Buster Posey Runned Over

I agree wholeheartedly that allowing a runner to plow into the catcher (who often times is pretty much defenseless if concentrating on the throw)is the dumbest thing permitted in baseball.

I don't see any realistic way around it. If the catcher is doing his job, he will block the plate if there is a play to get the runner out. Since the runner has every right to cross/touch the plate, he must go through the catcher if he chooses to block it.

What would be a realistic alternative?

We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Example #473 on why the catcher SHOULD NOT be on his knees when receiving a throw.

"Posey's agent, Jeff Berry, said he was planning on calling Joe Torre, the new leader of on-field operations, in the hopes of changing the rules that allow runners to barrel into catchers.

"You leave players way too vulnerable," Berry said. "I can tell you Major League Baseball is less than it was before [Posey's injury]. It's stupid. I don't know if this ends up leading to a rule change, but it should. The guy [at the plate] is too exposed.

"If you go helmet to helmet in the NFL, it's a $100,000 fine, but in baseball, you have a situation in which runners are [slamming into] fielders. It's brutal. It's borderline shocking. It just stinks for baseball. I'm going to call Major League Baseball and put this on the radar. Because it's just wrong."

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate.

What do you propose that ML catchers be "built" like so that they can take a hit like the one delivered by Cousins last night? I disagree that he wasn't built to take the abuse. His last 5 years have been focused on building his body to be a MLB catcher, he was in fantastic shape for the position demands.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Look at this photo
how much further should he have been out of the way in your opinion?

plate open

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Posey was not blocking the plate. He was in front of the plate to the fair side or the foul line. The runner had the line and the foul side all to himself. Posey was not blocking access to the plate.

ESPN Sports Science Plate Collisions

I am prepared to defend my comments. I might lose in the end but the debate should be spirited.

Buster Olney Blog, ESPN
On the incident:

quote:

But that is the least of the Giants' worries, in the aftermath of the devastating leg injury that Posey suffered while blocking home plate in the 12th inning Thursday night.

quote:

What follows is not meant to be a criticism of Posey or Scott Cousins: In the current world of assessing value, the act of blocking home plate is simply not worth the potential cost. Not even close.

Olney apparently has seen the incident and describes Posey's actions as "blocking" home plate. What else would you expect Posey to do? Go for a hotdog? Of course he set up in front of the plate waiting for the arrival of the ball and then expecting Cousins to be sliding toward the back of the plate moves to block the plate and deny the run. Unfortunately, Cousins had other plans.

ANTONIO GONZALEZ, AP SPORTS WRITER

On the incident:

quote:

The deciding play came when Emilio Bonifacio hit a shallow fly ball to right-center off Guillermo Mota (2-1) for the second out. Cousins tagged from third base on the sacrifice fly, beating the throw from Schierholtz and lowering his shoulder to slam into Posey for a clean - albeit cringing - hit on the reigning NL Rookie of the Year.

A clean hit.......Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting people who should know.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel sympathy, make that empathy for Posey. That could have very well been a hit that costs him untold millions in future salary once he becomes a free agent.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

This is a great post Dino! That is the exact reason Washington switched Bryce Harper from catcher.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
I am prepared to defend my comments. I might lose in the end but the debate should be spirited.

Buster Olney Blog, ESPN
On the incident:

quote:

But that is the least of the Giants' worries, in the aftermath of the devastating leg injury that Posey suffered while blocking home plate in the 12th inning Thursday night.

quote:

What follows is not meant to be a criticism of Posey or Scott Cousins: In the current world of assessing value, the act of blocking home plate is simply not worth the potential cost. Not even close.

Olney apparently has seen the incident and describes Posey's actions as "blocking" home plate. What else would you expect Posey to do? Go for a hotdog? Of course he set up in front of the plate waiting for the arrival of the ball and then expecting Cousins to be sliding toward the back of the plate moves to block the plate and deny the run. Unfortunately, Cousins had other plans.

Why look to the words of others when both live action video as well as stills are available to review with your own eyes? Those who speak on it are not always very reliable frankly; Cousins himself reported he decided to attempt to jar the ball lose only after seeing Posey secure the ball; of course this is bs as posey never secured the ball, if he slides into the clearly open plate he would have been safe and posey's career not at risk. None so blind etc.....

Don't normally get into the baseball "shoulds and should nots", but here goes. Points I contend...he was not blocking the plate (no matter what some pundits may say in illustrating their argument..seemed clear to me by photos and videos). There was plenty of access to the plate...he just probably would have been out (had the ball been caught).

I also contend IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER in this particular instance, because what was done is what is/has been ALLOWED. Runners have been allowed to go slightly out of the running path to try and "free the ball". Might not be the rule, but it has been allowed. This is why I would not be faulting the runner. He did a normal baseball play, because it is allowed. I think it is unneccessary, but it is allowed. If he was blocking the plate, the same thing would have happened.

Let's say he HAS THE BALL and is waiting...runner is ALLOWED to do whatever he wants in "accessing" the plate. This does not happen anywhere else on the field. An ejection would occur if it happened at second base. If ss was waiting at 2b with a stolen base attempt tag..slightly to the side of the bag (or even over the bag), an ejection would occur if the runner blasted into him to "access" the bag. Why is it different here? (Because it is ALLOWED.) Please do not use the "catcher has protection" argument..there is no protection for these types of collisions (head, neck, arms, wrists, ankles).

I say all this to say that I do believe THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR DISCUSSION about what is allowed at the plate...especially for an all-out, head-lowering trucking to occur.
Thank you, and you are welcome.

First it was ran over not runned over.

This is terrible for anyone.

I have watched Posey many times he's a smart guy, he was not directly blocking the plate. It looks like a dirty hit to me. Posey never even caught the ball.

What is allowed isn't always what most do.



JMO.

It looked like a clean hard-nosed baseball play. I'm not sure why there's even a shred of controversy here. These things are part of the game. Both players were doing their job and somebody got injured. Injuries happen. Catching a tough job. What else is there?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
First it was ran over not runned over.

JMO.

Nah..Posey was definitely RUNNED OVER!

quote:

Originally posted by DaddyBo:
Don't normally get into the baseball "shoulds and should nots", but here goes. Points I contend...he was not blocking the plate (no matter what some pundits may say in illustrating their argument..seemed clear to me by photos and videos). There was plenty of access to the plate...he just probably would have been out (had the ball been caught).

I also contend IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER in this particular instance, because what was done is what is/has been ALLOWED. Runners have been allowed to go slightly out of the running path to try and "free the ball". Might not be the rule, but it has been allowed. This is why I would not be faulting the runner. He did a normal baseball play, because it is allowed. I think it is unneccessary, but it is allowed. If he was blocking the plate, the same thing would have happened.

Let's say he HAS THE BALL and is waiting...runner is ALLOWED to do whatever he wants in "accessing" the plate. This does not happen anywhere else on the field. An ejection would occur if it happened at second base. If ss was waiting at 2b with a stolen base attempt tag..slightly to the side of the bag (or even over the bag), an ejection would occur if the runner blasted into him to "access" the bag. Why is it different here? (Because it is ALLOWED.) Please do not use the "catcher has protection" argument..there is no protection for these types of collisions (head, neck, arms, wrists, ankles).

I say all this to say that I do believe THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR DISCUSSION about what is allowed at the plate...especially for an all-out, head-lowering trucking to occur.
Thank you, and you are welcome.

Nice analysis.

Running into the catcher is being taught at all levels of baseball where it is allowed. I've seen my son do it and I don't like it one bit but I know he is doing as instructed.

I am obviously a Cleveland Indians fan and I believe a great career was cut short by Pete Rose. I also don't believe Rose did anything technically "wrong" although what was controversial about that play was that it occurred in an "exhibition" game.

This foolishness needs to stop and I appreciate PaDino's arguments on the subject.

I hate to pile on here but he was definitely runned down and hitted by a loaded freight train.

And that's why his knee is all blowed up today.

ClevelandDad, I hope this isn't Ray Fosse all over again. I saw that all-star game. First thing I thought of today.

And of course we all tried to be Pete Rose the next day in wiffle ball- running everyone over.

"It's legal! It's legal!"

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
It looked like a clean hard-nosed baseball play. I'm not sure why there's even a shred of controversy here. These things are part of the game. Both players were doing their job and somebody got injured. Injuries happen. Catching a tough job. What else is there?

What else?...well, I think these instances are legitimate times to open the discussion as to why it IS a part of the game. (i.e., "job descriptions" ) Catching is a tough job, even without unnecessary, intentional-force injuries (i.e., why are these types of plays allowed?). Maybe there should be no rain delays/cancellations. Shortstop is a tough job. Let's have a discussion to allow blasting the shortstop on plays at second. "Plays of the Week" would immediately get more interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by DaddyBo:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
It looked like a clean hard-nosed baseball play. I'm not sure why there's even a shred of controversy here. These things are part of the game. Both players were doing their job and somebody got injured. Injuries happen. Catching a tough job. What else is there?

What else?...well, I think these instances are legitimate times to open the discussion as to why it IS a part of the game. (i.e., "job descriptions" ) Catching is a tough job, even without unnecessary, intentional-force injuries (i.e., why are these types of plays allowed?). Maybe there should be no rain delays/cancellations. Shortstop is a tough job. Let's have a discussion to allow blasting the shortstop on plays at second. "Plays of the Week" would immediately get more interesting.

I can see where your son inherited fine intelligence and common sense to enable him at a place like West Point Daddybo. On a personsl note, I have gotten pm's asking if everything is ok with CPLZ. Is everything ok with Chip Daddybo?

quote:

he was not blocking the plate (no matter what some pundits may say in illustrating their argument..seemed clear to me by photos and videos). There was plenty of access to the plate...he just probably would have been out (had the ball been caught).

I understand and agree with the analysis of the moment but the incident is a "play" which develops over time, time enough for humans to respond to sensory perceptions as the play is developing. When the ball was arriving at home plate, Cousins perceived that he could not score by sliding. He realized that Posey was going to get him out by catching the accurate throw, and throwing himself toward the plate leading with his glove. An out at the plate was imminent in the mind of Cousins. His acceptable, organizationally taught option was exercised.....become a train wreck and knock the ball loose. To cry foul now.......begs the question, why do we applaud the other plays at the plate, and the catchers who have willingly become part of the train wreck and recorded the out?

What next, no more taking out the second baseman or shortstop on the double play? A kinder gentler baseball.......

I'm sorry to hear that Buster Posey was injured. I don't want to see anybody get seriously injured ... but stuff happens.

A part of sport is a raw, human, it's me against you, show me what you got, spirit. You can't cut this out of sport. If anything, for my money, we have gone too far that way already. In MY OPINION we have been on a march to sissify our sports and our society for a good 40+ years as we have tried to eliminate all risk from life ... which can never be accomplished.

When you have grown men being paid real money to prove who is the best on a particular field of battle, someone is going to get hurt. It happens. Yes, I feel badly for Buster Posey, but when you sign up to play, you sign up for the risks that go with it. That's part of the bargain.

I'm not saying that a player should go out and look for a way to injure an opponent, but you cannot take all of the risk out of the game without eventually suffocating the spirit of competition.

Then again, I used to do this for fun, so I may be somewhat biased ... or suffer from residual head trauma:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMFHXcd0yQ


My thoughts and prayers are that Buster Posey will be able to come back from this incident physically strong, and maybe even mentally stronger than he was when it happened.

Let's change the rules. The catcher may no longer be allowed to stand on the plate (during force out situations) and the runner is not allowed to bowl the catcher. If the catcher leans his knee into the runner to impede his slide into the plate, then the catcher "deserves" what he gets. Somebody point out the error in my logic or illogic if you will ...

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
I hate to pile on here but he was definitely runned down and hitted by a loaded freight train.

Is that correct as in the run down but this time he was runned down? I am not sure there is such a word, Buster Posey got run over.

Not all organizations use that philosophy, because not only can the catcher get hurt but the runner as well. Once you get to that level, it's up to the player to decide what to do, and my understanding is that most prefer not to take out the catcher, or themselves. If it were widely accepted on the ML level guys would be doing it all the time, but they don't, which lets you know how they really feel about it.

Conklin is a marked man, most likely not just with the Giants.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I can see where your son inherited fine intelligence and common sense to enable him at a place like West Point Daddybo. On a personsl note, I have gotten pm's asking if everything is ok with CPLZ. Is everything ok with Chip Daddybo?

Thanks, CD.
I believe Chip to be fine...actually, he's probably exceptionally fine..his son received his 2nd LT bars just this past weekend, after graduating from The United States Military Academy. I think his younger son is excelling in track & field, so he may be re-focusing his attention.

Only one person has hit upon what was the main reason for the injury - that was Redbird with his post. Posey was pretty much wrong in what he did as to what is taught. The only two things he did right was he had his cushion up the line and he gave a small lane to the plate. Then he messed up by dropping to his knees to try and catch the ball. That is the absolute worst thing he could have done.

He stays on his feet and he's probably just sore today. Two rules of thumb for catchers - 1) keep your knees bent and 2) NEVER go to your knees when you're getting run over. It's one thing to go to a knee to block a slide but you will get hurt if you take a full force of the hit.

Catchers are taught to stay on their feet and when they are going to get nailed to fall back and give with the hit. Basically the catcher is going to start falling backwards just before contact. This allows the force of the hit to go over the catcher while still making the tag. You can't do this when you're on your knees.

First I really don't think we need to use this play to create any change in the rules. Mainly due to Posey doing it wrong.

If there is going to be a change in the rules I say outlaw what the runner did. He gave up the lane to initiate contact away from the plate. He left his feet and launched his body into the catcher. I'm not going to say defenseless catcher because it was his fault. I think what the runner did was bush league and the Giants will get their payback throughout the season. If you're going to outlaw something then outlaw this cheap shot but don't take away the running over when the catcher has the ball in the line and is set up.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:


Olney apparently has seen the incident and describes Posey's actions as "blocking" home plate. What else would you expect Posey to do? Go for a hotdog? Of course he set up in front of the plate waiting for the arrival of the ball and then expecting Cousins to be sliding toward the back of the plate moves to block the plate and deny the run. Unfortunately, Cousins had other plans.

Olney either did not see the play or doesn't realize that that white thing on the ground is the plate.

Posey not blocking plate

quote:

Originally posted by NoReplay:
Look at this photo
how much further should he have been out of the way in your opinion?

plate open

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

Posey was not blocking the plate. He was in front of the plate to the fair side or the foul line. The runner had the line and the foul side all to himself. Posey was not blocking access to the plate.

I must admit that looking at the linked photo it appears that the runner went after him rather than the catcher having the plate blocked. If that is the case, maybe they should look into not allowing a runner to score on such a play. It could be just like a runner being called out because the runner going to 2nd goes outside the base path trying to breakup the double play. Granted it is a judgment call, but at times it is obvious.

So I wonder if umpires could call a runner out for crashing into the catcher if his obvious intent is not to touch home but rather hit the catcher(not blocking the plate)to dislodge the ball.

Buster Posey Runned Over

I'm sorry. But everytime I read this I laugh my backside off! It reminds me of Ernest T Bass on The Andy Griffith show.

Don't be sorry. I did it on purpose. I was a big fan of Big Jim McBob and Billy Sol Hurok.



I just saw the one where Ernest tried to join the Army to get a uniform.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Wasn't Posey a shortstop his soph year of college? I beleive the next season Delmonico transferred from Tennessee and Georgia Tech needed a catcher. I agree about moving that kind of bat to another position.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please.

Really? Try replacing the name, Buster Posey, with your own son's name, then get back to me about how sissified it would be to actually change the rule to try to protect a defenseless player not looking at whos about to plow his butt over.

As the rule stands now, a players career is in jeopardy everytime there is a play at the plate. I was just txting with my son, who is a catcher, about the situation. I made the comment about one run not being worth a career ending injury. His reply was yeah but that's a good way to lose the respect of your team and manager.

The catchers are stuck in a no win situation. Protect your self and lose respect. Block the plate and take a chance on your career being over.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:


A clean hit.......Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting people who should know.

No, you're quoting sports writers. There is a huge difference.

But, if it's writers you turn to for advice, try this one:

Jon Paul Morosi... (Fox MLB writer)

"No player on the field is exposed to greater peril than the catcher. Foul tips, breaking balls in the dirt, and, yes, plays at the plate present varying degrees of danger. Catchers will tell you that it’s all part of their job.

Yet, as with football and head hits, it’s wise for Major League Baseball to take common-sense steps to protect those who wear the tools of ignorance.

MLB could accomplish this with a simple rule change: A runner should be called out if he initiates a collision with a catcher who is not blocking the plate.

If that rule were in effect Wednesday, Florida’s Scott Cousins would have been called out after initiating contact with Posey — rather than sliding — on a play at the plate in the Marlins’ 7-6, 12-inning win.

Posey was not in possession of the ball as Cousins arrived with what proved to be the winning run. Nor was Posey completely blocking the plate. Cousins had an alley to slide in safely, around the tag. He didn’t take it.

Instead, he lowered his right shoulder into Posey’s chest, toppling the reigning Rookie of the Year in a way that made his left ankle break beneath him."

comments deleted.

I caught for many years, was trucked many times in legit plays and loved it, but this was a cheap shot IMO

You enter the game, you assume the risks. We could enact numerous rules and regulations that would make the game safer for our millionaire athletes. No blocking the plate, no colliding with catchers, batters with face masks, pitchers with helmets, no take out slides at second, no diving in the outfield, no attempts at foul balls near the stands, no climbing the walls to snag homers, no playing when it rains period, no leaving your feet at all for anything, no head first slides at first base...ah what the heck...no head first slides period, no running on and off the field - please walk, no batting practice - people like A Rod get hurt, no long toss, no tossing balls into the stands, no tossing home runs back, especially in Chicago, ......

The longer the game survives the more watered down it gets, the more the players are paid, the safer we want it to be.

Every new rule is a new infringement on a right. The right to assume the risk. The freedom to block the plate, to earn the respect of your teammates, to deny the winning run.........well maybe that million dollar paycheck is our god after all.

sportsfan5,

quote:

Really? Try replacing the name, Buster Posey, with your own son's name, then get back to me.........

I've sat in the waiting room outside the ER praying the neurosurgeon would tell me my son was alive after being flown by helicopter for a life threatening head injury.

Your son is infinitely more likely to be injured or killed driving home from the game than playing in it. And we have all kinds of rules in place to protect him on the road.

Posey was doing what Posey was paid to do, stop runners from scoring. Do you think he ever saw the Ray Fosse Pete Rose play? Did he know what the risk was? Now if this had happened to Jason Kendall would we be having this discussion?

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
The longer the game survives the more watered down it gets, the more the players are paid, the safer we want it to be.

Every new rule is a new infringement on a right. The right to assume the risk.

By golly, you may be on to something.

Let's get rid of batting helmets and go back to when runners could be called out when plunked by a fielder.

Why take away the right of player to a severe concussion.

It's definitely a potentially one-sided affair when the catcher is blind sided by a player at the plate running full tilt after getting up a good 30 yards head of steam.

In this instance, the runner clearly had a straight shot at the plate and CHOSE to veer in front of the plate, lower his shoulders to take him out.

If a throw to any base beats you there, you are out. The defensive player can't obstruct your path to the base. Why then, should the rules allow the catcher to block the runner from getting to home plate and allow the runner to dislodge the ball from the catchers glove? Only at the Pro level is that contact allowed. I love this game but don't get this part of the game.