Bogeyorpar's D1 Academic-Baseball College Ranking

Thanks for compiling..interesting stuff

I appreciate your efforts Bogey.  Thank you.

Thanks Bogey! Great list.

Surprises: Miami. Oh, I knew they were good in baseball, just surprised on the academic side. And UCLA -- I would have expected them higher.

And BC -- could they really be ranked 26 on the baseball side?!?

2019Dad posted:

Thanks Bogey! Great list.

Surprises: Miami. Oh, I knew they were good in baseball, just surprised on the academic side. And UCLA -- I would have expected them higher.

And BC -- could they really be ranked 26 on the baseball side?!?

I have no idea of Miami's academics either.

UCLA -- at least it's ranked. JCG has been complaining forever that UCLA was not on the "Tier one athletes" list but UC Davis was. (On that note, UC Davis is on this list also, so JCG may still be unhappy

The baseball ranking is from the RPI rating on NCAA D1 site. Maybe BC did extremely well last year.

LOL, well if complaining = remarking, and 2-3 times = forever, then yes, guilty as charged!  RE Davis - no, not at all, it deserves to be there. Great school; not a great baseball program, yet, but has potential.  If I was going to quibble about CA public schools I'd say that WSJ ranks Cal Poly too low, and that if you did an average for baseball over 5 years UC Irvine would do better, as it probably should.

While it's a pretty good resource I don't think this will be as useful to families as your D3 list. There are too many apples to oranges comparisons to schools because D1 conferences are so different and also due to the importance of staying in state to save tuition at public schools.  Just for one example I can't imagine any student athletes picking between these 2 schools:

JCG posted:

While it's a pretty good resource I don't think this will be as useful to families as your D3 list. There are too many apples to oranges comparisons to schools because D1 conferences are so different and also due to the importance of staying in state to save tuition at public schools.  Just for one example I can't imagine any student athletes picking between these 2 schools:

19	Columbia University	3	182	56.7
20	Texas A&M University-College Station	80	4	57.2

Very true. Look at this bunch -- how did UCSB perfectly split 4 ivies?

If a kid has the academics of Ivies and baseball skills of UCSB, he would probably go to Cal or Stanford.

It's a great list, thanks Bogey.  It's a good tool for challenging some pre-conceived notions of schools.  I think it's wise to be careful to realize it's based on a 70-30 split of academics baseball.  In my opinion, that is about right, but some people might feel as though academics are more important so 80-20 might be better, or, I suspect more likely among this group, people may feel the baseball should have more weight at the D1 level so a 60-40 makes more sense to them.  It's just a list - a useful one that may bring schools to people's attention they may not have considered or even thought of.

The comment about BC above raises an excellent point - it's a one year snapshot.  The academic side is likely fairly constant, but the baseball one could be pretty volatile.  BC had an incredible year last year.  One that was not at all consistent with how they have performed over the past several years.  I'll bet a snapshot from previous years would have resulted in a different place on the list for BC.  Same for Princeton.  They went from one of the poorest win/loss records in all of D1 the previous season, to catching lightning in a bottle and winning the Ivy this past year.  Their place on the list would have likely been quite different in 2015.  It's a one year snapshot.......a good one - but I think users should apply context.

For me, the surprise is Rice University. I've heard a lot about Duke, Vandy, and Stanford on this site, but never heard anyone discuss Rice as a high academic baseball powerhouse. From last year's rankings, it looks like it's head and shoulders with Vandy both academically and baseball-wise. How come nobody discussed this gem?

Rice is a great school - a lot to love about it - it was my 2015's #1 choice for a while.  But it's not very well known outside of its area.  If it wasn't for basketball and baseball, respectively, you could say the same thing about Duke and Vandy.

Actually Rice is very well known for both academics and baseball.

Over the past 20 years or so, I think they have been in the NCAA playoffs every year.  They have been to Omaha (College World Series) 7 times in that period. They actually won the World Series one of those years.  5 other times they fell one game short of making it to Omaha by losing in the Super Regionals.  They have a legendary coach that has won over 1,000 games and they have been ranked in the top 25 almost always in the past 20 years.  They have produced many first round picks and MLB players.

So over the past 20 some years Rice is one of the very few programs that might be considered #1. Everyone that follows college baseball knows about Rice.

What is great about this ranking is that you have four distinct groups that could result in widely different out of pocket costs to attend: (1) the Ivy schools who are essentially full price for a family that does not meet the definition of financial need, (2) the next elite academic group like the Stanford's that can give athletic money but not merit because the entire student body is elite, (3) the next group of private schools who can give both types of awards as a D1, and then (4) the in-state versus out of state public schools (some of who can qualify students for in-state based on merit).

I believe there are other threads on this forum debating the "value" of the private schools versus in-state.  But seeing this ranking would help me understand why a baseball kid from SoCal who was being recruited by both USC and Cal-Berkeley would choose Cal-Berkeley assuming a similar 25 percent athletic scholarship offer.  About $25K in yearly savings by choosing Cal over USC given very similar academic/baseball rankings would make a lot of sense. 

BOGYORPAR. Rice is the best academic school in Texas, hands down. They are not discussed much here as until recently they mostly had TX kids on their roster. (it still is TX dominated) It was on my son's list, but he was not on theirs.  As PG pointed out they are a baseball powerhouse and a few years ago they consistently had the most power arms in all of college baseball. 

Also one comment to UCSB. 

"If a kid has the academics of Ivies and baseball skills of UCSB, he would probably go to Cal or Stanford."

UCSB was one of the final three on my son's list (2011) but they were in the middle of a coaching change. He did not get an offer from Stanford, but did from one Ivy.  All you would have to do is visit the campus to know how far from the truth that statement is to a young male athlete. 

UCSB was one of the final three on my son's list (2011) but they were in the middle of a coaching change. He did not get an offer from Stanford, but did from one Ivy.  All you would have to do is visit the campus to know how far from the truth that statement is to a young male athlete. 

On ANY warm, sunny day.  And there are a lot of those.

Where can I find an updated version of this?

It’s interesting information. But how important is it to have access to the current data. There’s a school ranked high where you can get a top forty education, play in a major conference and lose weekend series after weekend series in bad weather half the time.

I believe everyone has to do their own research and make their own ranking based on academics, baseball, affordability, geography/distance from home, campus size, social and cultural considerations.

To me, Stanford and Vanderbilt would be the top two based on academics and competitiveness history. But what if they’re located in places a kid doesn't want to be want to be or it’s not a cultural fit and he’s homesick and unhappy? Now they’re not appealing

Larry Bird was a top high school basketball recruit. He was a poor kid from a small, hick town. As an adult he referred to himself as The Hick From French Lick. He got to Indiana, had a wealthy (in his view) roommate and was overwhelmed by the size of the campus. The IU campus population was twenty-five times bigger than his hometown. He left in less than a month.

He did it again in late 2017, for 2018:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...75#48319319726512275

I think that's the most recent.

anotherparent posted:

He did it again in late 2017, for 2018:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...75#48319319726512275

I think that's the most recent.

That one is for HA D3.

Realized that, sorry.  I don't think he did another D1 one.

RJM is right, it doesn't have to be totally  current, and most of the programs moving up and down would be known to most people. For example, you obviously (IMO)  have to put Vandy in the top slot right now,  and Michigan in the Top 5. UCLA deserves a significant bump, as does Cal (if you ignore the fact that US News has completely yanked their ranking, though that is another story).

Lol.  I haven't looked at this in years.  Bogey out did himself.

This is the only list to ever be created where you'll see my alma mater ahead of Clemson, Florida State, Georgia,  and Virginia Tech.   God bless creative statistics!

fenwaysouth posted:

Lol.  I haven't looked at this in years.  Bogey out did himself.

This is the only list to ever be created where you'll see my alma mater ahead of Clemson, Florida State, Georgia,  and Virginia Tech.   God bless creative statistics!

Statistics are like Stalinist persecution .... We have our man. Now we need the avenue to get him.

This is truly a worthless document, primarily because the WSJ numbers are worthless.  But some of the baseball numbers are just as bad.

Also important to note that schools within the university may have a different ranking. In my son's case we looked at business school rankings.

I took the liberty of updating Bogeyorpar's D1 Academic Baseball College ranking.  I used the same weighting... 70% academic, 30% baseball.  To round out the curves, I used a 3 year RPI average ('17, '18,'19) for baseball score and an average of the US News, Niche, and WSJ college rankings for the academic score.  Not perfect but a good starting point.  I will tool around with the rankings and adjust them for those interested in business or engineering at a later date.  Regional adjustments are easy as well.  Any requests, let me know.  I hope this is helpful.

Always love seeing these takes.   Getting to a school that has a the right blend of a great education and high end baseball is the ultimate goal.   Most important are the post education job opportunities.  Personally for my son I lean academics but that is because I know my son won't be going pro!  I am sure quite a few posters here will lean baseball as their son's have real opportunity to play professionally.  Great work.

Thanks, I also enjoy this.  Rolling average is a much better way to incorporate RPI. 

Thanks for the updated info Glofisher!

(Not picking on Gunner, here.)

"Personally for my son I lean academics but that is because I know my son won't be going pro!"

IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE YOU GO TO COLLEGE, YOU WILL BE FOUND AND SIGNED/DRAFTED. And that's why any attempt to blend the two variables is meaningless.

Cole Susler (Dartmouth, engineer) and Mike Ford (Princeton, history) are two I personally know who are in MLB. (I personally know well over several dozen more who went pro from the Ivies.)

There is no need, ABSOLUTELY NO NEED, to sacrifice academics; a baseball player going to Yale is in the same position - vis a vis baseball - as a player going to UNC. I'll leave it up to each viewer to decide which degree is more valuable in the market place (after deciding which major may even be available - and attaching a value to that major - to an athlete at each school).*

Rankings like the one presented give an appearance of exactitude when that is quite simply not the case; just because a computer can calculate it, doesnt make the results meaningful.

* I'll expand a bit. A non-athlete, top 10% econ grad at UNC will have a shot at the same job as an Ivy athlete (of any major in virtually any position in the class). A typical UNC athlete will not have a shot at that job. So, while it is undoubtedly true that the top state school graduate competes on somewhat even footing with an Ivy athletic grad, that isn't true for state grads not in the top of their class or with less rigorous majors.) [I'm using Ivies as an example; Chicago, Cal Tech, Amherst and others could be substituted.]

Goosegg- all good by me man.   I don't feel picked on.   The bottom line is there are no absolutes about lists like this, just opinions, and its just a framework with all assumptions detailed.  It was a lot of work by Glofisher (i am not working today but am guessing the markets are slow , inside joke).  Just to be clear, and I don't think you are saying this, but I never said that if you are pro material you won't be found if you go to a lesser baseball school.  Perhaps you read it that way but I was giving my personal opinion about how we approached picking our school.  If my son gets into the 90's with his low 3/4's left arm slot AND figures out how to control that wicked movement then maybe he has a shot but lets be real even if that happens its 1 in a 1,000!  I encourage him to go for it while keeping him very grounded.

I agree that no list is perfect.  I also agree that academics are very important.. thus the heavy weighting on academics in the equation.  I agree that going to an Ivy League school is a wonderful achievement and provides great opportunities.  Perhaps some are ranked too low.  I won't disagree there.  But, despite the fact that a player can be drafted out of any school, the baseball experience is different at some schools vs others.  D1 vs D3.  Competing for a national championship each year vs. losing 70% of your games has a value. Not to mention some schools produce more draft picks than others.  Perhaps this list overvalues that.. but again, no list is perfect. Also, let's not forget, if we grading schools solely on academics, like the US News, WSJ etc, those are lists that give an appearance of exactitude as well.   

"D1 vs D3."

Yes, more baseball players are taken from D1. BUT, any kid who decided to go to a D3 AND who has a potential MLB tool will be found and drafted.

"Competing for a national championship each year vs. losing 70% of your games has a value." 

What value in the job market place?  This implies that a team's athletic success, a university's athletic success (and failure), has weight in the job market. I'll wager on Cal Tech grads here. 

"Not to mention some schools produce more draft picks than others."

My first response was causation/correlation. Of my son's class of 7 recruits- which lost 70% of its games - 3 were drafted/signed. I think the clear reason is, on the whole, the recruits for a power baseball program are better than and there are far more per class than, on the whole, Ivy recruits. (Proball drafts individual players, not pools; this is why attending any specific college is irrelevant to proball prospects.) (If you're pointing to better coaching at the power conferences, I think it's a more coach-by-coach analysis. I have seen coaches at power schools turn mid-90s into upper 80s and I've seen what Tucker Frawley (Yale) [now in pro coaching] can do with his charges.) And, I believe the reason that power schools get, on the whole, better recruits, is the pool of available recruits is much shallower at the Ivies.

"Also, let's not forget, if we grading schools solely on academics, like the US News, WSJ etc, those are lists that give an appearance of exactitude as well."

We agree that these compeniums are total BS and anyone relying upon it (other than to brag to ignorant friends) is falling for the same snake oil. All the info on schools and their relative worth is out there; and particularly because each family has different priorities and variables, the choice of the right school should be tailored to your kid and not left to a business whose model is based upon selling snake oil.

Now, I think that the updated list could he broadly used for the following kid(s): a great student (non-athlete), getting a huge academic scholarship, who loves baseball as a spectator. In fact, a broader list could be created synthesizing all sports. For that (to be) top 10% kid, such a list provides a good point of reference (and a great time participating as a spectator in some amazingly fun events [SEC, ACC, I'm looking at you!]).

Can someone put weather into the ratings too? 

Losing 70% of games impacts a player mentally.   This is a very mental game.  Confidence is necessary to succeed at baseball.  Advancing to the next level and dealing with excessive losing isn't for everyone.

Goosegg - you always post interesting takes and get the conversation going.   That makes this site much more interesting.  Your takes on Glofishers reply are all interpretations that I wouldn't have made from his comments.   Bandera just gave you a different take on glofishers losing  comment.  I don't think Glo meant that losing impacted someones job prospects.   D1 vs D3 comment has so many different ways to be interpreted etc.   Bottom line I totally get where you are coming from; go where you can get the best education based on your own specific goals and work hard and develop as a player and you will be found. I also get that lists piss you off! 

"Losing 70% of games impacts a player mentally.   This is a very mental game.  Confidence is necessary to succeed at baseball."

Every batter fails about 70% of the time. (And you advance to the next level based upon individual performance.) The game is all about failures and what happens after. The motivation and drive to raise your game is generated internally with help from coaches and teammates - but is always primarily coming from somewhere deep in a player's baseball soul - wins and losses are just temporary yardsticks. There is a difference between the desire to win and the result; every player needs the desire, but the actual result is outside his sole control. (Pitcher makes the perfect pitch, fielder throws the ball over the firstbaseman's head.) That said, all other things being equal, winning is certainly more fun than losing.

While many may disagree, I think baseball is an individual game with some group overtones masquerading as a team game. And, yes, it's easier and more fun to win; but without a healthy dose of utter failure, when failure comes knocking  - as it does for every player at some level (Jeter and Gwynn excepted) - the shock for some is too much to handle. 

Man v. Man; Man v. Nature; Man v. Himself. Baseball has a bit of each. 

(Thought exercise: ask your son to be totally honest and tell you whether in a regular season game, he'd rather go 5 for 5  with a couple of dingers in a loss or k 5 times and his team wins.)

It is a game of failure.  Intentionally adding extra failure to deal with is not a good move for most.

I've never heard anybody say they picked a school because it was rated higher on US News and World Report, the Wall Street Journal, NCAA RPI rankings or other rating and listing publications.   Picking a school for a recruited athlete always comes down to financial, athletic and academic opportunity with some emotion sprinkled in.   One advantage of a recruited athlete over a regular student is that I think there is less emotion in the selection process.  Where this list can be helpful is filtering down schools within the same conference and conference level (ie..D1 mid-major)  and then using that as a guide to narrow down the search or have a recruit familiarize himself with a college he knew nothing about.   Index for index's sake doesn't give me something to act on.    

In college recruiting,  there are almost always tradeoffs.   We learned the hard way as my son's initial requirement was to stay in VA.   A couple months later, we're looking at schools in MA, TX, CO.   For example:  my son did not want to attend  a college in a city but I know he was willing to look past that only in a couple specific cases.   When you are considering engineering, architecture, etc.. and D1 college baseball your choices are few.   When you start throwing additional qualifiers on top of that then you have headaches.   The list is a cool idea, but I think it needs more relevant data for everybody and that is a tall order.

My kids were top 10% and top 3% in their class in an academically well respected high school. For college they looked at two major points and one not as important. Is the college respected academically for when they look for jobs? Does the baseball/softball team win more than they lose? Unless a player has their heart set on specific schools and/or states it’s not hard to find this mix. 

Part three they looked at was weather. It didn’t carry the weight of academics and team. But it was relevant. My daughter ended up in the South. My son ended up in the not as cold southern part of the Midwest.

One thing went wrong that had to be corrected. The southern school was one of the best for her major but not well regarded overall. When she changed her career goals and decided to go to law school she wasn’t accepted by any of the top tier law schools despite graduating PBK and having a top 5% LSAT. So rather than whine about it she went to work in one of the top law firms in the world in DC, built references/contacts and got accepted to one of the top tier law schools after two years of work.

This was done while balancing STEM majors with baseball/softball.

A humorous recruiting moment memory ... When I took my daughter to visit Boston College and meet the coach It was February. It couldn’t be colder and windier than when we were there. We had moved from southern CA to the northern Mid Atlantic area when she was a preteen. Walking back to the car she looked at me and chattered, “WHAT were you thinking when you moved us from Southern California? Does this look and feel like UCSB? (We moved from Conejo Valley). 

There are many factors that go into recruiting, and I concede a spreadsheet with a few inputs is not the only tool.  But I do think they can be helpful.   Even if you value only academics, using baseball ranking to help choose between two schools of equal academic rank is helpful.  If you value academics more than baseball, adjust the academic weighting. For those that value baseball more, than adjust the baseball weighting.  For those that want warm weather, east coast vs. west coast, business focus, STEM focus, adjustments to the inputs should be made.  During my son’s search, I used a spreadsheet that compared several schools from various divisions with inputs for distance from home, experience for athletes, student happiness, student reviews, cost, school size, rankings for food, dorm, campus, baseball, league, and business, and academics rankings weighted 3x.  The spreadsheet identified a few schools that we had not targeted and ultimately helped my son choose between schools.  Obviously, the campus visit, meeting the coaches, fit on the team, offer, etc were vital but narrowing his focus during the process was helpful.