Bench Press?

I am a pitcher (16) and i heard the same thing. I wanted to continue getting stronger for hitting though so i changed to Dumbell Presses, which i heard were better.

DB Bench Press is probably a safer alternative. Bench done on a Swiss Ball might be the best alternative. However, if these aren't done correctly they still can cause problems. That probably just goes without saying because any lift done improperly can have a negative effect.

Mike Griffin

Mike G,
How do you do Bench Presses with a SPARQ ball? And I also like to do Closed Gripped Benches with a bar. It really gives you a good tricep exercise.

as a lifter i know and i have learned a barbell bench is detrimental to a pitcher and was told to do DB bench instead, incline,decline,flat. barbell bench tears shoulder muscles which sometimes prohibit them from strengthening properly i believe, so DB is 10x's better in my opinion, and 10x's more effective, barbell doesnt give u as good of a workout either

To do bench with a Swiss Ball, you will have just your shoulders on the ball, your abs tight(kinda like your hips tucked under you), and usually you will feel your butt and hamstrings engaged to hold your hips and abs this way. Then you just do bench press with the dumbells while keeping this position. Make sure your elbows are not straight out from your body but angled down slightly(toward your waist). Close grip bench is more of a tricep exercise.

Any sort of bench done on a swiss ball is retarded. Pretty much anything done on a swiss ball, besides sitting or bouncing, is retarded. Oh, and mike, angling elbows parallel as opposed to perpendicular makes it a more triceps dominant lift.

LoneLobo,
Thanks for sharing your overwhelming expertise with everyone.
Mike Griffin
No Excuses Baseball

Lone Lobo,
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Mike G is more qualified than just about anyone on this forum. Where do you get your notions about Bench Pressing from?

Bench is really something a baseball player should be and even certain sports dont recommend it or demand it like football, the muscle that bench builts makes your arm tight, thus hard to throw and be as flexible or have the potential you need to throw especially as pitcher, I agree with Mike G and the swish ball, that works and also strengths the rotator cuff. The thing about bench press is that the bar is straight and you cant go down far enough as you could with dumbells, even boxers dont bench press that much because it builts that wrong muscle I guess you can say, especially like maxing out on the bench.

Yeah Knocturnal, I agree that dumbell Bench Presses are so much better because it allows you to have a full range of motion and it hits a different part of your chest muscles, thus giving your chest a more defined look.

AK, how does the bar not give you a full range of motion if you dont go too heavy and do it right? If you mean dumbell only for hitting the inner pecs then you are stuck with a beach boy workout im afraid.

Lilbomber,
Good question. When I mean full range of motion, I mean that you can bring your arms closer down to the ground. You bring up a good point about the inner pecs. I'm only in HS so I am not an expert by any means but I personally think that you must do a little bit of both to achieve that fuller look. What I do is usually alternate bar benches one week and DB benches the next. Anyone else feel free to chime on in.

why/how does barbell bench press tear your shoulder muscles?

All baseball activity must be very specific to baseball. In your case, throwing a baseball. Doing bench presses will help you do bench presses. They may not hurt you but they won't help you with baseball throwing. By the way, if you are bench pressing I would not lower my elbows below the acomial line of your shoulders.

While specificity is important, it can be carried too far. If you are saying that only throwing a baseball will help baseball players become better, I think you are carrying the specificity too far. Lifting weights has many benefits to baseball players.

While bench press certainly should not be a major lift in a baseball players routine, it does help balance out the body. Back muscles are very important because they help hold the scapula and shoulder in the proper place. If you back is very strong but your chest is weak then you will be out of balance and inclined to injury. Bench press should never be the focus of a baseball workout but it shouldn't be ignored either. Another issue is how far to go down on the bench press. If you continue to go through the entire range of motion while lifting, its much tougher to lose range of motion. However, it is important to keep your elbows from being abducted 90 degrees. In other words, you arms shouldn't be straight out from your shoulder. I wish I had a better way of explaining it because there are many planes and angles and it can be tough to describe them in words.

Mike Griffin
No Excuses Baseball
http://www.noexcusesbaseball.com

Hi Mike:

To hit a baseball better or throw a baseball faster, all training must be very very specific. Doing bench presses is OK for general health but doing bench presses makes one good at doing bench presses not hitting or throwing a baseball. Running up and down stairs may be good for general health but is of no use when it comes to pitching. Would that it were that easy.

Specificity is important but it can be carried too far. I would never say that bench, or any lift, would make you a better baseball player. The goal of strength training is to give you more athleticism (sp?). Then you must apply that athleticism to your skills that you practice every day.

Sometimes there are some secondary benefits that make the specificity line blurred. Using your reasoning, doing rotator cuff exercises doesn't help you be a better pitcher, all it does is help you do rotator cuff exercises. However, we all know that rotator cuff exercises prevents injury which helps you stay on the field and at the top of your game. One of the main benefits of strength training is injury prevention.

Basically, I agree with you that benching makes you better at bench, but I feel like you are carrying the specificity too far.

Mike Griffin
No Excuses Baseball
http://www.noexcusesbaseball.com

"Specificity is important but it can be carried too far. I would never say that bench, or any lift, would make you a better baseball player. The goal of strength training is to give you more athleticism (sp?). Then you must apply that athleticism to your skills that you practice every day.

Sometimes there are some secondary benefits that make the specificity line blurred. Using your reasoning, doing rotator cuff exercises doesn't help you be a better pitcher, all it does is help you do rotator cuff exercises. However, we all know that rotator cuff exercises prevents injury which helps you stay on the field and at the top of your game. One of the main benefits of strength training is injury prevention."

Rotator cuff exercises does help injury prevention if you are have a weak rotator cuff. It doesn't help you become a better pitcher, it just helps reduce injury. That's nice that strength training can prevent injuries but it won't help someone throw more strikes. You have to pitch off a mound to throw more strikes from a mound. You can't just expect to be better at it because "Hey, I just benched 250."

"Basically, I agree with you that benching makes you better at bench, but I feel like you are carrying the specificity too far."

I disagree, if you want to be better at hitting, you practice hitting, you don't take 4-5 monnths off of hitting while working on gaining more muscle, then expect to go and hit line drives. But that's my opinion.

I never said anything about taking 4-5 months off of hitting. However, you focus does change throughout the offseason. At the beginning of the offseason you don't work on the skill as much as you do strength. But the closer you get to the season, the more important the skill aspect of baseball should be focused on. This basic idea is called periodization. I'm actually going to write a newsletter about periodization on my website in the next two weeks. Its free to subscribe to so sign up if you want to know my thoughts in more detail.

You can disagree if you would like but I can tell you that this is the basic idea that most if not all professional and major college baseball teams approach their year long plan. I know this from experience. In the end, it is your responsibility to have yourself ready for the season and you have the responsibility to research the best way to prepare yourself. I'm just trying to bring my knowledge and experience to you guys to help you.

Mike Griffin
No Excuses Baseball
http://www.noexcusesbaseball.com

Xfactor,

I missed one of your paragraphs in your post the first time so I want to respond to that as well. If you will look at the original intent of this topic, you will see that it was NOT about certain exercises helping you throw strikes. It was about whether or not bench was bad for you.

You are putting words in my mouth if you think that I said that benching 250 makes you a better pitcher. That is ridiculous. However, strengthening your rotator cuff actually might help you throw harder. It has been well documented that people coming back from Tommy John surgery sometimes come back throwing harder. Many people think this is because they have a new strong ligament in their elbow. However, even Dr. Andrews said there is a good chance that it is from them doing the proper arm exercises, like rotator cuff exercises. I realize that velocity isn't the only thing that makes a pitcher better but it is part of the equation. Don't think that I'm some muscle head that doesn't know baseball. I also pitched in college so I realize that command, changing speeds, and many other things are factors that make a great pitcher.

Staying injury free is one aspect of a pitcher helping a team win games. You can't throw any strikes if you are injured so taking injury prevention out of the equation is a big mistake.

Mike Griffin
No Excuses Baseball
http://www.noexcusesbaseball.com

Great discussion:

Professional athletes must train daily to maintain their skills. Rest equals atrophy. I would encourage you to read the following questions at drmikemarshall.com. From the 2005 Questions: #170, #648, # 652. from the 2004 Questions #007, #053, #110, #126

The answers should spark some debate on the specificity of exercise questions, weight lifting and the proper way to train rotator cuff muscles.

Dr Marshall won the CY Young Award in 1974.

I didn't say you were a "muscle head" I'm just saying that adding muscle in your arms won't help increase your velocity because there is hardly any muscle activity in the arm during acceleration.

Sorry if I offended you, ticked you off, etc...

I can get a little defensive about the issue because I have spent a lot of time trying to help uneducated coaches on the benefits of strength training. Many muscles in the shoulder girdle are active(some as stabilizers) when throwing a baseball. When throwing, any weakness from your feet to your fingertips will limit you by that weakness. Its an interesting and complex topic but also important.

Mike Griffin
No Excuses Baseball

an extended period of time of not doing anything would cause atrophy
If you take 1 day off I highly doubt it'd make much of a difference. Even 2-3...maybe even a week off of pitching wouldn't cause a significant increase. Might throw off your timimng just a little bit, which would cause a small drop in velocity and you may think it's because of atrophy.

From the time the pitcher lands until ball release there is virtually little muscle activity going on in the pitcher's arm. That was proven in an EMG study by famed orthopedic Dr. Frank Jobe back in 1983. They put electrodes on the pitcher's arm and discovered that there wasn't much muscle activity going on. In other words, muscle contraction is not what drives the arm into acceleration. It is stored elastic energy that comes from the body's forces prior to accelerating the arm. This also means that there is not much a pitcher can do to develop more power once the front foot lands.

X:

If there is little muscle activity going on from the time the glove foot lands until release how do you account for the blown rotator cufs, labruns, UCL's, etc?

bench pressing will make ur arms and shoulders bigger which i think will make it harder to get your arm around and your arm will become slower

Maybe it's due to the deceleration phase? And any weak link in the body could cause an increased chance of injury. If your arm isn't properly conditioned and all the forces that act upon it during deceleration.. it can cause problems

The subscapularis muscle, one of the 4 rotator cuff muscles, is used to accelerate the pitching arm. It is not used for deceleration. Yet, this muscle is all too often the one that pitchers hurt.

How about bad mechanics? There are major leaguers who throw 92-93 MPH and don't have the 100% correct mechanics. They could easily increase their accuracy and 2-4 more MPH on their pitches if they wished to correct it. But many in the Majors, once they get there, think they know everything now.

Mark Prior supposedly had perfect mechanics. He does not. You must adhere to Newton's 3 laws of motion when throwing a baseball;Inertia, Accelation and Reaction. I think major League baseball is finally catching on that you must drive the baseball in a straight line (Inertia). No one uses Newton's Law of Reaction that I know of. Therefore, there is no major league pitcher with perfect mechanics.

Personally I do like to see some bench press involved primarily because of the work the internal rotators recieve, such as the subscapularis. I do not like see players continue to use heavy weights with this exercise after coming out of the strength and power phases of the off season workouts. Not only bench press but any pressing movement to include the military press and push ups will also involve the internal rotators. It seems to me that most of the time the external rotators (Infraspinatus and teres minor) are neglected and need to be tended to by exercising them with band and or light dumbbell work.
If I recall correctly Dr. Jobe's work involved the shoulder, meaning the deltoids and rotator cuff muscles. I agree to the point that these muscles have diminished activity during acceleration but what about all the activity that occurs leading to the acceleration phase that last approx. .05 sec? What happens after the stride foot lands and a higher sequence of loading is taking place? How is that elastic energy transfered? To somewhat condense I just want to focus on the torso on up as to potential for improving power once the stride foot has landed. Again the subscapularis because it was mentioned in an earlier post. As the torso begins to rotate open the subscapularis fires and begins to internally rotate and extend the humerus. The bicep is somewhat active and involvement of pec. major, serratus anterior and the lats occurs during this phase. As the pitcher accelerates the scapula starts to protract as the body begins to move forward and the tricep increase in activity as well as the lats, pec major and serratus anterior. Now as the throw enters into the deceleration phase this is where the joint load stress is at its highest and all the muscle groups go into eccentric contraction to slow the arms rotation.
If you would like another reason for proper strength training you might think about in terms of this. To properly maximize transfer of energy from the torso to the shoulder timing of trunk rotation is essential. A much more delayed trunk rotation and lower shoulder internal rotation torque occurs in pro pitchers. If you were to break it down by group from pro to youth you would more than likely find the youngest have the earliest opening of the torso and progressively improve as they get older. This improvement probably happens due to better training all around.
You cannot draw one specific model and clone it. You have to work each instance individually and adjust your training according to that players capabilities. This not very in depth so feel free to take your best shot and maybe we can all learn something. JMO.