batting practice no -no s

Here's what they usually do at my son's school.
They hit in groups of four. One group is at the cage, soft toss, tee work area; one group is hitting on the field. Everyone else is at their positions either playing the ball off the bat or the fungoes being hit to them by coaches.
First round: In each group one of the four is hitting, one is running the bases, one is on deck and one is skipping rope, doing pushups/situps or something like that. With a runner at first they bunt to first. With a runner at second they bunt to third. With the runner at third they drive him in w/less than 2 outs. Then they get 8 cuts.
Second round: Runner at first they hit and run.
Runner at second they hit behind him. Runner at third they squeeze. Then they get 6 cuts.
Third round: 6 cuts.

In BP, I like hitters to focus on hitting gap to gap unless we are specifically working on pulling the ball. The reason...my grandmother anyone can pull a BP fastball. If the BP pitcher sees a hitter yanking everything, we will throw him further and further away until he gets the message. Sometimes, this results in pitches being thrown in the opposite batter's box but it makes a hitter realize what he is doing and to make an adjustment.

I also like a lot of situational hitting.

If these were my players, many of them would not even be facing live pitching. I wouldn't have them facing live pitching until they have shown that their fundamentals are solid.

SBK,

Ummmm...my kids ARE fundamentally solid.

The routine that I am using with my son involves the use of two different pitching machines at two different locations. (this is besides the "garage" work he does on the heavy bag.
The first machine is a "Iron Mike" style and pitches pretty consistently all the time. He works on his mechanics until he is atleast what I consider 80% power shots. The next day we go to another indoor facility and use a two wheel Jugs machine with rubber balls. This thing is every where around the plate and really makes him adjust to every pitch (Trying to throw in off speed stuff in there but haven't mastered that yet without him noticing what I am doing). Granted this method isn't as good as live pitching (with the exception that my arm don't feel like rubber like after live BP) but for us cold weather folks these pitching machines, I think, are giving my boy a hell of a pre-season head start to his 11 year old season. I know most of you all deal with the older boys but I still think this method has its merits. I just wouldn't spend all my time on one machine.

RedBird,

I wasn't intending my message to be addressed to you. Congratulations on every one of your players being fundamentally sound on their first day of practice.

The initial post was that it was the first practice. I would spend some time having each player demonstrate they remember the fundamentals necessary to be a good hitter in order to make sure they haven’t picked up any bad habits in the off season. If they need to work on something, it may be advantageous to work on it before they face live pitching.

I forgot to mention that I do ask the boy to pull every pitch when on the Iron Mike, which I think is what this thread started out asking but when we get on the Jugs he is supposed to "Go with the Pitch" with power (no slapping at balls for contact, we work 2 strike coverage later)

KC Dad,

My son has taken exactly 0 swings off a pitching machine and I will keep it that way until I cannot throw any more.

To me, a machine does nothing good for a hitter's timing.

SBK,

A good coach is usually involved with his team in the off season. The first day of parctice is probably not the first time a good coach has seen his players swing in the last few weeks. To me, it sounds like swingbuster's son's coach has not been invloved.

quote:

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Originally posted by redbird5:
SBK,

Ummmm...my kids ARE fundamentally solid.

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Teach,

That's right. They haven't been taught by you so they cannot POSSIBLY be fundamentally sound.

Redbird, if I am reading you right, the reason you don't like pitching machine's is because they do nothing good for a hitter's timing. I guess I am confused by this statement. Getting in time with a pitcher I always viewed as a changing intentity, meaning timing changes basically with every pitcher you see. Don't get me wrong here, I am in agreement that live BP is far better than the cage but I am just trying to understand your arguement more clearly.

KC,

With a machine, you cannot develop your timing. There is not a visible series of events that allow you to accurately know when the ball will be shot out at you.

How many hitters do you see that jump on their front foot when using a machine?

KC,

IMO, Redbird is "spot-on". If there is any way to avoid machines, do it. I certainly understand the "arm" issue and I also have an 11yo. Front toss is FAR better and will not kill your arm.

Recruit other dads as well. The more arms your son sees the better. I can spot the coaches son in BP every time. He is the one crushing the ball because he has his dad timed perfectly. Dads, brothers, moms, anyone throwing BP is far more effective. Timing is one of the most critical components and can only be achieved by seeing pitchers throw pitches. JMO.

Teach

Redbird is a great coach!

R.

red,
I will agree that on the JUGS there is nothing really more than me holding my hand up and trying to deliver the ball into the chute in a timely manner (doesn't always work but for the most part it is pretty consistent). The Iron Mike on the other hand has a very "visible series of events" to get your timing down with. Even better though is that this Iron Mike has one of those Electronic pitcher's that are synchronized to the Iron Mike, it really is cool if you have never seen one of these types of setups. Anyways, these are just my thoughts, I don't disagree that Live BP is better but I definately don't view these pitching machines as the evil end-all to my son's baseball career.

KC,

I have seen the Iron Mikes you mention. When I was a hitter, they were difficult for me to time.

I am not saying your method is wrong but I would prefer my son to avoid machines at all costs.

Red,
I think we are in agreement here buddy, if I had the facility to be able to use I would throw live every chance I got. Trust me though the only time we go to the cage after it warms up is right before the game for $1 worth to groove back in his swing and his timing.

Callaway,
I do the front toss with him but it is usually after the Jugs machine and that is because I notice his holes in his swing during the Jugs session and can work out that hole (i.e. low-outside or high inside). I guess I could spend my time in that cage throwing live to him vs using the jugs in the cage to accomplish the same goals. That sounds like a plan, but I still like that Iron Mike for the first day until every thing gets grooved in.

KC

You really hit home on this one. IMO and my experience, the worst time to go to the machines is right before a game. At least with my son, it really messed up his timing. Get to the field early if possible and get him some BP.

One thing I learned, if he didn't bring it to the game, he wasn't going to find it there. I think what you are doing is great, getting your son the reps. Take it from Redbird, who also has an 11yo, just say no to the machines. JMO.

The only thing a pitching machine is good for is shooting fly balls to of and blocking drills. Toss T and live arm. Change speeds when you are throwing bp and change location. Anyone can look like a star when every pitch is the same speed and right down the heart. We set up four stations during our bp. Stage one Twork. Stage 2 soft toss. Stage 3 live arm in the cage bunting, backside and inside hitting. Stage 4 live arm on the field. Change speeds, work backside, work inside, bunting. Every other day is situational hitting with baserunners.

Calloway,
Late last season is when I started this practice of going to the cage right before the game. His first few swings of the bat in the games early in the season was not the most graceful of Ducks, even though he would make contact more often then not and get a few seeing eye singles but he is the number 3 or number 4 hitter and is expected to produce and it just seemed that when I started taking him to the cage before the game his first swings were as good as his last and balls started flying again much earlier in the game. It could be just coincidence however and written off that his muscle memory was getting more intuned as the season went on but I just considered it a ritual after I started up and now it has basically taken on a superstitous undertone unto which seven years of bad luck will come on our household if we don't, LOL. Throw that one top of not washing the hat, not stepping on the foul line and numerous other superstitions he has developed and it makes for a fun day at the ole park.
Back on topic, I can't throw BP prior to games because no one is allowed on the fields but agreed much better option, but I will hand it to Good ole' Iron Mike, he hasn't seemed to fail us yet prior to a game but that might change as he gets older.
Not enough time in the day to properly enjoy this game. Thanks for both your alls wisdom and I agree it makes since.

A lot of overreaction here.

Gear your program to your athlete(s) and his(their) needs.

When you teach a jump shot do you start at the 3 pt line??????

Just how is a machine different than front toss.

Hey KC,

Can't argue with rituals and superstitions! They are a big part of baseball. Please keep me posted on your son. There are a lot of us with sons about the same age (Redbird, Beezer, Bandito Dad, to name a few) and it will be fun keeping in touch.

R.

We play USSSA baseball up here. I am familiar with Bandito Dad's program that he is in down there in Texas, saw them at the Super Series World Series last year (not Bandito Dad but the Bandito's teams). Maybe we will get lucky and make it to the USSSA Elite 24 this year and we can get to see some of these mighty southern teams that are from states other than Texas and Louisiana. There is teams from GA and FL coming up to the Road to Omaha tournament this year which will be fun to play against. We haven't faced anyone from those states. I told my son about that and he was geared up.

Here's a sad pitching machine story...

My 10YO son is attending an indoor hitting/fielding clinic for an hour and a half session per week for 5 weeks run by local indoor facility. Last night was their 2nd time. Well I was getting quite frustrated watching the hitting "instruction".

They had 4 machines setup; 2 at LL distance and 2 at about half of that. All four had other students in the class feeding the balls (w/ just about completely random time delays between presenting the ball and feeding it). They also had one of the full-distance machines set at about 45-50mph, but the other was closer to 60. So what kept happening to the poor kids was that the ball was on top of them before they could load up. Their timing was WAY off.

So, what did the instructors do? If a kid fouled one straight back or missed it altogether, they were right there w/ numerous mechanics cues. I wanted to scream out, "LEAVE HIM ALONE!!! HE'S SWINGING FINE!", but refrained. The only struggle my son was having was getting his hands back in time - again, because he couldn't possibly know when to load up.

Almost all of these kids were having a horrible time making contact like this. So not only were they getting very bad reps, but then some well-intentioned coach was making changes to their mechanics based not on swing quality, but on the outcome of the swing. If the kid finally managed to make the miracle timing and pound one, they didn't say much.

This results-oriented swing coaching drives me a bit nuts. Look at the swing first please.

Oh, and let's mix in a host of other cues - ranging from misleading to just plain awful:

• Lean back w/ the weight on your rear foot in your stance.
• Don't pull your hands back so far (even though getting the lead arm connected is something we've been working very hard on!)
• Throw your hands at it (of course, accompanied by the wonderful visual cue of the coach slapping his hands down at 45 degrees!)

So swingbuster, in response to your thread topic, near the top of MY list of BP no-no's - at least based on my most recent episode - are:

• Not every swing that doesn't result in a crisp line drive requires mechanical changes!
• If you see a whole team/class of players struggling to even make decent contact off a machine, either try pitching to them or soft-tossing or tee work - anything - before monkeying w/ their mechanics.

For the record, I'm not saying that my son and these others don't have things to work on in their swings. I'd just like to see some separation of the mechanics lessons from the timing lessons, or at least some ability to recognize the difference and/or some restraint on the non-stop cue clutter!

Oh yeah... one more thing... my son is frustrated by how each of the 5 or 6 coaches running the clinic seems to have their OWN hitting ideas, and they're not all on the same page. Ironically, the head coach told Kevin "your swing's great, just be careful not to open up your stride foot too much during your stride". Now, is he entirely right (inferring that nothing else needs work)? I don't think so, as Kevin still struggles to get his hands back (and therefore get his lead arm firmly connected to his left pec). But it's not because he doesn't know to do this; he's getting pretty good w/ it at home on the tee. It seems to me to just be that by the time the ball comes shooting out, his hands do start back, but there just isn't time to get 'em all the way back where they need to be before the pitch is on him. My point is that the other few coaches just can't resist filling his head w/ their own personal cues after each poor hit (notice I didn't say "poor swing? ).

Thanks for listening,
Sandman

P.S.
When I built my cage 2-1/2 years ago, I bought a machine. We used it a lot the first year or so. Once he moved up to Majors, I think we've turned it on 3 or 4 times. I prefer short-tossing to him from ~25-30'.

RedBird,

In Iowa coaches are not legally allowed to work with hitters before the first day of practice. How’s that for being arse-backward?

Re: Pitching machines

Most people crank the speed up too high all the time. Keeping the speed down enables the hitter a better chance to load and simulate a live pitching type swing better. Also, I like the atec machine for curve balls.

quote:

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Originally posted by SBK:
RedBird,

In Iowa coaches are not legally allowed to work with hitters before the first day of practice. How’s that for being arse-backward?

Re: Pitching machines

Most people crank the speed up too high all the time. Keeping the speed down enables the hitter a better chance to load and simulate a live pitching type swing better. Also, I like the atec machine for curve balls.

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Redbird, if you are in Illinois, you are also in violation! If a disgruntled parent calls up when little Johnny isn't starting because he didn't come to pre season hitting practice, YOU'LL BE SUSPENDED AND YOUR SCHOOL WILL BE OUT OF THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

good advice Sandman. I am trying to learn to do what you say better...to watch a while in silence....sometimes a long time. I like to have another waiting hitter beside me. I can talk to him and show him alignment tendencies and pitch location issues and quiet my urge to talk to the current hitter.

If the hitter taking live arm is really in need, then pull him out talk to him outside the cage and put him back in. The guy waiting is happy as he gets to hit. The guy that is forced to listen is not getting too much instruction in public and he gets another chance to apply it.

I understand state laws and that is why I am happy that I am not a HS coach. But...I am sure there are some trusted eyes that can watch a coach's hitters and relay that info before the 1st day of practice...or I am sure the kids talk hitting with the coaches after or during school. A coach will still know what is going on with his hitters.

NCAA also bans off season practices with coaches in attendance, yet, somehow every school has "Captain's Practice (or some version)" which is mandatorily voluntary.

Teacherman,
You remind me of that drunk uncle at my wife's family reunion. Sits in the corner mumbles stuff that is uncalled for and everyone shuns. What you posters need to do is what I did after the 1st year. Ignore him until he sobers up and has something constructive to say. Don't pull this bologny on the pitching-mechanics .org site.

I’m like swingbuster, I enjoy reading and learning from these posts.

In regards to the bp question. I have my guys hit oppo first round of 5. This makes them wait and see the ball. And I agree with redbird, hit the ball gap to gap.

The stations we do are this: 5 stations (5-6 players) jv/varsity
1. Bp on field; use the light flight without a bat for bunting (warning track behind home plate)
2. Cage for bp, tiny toss, hands-back hitter
3. Bunting off the jugs machine (charted by manager)
4. Base running
5. Defense fungos, shag, and pitcher conditioning/bullpen

This works out pretty well and can run thru this in 1hr. 15 min.

I have been using a Jugs Machine for my little brother who is 10 years old since about last August. After about 3 months working with it. I had a friend come over and pitch to him. The friend is in the 8th grade and throws about 65 consistently. My little brother had a couple good hits and made contact with about all of the pitches. I had them both acting like it was a game situation. Now I guarentee he could not have hit of him before he worked with the machine.

Machines can definately throw of timing. I have had my brother put balls into the machine and sometimes he is very inconsistant. I can't hit at all. I then stop him and tell him to be consistant with however he feeds the machine. I watch a few go by and time the pitch. I then proceed to hit. Sometimes I do change the way I feed it from practice to practice but I am consistent throughout the practice. I will be able to give a better opinion on how good they are after next season.

For now though, I think they are a great way to get in a lot of swings at a pitch in whatever location you want.

As far as BP no no's talking to the batter that is hitting off a pitching machine while he is still in the cage, if you see something that needs correcting do it at another station where you have time to break it down and work it. Hard to listen, find the ball swing properly and do what the coach is telling you all at the same time. You may as well ask me to chew gum and walk at the same time.

I use a pitching machine to get the Del Taco approach, same place-same thing. The batter only has to focus on a consistent mechanical swing. I feel this promotes motor muscle memory, IMHO, others may disagree. I can focus on other stations, T, Solo hitter, Soft Toss, Stick and Bean, Short live arm (25' away I can change speeds, work inside and out, and save the arm of the guy throwing. Yes behind a L-Screen I am crazy not stupid, this and T work were the most used at Cal State Fullerton when my boys took hitting lessons there.) I believe the most beneficial station I have is the shot live arm BP.

Coach May: Funny you mention pop fly and blocking drills with pitching, my boys catching coach had an Iron Mike throw to him not sos much for blocking drills but to get that same place same thing pitch. He was teaching setup and settling the pitch.