Buster Posey Runned Over

Jimmy03,

quote:

By golly, you may be on to something.

Let's get rid of batting helmets and go back to when runners could be called out when plunked by a fielder.

Why take away the right of player to a severe concussion.

It won't shock you to learn that I think the MLB helmet rule is unnecessary. Nobody in their right mind would bat without a helmet, but if you want to assume the risk, then you ought to have the right.

Looks like a cheap shot to me. The runner lowered his shoulder. I don't get it either.

If taking out Posey is a clean play, so is drilling Cousins in the ribs (or anywhere below the neck for that matter) every time he steps into the batters box against the Giants. Ironically, Cousins didn't play at all today. I wonder why that is?.

If Cousins or his manager have the stones to put him in the line up, Cousins is going to get drilled and Giants pitcher (and the manager) is going to be kicked out of the game. The reality is all 25 guys on the Giants know Cousins is going to get his and so do all the Marlin players.

Personally, if I were manager, I'd light him up every at bat.

You know what.....maybe Posey ought to sue Cousins, MLB and the owners for hazardous work conditions and potential loss of income.

Add John Buck, Marlin's catcher and and Whiteside, Posey's replacement to the list of those not calling for reform.

quote:

so is drilling Cousins in the ribs

Yes ! Now you get my point. Assume the risk.

Yes, they assume the risk when they enter the game and yes, they are paid millions of dollars to do so. They are ultimately paid that kind of money because, it entertains you and I. Would we really be less entertained if MLB implimented a simple rule that might reduce some of the risk and possibly sustain a star like Buster Posey's career a little longer? For our entertainment.

Posey didn't have control of the ball and it appears to me that there was a path the runner could have taken directly to the plate and avoided some if not all contact with Posey. In this situation, IMO, a rule needs to implimented. That's all I am saying. Don't change the game entirely but take away the blindsided hits and discourage players from simply trying to take out the catcher. He didn't go after the ball, he just lowered his shoulder and went after Posey.


Sorry, I might be too sissyfied for you. I'll go put my slippers on and grab a cup of milk before bed time. Nighty Night.

Fair enough......put some hershey's chocolate in it and warm it up...you'll sleep better.

Cousins is a bench player who has 1 HR, 4RBI, 38 AB and is hitting 158.

He wouldn't have been in the lineup today anyway.

He's going to be labeled a first year player punk. Some say he committed early on to intentionally hit Posey and not the plate. He says he's sorry but knew he hit him hard? I don't get that. But perhaps he's realizing he messed up and gonna have some long sleepless nights.

This doesn't happen often, so it's questionable as to the intent and I say there was (and I am fish fan). Pitchers job is also to back up home, does that mean he is not at risk as well? Definitely lots of blame is on MLB and the Players Association.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/5...ey-injury-giants-leg

I wonder how soon he'll be optioned down to AAA.

Dino,

If drilling Cousins is a clean pay, why is it that the pitcher and manager will be kicked out after Cousins eats a fast ball. If it is a clean play, I would light him up every single at bat. And as stated on another forum, the relief pitcher, who has replaced the starter, (who will be ejected by the umpire), will repeatedly "attempt" to pick Cousins off at first so that the first baseman, in an "attempt" to tag the runner out, applies hard tags to the ear hole as well as the face of Scott Cousins.

John Buck was the starting catcher today for the Marlins. When the two teams meet again for a three game series in August, are you saying that it is okay to have a baserunner run him him over on any play at the plate? What about a batter letting his swing "accidentally" hit Buck in the head or upper body with the follow through of a swing? Buck didn't do anything wrong but he may end up taking one or more as well. Are those clean plays?

Cousins is going to get plunked....probably over and over. His biggest offense is dipping his shoulders to initiate the bulldozer move. The players can regulate their own game. No need for a new rule or clarification. It's their game anyway.

Wow, that was a firefight. I'm going home and lick my wounds.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:


It won't shock you to learn that I think the MLB helmet rule is unnecessary.

You were wrong, it did shock me. But it also enlightened me about your thought process and how futile any further discussion with you would be.

Moving on.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PA Dino:
It's their game anyway. [QUOTE]

You are so wrong, that game belongs to the fans who come to watch them play and pay their salary and want their team to win.

Dino aka Mr. Tough Guy,

I am no Buster Posey, but if you are calling him a sissy, I must be one too. Who said anything about law suits? I am talking about pay back via a clean play.

Since Cousins won't play in the next series, how many Marlins are taking one for the team? Which stars, Hanley, Stanton, etc. get it? An eye for an eye won't get Posey's health back.

I will talk to you later...I need to draw my bubble bath.

quote:

Originally posted by Proud Dad 24:
If taking out Posey is a clean play,

That's the point...it wasn't clean. Clean is when the catcher has the ball and is blocking access to the plate. Posey didn't have the ball when the decision was made and never was blocking access to the plate. Cousins had a clear and safe path to the plate and instead veered to his left, lowered his shoulder and went after Posey.

Anyone who can defend this play as clean or "just baseball" probably didn't wear a helmet in high school football.

Jimmy,

Obviously, it wasn't a clean play and I am not defending it. Dino, aka Mr. Tough Guy is the one who says it's clean. I am advocating retribution, whether it is considered clean or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Proud Dad 24:
Jimmy,

Obviously, it wasn't a clean play and I am not defending it. Dino, aka Mr. Tough Guy is the one who says it's clean. I am advocating retribution, whether it is considered clean or otherwise.

I know.

Jimmy,

I thought you knew. This sissy's warm bubble bath was cloudng my good judgement.

Is this clean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxYpFQIVcpg

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Is this clean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxYpFQIVcpg

Tough call. A clean hit in the pros. Met acceptable standards last year in NCAA. A violation this year in NCAA.

Jimmy- In your opinion, any shot this hit had something to do with the NCAA rule alteration?

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Jimmy- In your opinion, any shot this hit had something to do with the NCAA rule alteration?

I suspect it was, but that's based only on informal discussions.

Thanks for the insight. The catcher in the clip was my catcher last summer. Interesting hearing his take on it, as well as his girlfriend's (girl in the white dress on the field towards the end of the video).

JH if you don't mind sharing what was his take on this?

He was completely on the line and up really far (due to the throw) but it looked like the runner tried to pull up at the last minute. Plus the ball isn't there yet.

The only reason this play is getting all this publicity is because Buster Posey got hurt. Had the catcher been some nobody minor leaguer, it would've never made the news.

He said he remembers nothing about the hit and come to about three days later in the hospital. He was only out for about three weeks and then joined us for the remainder of the summer. He said that in watching the replays, the play was clean. He had come up the line to receive the ball but didn't have possession, and therefore was obstructing the runner's path. A lot of our teammates asked him if he thought it was malicious and he said no, it was just a baseball play. He seemed very detached from the entire situation in his descriptions, most likely because he doesn't remember a thing. He wasn't excited to talk about it, nor was he upset. I think he was happy to be back on the field and didn't mind the popularity on the bus for a week to be honest, and most of the conversation about it dwindled down pretty quickly as the summer progressed.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Cousins is a bench player who has 1 HR, 4RBI, 38 AB and is hitting 158.

He wouldn't have been in the lineup today anyway.

He's going to be labeled a first year player punk. Some say he committed early on to intentionally hit Posey and not the plate. He says he's sorry but knew he hit him hard? I don't get that. But perhaps he's realizing he messed up and gonna have some long sleepless nights.

This doesn't happen often, so it's questionable as to the intent and I say there was (and I am fish fan). Pitchers job is also to back up home, does that mean he is not at risk as well? Definitely lots of blame is on MLB and the Players Association.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/5...ey-injury-giants-leg

I wonder how soon he'll be optioned down to AAA.

Telling point this. In Canada this is the well known hockey goon phenom. This was an assault by a bush league player, soon to be sent back down, who may even have been called up just for this attack upon a rival contenders franchise player.
Really, why would the marlins even care if they did put this goon back in the lineup and he took one in the face? Probably just consider it better him than one of the "quality"

You know that's a thought, with his average coming off the bench maybe he needed to prove he should remain on the big league bench.
He hit a grand slam this april and hasn't produced much else yet.

Giants fans want to assign guilt/fault to Cousins in order to deflect anger at the sheer stupidity of having Posey, reigning NL Rookie of the Year and franchise player, continually exposed in harm's way by inserting him in the lineup as a catcher. This is "a part of the way the game has been played for decades."

Certainly management had to foresee this coming. All they had to do is ask Ray Fosse or Chad Kreuger or Pete Rose or Johnny Damon or a list of other catchers and position players whose careers were either shortened or ended by such home plate incidents. Home plate has to be defended. It is the ultimate goal of the game, reach home. You put a guy like Sal Fasano here, do we hear the outcry? Let's say the league does enact a rule to satisfy your protecting the catcher. When Posey does return, will you be comfortable having him catch again?

Again, if Posey were standing up here, he would not have been injured. Stay off your knees!

I watched Cousins play in college. The kid was a stud: Friday night pitcher, hit 3rd, and starting the rest of the games in CF. There’s no doubt in my mind that he’s a good kid. It’s unfortunate that he’s going to have to wear this incident, but I don’t feel sorry for him. My sympathy is reserved for Posey.


I like the Coach 2709 approach of making this a teachable moment. By going to a knee Posey clearly used bad technique and put himself more at risk. From what I’ve read, and what I saw, his intent was not to block the plate. Trying to keep his star player healthy, Bochy had instructed Posey to avoid blocking the plate in these situations. Obviously that advice didn’t help much in this case. Better technique may have.

So what about Cousins? Is his technique being taught? Should it be? Surely not by any HS coaches. But teaching the hook slide? Definitely! It’s obvious Cousins had a lane to the plate—one he claims he didn’t see. If he executes a hook slide he’s safe —even if Posey holds the ball— and there’s your clean play. Same score, same team wins, and this controversy never happens.

I just watched the clip. Regardless of who is whom, there is no question in my mind: Scott Cousins is a dirty ***** and someone ought to kick his ***. He clearly could have scored without going after Posey. It's just a shame this had to happen, especially because it did not have to happen.

quote:

This is "a part of the way the game has been played for decades."

But WHY?!?! It's only a "part of the game" at that level. What is the point?

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:
It’s obvious Cousins had a lane to the plate—one he claims he didn’t see.

I believe him. He's trying to score the go-ahead run in the 12th inning. I'm not out to make Scott Cousins a villain. I never thought his action was 'dirty' because, to me, he played within the rules. He had a split second to make the decision between sliding or trying to 'knock the ball out'.

Yes, it can be argued that he 'went out of his way' to initiate contact with Buster Posey. I'll grant that. Then what? He'd be called out? Buster Posey would still be lying on the ground, writhing in pain.

I don't believe, for one instant, that Scott Cousins intended to injure Buster Posey. No way. But, he definitely intended to knock Buster Posey into next week. And he did. Because he's allowed to.

Bottom line in this particular case is that Posey did nothing wrong from a positioning standpoint. I just went back and looked at the play in slow motion several times. He was clearly inside the line and in front of the plate giving Cousins a clear path to the plate. Had Cousins executed a hook slide as Sizzlepop suggested, he's safe, regardless if Posey has the ball or not. Cousins intentionally chose to go after Posey, not the plate.

Is this being taught to the base runners at the MLB level? It’s doubtful, but just like the steroid era when the front office was looking the other way, it's doubtful that the owners nor managers are telling the base runners not to take out the catcher if there is going to be a close play. MLB certainly isn’t telling them not to do it.

Cousins is a young player trying to make the team and trying to make a name for himself as a hardnosed player. He took a shot at the catcher trying to dislodge a ball, that wasn’t there, and make a point of saying "I'm not afraid of laying it all on the line for the team". Unfortunately Posey paid the price. Cousins was ruled safe and MLB has NO rule in place to discourage this type of mentality. The penalty for doing something like this shouldn’t be put in the hands of the opposing pitcher the next time Cousins steps in the box. But, under the current rules, that’s exactly what will happen.

If a catcher has the ball and wants to puts himself in harm’s way by totally blocking the plate, Katie bar the door, it’s on and the catcher does so at his own risk. But if the catcher doesn't have clear control of the ball and/or has given the runner at least a partial path to the plate and the runner still feels the need to plow the catcher, IMO, MLB needs to review the play and lay down a VERY harsh penalty... Something that discourages runners from the blindside hit.

PA, yes I still want to see Posey catch if possible when/if he comes back. He's too good of a catcher to move at this point in his career. Unfortunately, when/if he comes back will he be limited in his ability to play that position and will he be forced to one of the corner positions?

Thanks JH for the info.

I just don't think we need to take one play where the catcher is not doing the right thing to totally change the rules of the game. I personally think it was a cheap shot but not something to change the rules.

Has Posey spoken about the incident? I think he will be like Schaeffer and say that his technique was wrong. He may say it was a cheap shot but like redbird said - he stays on his feet and we are NOT discussing this today. Posey would probably be sore and need a day off but his season wouldn't be over.

quote:

Has Posey spoken about the incident? I think he will be like Schaeffer and say that his technique was wrong. He may say it was a cheap shot but like redbird said - he stays on his feet and we are NOT discussing this today. Posey would probably be sore and need a day off but his season wouldn't be over.

Coach, he was not on the ground like you two have stated. If he was, he gets trucked and it's over. His foot was in the ground. I'm not saying he should have gone to his knees, but to say that he was off his feet is inaccurate. If his foot hadn't been planted into the ground, he doesn't break his leg and tear the ligaments in his ankle.

I am not completely against collisions at the plate, but this one was out of line. The baserunner deviated greatly from the basepath to cause the collision. If Posey had been blocking the plate, he'd be game to be run over. That is not the case here as the video and photo evidence clearly shows he was not near the 3rd base line.

As for the NC-State incident last year, it appears to me that neither of them were "wrong" but that a collision took place. To me, that can't be eliminated. The baserunner is coming full steam down the line. The catcher goes up the line to catch the throw that was off target. The two collide because they are not looking at each other and occupy the same space. I would consider that an unfortunate and likely unavoidable injury.

Buster Posey's injury is avoided if the baserunner was more intent on scoring than he was on taking out the catcher.

Coach, so the cheap shot should just go unpunished? except for the ball that will placed in his ear hole his next AB.

True, if he stayed on his feet, we might not be discussing a broken ankle and torn knee. We could be discussing cracked ribs and a separated shoulder, instead.

What if a runner gets picked off at second and barrels his way to third and never stops- just runs through the hunched over 3B who is waiting for him, ball in mitt, and knees the 3B in the head (unintentionally)? I think there'd be an outrage, and, likely, one of those baseball riots where both teams run onto the field.

Why are things different at home plate?

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Why are things different at home plate?

I asked my son the same thing last night. His response was "we have gear on and the other defensive players don't and the play is over once the runner crosses home"

He also told me that, in his organization, they are taught to stay on their feet and roll back with the blow. If the throw is high, don't jump for it and let it go. I didn't ask him about an off target throw that take the catcher up the line. I will ask him tonight and post his response.

Not that he or I are the experts in this, but I just want to share his response as that of what is being taught in one of the Milb organizations.

Bulldog I think the world of you but I'm not sure what video you're watching. His left knee is on the ground and his right knee is pretty darn close. His left foot is why the leg broke. He's not on the bottom part of his foot. His foot is turned sideways with the inside ankle part flat on the ground. The leg had nowhere to go when he got ran over so it broke.

He stays "on his toes" even in full squat or just flat footed then he's able to roll back and kick his legs free. He's probably hurting but his season isn't over.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't see on video at all what you're saying happened.

sportsfan5 - what I'm saying is we don't need to let this one cheap shot completely change the rules to take away something that is part of the game that 95% of the time is just hard nosed competitive baseball. That's what I'm against. The NC State example was just a train wreck. It just happened but if you change the rules (using this example in the MLB settings) you are going to have umpires call the runner out or ejected for a train wreck that is unavoidable.

When you have two highly skilled / trained athletes vying for the same space in a bang bang situation there is going to be contact. Most of the time it's not on purpose so let's not change everything over one play. Cheap shots happen in all sports - some get caught and some don't. There are a lot of things that go on in baseball that are cheap but the average fan doesn't know it. This one was just obvious.