Can a hitter walk too much?

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Are umpires really this good?

Summer games are at night and on weekends. The scout league gets college umpires. The travel tournaments get the best high school umpires. It's the high school season where the weak umpires appear. It's the 65-70 year old, immobile, half blind umpires that are available at 3:30 in the afternoon. My son did get rung up (called) four times in sixty-five plate appearances in high school. None were within five inches of the strike zone. In summer ball, I'm amazed at some of the two strike pitches he's taken just off the plate that have been called balls.

He didn't walk as much in high school games. He couldn't trust the umpires on pitches just off the plate. Also being the only soph starter he batted 9th and saw a lot more strikes.

My own son just finished his first season of PONY Colt (13-14 YO.) Coaches were adherents to the "Swing if it's close" philosophy. As a consequence, we had a lot of strikeouts and low team OBP. Only two players had more walks than strikeouts, and this was against pitching that was mediocre at times.

Keeping the scorebook and the stats, I had a good perspective of what was going on. The kids that had low walk/high strikeout frequencies swung at a much higher percentage of pitches - hardly surprising. But the two players mentioned above tended to put the ball in play on the first or second pitch of an AB, or else drew the walk. They did not go deep into the count because they did not swing at pitches out of the zone.

My son was one of those two. Despite being the second slowest kid on the team, he had an OBP of .541, second best by .003 to the other player mentioned, who was the fastest on the bases. Did okay when he swung the bat too, hitting .298.

That slowness was one reason they had him moving around between the 6 - 10 slot, based on what the manager was trying to do. He wasn't a slugger, so he couldn't be up in the order where he might clog the bases - but put him lower and you're wasting a batter hitting .100 better than the players around him. No easy answer. Because the spot in the order behind him hit .130 (sigh) for the season, he was stranded a lot. That did not bug him too much on an individual basis, as he learned some time ago that RBIs are an important stat. But it sure didn't help the team's offensive output!

One more thing worth noting. I had observed that his second AB in a game always seemed better than his first - he was more focused the second time through. Checked the book and found he was hitting .200 his first ABs, and .450 the second. Told him this and in his final games he hit the ball much better his first times up.

He will likely grow some over the summer and we are going to work on his running, as well as improving his power re hitting. But for this season, I can appreciate the challenge the manager and coaches faced in setting an order so as to maximise offense.

John

I think from what everyone has said, that it is a very fine line between being very disciplined and being not aggressive enough. I do think once a batter reaches a certain age he is what he is no matter how much people try to change him. Just look at Francore of Atlanta. Everybody but him realizes he has to actually take a pitch once in a while but he just can't change. Many guys who hit their way off the Islands like Pudge Rodriguez just never can comfortably learn to take walks. This is a killer to their careers when their average drops to .270-.280 and the onbase percentage is .310 or less. Luckily for Pudge he had the great defense going for him. If they don't have great power they are useless offensively unless they hit .320 or more. A guy like Juan Pierre or Willie Tavares makes 450-500 outs a year unless they hit .320 or more but this year Pierre seems to have changed a little and is actually taking some walks which I admire him for since very few guys change in their 30's.

I wouldn't be concerned about working the count or the obp at the 13-14 level, as it should be about developing a kids swing and their confidence to take a swing.

As kids move up the ladder there are fewer "opportunities" to walk. Take a look at these stats http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv....jsp?playerID=400085 Except for one year Ichiro has always had more strikeouts then walks.

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Many guys who hit their way off the Islands like Pudge Rodriguez just never can comfortably learn to take walks. This is a killer to their careers when their average drops to .270-.280 and the onbase percentage is .310 or less. Luckily for Pudge he had the great defense going for him.

Geez, three bagger,

You’re being a bit rough on Pudge IMO.

He is a life time .300 hitter (19 seasons in the Big Leagues) He’s also hit 300 homeruns and has over 1200 RBI. He’s also a cinch hall of famer.

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Except for one year Ichiro has always had more strikeouts then walks.

Why pitch around and walk a guy who hits mostly singles (he's has over 1500 singles in his 1877 hits)? Sure he'll get a lot of hits, but most of them are no worse than a walk.

This is also the reason to simply go after the 7-8-9 hitters in a youth line up. Even if they are reasonably good hitters they probably don't have a lot of power or they'd be hitting higher up in the order.

I've seen teams where that isn't true, but not very many...

College Parent makes a good point re working the count at the younger ages. Even a kid who has a good swing and a quick bat should be looking for their pitch to hit early in the count. With 13-14 YO pitchers, it may be the first, the fifth or never.

Unless a kid has good coaching or a dad to throw to him, a lot of BP will be "try to put the bat on the ball." Not a lot of emphasis on pitch recognition or knowing where in the zone you can best hit the ball. My son has finally learned to not hack at high stuff, and he lays off low and away - the result was minimal strikeouts. As the pitching gets better, he will walk less and strikeout more, but he is starting from a better position than some of his peers.

John

PGStaff, I agree he's a hall of famer, although he mysteriously lost a lot of bulk about three years ago, but he is a guy that in the years he didn't hit .297 or better, his onbase percentages were .276, .300, .315, .290, .294, 319, and so far this year .304. This is not impressive even for a catcher and the last four of the above have occurred in the last 5 years. Eight unintentional walks and eleven in another season with over 500 AB's actually hurts your teams offense.

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Originally posted by Three Bagger:
PGStaff, Eight unintentional walks and eleven in another season with over 500 AB's actually hurts your teams offense.

I don't think Pudge's inablity to work a count for a walk is due to his upbringing, rather its a reflection of skills the pro teams want (pay for). Pro teams simply pay alot more for guys that can hit then guys that can work a count and get a walk.

A True Story

In 1977, my 1st year as an observer with the USA International Baseball event in Ohio. Marshall Brant, who I will honor in Sonoma County August 1-2-3 invited me to attend the Triple A Columbus game with Rochester.

The #3 hitter stood at the plate; the first pitch a fast ball strike on the inside corner. the second pitch a slider, call for strike 2 on the outside corner. The 3rd pitch again called a strike on the inside corner. I knew the reputation of this hitter
and secretly said "he is not that good".

The second AB, this hitter "handcuff" the right fielder with a "screaming" line drive double.
the 3rd time AB, the hitter hit the inside fast ball
far over the left field fence and the 4th time he hit a double to left center.

His name Cal Ripken. "a true story"

The batter's box is a hitter's classroom, a place to build up knowledge. If you swing at the 1st pitch, what have you learned.

Bob

I believe there is a big difference between tournament ball, high school and showcase. Showcase is not always about winning and losing but putting your best on the line. It is about SHOWCASING what you can do. Tournaments and other is about winning. Most scouts do not care whether your team won or lost.

Check this out:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/...ick_jerry&id=4136793

This thread caused me to look more closely at my son's AB's Saturday. He had a walk and a HBP. The walk was B, Swing and miss, foul, B, B, B. After strike two, the catcher was set up outside. I assume that they thought he would chase with two strikes since although both ball two and three were 'to the glove' they weren't called strikes and then ball four missed badly up and in with the catcher set up inside.

The HBP was an 0-2 curve that didn't. Son isn't going to move on an offspeed pitch that misses by that much....

So, how much walking/HBP is too much? My perception was that he walks/HBP a lot but looking back at the stats I have he walked about 25% in youth travel and less than 20% in HS this year (19/103) leading off and only 10% last year batting 2nd....So maybe this is normal since a couple of posts allude to walking 50% of the time.

I'm not really sure you can attach a number or percentage to what is too much with regards to walks, its just in my sons case I noticed when he was 14 or 15 as the pitching was getting better it seemed he needed to upgrade the aggressiveness in his hitting approach. He very rarely swung at the first pitch and it was partly my fault since as a leadoff batter type who was on the smallish side I stressed working the pitcher for long counts. As he gained size and power he had the capability to drive the ball much more often for extra bases. I think by always taking the first pitch he missed out on some that was the best pitch he would see and also he had to hit in the hole more often. After a little bit of argument, he hit his first HR on the big field at 14 when he swung at a first pitch fastball. Problem solved. This year (senior year) I wanted to see if he could upgrade his power output by being even more aggressive, even telling him not to worry if he K'd more and walked less and not get so many hits as a result of his speed alone. It worked as K's went 4 to 10, BB's went 24 to 14, average went up from .473 to .536, Extrabase hits in 21 games from 9 to 15, HR's from 2 to 5 against better pitching in less games. All as a result of getting more aggressive and not taking as many walks. We saw more hard throwers and more polished pitchers in or new district and against the higher level teams we played in non-district this year. Actually his onbase percentage increased a little as he had more hits and all this was done in less total plate appearances.

I was talking with my son's coach tonight. He's coached a lot of 16U kids into 17U showcase programs and on to college ball. His son will be drafted this week. He said he would tell anybody who wants to hear it my son can beat you with his eye, bunting and speed. But he wants him to show anyone watching he can drive the ball consistantly. So tonight there's a showcase coach watching the warmup and the first few innings. JR walked on four pitches in his first at bat and got hit by a pitch in his second at bat. It wasn't his fault. He didn't see a good pitch. At least he was moved to second in the order. After the guy left he hit two line drive singles and pitched four shutout innings in relief for the win.

In last weekend's tournament he didn't walk once. He said he saw a lot of first pitch meat. Six of his twelve at bats were one pitch at bats. So I know he's not looking for the walk to the point of losing aggressiveness.

I think you guys are on the right track especially if the player has already shown he has skills to be a disciplined batter. Its comes down to this that your only going to see a couple good pitches to hit so you better be swinging at them like your wanting to drive them some where rather than taking a carefully swing as your wondering if its truely going to be a good pitch to hit as if you do take to carefull approach your not going to get good aggressive swings on the ball. Remember this too that the ball has movement and any little hesitation or slowing down of the swing is going to get more hits that makes contact only partially with the bat for a weak grounder or popup. So you got to be aggressive, is my read on all of this, or you will not be able to get all of the ball with a hard aggressive swing for more extra bases hits. I like the comment be ready to hit every pitch deep and only pull back at the last moment will make for a little more aggressive approach.

RJM,
I also think your son is on the right track and will be fine. If a guy walked 140 times after he was in pro ball while hitting .280, no one would think he was walking too much. Its just while you're trying to showcase your hitting ability and get your first notice by scouts that the approach may have to be somewhat more aggressive. But there's no perfect way to solve this puzzle. I would think if your son is a leadoff type, then more walks are quite necessary as long as he takes some swings in front of the scouts and college coaches also.

In my view, the coach should explain the role of the hitter in certain slots. We oftentimes take for granted that kids know these things.

If a batter is the biggest, strongest guy in the order and batting third or fourth, he is up there to make contact and make big things happen.

The table setters would be the one, two guys. These guys would usually have occasional power, good speed and a good eye at the plate.

The 'meat of the order' are the big guys who have the ability to produce big. If a batter is 6'5", 220 pounds and bunts most of the time, his options will be few.

A batting order is like a script where the performers are expected to meet the expectations.

It may not seem fair or reasonable, but it is the nature of the game.

Quincy, well said and I agree 100%.

IMHO--Baseball is a team game--when up to bat the goal is to get on base and score runs. It seems a bit selfish to swing at pitches out of the strike zone, shows you have no confidence in batter after you to drive you in. Can't see benifit of swinging at pitches off plate--there is a reason there is a strike zone that is were a hitter can hit the ball---makes sense to me

here's another side that shows baseball "smarts"... regardless of how fat a pitch is shouldnt a aplyer take the first pitch if the previous two batters walked on 8 straight? Shouldnt he take the first pitch if the previous two batters swung at the first pitch and grounded out.. especially if one of those batters was hi pitcher?

I hope this is the type of thing scouts and colleges are looking for as we begin this journey because its how my son has been taught the game.

Maybe I am old fashioned but this reminds me of the story about John McGraw who fined a player who hit a HR because he had given him the bunt sign!

bothsportsdad,
I understand what your saying about taking a first pitch if a batter walks a couple of guys. But on the other hand he most likely will be trying very hard to get that next first pitch over the plate. Maybe take a little off to accomplish this. This can lead to a meatball right down the middle. As a 3-4 or 5 hitter you are looking to drive in runners. Although he should not swing at a pitch over his head.

I don't think you have to automatically take the next pitch after 8 straight balls because yes he might take something off and lay it right in there. It does kill me and makes me feel a kid is not thinking if he swings at anything other than one right down the middle in that situation.

Baseball Dad46,
During his career, the great Ted Williams was often criticized because he would not swing at a pitch even a fraction off the plate even if the winning or tieing run was sitting on third where he could have easily pulled a fly or grounder to get the run in. Instead he took the walk and during the 50's he often had inferior hitters behind him. He always said he wouldn't be a .344 career hitter if he let down his guard even in those situations but I think sometimes you've got to sacrifice your average to win games. He was a stubborn guy and no one was going to convince him otherwise.

well swinging at the first pitch, even if fat, in this scenario will get you one of two things: kuddos if rip it into the gap for a double or in the doghouse if you ground into a DP...

For me it all depends on who I have in the batters box---you have to know your hitters and their abilities

TR.. what would be your position on the Williams quote above. I had read that one before. Do you think Williams was right or should he have widened his strike zone a bit with runners in scoring position? I recall Whitey Herzog basically saying the same thing about Keith Hernandez... "he walks too much for a three hole hitter". Of course, he went on to have great sucess with the Mets after Herzog traded him.

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here's another side that shows baseball "smarts"... regardless of how fat a pitch is shouldnt a aplyer take the first pitch if the previous two batters walked on 8 straight?

What's the difference in a fat pitch whether it was thrown after 8 balls or 6 of 8 were strikes?. I cringed everytime I see hitters let meatballs go by. If a hitter sees a first fat pitch to drive and is looking for that pitch considering the mindset from the hitter might be that the pitcher might groove one to get a strike, why let it go? All the years watching my son play, moreso as a teen, from Babe Ruth thru high school, his approach was to attack the first pitch because it might be the best pitch in the AB. I would think if his HS coach had a problem with his approach, he'd of have had a sitdown with him.

the difference is in playing the percentages...

This reminds me of 3 players who played for the Pirates in the 70's, all developed in the Pirates system and all who played the same position: 2B. Dave Cash, Rennie Stennet and Willie Randolph. The Pirates thought so much of Stennet that they traded a proven commodity in Cash and then traded Randolph as a skinny kid prospect to the Yankees as a throw in. It was a classic case of "buying the blue jeans". If watched them and judged them on the 5 tools alone you would certainly choose Stennet. Cash went on to play successfully for the Phils and Randolph became a fixture in pin stripes. Cash I know managed in the minors and of course Willie managed the Mets. Who was the best "baseball player"?

In retrospect if you look at it from a stats perspective Randolph is the easy choice today. He was the most likley of the three to work the count and be patient. Its probably safe to assume he did more than Stennet as far as the little things that helps your team win. My point is that its easy to "hack" and it in fact makes it harder to be a productive player for your team over the long term.

I would say from a team standpoint, having a mix of pitch takers and aggressive hitters would make for a successful offense because the guys who take lots of pitches wear down the pitcher, then you get your hackers ready to feast on meatballs being served up by a tired pitcher.

I suppose if you compare a free swinger to a patient hitter, the percentages might favor of the patient type hitter but if you got a runner on 3rd less than 2 out in a tie game, that hitter's job is to make contact to get the run home rather than try to reach on a walk.

In the end ,IMO, it comes down on the type of hitter you're dealing with and what works for them. Play to the hitters strengths and weaknesses and put them in the best position in the lineup where they have the best opportunity to succeed.

After 8 straight balls, it is exactly the fat pitch that I would want a batter to be looking to hit hard. There is a good chance the pitcher steers one in the zone just to get a strike. Great opportunity to drive the ball!

Can a hitter walk "too much?" This question can't really be answered. Not enough context. I can think of plenty of situations in which I would prefer the batter not have walked (men on base, lets two meat pitches go by but still works a walk.)

But if a hitter is swinging at good pitches and letting balls go by, I don't think he can walk too much.

But if his approach is to pass up driveable pitches in order to seek a walk, then yes, he can try to walk too much.

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But if a hitter is swinging at good pitches and letting balls go by, I don't think he can walk too much.

But if his approach is to pass up driveable pitches in order to seek a walk, then yes, he can try to walk too much.

Rob, I think you have summed it up perfectly.

I dont think the discussion is to let a bunch of hittable pitches go by in order to draw a pass. No "ballplayer" is going to do that. The question is really the Willaims scenario... do you expand your strike zone with runners in scoring position? Williams batted third... are you willing to take a pass with runners on second and third to load the bases and let the cleanup guy do his job?

I am sure that most on here are familiar with Williams book on hitting. In it he has a chart or grid where he has divided every pitch location within the strike and assigned it a corresponding batting average. Pitches low and away and up an in are of course low averages.. the lowest being .220 as I recall. Are you better off swinging at a pitch that you are generally going to hit about .220 if you offer at it less than two strikes or are better off being patient?

Last night in a junior legion game this exact scenario we have been talking about reared its head. team is down by two with runners on second and third, one out last at bat. Kid who is a starting varsity C as a freshman is sent up to PH. Kid is a very good natural athlete... but a total free swinger. He has played sparingly behind another junior varsity catcher most of the season so when he comes to the plate the pressure to produce is on. He swings at the seond pitch, a low and away breaking pitch and pops up to first. It illustrates my point perfectly: if you go to a combine this kid shows well because hes a very good athlete.. but frankly he's a lousy baseball player.

BTW, William's RBI numbers were, shall we say.. respectable (lol) I dont think he let to many good pitches go by.

My son went through this year as he bounced back and forth between Varsity & JV.

He batted #3 on the JV (very strong 4 hitter behind him). He took some slack for walking to often for the JV coaches liking from the 3 hole and was repeated told he needed to be a run producer from that spot. He has always been a kid who will not swing at a pitch he doesn't like w less than 2 strikes.

He finished the season batting .407; he had 22 hits and 25 walks. He also struck out only 7 times. All this said, he had much fewer RBI than I think he could have. There times that he saw fastballs early in the count that he could have driven.

This topic is interesting to me only because it was a topic discussed regualrly in our house this spring.

In one HS game last year, my son went 0-4 w/ 3 rbi. He obviously benefitted from the 8,9,1& 2 hitters getting the job done and getting on base all day. He had it all set up for him to knock in aa lot of runs that day but it didn't work out that way. His best AB that day was a sac fly to the opposite field warning track. The other AB's were routine grounders that produced runs. In another AB, he hit into a 6-4-3 DP that scored another run, no rbi. It wasn't a good day with the bat but was still able to produce 4 of the 9 runs scored that day. As a 3-hitter, his job was to knock in runs.

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It wasn't a good day with the bat but was still able to produce 4 of the 9 runs scored that day. As a 3-hitter, his job was to knock in runs.

It's difficult to make any type of judgement based on one game and you leave out important information. If he is grounding out with RISP with less than two strikes then I would say he's only being marginally productive. However, if he's putting the bat on difficult pitches with two strikes then he has had a good AB.

His production could've been higher with a hit or two but even the best players can go hitless in a game now and then but his 3 rbi's were tied for the team high that day. Production is production. That game as I mentioned, he had quite a few RISP and his best AB was the sac fly to the opp.field. That AB, he was down 0-2, fouled off a couple and took a 1-2 or a 2-2 pitch the opposite way. The sac fly was to the warning track, just getting under it and just missed hitting a 2-run HR The runner easily scored from 3rd for the game's first run.

Regardless of the hitless day, bottom line is he produced, got the runs in and before losing in extra innings, those runs were important at the time. Again, not his best day with the bat but still produced runs. If he drove in 5 runs that day they may have won but he was a total team player and could care less about stats and I mentioned that game to him the other day and he simply said "I moved runners over and had important RBIs".

there's been a ton of intelligent discussion on this thread that has spun off into various subcategories, line-up spot, taking first pitches, showcase vs. regular game, etc.
However, my take is simple.
Simple question: can you walk to much?
Simple answer: NO! (you have to get on base to score)

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Ignored post by Wayne posted June 13, 2009 01:00 AM Show Post

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Wayne: it was exactly this observation that sparked the whole Sabremetrics revolution.