Biggest Change from HS to College as a Pitcher

something else pitchers don't realize is the difference that the climate can make.  i grew up in hawaii where it was so warm and humid that i was always three pitches away from being ready to go.  Went to school in Oregon where i don't think i was ever truly "warm"

I’m with PitchingFan. Been there, done that when I played. When I saw the title the first thing I thought, “Everyone  can pound the ball. There isn’t any, “Here it comes. You don’t have a chance.” If command was off that day in high school it didn’t matter against half the lineup.

Add in relieving was hard versus in high school, “I get the ball Friday. I’m going seven.”

Agree with all of the above. Getting into a routine as a reliever is a big adjustment. Good programs will post a pitching plan on game days to indicate who is scheduled for 1st, 2nd, 3rd out of the pen. Doesn’t always hold to form but it puts guys on notice to be prepared to pitch that day. Then it’s up to each individual to do whatever he needs to do to be ready before his name is called. Then it may or may not happen. And you do it again the next time. Such is the life of a reliever.

It depends on the level you play.  There are D3 teams and low level JUCO teams that are shockingly bad, a good high school team from a Baseball hotbed could run rule them.  It’s all relative.

Getting used to being a reliever vs being a starter is a big adjustment no matter what the level of play.

Lesson 1 (of many):   You are not routinely blowing fastballs for a strike by a D1 college hitter.   

Another difference is from LL through high school I played every inning on the mound or in the field unless the score was lopsided. It was hard to sit still in the dugout or bullpen. I learned how to juggle and how to toss bats out a few feet and have them bounce back to me.

I had been recruited as an outfielder. I wasn’t playing a lot freshman year. I stepped forward to, “Is there a damn lefty who can come out of the pen throwing strikes?”

I thought I screwed up having a good year out of the pen. Not playing all the time drove me nuts. As it was freshman year I was sitting more than playing as an outfielder. Fortunately a good recruiting year for the pitching staff got me back to competing for an outfield position.

The difference is survival as a  "thrower" in HS and as a "pitcher" in College.

A key to survival is the type of pitch thrown on the 3-1 count.

BOB

@Consultant posted:

The difference is survival as a  "thrower" in HS and as a "pitcher" in College.

A key to survival is the type of pitch thrown on the 3-1 count.

BOB

as usual Bob nails it here. How do you get out of a hitter's count? In HS you pound an above-average fastball and get misses or weak contact. In college you have to locate or throw secondary pitches for strikes.

The switch from starter to reliever is huge as has been mentioned. You would be really surprised how many guys come out cold or at the very least - not fully warm. You can go from "Get loose you're starting the next inning" to "If he walks this guy you're in" in a matter of two pitches.

The other is mistakes. Mistakes went for a single or double in HS. In college - they end up on twitter, or even worse sportscenter, as the beginning of a 480ft HR with a bunch of people commenting what a trash pitch that was. And they're usually right.

That being said - I still think the transition for a pitcher is much easier for a pitcher than it is a hitter.

Also all it takes is two bad outings or a meltdown in a key spot and you may not find yourself in a meaningful game for weeks at a time - until someone else melts down.

I remember my son playing on the incoming HS freshman team, waiting to play a scrimmage while the varsity team was finishing their practice. The game was so fast, I thought there’s no way my kid gets to that level. Then your kid gets there, and the game slows down and seems normal.

HS to juco was the same, the game sped up again and everyone who played and some who didn’t were their HS’s top talent, and again the freshman adjusted (or they left) and the game slows down.

Juco to P5 D1, the game didn’t speed up much, but everyone on the field was really good! Everybody is phenomenal at something, or they’re not on the team and especially the field. The ones there for hitting, don’t miss mistakes – the defenders are elite, and make all the plays they should and many they shouldn’t, and the pitchers have big league velo, nasty stuff or know how to get outs – possibly all three.

When the kid entered pro ball in short season A ball, it really wasn’t much different than D1. Seemed like junior and senior D1 all-star league with some younger Latin players mixed in. The blues get better, and the strike zone gets smaller and more consistent (this is incrementally true with each subsequent pro level).  

At this point I’m wondering why all the pro levels? Development, rookie, short season A (which is gone I believe) A, A+, AA, AAA, MLB – is there that much difference? The difference from short season to A+ was huge, you just don’t see it as a spectator because they’re all at that new higher level. It’s visible when new guy gets there and must figure out how to compete – or hang up his cleats.   

The kid got to AA, was invited to his first MLB string training, I flew to Florida, and I watched him give up 4 dingers in two innings and that was it for any game time. I’m glad I was there to support him – but not much fun.

Every step up in baseball is adjustment (youth to HS, HS to college, college to pro and pro level to pro level), it’s about leveraging some ratio of physical gifts, work ethic and mental strength to compete at that next level.

@Consultant posted:

The difference is survival as a  "thrower" in HS and as a "pitcher" in College.

A key to survival is the type of pitch thrown on the 3-1 count.

BOB

I feel like a key to survival is not getting into 3-1 counts.

Very interesting discussion. He started as a reliever as a FR/SO in HS so had that experience. But was never given time to warm up since he would come from SS to throw. The starter for 2 years. But in HS coaches called all the pitches and then never let him use anything but FB. Sad because that is his 3rd pitch.

In college he is getting a big change because he is back to bullpen but given way too much time to warmup. Last game he must have thrown 100 in warm up waiting to get in.

Then he has to get used to catcher calling throws as well as now the FB is actually his 3rd pitch.

Seems to me getting used to it but I would be interested in some old pitchers chiming in on how to not throw 100 in bullpen and still be ready.

Other thing I have noticed is that some highly recruited pitchers with velo but little movement are getting shelled. D1 guys can hit.

@old_school posted:

I feel like a key to survival is not getting into 3-1 counts.

Thank you Captain Obvious.  But every pitcher gets behind in the count from time to time. Even the very best ones. And Bob is 100% on point. To be a successful pitcher at the college level you have to be able to throw an off speed pitch for a strike in a FB count. Unless you throw 100 - and if you do you won’t be in college very long.

@Good Knight posted:

In college he is getting a big change because he is back to bullpen but given way too much time to warmup. Last game he must have thrown 100 in warm up waiting to get in.

Then he has to get used to catcher calling throws as well as now the FB is actually his 3rd pitch.

100 pitches waiting to go in, if he does need to go in, is unacceptable and a poor refection on whoever is in charge (usually pcoach) as well as working with the bullpen catcher.

Managing the teams bullpen is more than just telling a guy to go warm up. 

JMO

TPM is right but each pitcher also needs to regulate his own warmup routine. He needs to know how many pitches and how much time he needs to get ready. He may not always get the time he wants but he should know. He should also know when is enough w/o being told. Coaches can get caught up in lots of things during a game and even though a coach should always be in the bullpen it isn’t always the case. Part of the maturation process of every pitcher is them learning to be in charge of their own career - which includes knowing how to train, how to warmup, etc. This would include knowing when to shut it down in the bullpen if you haven’t entered the game.

I have also been tracking % of hits that are singles for a number of pitchers. Tracking 6 pitchers and it ranges from 91% to 46%.

Am I looking at the wrong think? is is it mainly situational?

Good Knight, are you saying that the catcher actually calls the pitches rather than the coach?  I've watched due to conversations on here and have not found an SEC catcher who calls pitches.  They are always called by the PC through some mechanism.  Every SEC team has some coach in the bullpen telling guys where they are in the process.  Ours tells son to get ready quickly, slow down, just toss or sit down or shut it down.

Yes I think they do.

#1 - Adjusting to a real strike zone.  It gets tighter as you move up.

#2. - Developing a + off speed pitch.  To piggy back on this, you better learn a slider in college and if you are in high school and want to get recruited, you better start learning one.  It is the pitch of choice in the pros and college and everyone is looking for guys who have a good one.

#3 - It's been mentioned but I will add to it, adjusting to the bullpen and accepting whatever role you are able to get.  The bullpen is becoming more and more important in baseball.  It has trickled down from the pros to the college game.  Some colleges have bullpen arms that throw more innings than starters.  Some pitchers have it in their mind they are a starter and can't get past that.  Some pitchers accept their role and once in the bullpen you will see guys that actually prefer it.  Kevin Kopps threw the most innings for Arkansas last year.  He said he preferred the bullpen because he liked all of the chaos.  Starters get to think about their next outing for 6 days.  Bullpen guys get a 5-10 minute warning before their next outing.     

#4 -  You control your own career.  Expect there to be systems in place for group development, but don't expect a lot of one on one.  You will learn more from your teammates and your own research than you will from your coaches.  That is not a knock on coaches.  You have three guys running a 35-40 man roster.  They have to run the team, recruit, put out fires, be the weatherman.  You name it.  They don't have time to spend a lot of 1-1 with each player.  You will get tips, you will get some coaching, but be prepared to take control of your own career and be open to learning. 

@PitchingFan posted:

Good Knight, are you saying that the catcher actually calls the pitches rather than the coach?  I've watched due to conversations on here and have not found an SEC catcher who calls pitches.  They are always called by the PC through some mechanism.  Every SEC team has some coach in the bullpen telling guys where they are in the process.  Ours tells son to get ready quickly, slow down, just toss or sit down or shut it down.

Opitz called almost every pitch for two years at Arkansas.  I do not think they are allowing the current catcher to call pitches this year though. 

I wonder what they were saying over the walkie talkie because they were talking on it almost every pitch last year when they played us.  My son and I both commented on it because he had heard they were letting him call pitches but we both noticed they were consistently talking to him.

@adbono posted:

TPM is right but each pitcher also needs to regulate his own warmup routine. He needs to know how many pitches and how much time he needs to get ready. He may not always get the time he wants but he should know. He should also know when is enough w/o being told. Coaches can get caught up in lots of things during a game and even though a coach should always be in the bullpen it isn’t always the case. Part of the maturation process of every pitcher is them learning to be in charge of their own career - which includes knowing how to train, how to warmup, etc. This would include knowing when to shut it down in the bullpen if you haven’t entered the game.

This is spot on however, college freshman year is difficult as is and they need direction to learn their routine. 

JMO

@PitchingFan posted:

Good Knight, are you saying that the catcher actually calls the pitches rather than the coach?  I've watched due to conversations on here and have not found an SEC catcher who calls pitches.  They are always called by the PC through some mechanism.  Every SEC team has some coach in the bullpen telling guys where they are in the process.  Ours tells son to get ready quickly, slow down, just toss or sit down or shut it down.

Could be that GK is watching to see of he looks over for the sign. If he doesn't he may be assuming that the catcher is calling which they don't usually do this time of year. UF uses ear piece which is available to every D1 program.

@d-mac,

I don't agree with number 4. Coaches, all divisions spend fall season preparing their players to go into battle. That includes instruction, 1 on 1, adjustments etc. If that's not happening it tells you a lot about the coaching staff. This is especially true for freshman. You can't just rely on your offense to win.

JMO

Agreed TPM.  With all of the technology today including the watches at Vanderbilt it would look like the dug out is not calling anything and even the coaches at third are not calling anything when they are actually able to communicate a lot.  

I find it very hard to believe that any top 100 D1 program is allowing a C to call pitches. Especially at a P5 school. Coaches jobs depend on winning games - and games are won or lost on the mound more than any other position. But the catcher position would be next in line. There is a ton of importance around pitch sequences and pitch calling. No way that is going to be turned over to a 20 -23 year old player.

@PitchingFan posted:

Agreed TPM.  With all of the technology today including the watches at Vanderbilt it would look like the dug out is not calling anything and even the coaches at third are not calling anything when they are actually able to communicate a lot.  

Not only that but both pitchers and catchers are taking notes out of their pockets. I have no clue why but maybe some info on the hitter they can't give over earpiece.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/...waggles-what-huh-mlb

"True Story"

Is the College pitcher allowed to "shake off" the sign? The pitcher knows what is "working" in the game today. The hitter is "telling" what he can or cannot hit.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/...waggles-what-huh-mlb

"True Story"

Is the College pitcher allowed to "shake off" the sign? The pitcher knows what is "working" in the game today. The hitter is "telling" what he can or cannot hit.

Bob

100% correct, Bob. When I played I was a guy that liked to shake off pitches. Sometimes I did it for effect and sometimes I wanted to throw a different pitch. Our starting C didn’t like that so the backup C caught when I pitched b/c he didn’t care. Our starting C didn’t know how to call my game. He didn’t understand how I set up hitters. He only knew one way to call a game and that worked fine for our top 2 guys who went on to have very respectable big league careers. But it didn’t work for most of the rest of us as we didn’t have the same amount of talent. I recall a game during my senior year when I didn’t have my best stuff and I was trying anything to get outs. A really good hitter was at the plate and I shook off every sign to get back to the original pitch that was called. Sometime during that process I heard a loud comment from the opposing teams dugout - “what the hell are you doing? You don’t have that many pitches!”

@adbono posted:

Thank you Captain Obvious.  But every pitcher gets behind in the count from time to time. Even the very best ones. And Bob is 100% on point. To be a successful pitcher at the college level you have to be able to throw an off speed pitch for a strike in a FB count. Unless you throw 100 - and if you do you won’t be in college very long.

first nothing is 100%, my point is completely accurate about staying away from 3-1 counts being more critical then the pitch throw on 3-1.

Are suggesting that in college baseball any level on a 3-1 count there are more off speed pitches thrown then fastballs (we could probably include MLB in this conversation as well)? I know you aren't attempting to say that because it would just be silly and you are serious baseball coach and wouldn't try to sell that.

Is there any coach in the world who would advise a hitter sit curve ball and take fastballs as normal course of action in a 3-1 count?

If the point is you need to be able to throw a 3-1 strike that isn't a meatball I agree, outside of that i have no idea what you find so offensive.

Another change is coming to terms with being a PO in the first place.

A lot of successful college pitchers were also successful HS hitters.

  I was stating what is required by a college pitcher in order to be successful. He must be able to throw an off speed pitch for a strike in a FB count. I didn’t say an off speed pitch should be thrown in a FB count EVERY TIME. I said it must be an option.  Bob said the same thing in a different way.
   Whereas you said, “stay out of 3-1 counts.” Which is impossible. You might as well have said, “just don’t let any runners on base.”
  I don’t find anything offensive about your comment but it’s advice that’s unachievable no matter how much you train. So it’s not a lot of help to anyone.

@PitchingFan posted:

Someone asked me this weekend what was the biggest change from HS to College for my son.  There were the usual game is faster, batters are bigger, for him specifically it was the jump from HS to SEC which is huge.  Thank goodness for fall ball and for him 2020 was a wash for SEC play.  In HS, you had maybe 1 or 2 guys in a lineup to worry about.  UT right now has 12 guys who have hit HR's and 10 have multiple HR's in first 11 games.  13 guys batting over .300.  But I think the biggest for him and I'm wondering if this is the case for many.  The fact that he had never not started but 1 game in his four year varsity career.  He had no experience coming into a game from the bullpen.  He had always started except 1 time.  The reality of coming from the bullpen and having to get ready during a game and knowing you could go 1 pitch, 1 batter, 1 inning or 5 innings was a huge change.  He always knew he was going to start and had plenty of time to warm-up.  His first outing in college he literally threw 5 pitches in the bullpen before he was brought to the mound.  He said it was almost overwhelming to not know when he would pitch or if and to sometimes have to get ready so quickly or vice-versa go to the bullpen and warm-up for 4 innings and not get in.

My oldest (a 2015 HS) had the same issue.  Starter every game in HS sophomore year-graduation.  Knew that Friday night and then game 1 of playoffs was always his.  Worked from Saturday-Friday to get mentally ready.  Got to college and started 8th game of freshman season (5IP 2 Runs vs. TCU), we all thought "here we go".  Never started again.  He tried to figure out how to be a BP guy, but said it was hard.  Up / down / up / down.  3 days in a row, 2 weeks off depending on need.  mentally was the hard part he said.

Always wonder if he would have happened had gotten the chance to start again....................

Middle son was Saturday starter freshman and sophomore year and then the first of his junior year but they kept losing games when they handed it to bullpen.  So they moved him to bullpen guy.  He had good success but his worst day was the Friday guy got in trouble in the first inning and gave up a few.  They sent son to bullpen and he got warm then the starter got a double play and got out of it.  Struggled next two innings and son stayed warm.  Finally in the fourth the starter gave up a run and had bases loaded with 2 outs.  Son came in and got the batter to pop up on first pitch.  He went to the dugout excited and coach said great job.  You're done.  4 innings of warming up for 1 pitch.  To say he was mad was an understatement.

Van Horn is on record that Opitz and James McCann called pitches at Arkansas. There is a recent podcast where he went into detail all of the ways teams tried to hit Kopps. Move up in the box, crowd plate, take 1st pitch, swing 1st pitch etc and all of the ways Opitz combatted that.

Pitchers have different mentalities. Some make better starters some make better relievers, some are better set up guys, but it all depends on their "stuff".  I don't agree with giving a guy only one chance as a starter or leaving a young pitcher in the BP for 100 pitches.

I came into the discussion because sometimes it just boggles my mind what goes on in college baseball.

This has turned into a good topic with a lot of input.

Parents and future players do your homework.

Because it's not going to get easier.

@TPM posted:

Could be that GK is watching to see of he looks over for the sign. If he doesn't he may be assuming that the catcher is calling which they don't usually do this time of year. UF uses ear piece which is available to every D1 program.

@d-mac,

I don't agree with number 4. Coaches, all divisions spend fall season preparing their players to go into battle. That includes instruction, 1 on 1, adjustments etc. If that's not happening it tells you a lot about the coaching staff. This is especially true for freshman. You can't just rely on your offense to win.

JMO

Some use the Fall as tryouts.  Players get on campus and scrimmages start the first few weeks. It’s sink or swim.  Some develop and have a later Fall season.  Either way coaches are very limited in regards to how much time they get with players.  Strength coaches get the most face time with players in the Fall at D1’s.

Well I could be wrong. It will not be the first time... or the last time I was full of it.

But he tells me the catcher calls the pitchs.

@Good Knight posted:

Well I could be wrong. It will not be the first time... or the last time I was full of it.

But he tells me the catcher calls the pitchs.

The catcher does call the signs, given by the HC or PC.

Edit...The coach either shows the sign to the catcher who gives the sign to the pitcher OR they are giving verbal verbage in the ear and the catcher gives the sign.

Advice to a newbie, don't throw your own pitch!!!!!!

Ask.