swing a driver off the tee, full swing. Forget everything you know about swinging a baseball bat. Use the technique from the start using that same fluid feeling in the golf swing of the bat.

.I hope that clears it up for you.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

Allow me to ask a few questions.

In 1) What are you calling the first quarter of the swing? How much rotation in the first quarter? what do the wrists do in the first quarter? Wouldn't there be another step before step 1?

In 2) What is the second phase to a swing? Why would it be preferable to break your wrists right over the plate.

In 3) Make contact where? By this time wouldn't the stride foot have already touched?

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) 'Right over the plate' may give you the visual that the batter is reaching out over the plate. In my terminology, it is directly in front of the batter which would represent dead center in the pendulum swing. This pendulum action is what 'breaks the wrists' or uncocks the wrist as was also stated.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

This would happen slightly in front of the plate as displayed in almost every film clip of a great hitter.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Centripetal Force

Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force.


Swinging a mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.

The centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html

READING THE BALL
By Dr. John Bagonzi

Real good batters are likely quite adept at “reading the ball,” and recognizing spins which enhances their ability to choose a pitch carefully.
Reading the ball requires an aerodynamic awareness. It requires an attentiveness and a focus on a particular point – something that many are not willing or able to do. It demands a purposeful intent to achieve a consciousness on a rotating body and removing any inhibitions one has towards the physics of moving objects.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html

A 90 mph or slightly better fastball takes aproximately .5 seconds (half a second)to reach the plate.

The average swing approach with foot plant before forward motion in the swing takes at least .2 seconds (two tenths a second).

This swing approach takes less time due to executing the swing without foot plant as the forward force producing factor of the swing.

It takes about .1 seconds (one tenth a second).

This allows additional time to read the pitch, react to what is seen, as well as generate more force and bat speed.

You implied that you golf. Swing a bat a few times as you would swing a driver off the tee, full swing. Forget everything you know about swinging a baseball bat. Use the technique from the start using that same fluid feeling in the golf swing of the bat.

.I hope that clears it up for you.

Quincy,

Thanks for clearing up the cenripetal issue for me. I believe the thing that has clouded your thinking is that you are equating swinging a bat to tether ball. There are many differences. One very big difference is the fact that one doesn't swing holding a center point at the knob of the bat. Your theory would work if you tied a string to an eyehook on the bottom of the knob, stretched the string and threw the bat. Unfortunately, none of that happens in a swing. IMO, the bottom hand does act as the post somewhat in your scenario and that is why I say you can't take both hands to the ball at the same time. However, in the swing the bottom hand and wrist will slow the bat if force is not continually applied with the top hand.

As far as equating this swing to a golf swing, again, you can't hit the ball as far standing on one foot and you can't let go of the top hand after you've started the swing in motion. I agree that you need to feel the clubhead in golf and the bathead in baseball, but you still need to use your hands to keep them in motion.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

Allow me to ask a few questions.

In 1) What are you calling the first quarter of the swing? How much rotation in the first quarter? what do the wrists do in the first quarter? Wouldn't there be another step before step 1?

In 2) What is the second phase to a swing? Why would it be preferable to break your wrists right over the plate.

In 3) Make contact where? By this time wouldn't the stride foot have already touched?

1) Generate bat speed simultaneously using the stride, wrist and hip rotation in the first quarter of the swing. Now relax.

2) 'Right over the plate' may give you the visual that the batter is reaching out over the plate. In my terminology, it is directly in front of the batter which would represent dead center in the pendulum swing. This pendulum action is what 'breaks the wrists' or uncocks the wrist as was also stated.

3) The bat is now a projectile being affected by centripetal forces. Still relaxed, allow the bat (now at its greatest accelleration) to make contact with the ball.

This would happen slightly in front of the plate as displayed in almost every film clip of a great hitter.

.

I would suggest to you, bluedog, and chameleon to go to a batting cage that throws 90 mph and use just your bottom hand to hit and see if you don't feel the bat bouncing back in your hand.

Mic,

I can tell you used to be an outfielder since your last two posts were so far out in left field.

I know you have to be joking because nobody could be so devoid of knowledge of swing mechanics, gaining simple mechanical advantage or circular motion while discussing a 'swing' of any nature.

Jeff Foxworthy says that I should just say that it is the karate swing.

Just to be safe, have the lead level of your well water tested.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Mic,

I can tell you used to be an outfielder since your last two posts were so far out in left field.

I know you have to be joking because nobody could be so devoid of knowledge of swing mechanics, gaining simple mechanical advantage or circular motion while discussing a 'swing' of any nature.

Jeff Foxworthy says that I should just say that it is the karate swing.

Just to be safe, have the lead level of your well water tested.

.

So...you are saying you can hit the ball with just your bottom hand and the bat won't bounce back???


I'm not the one who said make contact at foot plant, you are! I'm not the one who said to start a violent act (a swing) and then relax and start again, you are!

I can equate you with a comedian and a movie too. Jim Carey and Dumb and Dumber!

Since your swing mechanics are so simple and so successful, you should be teaching some High school and College players and become their agent too. You will be a millionaire in no time! Good luck with your yacht!

quote:

So...you are saying you can hit the ball with just your bottom hand and the bat won't bounce back???

I'm not the one who said to start a violent act (a swing) and then relax and start again, you are!

I never said these things, you did.

When did I equate you to a comedian and/or movie?

I didn't say that you were Jeff Foxworthy. He says that he is smarter than a fifth grader. I liked his line about the 'karate swing' though.

I'll call Larry the Cable Guy to see what he thinks.

A hitting instructor can go along way to validating what he teaches by naming those people that he has instructed. Who are they? Where did they play in college? Did they play professional baseball? Quincy, can you please give us some names of the players you have instructed in batsmanship? If I were a student looking for a hitting instructor who could you point to as a former student that you have helped like you are going to help me? Who is he , where does he play etc etc. Anyone with the wealth of knowledge that you have should certainly have no problem naming numerous players we should recognize. Or at the least some HS aged players in your fine sunshine state. Im sure with your instruction we should have no problem finding them on PG Crosschecker as some of the top hitters in your state.

http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes...sis_AlbertPujols.pdf



Here ya go Quincy! I guess this guy does it all wrong, huh? This may be one of the best frame by frame of a pro swing I've ever seen.

I'm not a hitting instructor. I give tips on playing the various facets of the game. I always say, 'Give it a try and see if it works for you.' Those who do, come back and say thank you only to be told that they are the ones who did well, not me.

While PG Crosschecker is very prestigious, they do not see all that there is to see. They make sellections on MLB shopping lists.

One of the best games of last season here in Tampa had a soon to be third round draft pick with a strong hitting team behind him duel for seven innings against a great little pitcher and a weak hitting team to a one-one tie after seven. The other kid wasn't on the list.

Though PG Crosschecker had a very good hitting ballplayer high on their list that barely ever saw a fastball that he could hit for a homer. Funy how a few tips can nullify power.

I'll never name names. I'll continue to say 'Give it a try and see if it works for you.'

Just like this swing approach.

You probably have noticed that none of the naysayers have picked up a bat.

If I ever need endorsements, I'll have others make them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by micmeister:
http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes...sis_AlbertPujols.pdf



For Chameleon and Bluedog,

How does Pujols get from frame 20 to 22 if he isn't pushing/throwing with his top hand? Why would his right arm need to be bent at contact? If the wrists are no longer doing any work after go, as you say, why would it matter how the hands were placed on the bat at contact. Why couldn't a one armed man hit a 90mph fastball out of a MLB park? On that same thought, why do one arm guys always use their back arm to hit with? Thanks in advance for your replies!

Mic,

Larry the Cable Guy says that he just put up a swing set and one of those things that spin around in his yard. He says he now knows swing mechanics, using mechanical advantage and circular motion.

What a guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Mic,

Larry the Cable Guy says that he just put up a swing set and one of those things that spin around in his yard. He says he now knows swing mechanics, using mechanical advantage and circular motion.

What a guy.

Quincy,

I hear he taught Pujols how to swing, LOL!

What a guy that Larry is !!!

Did you ever see anyone swing like Pujolos before Puljos ?

I wonder if he quickened his swing by not lifting his foot much.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
What a guy that Larry is !!!

Did you ever see anyone swing like Pujolos before Puljos ?

I wonder if he quickened his swing by not lifting his foot much.

I would say at one point in his career he had a lunging problem and that is why he is so spread out and doesn't lift his foot much.

One of the local kids was asking the old guys for tips on his hitting a few years back.

I guess one of the suggestions took for him.

Regarding the Pujols clips…

Clips 13-17 foot down… bat back… nowhere near contact, rotation has just started
Clips 17 – 22 full rotation and contact… no weight on back foot at contact
Clips 22-23 contact point and one frame beyond… no wrist break yet, and well past the plate.
Clip 22 great position at contact.

BTW, this is what is called extension!

That brings up another thought. I don’t understand why we chased away Chris. Whether right or wrong, he brought a lot to the table here. I can say the same thing for many others including some who have posted in this thread. I really respect anyone who puts that much effort into something.

Not my clips, but good to see you.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by micmeister:
http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes...sis_AlbertPujols.pdf



For Chameleon and Bluedog,

How does Pujols get from frame 20 to 22 if he isn't pushing/throwing with his top hand? Why would his right arm need to be bent at contact? If the wrists are no longer doing any work after go, as you say, why would it matter how the hands were placed on the bat at contact. Why couldn't a one armed man hit a 90mph fastball out of a MLB park? On that same thought, why do one arm guys always use their back arm to hit with? Thanks in advance for your replies!

You're welcome.

I posted something and deleted it because it had nothing to do with this discussion.

It was just a stupid post anyway.

Sorry

I read it, and it was a really good post.

Consider re-posting it.

I agree.

PGStaff is a humble man who brings a great deal to the game and this site.

I'm personally glad to see you posting again in the hitting thread. It's seems like you were on the site, but not in the hitting board for a while. It's nice to see your insight and experience. There are, maybe, five people whi I make sure I read every post every day. PG is must read.

On one hand you don't need to defend PG. It is an incredible organization. Yet, sometimes the cheap shots must strike the wrong way. You're fans will always outnumber the few detractors with agendas.

PG, I think what Quincy is trying to describe is the floating of the bat........

The "float" is a term, as for as I know, that originated with Chameleon.....

The bat needs to be moving while the decisions are being made......So, body and bat movement is happening early on in the swing process......This, is what "early" is all about in the swing as for as I believe......

I don't believe Quincy understands that the hands must not move forward early though......

And, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what Micmeister believes......

Centripetal Force

Any motion in a curved path represents accelerated motion, and requires a force directed toward the center of curvature of the path. This force is called the centripetal force which means "center seeking" force.


Swinging a mass on a string requires string tension, and the mass will travel off in a tangential straight line if the string breaks.

The centripetal acceleration can be derived for the case of circular motion since the curved path at any point can be extended to a circle.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html

READING THE BALL
By Dr. John Bagonzi

Real good batters are likely quite adept at “reading the ball,” and recognizing spins which enhances their ability to choose a pitch carefully.
Reading the ball requires an aerodynamic awareness. It requires an attentiveness and a focus on a particular point – something that many are not willing or able to do. It demands a purposeful intent to achieve a consciousness on a rotating body and removing any inhibitions one has towards the physics of moving objects.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html

A 90 mph or slightly better fastball takes aproximately .5 seconds (half a second)to reach the plate.

The average swing approach with foot plant before forward motion in the swing takes at least .2 seconds (two tenths a second).

This swing approach takes less time due to executing the swing without foot plant as the forward force producing factor of the swing.

It takes about .1 seconds (one tenth a second).

This allows additional time to read the pitch, react to what is seen, as well as generate more force and bat speed.

You implied that you golf. Swing a bat a few times as you would swing a driver off the tee, full swing. Forget everything you know about swinging a baseball bat. Use the technique from the start using that same fluid feeling in the golf swing of the bat.

.I hope that clears it up for you.

Same thing as before. This is the more technical version of what I said and what I mean. It seems centripetal acceleration is not well understood.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
PG, I think what Quincy is trying to describe is the floating of the bat........

The "float" is a term, as for as I know, that originated with Chameleon.....

The bat needs to be moving while the decisions are being made......So, body and bat movement is happening early on in the swing process......This, is what "early" is all about in the swing as for as I believe......

I don't believe Quincy understands that the hands must not move forward early though......

And, I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what Micmeister believes......

Taking the knob to the ball as the hips uncoil is early bat movement. Then, starting the upper body to the ball is also movement before the top hand fires. There, I answered your questions, now answer mine if you can.

I give you credit. You said that you didn't understand the concept or the application and you continue to prove that point deftly.

Clarification of centrripetal motion and accelleration was requested.

Good to see that you are consistent and still don't get it.

I'll make it so obvious even you can understand it.

Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.

Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.

On reading the spin,

Who has the best chance to hit a curve ball, someone who reads the break or someone who reads the spin before the break?

Somehow I suspect that you will remain consistent.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
I'll make it so obvious even you can understand it.

Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.

Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.

On reading the spin,

Who has the best chance to hit a curve ball, someone who reads the break or someone who reads the spin before the break?

Somehow I suspect that you will remain consistent.

I quess I learned something,I thought it was momentum we was trying to achieve when hitting a baseball.

It's,

It is said that there is virtue in consistency. I used the other items for purposes of demonstration in the appllcation. Maybe one day, you'll get it.

tfox,

You are looking for momentum, but circular as compared to another direction.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:
I'll make it so obvious even you can understand it.

Why is it that when I would push my child on a swing that the swing would not stop when it gets to level? Centripetal accelleration.

Why is it that when someone swings a bat that it does not stop in the middle of the swing ? Centripetal accelleration.

QUOTE]



Here in lies the problem. Taking your child on a swing scenario, if I throw a bowling ball at the child at any point during his/her swing, they will not reach the same point given the same push as if left alone. The same goes for the bat and ball. If I don't continue the momentum in either swing the ball will affect it adversely.

What you state is correct,there is centrepital motion needed to create momentum to hit a ball,BUT you forget one important part as micmeister is trying to point out.

YOU NEED LEVERAGE to keep the bat from bouncing backwards.

Your top hand creates leverage.

It sounds to me like you are trying to use the old saying ,throw your hands out there and let the bat do the work.


But you are still off base with the front foot.It must be down before contact.


If you would back off that 1 statement,this whole thread would have more since about it. IMO

Somewhat warped scenario, but not applicable.

Continuing in this macabre line of thinking, a baseball at 5 oz is approximately at a 6/1 disadvantage in weight.

If a 200 pound man ran into a 1200 pound object in motion, would the 1200 pound object in motion be stopped?

.

It wouldn't actually bounce back but there is give.That's the point I was trying to make.


IMO,that is why you see the top hand behind the bat and elbow bent on most mlb batters now,rather than on top at contact.


I am sure there are many more with much more EXPERIENCE with this than I have.

Actually you have the proper understanding but attribute the leverage to the top hand rather than the 'string tension' that the hands are creating in the circular motion.

The leverage in circular accelleration is apparent at every change in direction from a straight path.

The hands don't actually create the leverage, but passively assist in the leverage.

So,am I right im my assumption that you are telling the kids to throw their hands at the ball(without actually saying it) because that sure sounds like what you are describing.

In the collission, there are two possible results, compression and/or deflection.

When a bat and ball collide in baseball, there is compression. The bat continues on its path with no deflection.

It isn't throwing their hands at the ball, but using the hands to aim at the ball.

What I have said is that using the first steps to generate bat speed allows the batter to trust that the bat will follow the hands.

There is a difference in bat speed generated.

This should put your front foot notions to rest.
But I doubt it.



http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/the_shifting_sw.php

Check out the difference in the swing and the results of the one you seem to like to post the most.Then look at why the difference in results.



Also take a look at this.Front foot is creating leverage and he sure doesn't look like he has relaxed in the swing.

Man,those arms are scary,but I am 140#'s soaking wet.Heck,I have to run around in the shower to get wet.

Pujols uses the front foot plant style. The fact that it is successful for him justs makes plain that there is no one style fits all in batting.

The big difference in his style and the style that I endorse is the time needed to execute the swing.

Contact at front foot landing simpy catches the last bit of forward motion produced by the stride or weight shift.

If you try the style I am talking about you will be hitting like a 180 pounder.

When I was 13, I weighed about 125. The only bat we had was a 34"-34 oz.

I had to come up with a style that allowed me to handle the bat reasonably. Needless to say, I bunted a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Pujols uses the front foot plant style. The fact that it is successful for him justs makes plain that there is no one style fits all in batting.

The big difference in his style and the style that I endorse is the time needed to execute the swing.

Contact at front foot landing simpy catches the last bit of forward motion produced by the stride or weight shift.

READ THE ARTICLE ON A-ROD that I linked to.

The picture was just a side note.

Good article and analysis.

One for this year would be interesting since he is relying less on generating power off the foot plant.

Have you tried this style that I am speaking of?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Good article and analysis.

One for this year would be interesting since he is relying less on generating power off the foot plant.

Have you tried this style that I am speaking of?

He is relying more on foot plant now than ever before in the past.


I have tried to practice swing your style and it is impossible to do what you say with foot plant.

All I end up doing is lunging off balance and looking like one of the 9 year olds on my sons team.

If you are getting a lunge then you are flying open at start. Spinning as they say. Try staying compact and in control.

Should be something like this

David Wright

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=598363&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

ARod was using big front foot plant last year. This caused to pull almost everything he hit. This year he is using the whole park and staying lighter on his feet.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
In the collission, there are two possible results, compression and/or deflection.

When a bat and ball collide in baseball, there is compression. The bat continues on its path with no deflection.

You have obviously never seen a Freshman in High School face a 90mph fastball, the bat does give. I agree that at a certain velocity the bat won't bounce back if the weight is sufficient, but we are teaching High School and under kids here. Most need leverage and strength to get through the ball. The swing is really no different than throwing a ball. You are pulling at one point and pushing at another, but if you stop pushing at any point before your normal release point you will lose velocity. That is why hitters don't let go of their top hand until they are THROUGH the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
If you are getting a lunge then you are flying open at start. Spinning as they say. Try staying compact and in control.

Should be something like this

David Wright

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=598363&...l=&type=v_free&_mp=1

ARod was using big front foot plant last year. This caused to pull almost everything he hit. This year he is using the whole park and staying lighter on his feet.

Foot down, bat back!

In the case you mention, the bat is not hitting the ball, the ball is hitting the bat. The batter probably would close his eyes and hope.

If a batter can bring the bat around even as a freshman to hit a 90 mph fastball, there is juice in the swing.

The Florida State 6-A Semi Final game had a kid throwing 97 on the gun and still got pounded 10-0. These kids can bring it both ways.

There should be no pushing. Our muscles work by contraction.

If you can use every possible advantage in pulling the bat at the start, you will pull it as fast as you can.

Any attempt to change the flight of the bat after that will slow the bat down.

You're teaching the young kids to carry the bat through the zone. Many people do this especially in Tee Ball. It makes for a slow stiff swing.

Look at the four steps that I mention. It's all about generating bat speed using every possible advantage. It will work for a young kid as well as an MLB player.

The Wright clip was about staying compact and in control.


.