Thought I would add...
During the MLB Winter Meetings in Nashville...
Scouting Directors and DI coaches had a lengthy meeting. One of the main topics was... What do we do about agent/advisors?
Not making judgement here, but one could logically think there must be a problem in order for this to become a topic at that meeting.
Just something to think about, without getting into what some of the problems are.
PG,
If you check back previous posts on other topic in this area, swingbuilder had that discussion with newagent. It began because newagent claims college coaches don't like agents. SB was pointing out one of the reasons why.
My understanding is that agents are telling coaches their "potential" clients want to play other positions that they might be more suitable for the draft. Coaches and scouts feel that should be worked out among themselves, not on teh suggestion of the "potential" agent.
If you check back previous posts on other topic in this area, swingbuilder had that discussion with newagent. It began because newagent claims college coaches don't like agents. SB was pointing out one of the reasons why.
My understanding is that agents are telling coaches their "potential" clients want to play other positions that they might be more suitable for the draft. Coaches and scouts feel that should be worked out among themselves, not on teh suggestion of the "potential" agent.
TPM:
Please stop misquoting me, as I find it quite irritating. I never claimed college coaches, you did. In fact on January 21, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. you posted the following:
No wonder college coaches don't like them!
But wait there's more because you also went on to say:
I was always under the impression that MLB doesn't like advisors/agents when dealing with those heading to college . I was always under the impression that college coaches don't like advisors/agents because many prey on the recruit or college student who may be drafted for no reason other than his own benefit?
My postings have provoked enough controversy. Please make sure you look at the facts before you attribute the wrong quotes to the wrong people.
Please stop misquoting me, as I find it quite irritating. I never claimed college coaches, you did. In fact on January 21, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. you posted the following:
No wonder college coaches don't like them!
But wait there's more because you also went on to say:
I was always under the impression that MLB doesn't like advisors/agents when dealing with those heading to college . I was always under the impression that college coaches don't like advisors/agents because many prey on the recruit or college student who may be drafted for no reason other than his own benefit?
My postings have provoked enough controversy. Please make sure you look at the facts before you attribute the wrong quotes to the wrong people.
PG - Of course DI Coaches and GM's would see advisors/agents as a problem. How are they going to get over on unsuspecting players and parents with someone around to keep them honest? That is a little cynical but not far from reality. The NCAA surely is not looking out for the student/athlete. DI coaches would like to get the best players for the least amount of money and have historically overrecruited to hold a semester long tryout. And GM's would love to sign all their drafted players for little or nothing. I realize there are abuses by all sides but somebody has to give voice to the players.
The indentured servitude that is Minor league baseball and a student/athlete under the NCAA has to be balanced in some way. Congress recently called the NCAA's message statement into question and in response the NCAA took its millions and devised a fund that can go to supplement the student/athlete above the scholarship. Upon application and a showing of need, a student athlete may now get money to supplement their living expenses. I bet this will be fun to get money out of this vault!!
As a parent, you should avail yourself of all the assets at your disposal to make the best possible choices for your child. If one of those choices is to be advised by a professional on the choices facing your student athlete, if the NCAA or MLB don't want to provide that representation free of charge, then it is incumbent on you to find it yourself.
The indentured servitude that is Minor league baseball and a student/athlete under the NCAA has to be balanced in some way. Congress recently called the NCAA's message statement into question and in response the NCAA took its millions and devised a fund that can go to supplement the student/athlete above the scholarship. Upon application and a showing of need, a student athlete may now get money to supplement their living expenses. I bet this will be fun to get money out of this vault!!
As a parent, you should avail yourself of all the assets at your disposal to make the best possible choices for your child. If one of those choices is to be advised by a professional on the choices facing your student athlete, if the NCAA or MLB don't want to provide that representation free of charge, then it is incumbent on you to find it yourself.
I think most of the problems stem form lack of communication and failure to keep promises. Whether on or off the field, they key to baseball is communication. Many college coaches communicate to these kids through recruiters, showcases and mailings. The problem is kids get the wrong idea from this communication. What kids need to understand is just because communication occurs does not meet the interest is great, let alone genuine. If parenst educate themselves about this area and learn what communication is player specific and what communication is not, then there is no need for an advisor. However, since we are talking about recuting there is a level of knowledge that an advisor may have over a parent. For instance, an advisor, through experience or inside information may know that a certain pro team does not like a certain way a certain college develops its players. Where a player does or does not chose to go to college may just be the single most important decision that the athelete makes. Therfore, proceed with caution. Some say caution requires an agent, others say educate yourself. Reasonable minds may differ, and neither one is wrong. What I am trying to say is that for all intense and purposes there is no neutral third-party. The school wants whats best for the school, the pro team wants whats best for the pro team and the parents want whats best for their child. And since the agent does have a personal interest that is most tied to himself, he becomes the easiest target. And there are enough horror stories about agents. In fact, even agents say many in the business are ruthless. I just think no matter who you are dealin with, you have to be careful.
quote:PG - Of course DI Coaches and GM's would see advisors/agents as a problem. How are they going to get over on unsuspecting players and parents with someone around to keep them honest?
deldad,
Guess I never looked at it that way. Maybe we need advisors to help people sort out the advisors who might take advantage of an unsuspecting player or parent? Then advisors to advise us on who is best at advising on advisors.
I always look at it this way... The MLB club drafts a player and gives him money. The college recruits a player and gives him a scholarship. The agent/advisor is the only one who the player might end up paying. All of this can be a big mess.
I'm in favor of those agents/advisors who have lots of integrity and really care about the players. It's just that there are lots of them who could care less about what is in the best interest of the player... because they are so dominated by what is in their own best interest. Sometimes even giving BAD advice!
quote:As a parent, you should avail yourself of all the assets at your disposal to make the best possible choices for your child.
IMO, that is very good advice!
quote:Originally posted by newagent:
TPM:
Please stop misquoting me, as I find it quite irritating. I never claimed college coaches, you did. In fact on January 21, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. you posted the following:
No wonder college coaches don't like them!
But wait there's more because you also went on to say:
I was always under the impression that MLB doesn't like advisors/agents when dealing with those heading to college . I was always under the impression that college coaches don't like advisors/agents because many prey on the recruit or college student who may be drafted for no reason other than his own benefit?
My postings have provoked enough controversy. Please make sure you look at the facts before you attribute the wrong quotes to the wrong people.
I thought you said yesterday was your last post?
Go back to "help me find thread about signing money" page 2 your first post and read on, to refresh your memory. I didn't quote you and offering anyone a chance to go back to see how the conversation evolved into what PG mentioned.
This topic is in regards to choosing an advisor, there is nothing wrong with that option due to the difficult choices and understanding those choices. The person who advises you, can influence one of the most important decsions of ones' life. No one is disputing that fact and what you say above, although not necessarily all that earth shattering for those here, is true.
You have mentioned twice it may be important for someone to use an advisor to gain knowledge about inside recruiting practices of a coach.
If you are hear to educate us, why not give us other important reasons why one should consider using an advisor?
NCAA just settled a class action lawsuit. The settlement includes a provision permitting (but not requiring comprehensive health insurance). hmm...I wonder how that will change the recruitment/negotiation process. I also wonder whether the insurance covers Tommy John surgery or will they find that Tommy John is elective. Sounds like some coaches better carefully scrutinize their staff's pitch count
quote:Originally posted by newagent:
NCAA just settled a class action lawsuit. The settlement includes a provision permitting (but not requiring comprehensive health insurance). hmm...I wonder how that will change the recruitment/negotiation process. I also wonder whether the insurance covers Tommy John surgery or will they find that Tommy John is elective. Sounds like some coaches better carefully scrutinize their staff's pitch count
Ok I got it, so you know WHY that was brought into the suit?
Reasons to Use an Advisor:
1. Good advisors have more reliable information as to the relationship between the college and profesional baseball.
2. Advisor does not have an emotional stake in the outcome of the decision. Yes, he does have a business interest in the decision. However, he is motivated by money and how he, and ultimately you can make the most.
3. Respected advisors can contact professional teams and not be considered a pain. Believe me, there is nothing cute about mom calling the [insert name of professional baseball team here] to inquire as to why her baby boy is not going to be the #1 overall pick.
4. An advisor can prevent the parent from making decisions that would adversely affect their son's career. For an example of what I mean, see reason #3.
5. A good advisor not only assists with negotiations but should also provide a role as a mentor, ie: go to bed early, don't party, those people are being nice to you only because they know you have money etc... Since hearing it from a parent is cliche, a good agent should emphasize these points.
6. An agent when acting ethically provides the athlete the most unbiased and objective view as to the athlete's future in professional sports. Since most people do not play baseball for life a good advisor should familiarize himself with good estate planning attorney's who can properly invest the athlete's funds. Ideally, the athlete can live comfortably off his interest (as opposed to his principal). Further the athlete can then attend school (if he did not attend school earler) and pursue another career. In fact, he could even go to law school (just like Scott Boras did). He might even become a member of a state bar, like Tony LaRussa did.
From what I learned marketing the player from college is simple because his ability markets himself. An advisors job is to prepare the athelete for the trials and tribulations that will occur both on and off the field. We all know that the ability to play is not forever. Therefore, a good advisor should have answers about the athelete's path though professional baseball along with his path afterwards. Afterall, you are never too young to think about retirement.
1. Good advisors have more reliable information as to the relationship between the college and profesional baseball.
2. Advisor does not have an emotional stake in the outcome of the decision. Yes, he does have a business interest in the decision. However, he is motivated by money and how he, and ultimately you can make the most.
3. Respected advisors can contact professional teams and not be considered a pain. Believe me, there is nothing cute about mom calling the [insert name of professional baseball team here] to inquire as to why her baby boy is not going to be the #1 overall pick.
4. An advisor can prevent the parent from making decisions that would adversely affect their son's career. For an example of what I mean, see reason #3.
5. A good advisor not only assists with negotiations but should also provide a role as a mentor, ie: go to bed early, don't party, those people are being nice to you only because they know you have money etc... Since hearing it from a parent is cliche, a good agent should emphasize these points.
6. An agent when acting ethically provides the athlete the most unbiased and objective view as to the athlete's future in professional sports. Since most people do not play baseball for life a good advisor should familiarize himself with good estate planning attorney's who can properly invest the athlete's funds. Ideally, the athlete can live comfortably off his interest (as opposed to his principal). Further the athlete can then attend school (if he did not attend school earler) and pursue another career. In fact, he could even go to law school (just like Scott Boras did). He might even become a member of a state bar, like Tony LaRussa did.
From what I learned marketing the player from college is simple because his ability markets himself. An advisors job is to prepare the athelete for the trials and tribulations that will occur both on and off the field. We all know that the ability to play is not forever. Therefore, a good advisor should have answers about the athelete's path though professional baseball along with his path afterwards. Afterall, you are never too young to think about retirement.
Are you going under the assumption that everyone needs an advisor/agent or just an advisor?
For anyone's information as to what the settlement is about....
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=372
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=372
In a nutshell, NCAA alloted a certain amount of grant money to be distributed amongst certain D-I football and basketball schools, which is fine. The money, was distributed to persons who received athletic-based grants-in-aid from the above mentioned programs, again that is fine too. However, the cap of the athletic aid that any given athlete was entitled too, could not exceed the, "cost of education." Again, not really a problem. A problem arises because there is no cap to the GIA. Instead, the cap resulted from a horizontal agreement. A horizontal agreement is legalize for informal, undocumented and most importantly unlawful agreement. Since the GIA did not require a cap, and the NCAA enforced one such conduct unlawfully restrained trade in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act, also known as antitrust. The NCAA settled without accepting any responsibility. However, had they gone to trial and found to have violated the Sherman Act, they could have been subject to treble damages (three times the amount sought after). Instead of having to pay a lot of money to the government, they chose to pay a little amount to the players. That money is supposed to be used towards job preparation, health insurance (not required read the settlement) and reimbursement for certain expenses (in all liklihood not to exceed $2500-$3000). Although the NCAA accepts no responsibility, they do acknowledge: the uncertain outcome
and the risk of protracted litigation, especially in complex litigation such as the Action, as well as the difficulties and delays inherent in any such litigation. I interpret "uncertain outcome" to mean that a jury could have found that the NCAA violated the antitrust. So the answer is yes, I do know what the case involves. I also know that some will argue that it does not apply to collegiate baseball players as they fall outside the class.
and the risk of protracted litigation, especially in complex litigation such as the Action, as well as the difficulties and delays inherent in any such litigation. I interpret "uncertain outcome" to mean that a jury could have found that the NCAA violated the antitrust. So the answer is yes, I do know what the case involves. I also know that some will argue that it does not apply to collegiate baseball players as they fall outside the class.
Not everyone needs an advisor. And with all due respect, directing people to the NCAA's website to disclose the terms of the settlement is about as useful as going to the Marlboro website to see the terms of the tobbacco settlement. With that said, I suggest you go to www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/02/04/ncaa.
There, you will find a link to the decision in PDF format. There you will find a 53 page agreement (many of the pages are superflous). The important information is scattered inside the first 10-20 pages.
There, you will find a link to the decision in PDF format. There you will find a 53 page agreement (many of the pages are superflous). The important information is scattered inside the first 10-20 pages.
Well there ya go, now you are being helpful!
I am not sure I agree with all your reasons to have an advisor but it was helpful.
I just can't see a mom calling to find out where the team is going to pick their son.
It's important not to sign anything with anyone. I do beleive that is most likely why the NCAA frowns upon advisors/agents, that immediately removes a player's eligibilty. You can't take that back.
I know of an instance where a player signed with an agent before his medical exam and that was the end of him returning to school.
I am not sure I agree with all your reasons to have an advisor but it was helpful.
I just can't see a mom calling to find out where the team is going to pick their son.
It's important not to sign anything with anyone. I do beleive that is most likely why the NCAA frowns upon advisors/agents, that immediately removes a player's eligibilty. You can't take that back.
I know of an instance where a player signed with an agent before his medical exam and that was the end of him returning to school.
An advisor is not a necessity, it is a choice and/or preference. There are some who argue that you don't even need an agent and that you can hire an attorney who will charge an hourly fee to do the same work (See Stephan Marbury). In the end, an advisor is like an accountant. There are some people who do not need an accountant and can do their own taxes (like my father). There are those that would rather use an accountant. Neither way is better, but rather a preference.
Just so you know, moms have been known to call the team and complaint (not directly to the GM, minor league coach). Additionally, when Andruw Jones first started out, his father provided all of the coaches his home phone number just in case Andruw acted up (signed at 16, played in SAL when he was 17). My problem with NCAA is that it does not adequately compensate its players. One of the concerns that lawsuit sought to address prior to settlement was the lack of compensation given to athletes (albeit football and basketball).
As for the player that you wrote about, I feel for him. Worse, the NCAA could have addressed his specific issue. That player may have had a cause of action against the agent for stripping away his eligibility. Further, had the agent been an attorney, the athlete may have had recourse through the state bar and a possible malpractice suit. Like I said, I come here with a different agenda. My objective is to protect the player from the baseball predators.
Just so you know, moms have been known to call the team and complaint (not directly to the GM, minor league coach). Additionally, when Andruw Jones first started out, his father provided all of the coaches his home phone number just in case Andruw acted up (signed at 16, played in SAL when he was 17). My problem with NCAA is that it does not adequately compensate its players. One of the concerns that lawsuit sought to address prior to settlement was the lack of compensation given to athletes (albeit football and basketball).
As for the player that you wrote about, I feel for him. Worse, the NCAA could have addressed his specific issue. That player may have had a cause of action against the agent for stripping away his eligibility. Further, had the agent been an attorney, the athlete may have had recourse through the state bar and a possible malpractice suit. Like I said, I come here with a different agenda. My objective is to protect the player from the baseball predators.
I know the outcome but not at liberty to say.
I am not sure you know the story about a Clemson football player that took in his brother because his mom was a drug addict. The NCAA would not allow him to accept any donations to help raise his brother or even allow coaches wives to give him rides home from school. The NCAA finally gave in and a fund was establsihed for living expenses and other help allowed.
The NCAA has to soften up, but if you allow for two sports, not sure why not the rest.
I am not sure you know the story about a Clemson football player that took in his brother because his mom was a drug addict. The NCAA would not allow him to accept any donations to help raise his brother or even allow coaches wives to give him rides home from school. The NCAA finally gave in and a fund was establsihed for living expenses and other help allowed.
The NCAA has to soften up, but if you allow for two sports, not sure why not the rest.
PG - having had some very negative experiences with prospective advisors and being the victim of some unscrupulous practices, I agree that the object is to pick the best. I don't express sympathy for the agents either.
I know that in our case, which was extremely unique I understand, that we benefitted greatly from our advisor. We made some mistakes and in hindsight could have handled some things better, but we were ultimately the decision makers.
I think that the equation has changed a little in recent years. With the new NCAA rules and the new 6 year minor league contract, decisions are made which will affect a player and his families life and wallet for years. The stakes are growing and there are no do-overs. Now add in the money grubbing and unscrupulous advisors and it complicates it further. You have obviously seen alot more of this than I have but I think that we both agree that there are no easy answers.
I know that in our case, which was extremely unique I understand, that we benefitted greatly from our advisor. We made some mistakes and in hindsight could have handled some things better, but we were ultimately the decision makers.
I think that the equation has changed a little in recent years. With the new NCAA rules and the new 6 year minor league contract, decisions are made which will affect a player and his families life and wallet for years. The stakes are growing and there are no do-overs. Now add in the money grubbing and unscrupulous advisors and it complicates it further. You have obviously seen alot more of this than I have but I think that we both agree that there are no easy answers.
In my experience - dealing with the agent thing was really easy.
It was dealing with the College Coach that was a nightmare.
And there isnt anyone in the world who can protect you from that.
In college baseball - they can still do pretty much whatever they want. IMO. And get away with it to boot.
It was dealing with the College Coach that was a nightmare.
And there isnt anyone in the world who can protect you from that.
In college baseball - they can still do pretty much whatever they want. IMO. And get away with it to boot.
to quote DelDad...
This is not a true statement. I could go into a thesis paper on why its not true.
to quote PG...
Great words of wisdom!
You know, its actually funny. A complete stranger calls a kids house because he is a good player then that family ends up paying some of what the player and the parents worked so hard to gain. Yet the college coach, WHO WANTS THE PLAYER and the PRO SCOUT are the bad guys. Both of which are trying like heck to give him and his family money and the stranger takes the money yet doen't really know the family. Yet that stranger has the players and family's best interest at heart.
You want someone to police pro baseball and college coaches yet you can't see past your nose that no one is policing the stranger EXCEPT the FAMILY. Never made since to me why the family just doesn't police pro baseball and college coaches and keep the money instead of paying a stranger to "SO CALLED" do this for them.
Heck, why shouldn't Johnny just pass his homework off to someone else to do and pay him then Johnny can get the grade for someone else's work.
quote:Most college coaches have no problem whatsoever with advisors. They have dealt with them before and are not affected at all.
This is not a true statement. I could go into a thesis paper on why its not true.
to quote PG...
quote:Maybe we need advisors to help people sort out the advisors who might take advantage of an unsuspecting player or parent? Then advisors to advise us on who is best at advising on advisors.
I always look at it this way... The MLB club drafts a player and gives him money. The college recruits a player and gives him a scholarship. The agent/advisor is the only one who the player might end up paying. All of this can be a big mess.
I'm in favor of those agents/advisors who have lots of integrity and really care about the players. It's just that there are lots of them who could care less about what is in the best interest of the player... because they are so dominated by what is in their own best interest. Sometimes even giving BAD advice!
Great words of wisdom!
You know, its actually funny. A complete stranger calls a kids house because he is a good player then that family ends up paying some of what the player and the parents worked so hard to gain. Yet the college coach, WHO WANTS THE PLAYER and the PRO SCOUT are the bad guys. Both of which are trying like heck to give him and his family money and the stranger takes the money yet doen't really know the family. Yet that stranger has the players and family's best interest at heart.
You want someone to police pro baseball and college coaches yet you can't see past your nose that no one is policing the stranger EXCEPT the FAMILY. Never made since to me why the family just doesn't police pro baseball and college coaches and keep the money instead of paying a stranger to "SO CALLED" do this for them.
Heck, why shouldn't Johnny just pass his homework off to someone else to do and pay him then Johnny can get the grade for someone else's work.
