Behavior problem

At least the parents see and understand the problem. I had a kid like this once (probably not this bad though) and his parents would fight me on any team-related discipline.

EDIT: I just re-read the OP and saw it's a 9-year old travel team.

Kick him off.

It's more difficult if it's an in-house type team.

If the manager (Dad) is a disciplinarian why is the kid still on the team?

I agree, extreme behavioral problems have no place on a team. It is a privilige to play.

Dad needs to do the hard thing and tell his son he can no longer play the game. When he shows that he can be a team player and respect those playing the game, coaches, umpires and himself he can get another shot. In other words time for Dad to be a Father.

I agree. The kid sounds like a good prospect for non-team activities like golf or tennis.

You add by subtracting

Out of college I coached Babe Ruth (13-15yo) baseball. There wasn't travel then, so this was the best ball. I inherited a kid who was the most talented in the league. But he had a horrible attitude. He mouthed off to other teams. He rode the 13yo players on our team when they didn't play well. Due to his family circumstances I was patient with him. About half way through the season I kicked him off the team. Everyone else relaxed, the team played better and won the league championship.

This kid was so athletically talented (should have seen him on a football field) I figured he would end up at Penn State or state pen. He dropped out of school at sixteen. It turned out to be state pen. There were times I felt guilty. But there was nothing else I could do. I told him if he straightemed up his act he was welcome back the following year. But I had enough giving half my attention to one player.

At the end of the season his cousin, also on the team and fourteen told me I was the best coach he ever had. Not because we won. But because I didn't take cr@p from players. The team was competely disfunctional the year before I took over. Kids want discipline. The handful that don't don't have the game as a priority.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Kids want discipline. The handful that don't don't have the game as a priority.

Amen!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
This kid was so athletically talented (should have seen him on a football field) I figured he would end up at Penn State or state pen. He dropped out of school at sixteen. It turned out to be state pen. There were times I felt guilty. But there was nothing else I could do. I told him if he straightemed up his act he was welcome back the following year. But I had enough giving half my attention to one player.

Hey RJM, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this at this point, but the last thing you should feel is guilt. You sent the kid a warning sign. Probably one of many coming his way. He didn't heed it. Now he pays the price. More important may be the message you sent to the rest of the team. Think how many you may have set, or kept, on the right track.

quote:

Will said...You add by subtracting

Bostonbulldog ... There's no reason to PM me with statements that can be in a post. There was nothing private about the PM. My response to you is, even a clock is right twice a day. But this means the clock is right fourteen times per week which is way ahead of your pace.

There are some behavior problems coaches are not equipped to handle,the child could need professional help.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Bostonbulldog ... There's no reason to PM me with statements that can be in a post. There was nothing private about the PM. My response to you is, even a clock is right twice a day. But this means the clock is right fourteen times per week which is way ahead of your pace.

What about an atomic clock?

I just wanted to make sure you couldn't use the adverb "never" when discussing how often I'm right.

I can tell you where these behavior problems often come to a head its on the field where they feel they can direct those behaviors towards the umpires...

Thats a quick ticket to the parking lot as I dont legislate by ability, I dont care if you are the best player or the worst player....if you gotta go, you go....

Dishearteningly enough, often a coach will come by after the ejection and thank you for handling the issue.......

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
There are some behavior problems coaches are not equipped to handle,the child could need professional help.

I agree. The behaviors described are about much more than a baseball team. Parents should have had this kid to a mental health professional long ago.

Agree the kid needs a mental health professional...
the biggest indicator that i have experienced and makes mention in the OP is that if the kid blows up and you just cannot get him to come back to calm, normal sports-behavior with reasonable talk... it's just not going to work out.

Thank you all for your replies.
It strikes me that of all the knowledgeable and experienced dads/ fathers/ coaches/ scouts, etc that have replied, there has not been even one who sees this behavior pattern fixing itself with maturity and experience. Hoping he grows out of it on his own is not expected by anyone.

Does anyone have a story of a behavior pattern like this that improved significantly (personally, I don't)?
We tried everything we could think of year after year with the first kid and it never really got better. I think this behavior exists with less talented kids and just doesn't get noticed as they are left behind.
I haven't talked to his dad yet and it will be painful if I do. His oldest is eight and he only has a couple coaching seasons behind him, but he is a sharp guy and probably sees this realistically. I would think he is holding onto the hope it can fix itself.
If he chooses to significantly discipline his son and still continues to manage the team maybe that will get the kids attention?

Assorted thoughts...

Some good points and advice made here so far.

What ever happened to the first player? I don't know your relationship with the dad/manager of the new player but at some point, it may be beneficial to tell him your story of the first player. The story probably won't have the desired impact on a 9-yr old yet (or it might??) but it may with Dad.

Any chance there are team rules already in place that help define actions/consequences?

Your post describes the problems in this way...
"...the whole time- inconsolable after a loss or a personal shortcoming. Horrible teammate, telling others they "sucked" and riding them for errors".
You say there is much more and I will take your word that the problems were significant enough that nothing you tried was going to help.
I have had some players along the way who have demonstrated similar traits and actions. If I was in charge, there were immediate consequences. If i was #2, I would certainly recommend immediate consequences. But, just as importantly, I always tried to help that player fully understand the negative impact of their actions. As long as the player was in the program, I would try hard to not give up on influencing the attitude and/or the thought process that was behind the actions. I certainly have seen such players improve, whether it was due to maturation, medication, discipline, education, guidance, trial-and-error, peer rejection or some combination thereof. I like to think that any discipline, education, guidance and support I provided as a coach/mentor was, in some small way, instrumental. I'm not saying don't give them the ax when it is called for but I am saying don't give up on them. Even if you half to cut them loose but have given them every bit of guidance you could, it may help them at some point down the road.

FWIW, I know of a situation where a now-hall-of-famer was playing in college. He had many of the same issues you describe. He was by far the most talented position player on the team, knew it and acted like he knew it. It took a single instance to shake him up a bit. In the middle of a college game, he berated a lesser-talented player for not getting to a ball in the OF because he was too slow. This other player called time out, stopped the game, walked to the infield, got in the face of the future HOFer and told him to never do that to a teammate again (I'm giving the G-rated version). Other teammates supported the stance of the other player. From that day on, he was a different person. Today, he is known for being one of the most gracious and giving people associated with the game and I have experienced that impressive behavior from him first hand.

We had a kid like this several years ago in youth baseball. He was talked to, suspended, kicked off the team etc. I just saw him at the High School the other day and was saddened that such an incredible athlete is no longer competing.

Of course he should be confronted and then warned along with his dad about the destination of his current path using sum of your experience. Sometimes kids act this way because they don't comprehend the long term results.

A thought: All too often these things are handled to quietly, i.e. private meetings, kid is suddenly off the team and everyone is discussing(gossiping) amongst themselves. How about making it a matter of public discourse as a method of large scale accountability? If he and his dad are committed to working through it, talk about it openly on the team time as though he were a diabetic or someone with turrets. It could take the sting out of his stupid comments if everyone ignored or was able to laugh off his behavior (not that there wouldn't still be consequences). Again if the whole team believed that they might have a hand in keeping him out of the State Pen they might just be effective in changing his course. His problem could actually bring the team together working on a project, "keep Tommy out of jail". Really overt honesty might just do the job if everyone buys into it, if they all believed the options were something equivalent to the Hall of Fame vs. Jail.

Don't give up, never give up!!

Husband coached a youth team years ago, and had a talented player much like the one described. After 2 years of patiently instructing, cajoling, redirecting, and fruitless discussions with parents (dad insisted he was "just like him" until he grew out of it at 12), he had to let him go. He is a 2013 and from what we hear, he is no longer playing and is on his third high school (kicked out x2). I'm guessing he never outgrew the behavior problems.

As a dad/former coach/and a current mental health professional, my advice is to help the parents with seeing the advantages to having him evaluated professionally. Any person willing to "up the ante" to the point where it is destructive to himself and others is sending a signal that he needs help. There could be many reasons, bio-physiological or environmental, but he is certainly letting those around him know that he is not coping well. Help him by getting him to the right people who can work with him and the family to find the right way to help himself. Probably not something he can be coached out of in a few hours a week on a baseball field. That being said, supporting whatever remedey(s) that are put in place can go a very long way to helping him recover and learn how to enjoy himself and others and a game that can teach him teamwork, discipline, and how cooperating with others in a positive way can create success. Best of luck! Perseverence is the key...leave no child behind.

J23

quote:

Originally posted by J23:
As a dad/former coach/and a current mental health professional, my advice ...

J23

worth quoting out of context...

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
You add by subtracting

the kid gets a pink slip----see ya

quote:

Now I'm coaching on a 9 year old travel team and the manager's son is the spitting image of the kid I just described, right down to the red hair and being a natural catcher. His dad is a disciplinarian and is frustrated. benched him last game when he told a teammate he sucked and that our team would never win. He came in second at a hitting contest today at practice and I told him to congratulate the kid who won. he looked at me like I had two heads and said, "I'm not doing that!"

Certainly, you sound like a tremendous Coach whose heart is certainly in the right place.

I agree with the the two basic ways of dealing with this that many have pointed out. That would suggesting to Dad that his boy may need Counseling beyond what either of you can provide. Secondly, until the boy and Dad take ownership of that approach and agree to begin work on the program, that he needs to leave the team! They, the boy at least, are in "denial" and nothing is going to change until the Dad takes the bull by the horns and gets him help.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:

quote:

Originally posted by J23:
As a dad/former coach/and a current mental health professional, my advice ...

J23

worth quoting out of context...

smh

I agree with J23. Unfortunately this behavior can be set so early that if not diagnosed and treated early, these children end up in bad places. Children like this seem to lack empathy. For example, as a toddler/preschooler he knows not to hit, but he does not know why, even though he crys if he gets hit or is pushed. This morphs into something less physical and more verbal as the child grows older.

A baseball coach is in no way trained to handle a 9 year old with this behavior. Kudos to you and others who try to help, but parents really need to seek therapy. I wish it were as simple as more discipline - sure would be easier. Good luck

These are always tough situations for any coach to deal with. All kids are different and treating a kid fairly does not mean treating them all the same. Many of the kids you mention are talented kids. Why do you think that is? All too often, coaches are willing to give the talented kid "another chance." Kids are not dumb. They learn this pattern and keep getting those second chances until they get to high school or college where time is up and coaches need to focus on the players that are there to learn it the right way. Next thing you know they are out of sports all together. Start with a meeting with the parents and ask them what they want to get out of baseball other than fun and playing ball. What life lessons are they looking for? If they aren't looking for any, then your program should not be for them. If they want to develop sportsmanship and accountability for hard work,leadership, and playing the game the right way then you can work together to help the kid. My suggestion, is that the player is told that his negative attitude is not helping him or the team. He will be allowed to practice but may not play in games until he exhibits appropriate behavior on a consistent basis. When he can show up and act the right way, he can earn his way back into the line-up. This understanding has to start from day one. My own son (9) struck out Saturday and came to me blaming the umpire. I help coach and cannot stand blaming umpires (especially when the umps are 12 yr old kids.) My words were simply, "Son, we are here to have fun and learn the game the right way. The umpire did not strike out and does not get any more at bats this game. You do. If you would like to stay and have fun and play hard, stick around. If you are going to complain. Please ask your mother to take you home and I will see you after I coach your team-mates." He realized his error, hustled out to play his position and went 2-3 and kept a smile on his face throughout the game. We have a rule on his team, anyone that does not run onto or off of the field, or yells at a team-mate, does not deserve to play. They are are pleasure to coach.