Best team for improvement

I think there's a bit of a discrepancy between the title of this thread "best team for IMPROVEMENT" and option #2 where a player would "STAND OUT."

This question is pertinent to my son as well. In our case, I could see him getting frustrated with the lack of playing time. In example #2, you don't mention the quality of coaching, but if it's decent, I would choose #2 even if the team is mediocre. I think the general consensus around here is to choose the highest level where son will play regularly.

I really think it's a matter of personal choice. Again it comes down to the all important "fit" when choosing a college. Having watched rosters for a few years it's always interesting to see how they change from year to year. I always wonder what happened to those players that were at a school as freshmen, then they're on the fall roster, but somehow don't make it on to the spring roster.

Did they lose interest in baseball or were they cut from the team? Many times we'll never know unless you personally know the kids.

I also it depends on what your player wants. Does he want to be on the field or sitting on the bench?
They may all be on the bench at times but he has to determine how much playing time he wants. This can depend on the program he chooses.

Are you asking this question just in general or is your son in this position? There are no right answers to this question but you should get lots of opinions on this site.

LHPMOM,

Sent you a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
Assuming it's a choice between one of these two, which option is best for continuing player development:

-- A powerhouse team with good coaches that attracts so many players that even good kids spend a significant time on the bench;

-- A mediocre team where a good player would stand out and play just about every inning.

I guess the crux of the question is this: Is the most overriding factor determining a player's progression the amount of playing time he gets, or the quality of the coaching and practices?

Debate. Discuss.

LHPMom

Are you asking about high school or travel?

LHPMom:

For me, I think you place a developing kid where he's going to play and get experience and repetitions, regardless of standing out. The one caveat/concern I have is the level of coaching...if there is significant drop-off in coaching (particularly of fundamentals)...that may change the situation.

** Is it possible that you could get the coach of the more "prolific" program to work your son out...and find out if he'd play much on that team?

Here was our situation:
My guy is a 10th grader at a large FL high school and plays summer ball with a strong travel/showcase program. After spring tryouts the V head coach offered him to either a) be the back-up catcher on V to a junior national player who is a year older or b)play down on JV at SS with the possiblity of moving up when appropriate. Now, the problem with option A was that he is expected to start at SS/MIF on V as a junior. He/we also knew that a season of sitting would drive him nuts and also be bad developmentally. So, HE chose to play down ... has gotten every rep at SS except for the 4-6 games where he's played on V.

Suffice it to say, I think you go where you are going to play. You can never get too many AB's.

LHP2012mom,
I'm going to make the imaginative leap that your son is a pitcher, and further assume that he has more of a future in pitching than as a position player.

In that case, the important things to look for are a team which needs him as a pitcher, and that plays against quality opponents. If, for example, he were considering two high schools in the same league (or leagues of comparable quality), he will get nearly equivalent pitching experience on either team-- provided he gets the ball. So the weaker team is likely better for development. I think it's a rare high school that has a strong pitching coach, so I doubt that would be a significant factor.

For hitters, the situation is a little bit different. A player at a weak school will see less skilled pitchers, whether the league is strong or weak. And, IMO, there is more effective coaching of hitters and position play in high schools, compared to pitching, so the stronger and better coached school may be the better choice.

A powerhouse travel team with lots of good players? Unless your son is good enough to get a start in every tournament, he won't be developing as a competitive pitcher, and likely will get less of that good coaching than the top pitchers on the team. Actually, private instruction is the way to develop pitching mechanics, whereas competition develops the mental and emotional aspects. Go to a team where he can play.

quote:

Are you asking about high school or travel?

Would your answer differ depending on the type of team?

Just hindsight; in our case I discovered this web site about 8 months too late.

LHPMom

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:

quote:

Are you asking about high school or travel?

Would your answer differ depending on the type of team?

Just hindsight; in our case I discovered this web site about 8 months too late.

LHPMom

Yes. High school is twenty-something games. Travel is more like fifty. My son is very fortunate to have an excellent high school coach. But if he didn't I wouldn't worry about it. He'd get everything he needs from his travel coaching staff.

At the point in 8th grade it was time to make decisions about high school, the high school baseball program was in disarray with a weak coach. I decided it wouldn't matter versus paying 12-24K (depending on offer) to play at the private interested in him. Our high school is as strong academically for the top end students as the private.

#2..A player has no shot at making all-anything sitting on the bench. Playing is where it's at.

If you are talking about youth and travel ball I would say play wherever your player is challenged and gets a chance to play as many innings as possible. You don’t develop into a ball player by sitting on the bench.

As the player becomes older (16+) and if he is deemed to be a potential "prospect" then I would say the selection of a team becomes more about potential exposure (recruiters and/or scouts) than playing the majority of every game. If you are the best on a team but nobody sees you…

Many of the “showcase teams” like East Cobb, Midland, NorCal, Dirtbags (Arsenal in our area) are full of top players so it is not unusual to split innings with another player in your son’s position. If you sons team is playing in front of the college/pro decision makers it’s becomes not so much about how many innings you play, it's what you do with the time you are given. One thing I would however suggest is to talk to the “showcase team” management about how they handle playing time at the national events. While it’s great to win a championship, if it’s a “showcase” team it should be more about giving all the players adequate opportunities to be seen vs. taking home a trophy. Getting 2 at bats or 1 inning of pitching over a showcase tournament in my opinion is not what I would call exposure. Knowing the teams philosophy upfront before joining a team can save everyone involved some bad feelings down the road.

Actually there are other benefits of being part of a “loaded team”. I have observed that playing on teams that have a few studs (that may even be better than your guy) can actually help your guy get exposure from top schools. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen/heard scouts come to see a particular player and leave the game with two or three additional names on their lists to follow because of what they had seen while watching the game that the “stud” was part of.

Most importantly, if your player is not enjoying the experience then it doesn’t matter what team they are on. If they are lucky enough to be considered a prospect the recruiting process and baseball can start to seem like a job. The best advice I can give as a parent is to try your best to make sure it they are enjoying the experience. If at the core they don’t love the game and resent the process then maybe they should find something else that makes them happy. I think we sometimes get too caught up in the “what’s next” part of baseball. I wish in my oldest son’s early years of baseball I had taken more time to just enjoy what was in front of me.

That’s just my opinion, but it’s all I’ve got.

Your son must get all the reps in a game situation that he can possibly handle. That way when he gets to a showcase it's no big deal when a hundred scouts are running around and he will relax and perform.

LHPMom:

I would look at option #2 to get the most playing time and supplement with private lessons for additional coaching. Agree with the other posters that it is hard to learn while on the bench. Another option is to play on more than one team, but that's harder to do with a pitcher given pitch counts. Some high schools will bar their kids from pitching anywhere else in-season.

Private lessons and additional coaching do not equate with playing time and "reps"

TRhit

Agree 100%. Think option 2 gives the opportunity for most playing time.

It is just hindsight at this point. But if I'd found this board a year ago, we might have made a different decision than we did. It's hard watching your kid sit for the first time in his life...

LHPMom

Not to gloat but seeing this post makes me count my lucky stars. My son has been with the same summer team since he was 11 (he will be 15U this year). They have top notch coaching, are nationaly ranked by Perfect Game, small (12 KIDS)so playing time isn't an issue, parents get along well, coaches are as much friends as coaches (family in a way). His goal is for all the boys to play at least college ball. He is a mentor as much as a coach , character of the boys mean as much to him as skill level. We will attend 2 Perfect Game Showcases this year and probably more as they get older. The team is not some national program but one put together by a man who has a passion for the game and the work ethic and knowledge to make it happen.
I hope you are able to be as lucky as us with your search for a team, your son being comfortable and having fun are #1.

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
It is just hindsight at this point. But if I'd found this board a year ago, we might have made a different decision than we did. It's hard watching your kid sit for the first time in his life...

LHPMom

Yep, sorry about your situation. It only took one, the first one, game of sitting for my guy to know he wasn't going to be able to do it.

LHP Mom;

It is very difficult for me to understand the objectives and goals of the travel team coaches.

1. Did you pay advance deposits?
2. Did the coach inform you of his strategy for playing all the players on the roster?
3. A travel team is for the "development" of young players, not to win trophies.
4. Every player on a team has a "specific role". It is the coaches responsibility to inform a player before the season his expected role. The player may exceed the coaches expectations and this is a "blessing" for the player and the coach.

Bob Williams

Bob brings up some great points espically #3. I am a novice compared to Bob, but I do see many clubs that don't develop kids, they try to get kids that are already developed. To me when a team goes to a big tournament and brings kids in just to play in that tournament to try and win it--what about the kid who loses playing time that has spent time (and $) that is riding the bench, this type of club is just trying to make a name for itself so it can get kids to pay higher fees because of there name or ego of the coach who in my opinion is nothing more than a general manager not a coach. Finding a team that sticks together and practices together to me was important, and it has worked well. My son at 15 is fundamentaly sound, injury free (pitcher never an arm problem), respects the game, has a team attitude, confident in his abilities, is given coaching and practices to increase his skill level, goes to showcase events to show his skills, and most importantly---has FUN!

I'm not talking about a travel team; I'm talking about his powerhouse baseball private school, where he currently gets his share of time on the mound, but had to cede first base to a sophomore. Wouldn't be sitting at all if we'd stuck with public school.

LHPMom

LHPmom just a question. Why not just come out up front that you were talking about High School at the start of this. Then maybe the anwsers would have been a little differant. This happens all the time be it high school or travel ball. What your son has to do is look and see what it is going to take to get that starting role on first base and prove to the coach that he should be playing there. This is not the team that his dad is the coach of. I know alot of the privte school coachs in the area and they are going to play the kids were they can help them win.

LHPMOM

Is your son there on scholarship?

No, the school doesn't give out athletic scholarships.

I didn't say which case because I was also interested in people's thoughts about travel teams, too. As I've said earlier in this thread, we've already made our decision, are sticking with it, it's just hindsight at this point, blah blah blah, but I wanted to know about other people's decision-making process.

And the sophomore who plays first does have a dad on the coaching staff.

LHPMom

Sorry I was not talking about the high school team having a dad as a coach. I was makeing referance to summer teams that are coached by kids dads and there kids will play over other kids that may be better. Daddy Ball

'Baseball Powerhouse Private'...

You say that in hindsight you would have made a different decision. But, if he's on varsity as a freshman at a powerhouse HS, I think you've made the right decision. He might be playing more today in a lesser program but, looking ahead, how will you feel when he's a senior and those around him aren't playing at his level?

Is he a pitcher or a position player? Sounds like if pitching is it, then it probably don't matter whether he pitches at a public or private. If he's a position player and is stuck behind a sophomore until graduation, then that means he probably don't get his position until senior year unless another private school recruit comes in who will win that spot. It's easier in the public schools since they can't recruit like the privates and face possible eligibility issues if they transfer.

The question in the origional post sounded like a high school decision because travel, you look for the program that fits best and one that plays everybody and gives their players exposure. Otherwise, what's the point of plunking down all that loot to play on a select team as a bench jockey? Picking between a private or a public high school is different. There's more important issues than just baseball to weigh in such as quality of education and the $$$$ for tuition.

LHPMom2012
We had the same decision to make. He played BB at a small private school with much playing time on varsity team. He loved that team and believed they would go all the way in 2009. He played travel ball with a team from public school with an outstanding record and loved that team too. He left private school and went to public solely because of the respect the school and community gave to the team. We were in shock that he would rather sit the bench than get plenty of playing time where he was at and with a team he loved. While we were worried sick, it seemed to have worked. During the school year he was able to have conditioning and training until baseball started. He is ineligible to play this year, but due to the time off he has gained tremendous velocity and even more love the game. He has played so much baseball this break may be a blessing. He has seen an enormous amount of college and pro scouts at each game and has had the opportunity to meet and practice with guys in college and higher level in the off season. This can drive a player. It worked out that if he could have played this year as a freshman he would have been in the varsity rotation, which means this summer and next year if he stays healthy he will get playing time. I am glad that he had the confidence to do what I could not imagine him doing. He stepped out the box and by the grace of God it has worked out. Sometimes kids who get involved with a program and talent bigger than they imagined will shock you and rise to the occassion. He is proud everytime is associated with that baseball team due to the support the program receives from its school and community helping to make better men out of these boys. Sometimes you have to roll the dice!