Summing up this thread is people disagreeing about something they agree about.....
Also @Dominik85, I got to watch Jackson play at the Shorebirds a couple months ago. Friend of mine has season tickets at ground level, and 180lbs is generous to say the least. It was refreshing to see a kid look like a kid.
@NJ2025Dad, my comments are not solely directed at you. But if the shoe fits….. My perspective is a little different than a lot of HSBBW members and I occasionally say things that are contrary to popular opinion. And that’s why I say them. In hopes that someone hears it. My baseball journey with my sons is over but I’m still very involved in the game. I attend showcase events regularly looking for players to recruit. When I’m there I always network with coaches. And I’m telling you what we see way too much of. Which is kids and parents that have emphasized metrics over learning how to play the game. Then they wonder why they aren’t being recruited. From the perspective of the schools you want recruiting you this is a real issue. Especially with position players. Not as much with pitchers. When the RC of a school says, “we would recruit you if your 60 time was under 7.0”, he is likely not telling the truth. He is passing on you by using a number you can’t argue with. Metrics have always been part of baseball. The showcase model today is exactly the same as pro tryouts were in the 70’s. So metrics are important - to a point. But they do not guarantee in game performance. And today’s players are more likely than ever before to post good numbers and not be very good in games. So for the majority of players that are trying to get noticed, here is the message. If you want to stand out be a really good player in games. Hustle, run hard, take the extra base, be a leader, run the bases well, know where to throw the ball, hit your cutoff man, understand situational hitting, etc. Play good fundamental baseball and play hard. If you do this at the HS level you will stand out.
This is from a longtime MLB scout :
@adbono posted:@NJ2025Dad, my comments are not solely directed at you. But if the shoe fits….. My perspective is a little different than a lot of HSBBW members and I occasionally say things that are contrary to popular opinion. And that’s why I say them. In hopes that someone hears it. My baseball journey with my sons is over but I’m still very involved in the game. I attend showcase events regularly looking for players to recruit. When I’m there I always network with coaches. And I’m telling you what we see way too much of. Which is kids and parents that have emphasized metrics over learning how to play the game. Then they wonder why they aren’t being recruited. From the perspective of the schools you want recruiting you this is a real issue. Especially with position players. Not as much with pitchers. When the RC of a school says, “we would recruit you if your 60 time was under 7.0”, he is likely not telling the truth. He is passing on you by using a number you can’t argue with. Metrics have always been part of baseball. The showcase model today is exactly the same as pro tryouts were in the 70’s. So metrics are important - to a point. But they do not guarantee in game performance. And today’s players are more likely than ever before to post good numbers and not be very good in games. So for the majority of players that are trying to get noticed, here is the message. If you want to stand out be a really good player in games. Hustle, run hard, take the extra base, be a leader, run the bases well, know where to throw the ball, hit your cutoff man, understand situational hitting, etc. Play good fundamental baseball and play hard. If you do this at the HS level you will stand out.
"If you want to stand out be a really good player in games. Hustle, run hard, take the extra base, be a leader, run the bases well, know where to throw the ball, hit your cutoff man, understand situational hitting, etc. Play good fundamental baseball and play hard. If you do this at the HS level you will stand out."
That general message is a great one. It's certainly one that I believe in.
I just want to add one more thought to this thread, so that I clarify what this discussion started as. I didn't intend my OP to be a debate of what a kid should be focused on in trying to be a better baseball player. Not sure if it sounded that way, but it wasn't my intent. My OP was simply discussing the correlation of body weight to exit velocity. Understanding that correlation can be used for a number of purposes.
As I've mentioned before, I think that metrics, if used in the right way, can be a valuable training tool. One of the purposes of understanding the body weight to exit velocity correlation could be to simply reassure a kid that his exit velocity is just where it's supposed to be. Like it or not, most kids who are serious about baseball see their exit velocities at least occasionally, and they compare it to their peers.
I get your point that you don't want kids to be preoccupied with their exit velocity and metrics. Maybe this correlation helps that happen by helping them understand that exit velocity isn't some mysterious thing. It will just come to them as they get bigger and stronger, and they can focus on all of the things you mention.
“It’s easier to fool a person than it is to convince a person that they have been fooled”
- Mark Twain
@adbono posted:“It’s easier to fool a person than it is to convince a person that they have been fooled”
- Mark Twain
Replying with quotes that indicate I've somehow been fooled about something is not really productive conversation.
In any case, I'll move on and hope that maybe someone gets something out of this thread.
@NJ2025Dad posted:Replying with quotes that indicate I've somehow been fooled about something is not really productive conversation.
In any case, I'll move on and hope that maybe someone gets something out of this thread.
If that quote was directed at you it would have included a quote of your last comment. And it didn’t. So it wasn’t directed at you. It’s a general comment about the obsession with metrics that is so prevalent among young baseball players and their parents.
NJ2025Dad - never gave the vibe he was obsessed with metrics over baseball ability. I have no doubt his son is a good player or he would not be a member here. I have no doubt that albono knows what he is talking about and is in baseball for the right reasons. I understood everyone’s point the first time they posted and certainly it was made clear by the second time. Beating someone into submission or making them cry uncle or rubbing their nose in something.... Not sure we act that way if we are face to face with someone.
@ClevelandDad posted:NJ2025Dad - never gave the vibe he was obsessed with metrics over baseball ability. I have no doubt his son is a good player or he would not be a member here. I have no doubt that albono knows what he is talking about and is in baseball for the right reasons. I understood everyone’s point the first time they posted and certainly it was made clear by the second time. Beating someone into submission or making them cry uncle or rubbing their nose in something.... Not sure we act that way if we are face to face with someone.
Really? Beating someone into submission? Wow. Reaching much? This discussion is no different than a million others that have taken place on HSBBW in the past. Expect in this discussion there have been no insults, no name calling & no disrespect. Therefore no real reason for you to weigh in on this unless you want to be part of the discussion. I’m sure you were asked to read this thread. I have been around long enough to know how that game is played. But last I checked we still had free speech on HSBBW as long as it was respectful.
@JucoDad posted:I’m going to take middle ground here, as I’m a data geek. However, I’m not sold on all the metrics at the lower levels or there importance over the basics.
As a HS senior my son hit a 450’+ bomb at a PG tournament and got invited to several national HR/power hitting events. He had elite bat speed, a serviceable right-hand stroke and was 6’ 4” 220 lbs at the time. Why did he become a PO as college freshman? Because he doesn’t have the contrast differential recognition to pick up spin at the level required to be an elite hitter.
Nobody deserves to be a HS varsity, juco, D3, D2, D1, pro baseball player or any other type of pro athlete for that matter. We’re all gifted with an initial capability and theoretical max for every activity we do. Having a plus power tool and projectable size means nothing without the vision required to utilize those tools in baseball – however, you can hit the crap out of a golf ball…
I believe that basic metrics are critical to understanding capability, projection, and areas to improve – even if those areas are never going to be elite, they can create improvement or an advantage (my kid works with a track coach off season for sprint speed and explosiveness, even though he’d never place in middle school 100).
All capabilities blend to create a result at each level – A high baseball IQ player can achieve excellent results without having best hit tools or pitch shapes/velo – until they reach a level where they don’t. It’s not a fair thing, to reach your maximum potential requires the same amount of extreme effort from everyone, but the end results will be vastly different.
All you can do is be realistic and enjoy each moment, because if your kid is on field at any level it’s a blessing...
Best post in this topic. Thank you.
JMO
Asking a slightly different question now but this is related. Is there any correlation between a player that has very good bat speed and how hard they throw? For example would a player that has good bat speed be more likely to throw harder as well?
I've heard of a relationship between throwing velocity and that most likely the harder throwing player possesses more fast twitch muscle than the average thrower. Is this also the case with the kid that has above average bat speed as well?
Just read an article in the Washington Post, about Astros' Chas McCormick's high school coach, that was interesting in light of this discussion:
"McNichol [HS coach] is especially proud of McCormick’s journey because of the unique path to get there. McCormick was a “Division I talent” according to McNichol, but his measurables kept him from getting offers from bigger programs. So he followed in his oldest brother Ryan’s footsteps and played at Division II Millersville before eventually being taken in the 21st round of the 2017 draft and making his way to the majors."
@BB328 posted:Asking a slightly different question now but this is related. Is there any correlation between a player that has very good bat speed and how hard they throw? For example would a player that has good bat speed be more likely to throw harder as well?
I've heard of a relationship between throwing velocity and that most likely the harder throwing player possesses more fast twitch muscle than the average thrower. Is this also the case with the kid that has above average bat speed as well?
I'm sure someone has done a study, but I found the 10 worst arms in the MLB for 2017 and 30% of them are in the 95 percentile for exit velocity? My gut says that throwing is like sprint speed, you can work to improve what you've been given - but if you're not born fast, you'll never be fast.
Regarding throwing and swinging fast there definitely is a correlation but some guys just can't throw well, you need fast twitch to throw fast but also the mechanics and shoulder flexibility.
Hitting on the other hand is harder than throwing but swinging fast is easier than throwing fast as batspeed is somewhat dependent on mechanics but mostly on strength and rotational skills, ie anyone who is strong and can rotate well can swing fast even with mediocre mechanics.
For example that eric sim guy on Twitter taught a pro shot putter some basic mechanics for an hour and he immediately hit 100 of the tee because he was strong, explosive and had elite rotational acceleration.
Of course that guy still would have struck out against a JV pitcher and wasn't a hitter at all but he could swing fast.
For throwing that isn't as easy.
I wanted to share a video that I had seen a while ago (it was posted in 2020), but remembered as I thought more about this discussion.
I Gained 40 Pounds! How I Did It
It is from Matt Antonelli. It talks about the real world experience he had with gaining weight from high school through college and into professional baseball. I wasn't so interested in how he gained the weight (by lifting hard and eating a lot, which is not so ground breaking), but more the results it had. He talks a lot about the impact weight gain had on his power. Going from hitting no home runs in high school, to having power legitimate enough to become a first round draft pick. Anyway, I thought it was worth a watch.
@Dominik85 posted:Regarding throwing and swinging fast there definitely is a correlation but some guys just can't throw well, you need fast twitch to throw fast but also the mechanics and shoulder flexibility.
Hitting on the other hand is harder than throwing but swinging fast is easier than throwing fast as batspeed is somewhat dependent on mechanics but mostly on strength and rotational skills, ie anyone who is strong and can rotate well can swing fast even with mediocre mechanics.
For example that eric sim guy on Twitter taught a pro shot putter some basic mechanics for an hour and he immediately hit 100 of the tee because he was strong, explosive and had elite rotational acceleration.
Of course that guy still would have struck out against a JV pitcher and wasn't a hitter at all but he could swing fast.
For throwing that isn't as easy.
^^^^ great comment ^^^
