Big Pitch Count News--NFHS Requires States to Adopt Rules

Stats4Gnats posted:

luv baseball,

 

The problem isn’t how the data get stored. Although there’s a heck of a lot more to it than whipping out an Xcel SS and spending a few minutes formatting it, it certainly isn’t brain surgery, and in fact is in place for the most part and free as well. The problem is in how the information gets into whatever media is used, how to make sure it’s as valid as possible.

 

I agree that the chances for screwing things up are on the high side, but a lot of that is because NFHS refuses to step up and lay down the guidelines. That will allow all the different assns. to have different guidelines and processes, and that’s what will muddle everything up.

Rarely does the NFHS lay down guidelines. That's almost always left up to each individual state. There are s lot of factors in play as to why this makes sense.

Why doesn't the NFHS mandate concussion training? Why not mandate who needs a physical? Or who is qualified to coach a high school sport? All of that comes from the state associations, not the NFHS. 

cabbagedad posted:

Y'all bein' set up again...

Did I mention? ...

Just found the new national rules. 

1. All catchers must wear a body camera that live streams to a central committee in the NFHS HQ, for recording counts into a worldwide database. 

2. Pitch counts will be certified by each coach, and all umpires and approved by HQ after each inning, and signed by two witnesses and a notary public.

3. The Principal/AD and HC of the school is to be immediately terminated if any pitch count violations occur during a given inning.  Each of them will be subject to lawsuits by the injured pitcher, and may be subject to felony arrest and conviction.

4. Any pitchers that have been violated will immediately be airlifted to the nearest hospital and given therapy and psychological counseling, and a snowflake certificate.

SultanofSwat posted:

Just found the new national rules. 

1. All catchers must wear a body camera that live streams to a central committee in the NFHS HQ, for recording counts into a worldwide database. 

2. Pitch counts will be certified by each coach, and all umpires and approved by HQ after each inning, and signed by two witnesses and a notary public.

3. The Principal/AD and HC of the school is to be immediately terminated if any pitch count violations occur during a given inning.  Each of them will be subject to lawsuits by the injured pitcher, and may be subject to felony arrest and conviction.

4. Any pitchers that have been violated will immediately be airlifted to the nearest hospital and given therapy and psychological counseling, and a snowflake certificate.

Does that catcher body cam also record whether the umpire called it a ball or a strike? And surely it'd be easier to put that body camera onto the umpire, right? Then you only need one camera in a game instead of two... haha 

Bulldog 19 posted:

Rarely does the NFHS lay down guidelines. That's almost always left up to each individual state. There are s lot of factors in play as to why this makes sense.

Why doesn't the NFHS mandate concussion training? Why not mandate who needs a physical? Or who is qualified to coach a high school sport? All of that comes from the state associations, not the NFHS. 

True, they don’t lay down national guidelines. But doesn’t it seem rather silly to assume a player in Fl doesn’t need 4 days of rest for throwing 100 pitches but a player in Ca would? The very least they should say is for the states to follow the guidelines of the authority governing all amateur baseball in the country which is USA Baseball who use Pitch Smart. Then at least there wouldn’t be a mish mosh of different rules all over the place.

The summer college leagues use Pitch Smart guidelines, and a common scorekeeping system-Pointstreaks for many leagues. It counts the pitches for all to see...on line...and almost every team does their own tracking in the dugout of both their pitchers and the opponents.  Not sure if high schools can afford Pointstreaks but if they'd discount it a bit, they could get a whole lot of customers.

hokieone posted:

The summer college leagues use Pitch Smart guidelines, and a common scorekeeping system-Pointstreaks for many leagues. It counts the pitches for all to see...on line...and almost every team does their own tracking in the dugout of both their pitchers and the opponents.  Not sure if high schools can afford Pointstreaks but if they'd discount it a bit, they could get a whole lot of customers.

Counting pitches is a very important part of protecting pitchers because it keeps them from throwing absurd numbers. But even though it’s not the only part, people glom onto it like that’s was all there was to it. The part forgotten is the amount of rest. Together they form the protection.

That being said, it's a whole lot easier to identify a pitcher who hasn't had enough rest if all the appearances have been put into some form that can be queried.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Bulldog 19 posted:

Rarely does the NFHS lay down guidelines. That's almost always left up to each individual state. There are s lot of factors in play as to why this makes sense.

Why doesn't the NFHS mandate concussion training? Why not mandate who needs a physical? Or who is qualified to coach a high school sport? All of that comes from the state associations, not the NFHS. 

 

True, they don’t lay down national guidelines. But doesn’t it seem rather silly to assume a player in Fl doesn’t need 4 days of rest for throwing 100 pitches but a player in Ca would? The very least they should say is for the states to follow the guidelines of the authority governing all amateur baseball in the country which is USA Baseball who use Pitch Smart. Then at least there wouldn’t be a mish mosh of different rules all over the place.

I'm not disagreeing with you. And the same can be said for every example I provided as well. It just simply isn't the role that the NFHS has taken on and probably not likely to take on in large part. 

Bulldog 19 posted:

I'm not disagreeing with you. And the same can be said for every example I provided as well. It just simply isn't the role that the NFHS has taken on and probably not likely to take on in large part.

What I find so maddening is they wouldn’t be taking on any role what-so-ever if they just agreed with the higher authority. Now that USA Baseball endorses Pitch Smart, there’s really no reason any amateur organization doesn’t use it. Other than pure ignorance or the refusal to fight it, why would any organization not take the recommendation of MLB?

Go44dad posted:

^^^ OK, so...pitch counts, yes or no?  what say you?

Sorry I don't check in on here very often anymore.  I'm all about pitch counts and think it's much more beneficial than anything you would do with innings.  But like I said I find it hard to believe there will ever be a comprehensive way of doing this to adequately protect everyone.  I'm a big believer in protecting kids arms even at the expense of winning games and I believe most coaches are the same way (maybe I'm wrong) but there are those who make the rest of us look bad.

When I was head coach in Ky and we had the innings rule I had no idea what the rule was because we counted pitches, knew each kid was able to do and they talked to us about how they felt on a game day.  Never had any problems that I could see.  Haven't heard of anybody having arm issues after HS either.  Maybe we got lucky or maybe we were doing it right.  I doubt we ever broke the inning rule for pitchers but maybe we did.  

Whenever / wherever I become a head coach again I'm going to follow the same formula and I don't care what the rule says unless it's better than what we do.  I don't see any state coming up with any process with any teeth in it and as long as I'm not putting guys in jeopardy or gaining some kind of advantage over other teams nobody is going to say a word to me.

coach2709,

I completely agree about the superiority of PCs Vs IPs and agree that there will never be a comprehensive way of doing this to adequately protect everyone. However, while I don’t think anyone actually believes it’s possible to protect “everyone” because there’s too many possibilities, I do believe the move to PCs is definitely going to protect more players, and realistically that’s all that can be done.

I also agree that the vast majority of coaches believe as you do and that it’s a very small minority of them causing the majority of problems. The trouble is, the numbers we’re talking about are so large, a small percentage is still a very big number. Let’s say only 1% of all HS coaches were causing most of the problems. With more than 30,000 HS teams playing more than 600,000 games and using more than 2 million pitching appearances, that’s still more than 24,000 appearances that will be directly under that 1% of coaches. Should those coaches be allowed to continue to use their own guidelines the way you want to?

The reason there are rules/laws isn’t to try to control those that aren’t causing problems, it’s to try to control the small minority that do. And while I also don't see any state coming up with any process with any teeth in it, I believe the change to PCs will make it easier to identify violators. Just the threat of exposure will hopefully stop a lot of the habitual violators, and once there’s a place where the pitching data is kept, there’ll be other kooks like myself willing to spend the time it takes to go through that data to expose those violators. It would just be a lot better if the states would do their own policing and enforcement.

Looks like the California rule is going to be 110 pitches for varsity (3 days mandatory rest over 76 pitches; 2 days rest for 51-75; one day rest for 30-50) and 90 pitches for JV and frosh: www.latimes.com/sports/highsch...-20160914-story.html

I was told PA would 100 per day and 200 per week. I believe 3 days rest for over 75. I don't know if that is confirmed or not. 

Who except D1 and D2 schools will count pitches?  I'd rather see a limit on innings pitched.  Only allow pitchers to go 6 innings a start or 12 innings a week.  This forces coaches to use pitchers other than their aces.  This will reduce stat padding of aces by encouraging coaches to send weaker pitchers against weaker competition. It give those guys some deserved reps/development and weaker teams a fair chance...maybe they can't hit your 90mph pitcher but they sure can light up your 65mph 2nd starter, and maybe their own 65mph "ace" can actually shut down your "powerhouse" team.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

Who except D1 and D2 schools will count pitches?  I'd rather see a limit on innings pitched.  Only allow pitchers to go 6 innings a start or 12 innings a week.  This forces coaches to use pitchers other than their aces.  This will reduce stat padding of aces by encouraging coaches to send weaker pitchers against weaker competition. It give those guys some deserved reps/development and weaker teams a fair chance...maybe they can't hit your 90mph pitcher but they sure can light up your 65mph 2nd starter, and maybe their own 65mph "ace" can actually shut down your "powerhouse" team.  

Well, as far as I know there’s no pitching limitations on college teams, but all HS teams who play under NFHS rules will.

For many years IPs were the limiting factor for any amateur ball that had limits. They’ve been shown to be better than nothing, but not much. People now understand that since a pitcher can literally throw 100 pitches without even pitching 1 inning, using innings is definitely not the best way to go.

I just dont see how they will moniter these pitch counts.  I can tell you the umps want no part of it.  I do think its probably easier to control in post season play where a tournament committee member is present at each game.

Laker27 posted:

I just dont see how they will moniter these pitch counts.  I can tell you the umps want no part of it.  I do think its probably easier to control in post season play where a tournament committee member is present at each game.

How have the innings been monitored? They haven’t been because there was nothing in place to do it anymore than there’s anything in place to monitor pitch counts.

 It doesn’t matter what the umps want or don’t want. If the governing body says the umps will play some part in it, you can bet they’ve already talked to the umpires’ assn and gotten general approval. If individual umps choose not to participate that will be ok. They just won’t be assigned games.

Here's a recently updated single chart of most U.S. states' newly implemented HS pitch limits and required days rest (as of late-December 2016) that some may find interesting:

http://baseballlmw.blogspot.co...t-unofficial-of.html

It is quite a variety of pitch maximums/gm, various pitch limit thresholds and associated days rest required ... as well as some states having specific grade/age level assigned limits too (i.e. Sub Varsity, JV, Middle School etc.).

A separate list (from the same blogger) of links to each of the individual state associations and their baseball pitch count rules is found here:  

http://baseballlmw.blogspot.co...-rules-for-2017.html

No doubt, it will be interesting to see how the record keeping, pitch count reporting and violation penalties will be implemented in the "real world".  The new rules in our state say coaches shall:  review team pitcher logs before games, confer between innings on pitchers' p/c (with home team scorebook ruled official...apparently in case of disputes!), and review/initial completed pitch log after game; must then post the team's game pitch counts to on-line scholastic league site within 24 hrs.  Failure to post score within 24 hrs -- one game (next gm) coach suspension.  Verified violation of pitch count/rest rule -- one game coach suspension AND involved pitcher(s) unable to pitch in next game.  No involvement with Plate Umpire it seems unless overall maximum p/c exceeded or ineligible P brought in.

At our HS, with Freshman, JV and Vars teams, a player or asst coach has kept track of gm data (including p/c) using scoring app GameChanger.  This was implemented in just the last few years, though only innings pitched per pitcher were required to be tracked by state rule.

In CA...

"Initial pitch-count rules were unveiled by CIF associate executive director Ron Nocetti to the Central Coast Section’s 15 league representatives prior to the CCS playoffs seeding meeting earlier this month. They call for no pitcher to throw more than 100 pitches in a day, though he will be allowed to complete the inning if the daily limit is reached during that inning. The proposal, which is in the process of being amended, calls for one day of rest for pitchers throwing 31-45 pitches in an outing, two days for 46-60 pitches, three days for 61-75 pitches and four days for 76 or more pitches." 

Pretty similar to how most MLB teams manage their pitchers.  But coaches are against this. That's probably why it's taking so long to get something done.  Lower divisions with thinner pitching will suffer the most.  I suspect our team is going to do better this year if our opponents decide not to waste their ace's start against us. Maybe we'll win a couple of games

hsbaseball101 posted:

In CA...

"Initial pitch-count rules were unveiled by CIF associate executive director Ron Nocetti to the Central Coast Section’s 15 league representatives prior to the CCS playoffs seeding meeting earlier this month. They call for no pitcher to throw more than 100 pitches in a day, though he will be allowed to complete the inning if the daily limit is reached during that inning. The proposal, which is in the process of being amended, calls for one day of rest for pitchers throwing 31-45 pitches in an outing, two days for 46-60 pitches, three days for 61-75 pitches and four days for 76 or more pitches." 

Pretty similar to how most MLB teams manage their pitchers.  But coaches are against this. That's probably why it's taking so long to get something done.  Lower divisions with thinner pitching will suffer the most.  I suspect our team is going to do better this year if our opponents decide not to waste their ace's start against us. Maybe we'll win a couple of games

2 starters and a closer.  We play two games a week.

Are schools required to report scores to the state association?  I'm pretty sure that is often required.  Are schools required to submit a roster prior to the beginning of the season?  I suspect that is required in many states.  If you have those two simple requirements, then when the coach is reporting his score, he simply has to add pitches thrown by player XYZ that he clicks on - date fills in automatically.  That extremely simply system could actually identify violations.  True, the state would have to maintain some type of simplistic database, but with today's technology I'm sure some kid on the math team could construct one after school.

hokieone posted:

The summer college leagues use Pitch Smart guidelines, and a common scorekeeping system-Pointstreaks for many leagues. It counts the pitches for all to see...on line...and almost every team does their own tracking in the dugout of both their pitchers and the opponents.  Not sure if high schools can afford Pointstreaks but if they'd discount it a bit, they could get a whole lot of customers.

I would think the summer leagues would be more careful with their college kids than some other organizations/leagues.  Summer collegiate leagues & teams depend on connections with college coaches to get them their kids.  If a team/coach becomes known for abusing pitchers and sending them back to their college with arm injuries in the fall, I'm thinking word would get around real quick and he'd have a hard time getting college coaches to send him quality pitchers.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Are schools required to report scores to the state association?  I'm pretty sure that is often required.  Are schools required to submit a roster prior to the beginning of the season?  I suspect that is required in many states.  If you have those two simple requirements, then when the coach is reporting his score, he simply has to add pitches thrown by player XYZ that he clicks on - date fills in automatically.  That extremely simply system could actually identify violations.  True, the state would have to maintain some type of simplistic database, but with today's technology I'm sure some kid on the math team could construct one after school.

In Colorado, schools are required to submit statistics and pitch counts on to MaxPreps within 24 hours. 

Guess it is a good idea in theory.... But here is my problem. I am at a small school and all of our pitchers and most of our players play basketball.  Their last basketball game will be on a Sat., and we will pass out equipment on Monday and play a district game on Tuesday. This is a much larger problem than needing to know that if a player throws 45 or 46 pitches whether he needs one or two days off.

d8 posted:

Guess it is a good idea in theory.... But here is my problem. I am at a small school and all of our pitchers and most of our players play basketball.  Their last basketball game will be on a Sat., and we will pass out equipment on Monday and play a district game on Tuesday. This is a much larger problem than needing to know that if a player throws 45 or 46 pitches whether he needs one or two days off.

Are your kids not throwing during basketball season?  There's no way a pitcher with any pitch count should be throwing in a game if he hasn't thrown at all over the winter.  I thought Ohio was bad about basketball and baseball running close together.  Two days is crazy

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Are schools required to report scores to the state association?  I'm pretty sure that is often required.  Are schools required to submit a roster prior to the beginning of the season?  I suspect that is required in many states.  If you have those two simple requirements, then when the coach is reporting his score, he simply has to add pitches thrown by player XYZ that he clicks on - date fills in automatically.  That extremely simply system could actually identify violations.  True, the state would have to maintain some type of simplistic database, but with today's technology I'm sure some kid on the math team could construct one after school.

I know of no state that requires scores or rosters be reported to the association.

You are correct that a very simple system could identify violations if there was some kind of database, but that’s the problem. There is no such database! The closest anything comes to it is MaxPreps, but even though it’s by far the biggest in the country, I doubt seriously that more than 25% of the teams use it and its mandatory for even fewer.

The good news is, whether the system in place is the most efficient or most worthless, just having the rule in place will eliminate most abuses.

Stats4Gnats posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Are schools required to report scores to the state association?  I'm pretty sure that is often required.  Are schools required to submit a roster prior to the beginning of the season?  I suspect that is required in many states.  If you have those two simple requirements, then when the coach is reporting his score, he simply has to add pitches thrown by player XYZ that he clicks on - date fills in automatically.  That extremely simply system could actually identify violations.  True, the state would have to maintain some type of simplistic database, but with today's technology I'm sure some kid on the math team could construct one after school.

 

I know of no state that requires scores or rosters be reported to the association.

 

You are correct that a very simple system could identify violations if there was some kind of database, but that’s the problem. There is no such database! The closest anything comes to it is MaxPreps, but even though it’s by far the biggest in the country, I doubt seriously that more than 25% of the teams use it and its mandatory for even fewer.

 

The good news is, whether the system in place is the most efficient or most worthless, just having the rule in place will eliminate most abuses.

In Colorado:

"It is the coaches’ responsibility to update season and playoff stats and records through MaxPreps (www.maxpreps.com). No hard copies of season results should be submitted to the CHSAA." 

and

"Each contest must be recorded with the opposing team, noting the names of each pitcher and how many pitches that pitcher threw in the game. This information must be recorded in MaxPreps, along with the result of the contest, within 24 hours of the game. "

When Colorado first implemented the pitch counts, there was no vehicle through which non-compliance would be punished. However, in the Spring before last season, they added this:

"PENALTY: Any school not entering the information within the mandated time frame will be placed on restriction from the playoffs." and Umpires will NOT mediate pitch counts. All concerns about pitch counts need to be addressed by the Athletic Director or CHSAA."

So, they still don't mandate any way to punish non-compliance. They only put in place a definite mechanism for punishing non-reporting. Though I saw no instances where the pitch count limits were exceeded last season (at least as reported), it would be interesting to see what CHSAA does if a team violates the rule, but reports it on time. I assume there will be an ad hoc penalty imposed.

roothog66 posted:

In Colorado:

"It is the coaches’ responsibility to update season and playoff stats and records through MaxPreps (www.maxpreps.com). No hard copies of season results should be submitted to the CHSAA." 

and

"Each contest must be recorded with the opposing team, noting the names of each pitcher and how many pitches that pitcher threw in the game. This information must be recorded in MaxPreps, along with the result of the contest, within 24 hours of the game. "

Our “section” has had the MaxPreps score posting for several years now, and the vast vast majority of teams post stats as well. In addition, Arbiter has posted scores for the last several seasons as well.

I got a kick out of seeing that little bit about not sending stuff to the state assn. After all, what would they do with it? J

Stats4Gnats posted:

roothog66 posted:

In Colorado:

"It is the coaches’ responsibility to update season and playoff stats and records through MaxPreps (www.maxpreps.com). No hard copies of season results should be submitted to the CHSAA." 

and

"Each contest must be recorded with the opposing team, noting the names of each pitcher and how many pitches that pitcher threw in the game. This information must be recorded in MaxPreps, along with the result of the contest, within 24 hours of the game. "

 

Our “section” has had the MaxPreps score posting for several years now, and the vast vast majority of teams post stats as well. In addition, Arbiter has posted scores for the last several seasons as well.

 

I got a kick out of seeing that little bit about not sending stuff to the state assn. After all, what would they do with it? J

In Colorado, playoff seedings are determined by an RPI formula, which they calculate straight from Maxpreps score input, so proper and timely input of scores is a huge priority. 

roothog66 posted:

In Colorado, playoff seedings are determined by an RPI formula, which they calculate straight from Maxpreps score input, so proper and timely input of scores is a huge priority. 

A lot of folks don’t understand just how much impact scores have. Besides being used the way you described, every ranking be it local or national is based on W/L record and scores. One reason scores in MaxPreps can be input by either team is to try to get as many scores as possible. The one drawback to that is, there’s no way to detect a wrong score or stop anyone from changing scores. Luckily the number of unscrupulous coaches who would purposely do that in order to favor their team is very small.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

d8 posted:

Guess it is a good idea in theory.... But here is my problem. I am at a small school and all of our pitchers and most of our players play basketball.  Their last basketball game will be on a Sat., and we will pass out equipment on Monday and play a district game on Tuesday. This is a much larger problem than needing to know that if a player throws 45 or 46 pitches whether he needs one or two days off.

Are your kids not throwing during basketball season?  There's no way a pitcher with any pitch count should be throwing in a game if he hasn't thrown at all over the winter.  I thought Ohio was bad about basketball and baseball running close together.  Two days is crazy

CIF-SS lists boys soccer ending on Feb 15.  Our best players are playing soccer.  Baseball's first game starts Feb 25, but we start tryouts the last 2 weeks of January and start practicing on Feb 1st.  Soccer playoffs are Feb 17-28.  What kind of schedule is that?  I feel there should be a week off between playoffs and the start of another season.  That would give you up to 3 weeks of tryouts and practice before your first game.  

Buckeye 2015 posted:

d8 posted:

Guess it is a good idea in theory.... But here is my problem. I am at a small school and all of our pitchers and most of our players play basketball.  Their last basketball game will be on a Sat., and we will pass out equipment on Monday and play a district game on Tuesday. This is a much larger problem than needing to know that if a player throws 45 or 46 pitches whether he needs one or two days off.

Are your kids not throwing during basketball season?  There's no way a pitcher with any pitch count should be throwing in a game if he hasn't thrown at all over the winter.  I thought Ohio was bad about basketball and baseball running close together.  Two days is crazy

They do not get to throw during basketball season. A few will sneak off and throw two or three days a week during the month of Feb.  First district game will be the first week of March.  I usually have 7-8 players that do not play basketball and it has worked out that there were a couple of pitchers in that group, but this year all the guys we are counting on to pitch are basketball kids.  

 Latest updated nationwide state-by-state HS pitch count limit chart... only Alaska, Hawaii, New Hampshire and D.C. rules are now yet to appear:

http://baseballlmw.blogspot.co...-state-hs-pitch.html

Very interesting that CT appears to be the ONLY state to NOT impose a specific maximum p/c limit # -- CT's HS pitchers exceeding 110 pitches in a day may continue to pitch that day (with NO p/c limit requiring removal from the mound) but are required to observe 5 subsequent days of rest from pitching (up from their 3 days of rest for 76-110 pitches).  Per their new rule "...there is NO maximum pitch count per day because we have faith in our coaches to protect and preserve the safety and welfare of the baseball athletes." 

Seems CT rule has found a way to follow new NFHS' vaguely written pitch count rule intent (if not spirit of rule) while opening door to bad apple coach pitcher abuse when it comes to observing an individual pitcher's daily pitch count maximum.  Shouldn't pitcher days of rest thresholds *combined with* an absolute specific pitch count daily maximum per pitcher BOTH be part of a state's new pitch count rule to ensure player safety?  Thoughts??

Blues&Baseball posted:

Seems CT rule has found a way to follow new NFHS' vaguely written pitch count rule intent (if not spirit of rule) while opening door to bad apple coach pitcher abuse when it comes to observing an individual pitcher's daily pitch count maximum.  

Seems like the Ct officials don’t understand the reason this new rule has been put into place is because those same coaches they’ve placed all their faith in, have proven over and over that they will succumb to human failures just like the rest of us.

Shouldn't pitcher days of rest thresholds *combined with* an absolute specific pitch count daily maximum per pitcher BOTH be part of a state's new pitch count rule to ensure player safety?  Thoughts??

It would be a whole lot easier if the rule everywhere began with a pitcher only being allowed to pitch in a game once every seven days and then only be allowed to throw 100 pitches. Unfortunately, this isn’t La-La Land.

There are several reasons pitchers get put in so much jeopardy. The main one is that even though every player on the roster is eligible to pitch and capable, not all possess that ability to a degree high enough to instill in the coach the confidence to put them on the mound. Another reason is, not enough coaches possess the ability to teach pitching to players who don’t already possess pitching skills to a fairly high degree.

But perhaps the reason so many pitchers get overused/abused is that far too many coaches believe pitchers who aren’t among the best around don’t give the team a good chance to win. Even though every day there are pitchers who are average at best get lots of outs and win lots of games, most coaches will shove out the best pitcher they have as often as possible.

Blues&Baseball posted:

Seems CT rule has found a way to follow new NFHS' vaguely written pitch count rule intent (if not spirit of rule) while opening door to bad apple coach pitcher abuse when it comes to observing an individual pitcher's daily pitch count maximum.  Shouldn't pitcher days of rest thresholds *combined with* an absolute specific pitch count daily maximum per pitcher BOTH be part of a state's new pitch count rule to ensure player safety?  Thoughts??

I think CT dropped the ball, but at least pitch counts are being written down and tracked.  That's a big start.  Didn't see their mechanism for storing them.  

The pitching rules are crap.  We ask kids to do what MLB players aren't.  I'd like to see some rules with teeth, not eyewash.

redbird5 posted:

The pitching rules are crap.  We ask kids to do what MLB players aren't.  I'd like to see some rules with teeth, not eyewash.

Are the current rules for pitching limitations perfect? HELL NO! In fact, while I wouldn’t call them “crap” I would agree that they leave a lot to be desired. So what’s the answer? Should we go back to the same limitation rules we had 50 years ago, which were none? Or should we impose rules so strict and with such repercussions for breaking them that coaches are being fired for even the most minute failure, and with such a policing and enforcement system that it costs ten times what it does now to be involved in a baseball program? And therein lays the conundrum. How much oversight is enough and how much is too much?

It’s impossible to come up with rules that are all encompassing for everyone because everyone has a different view of what’s necessary and of course because of the pure logistics of the problem. In HS alone there are some 30,000+ teams in 50 states with close to a half-million players alone, not counting the coaches, officials, and administrators. That’s a massive bureaucracy to try to change!

Not even 20 years ago in this forum and others like it, the number of people advocating any kind of pitching limitations were damn few and far between. Not even 10 years ago the percentage of people advocating pitch counts were in the minority spurring great debates when Little League just tested them, and even greater debates when they imposed them. And here we are now with MLB endorsing Pitch Smart and driving many of the old dinosaurs into apoplexy, to the point where the evidence has become so overwhelming, NFHS took the great leap to make them the law of the HS-land, even if they allowed there to be so much difference from state to state.

My belief is there’s gonna continue to be tweaking at the HS level for the next several years, and that’s OK because there’s a learning curve just like there was when LLI did it 10 years ago. For those that don’t remember, there were plenty who said imposing pitch counts would be the demise of LLI as an organization, but today it’s nothing more than another rule. There’s gonna be similar things being said about HS baseball, but 10 years from now it’ll be forgotten because everyone will be used to them and the game will have changed to accommodate pitch counts and rest.

So have patience. The game will continue, even with this imperfect new restriction.

http://articles.latimes.com/19...249_1_school-pitcher

LL pitchers were used the same way.  It took 27 years for them to make up new rules.  They're headed in the right direction, but these rules should've been implemented 10 years ago so that today stricter rules could be drafted.