Case in Point - Internet Gurus

And we care about this on HSBBW because??????

B25,

I would recommend that dads not use their son, or let their son be used, as a guru's poster boy.

The Dick Mills example was certainly a lesson. And watch out for s-e-t-p=r=o. As N$man says, "his success is your success".

Not very healthy I would say.

quote:

I would recommend that dads not use their son, or let their son be used, as a guru's poster boy.

I agree.......Not a good idea!!

I has been a rather slow week for me on the HSBBWEB so i thought I would add my two cents to this thread.

The movie in question was based on a play of the same name. I am not sure what the "dogma" involved was but I am willing to discuss it since I have nothing better to do right now. The trial involved the criminal charge of teaching evolution in public schools. It was based on reality. The real conflict was over whether Darwin's theories could be taught in public schools. Tenessee had passed a law criminalizing the teaching of anything that contradicted or was inconsistent with the biblical story of creation.

William Jennings Bryan [in real life a 4 time Democratic candidate for President of the US] voluntered to be one of the prosecutors of John Scopes, the real life teacher charged with criminal conduct. Clarence Darrow [played with a fictional name by Spencer Tracey in the movie; see picture above] voluntered for the defense.

In the play, Bryan was called by Darrow as an expert witness on the Bible since the judge would not allow into evidence any expert testimony about the validity of Darwin's science. Under Darrow's heavy cross-examination Bryan began to alter the creation story by admitting that a day might have been more than 24 hours during creation, etc. The play shows news reporters from "the east" writing biased reports about the trial and belittling the locals and their "ignorant beliefs" [happens a lot today]. The play also shows universal local support for politician Bryan as the defender of the "truth and the faith" [happens a lot today also].

The consequences of the news acccounts of the actual trail for Bryan were severe. He never again won the nomination of his party for President. The teacher Scopes was fired from his job, was convicted of the crime and fined
less than $20.00 but received no jail time which prevented any appeal. Darrow went back to Chicago and had many more wins and losses at criminal trails throughout his brilliant career. The reporters left satisfied that they had exposed to the civilized world that only ignorance and prejudice reamined in the Tenessee town and the locals declared victory and went home convinced that their opinions and beliefs had prevailed.

No, I don't believe the play should be pointed to as an example of how dogma hurts the ones around you. Otherwise you have to take the very politically uncorrect position on this site that the creation story in the Bible is dogma. Or you have to say that Darwin's theories are dogma which is, of course, nonsense. I don't believe that either of those written presentations regarding the history of man is dogma. Rather, I choose to believe that this play made into a movie shows how normally rational people can get worked up, intolerant and even indignant about differences of opinion and how many so called and by some revered experts really don't know what they are talking about when they are pressed.

If you want a real good movie about how dogma can hurt people around you [or even yourself], watch the Da Vinci Code; or read the book.

TW344

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
B25,

I would recommend that dads not use their son, or let their son be used, as a guru's poster boy.

The Dick Mills example was certainly a lesson. And watch out for s-e-t-p=r=o. As N$man says, "his success is your success".

Not very healthy I would say.

Tom, you bring up a great point. Video of that young man is on this site in several places as THE example of this person's beliefs and improvement. If you cast stones at others, then you'd better be sure that you have not set your own child out there. I agree 100%. I do feel for the boy and continue to wish for his success. I would say that if you took the guru's son and the young man the guru attacked, there is no comparison AND only one of these two has any chance of playing professinal ball. (Ironic isn't it that the one attacked may someday have a MLB swing because he's in MLB.)

Pronk, I could care less if you enjoy this post. The point of this and the rational for it is that some member alinged with the messiah of hitting should realize that his message isn't working for his own son. For a year he could blame someone else. Now for the last 2 years he needs to blame himself. Pronk, that family that was attacked reads this site and so I wanted to show support. Pronk, I would point out that you haven't made a similar objection whey the guru made similar posts. Why is that? Of course I'll go look on at that other webside for one of your other identities and see if you objected there to his post. If so, I apologize.

TW344, are you aware that the producers of Inherit the Wind have a disclaimer that it is not supposed to be a facual represention the Scopes Monkey Trial? Have you seen the video? The Dogma presented was McCarthyism and what that was doing to society. They wanted to show the effects of this fictionalized account of the monkey trial on a home town. Do you remember the preacher and how he drove his daughter Rachael away? Do you remember the testimony of Matthew Brady? BRADY SYMBOLIZED MCCARTHY AS HE TESTIFIED ON PUBLIC TV ABOUT COMMUNISM IN THE ARMY! This movie and script are very close to Murray's The Crucible.

Yes, I can compare some of these hitting gurus and what their followers do to this! An attack on this family would be one such case.

Mills even went so far to put his son's picture on money/bills as part of the promotion of making your kid a bonus baby following the program.
That was way over the line.

It is really a shame that anybody wold resort to attacking a player and his family over a swing style.

This is a sure sign of a pathetic neophyte or a more pathetic standard bearer of the dogma being protected.

While some make comical arguments for their lack of understanding of the nature of the swing, only their theory or style should be criticized or applauded.

Just as with dogma, there is no 'WAY' that works for all. There are only constants.

Quincy, you are very wise. Your comments are why I make it plain that I'm no expert. Even with as long as I've been at this, I seem to learn more. Will Rogers once said, "Every man is ignorant only on different subjects." He was pretty smart as well. BTW, you won't see me putting up my daughter's swings. We are fortunate that she has made varsity as a freshman in a very successful program but SHE HAS A LONG WAY TO GO. I'd never put her video up on a public site for others to rip apart.

The way I read that post, it was an offer to help the kid. Now if Gregg thinks Rich is nuts or whatever, no big deal.

On the flip side how good was Steve's kid? Epstein's? Well Jake had some minor league time but my point is to compare Robert to Brandon is absurd. Are you suggesting that if Paul or Gregg were to adopt Brandon that he'd suddenly blossom into a legit pro-prospect? Rhetorical question of course, I know you aren't saying that but what I am trying to say is comparing kids to make a point about instructors can work against you.

It seems unreasonable to compare players.

We should limit our comments to the styles being suggested, endorsed or promoted and the results they are offerring.

Would Rod Carew have won so many batting titles had he had a swing like Bonds, Mantle or Ruth?

Would Ichiro be as good if he had a swing like Bonds?

Our bodies are different based on many factors, not the least genetics. We would better serve players by adapting 'their swing' to get the results they are looking for or the best possible result.

The arguments that take place concerning the 'WAY' to swing a bat are foolish.

We would better serve the board to never get personal even in our disagreements.

We do a dis-service to any player by attacking them for their performance, unless they are in the MLB.

Should we have ARod change his swing because he doesn't hit in the playoffs?

Even an artist with a bat will run into umpires with different strike zones, defenses that just catch everything hit or pitchers crafty enough to fool them.

In my opinion, we should concentrate on the stance, weight shift, hip turn and a swing that is short to the zone and long through it.

...and if you put your son out there constantly in video as the example of a swing philosophy, you had better not attack others. This is especially true when you present yourself as THE authority on the swing and have all of the answers, and you attack others for their beliefs. I said it elsewhere and I'll repeat it again, there is something wrong with someone who apparently takes PLEASURE in hoping that an 18 year old will fail.


Pronk, on the flip side isn't relavant here. Neither, as far as I know, posted video of their children both in attacking one person hitting philosophy and then posted video of how his "discoveries" have radically improved his son's swing. Neither did so on several websites. Neither does so right now. That's a huge difference. BTW, if you read that post as an offer of true help, I apologize for my post here and there. However, I believe most know that "help" was the real point of that post.

Pronk,

It isn't unreasonable to ask if what an instructor advocates actually works in real life or not. For better or for worse, Richard's only example is his son, and based on that sole example, one can for good reason be very skeptical that Richard's advice works. Maybe Go Cardinals or someone else will emerge to be his "poster boy" but for now, he doesn't have anyone who has used his teachings who has achieved a high level swing.

As an aside, I don't buy lack of athleticism as being an excuse for not having high level mechanics. Virtually anyone can get high level mechanics through lots of practice, but that doesn't always translate to becoming a high level hitter. There are lots of guys out there that you have never heard of in the golf world that have near perfect mechanics, but just aren't great players. There is no reason his son can't get high level mechanics, and from what I understand, Richard seems to indicate he likes his son's mechanics. Obviously I disagree.

As for the other guys, yes, absolutely 100% what they teach needs to be evaluated based on the players they produce. Englishbey has a bunch of guys playing at high levels, of course Epstein as well. When an instructor has lots of players, their son doesn't matter. It's just in this particular case, both Richard and ***** are using someone's son to advocate their position, which is unfortunate in some ways. But this will persist until both gentleman produce players outside of those two that have a known track record of using their methods.

-JJA

Quincy mentions the "constants". The old name was "absolutes".

I agree there are "constants" and they are difficult to pin down, but almost everyone who has swung in the mlb pattern has felt/recognized some.

What do you do to deal with how to define constants ?

Or do you give up ?

N&m$n , as an engineer, gave up. he said there was no such thing as absolutes. No such thing as "good mechanics". What you could learn the most from was an engineer able to understand a swing well enough to build a ground up model that would permit the understanding and consistency that would explain the swing with the same engineering principles that underlie the artificial model, then providing structure for how to approach learning the swing.

Unfortunately, building models involved OVERsimplifying the swing pattern to the point of not resembling how MLB hitters swing. N$man thought the simplest way was to adjust the torso up/down by bent at waist, then adjusting handpath in/out which was possible because if you hook/pull the handpath, you speed rotation up enough to get the inside pitch.

This is NOT how MLB hitters adjust for power hitting.This can be an option for 2 strike hitting or placement hitting or for other settings such as softball where hot bats are a factor.


So, if the N%man engineering approach is unsatisfactory, how DO you make the absolutes method work ?

I think there are 2 important approaches:

1- compare all authors describing MLB swing and "reconcile them". They are all describing the same pattern, so this is possible.

2-get perspective on the pattern from some other vantage point. The experience in golf provides this, the approach being best described by Jim Hardy in his PLANE TRUTH FOR GOLFERS series. More on golf:

In golf, where the ball on tee permits a much wider array of successful pattern/hybrids (which is a FAR more varied and complex situation than MLB), Hardy has figured this out.

There are 2 basic patterns that result in consistent/repeatable impact which are defined by how the arms connect to the torso. ALL golf info can then be sorted at a high level as belonging to one pattern or the other and the rest of the info that does not sort into one or the other is useless info.

Usually, the key info in each pattern is incompatible or the opposite of what is best for the other.

The 1 plane golf swing uses the shoulders to swing the arms around the body as the body turns. (PCR like)

The 1 plane swing tends to have a plane that is too flat/"shallow" and a path that is too wide. Remaining aspects of the pattern must work to make the swing trajectory steeper and more narrow.

The 2 plane golf swing swings the arms up and down as the body turns back and forth. (MLB like where it is OK to maximize swing plane steepness to the point of being "vertical" to match pitch, because you do not have to worry about squaring clubface in hitting).


The plane tends to be more steep and path/"sides of swing" too narrow in 2 plane golf.

Other pattern attributes must adjust the swing to be less steep and narrow if this is your preferred pattern.

ALMOST EVERY as aspect of the 2 golf patterns has an opposite requirement.

How you set up, where the weight is caried, how the hips move, sequence,etc,etc


Advice for one pattern is DEATH to the other.

For example, take the following golf "cues":

-Keep hands in front of body/chest.

This kills the 1 plane swing, but is sound advice for 2 plane

-Hit against a firm front side.

great for 2 plane, death to 1 plane.

-Stay down to ball.

great for 1 plane, death to 2 plane.

-Stay behind ball.

great for 2 plane, death to 1 plane.

ETC.

Now it turns out, the same 2 basic patterns exist in hitting, BUT only the 2 plane type pattern works in MLB which is why the cue "swing down" is still popular. MLB alos has to adjust spine/torso angle on fly (more influenced by shoulder tilt at top of torso, not bend at waist which is too proximal for adjusting on fly) as well as angle of connected lead arm ("weathervane").

Analytically, the ONE pattern that works in MLB is what Willams described as the "slight UPswing".
it is the equivalent of making everything a "low ball" type swing as oppose to swinging the bat around the body in the shoulder plane as you might think would be god for high ball.

These are 2 ENTIRELY different patterns, and, unfortunately, N$m&n, knowing nothing about hitting, chose to popularize the low level/"high ball" pattern that does not work, AND IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH, MLB hitting.

It isn't just that s-e-t-p-r-o (PCR/PCRW) info isn't perfect or has a different spin, it is that it has popularized on the internet with MANY followers, especially/moreso in softball (where it can be an improvement) a swing model and supporting info that will PREVENT learning the mlb pattern by training the body to move in an incompatible way, adjusting by bend at waist, brute force rotation, swinging bat actively with shoulders turning perpendicular to spine, just holding on to bat with hands, etc..

As DMAC noted, there is no way this can lift the low ball.

There is no way to adjust late. it is like swinging as if everything is a high ball you want contact by swinging the bat around the body with the shoulders, like making everything a tomahawk/swing down, NOT the slight upswing that Williams described (and many the other MLB authors such as Lau,LauJr,Peavy, Epstein, Slaught, Yeager, Mankin, etc.)

This "pattern based approach" has been figured out in golf AND it applies to the MLB swing.

IF you want to discover "constants" they should reside in these descriptions and in the descriptions of others describing this particular pattern, and should be reconcilable as compatible across numerous such descriptions.

There ARE absolutes, just as in golf. This is a good way to find them.

So is taking hacks yourself.

BUT, in MLB, the successful MLB pattern due to the requirement to adjust on fly is MUCH more homogeneous which makes this "reconciliation across multiple authorities" much easier than in golf.

You just have to figure out how to filter out the impostors like N%m&n.

If you are spreading the PCR?W info, you are an enabler, PREVENTING progress toward the mlb swing.

Tom,

You can write pages and pages, but the facts are that Steve E has now taught lots of players who have swing speeds in excess of 75 mph and have swing quickness less than 5 frames. In other words, he has many students with quick, powerful swings. And even without your seal of approval, colleges are shelling out precious dollars to get these swings into their program. Obviously they see something you don't, and they're speaking with their wallet which speaks volumes louder than a guy with a grudge on the internet.

-JJA

quote:

.....colleges are shelling out precious dollars to get these swings into their program.

JJA, does this include College baseball programs?

Good question for Steve. I don't know if he has any college baseball scholarships yet. He very well may but I really don't know. He hates it when I speculate so I'm not going to. Ask him on his public forum and I'm sure he will answer you.

-JJA

JJA, I don't think I'll do that, but, thanks anyway...

The reason I asked is, hitting in softball is pretty dysfunctional on all levels....Doesn't take much to vastly improve most softball hitters.....

There's pros and cons of taking that position. Tom has pretty much come out and said that Steve E will never produce a college baseball scholarship. The downside to taking that position is that there will be an awful lot of crow to eat if/when it happens, and it may already have, I just don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
JJA, I don't think I'll do that, but, thanks anyway...

The reason I asked is, hitting in softball is pretty dysfunctional on all levels....Doesn't take much to vastly improve most softball hitters.....

So far, BlueDog, you have displayed a profound ignorance of what a high level swing is. If you don't wish to look at what Steve offers and/or knows, that's your choice. Personally, I don't care as you apparently don't actually teach or coach, but I do wish you'd stop holding yourself out as some kind of expert.

Tom - You've been misrepresenting what pcr is for a long time on a lot of different forums. You too should refrain from claiming some special knowledge of what "THE" perfect swing is.

quote:

If you don't wish to look at what Steve offers and/or knows, that's your choice.

This could be the funniest thing you've ever said on here...........

BB-

PCR SHOULD be able to work on occasion in college with hot bats, less so now that the new regulations are in place.

Not likely to work in MLB with beter pitching and wood bats.

Depends on what your goal is.

College scholly for fastpitch, go for PCR if you can't throw overhand well.

College scholly for BB, PCR would be last resort.

N$man now says he does not coach, he just purveys info, so he isn't responsible for Stock.

Now N$$an wants you to pony up and buy his NEW info, including his explanation of "torque".

How is Stock doing with his "old" information ?

STEVE E is coaching AND purveying PCR info.

Is that the old info or the new info ?

How's that work ?

So I am a hypocrite for not posting why do we care? You obviously didn't get the point which was "We care about this on HSBBW because..." **** you have an obsession with Rich. My whole point of "why do we care", was why do you feel a need to start a new thread at HSBBW... something anyone can clearly read over there? I didn't respond to that thread, since there is nothing for me to offer. The proper action is to let a thread die it's own death, via natural causes.

You chose not let it die and bring it up here. Probably because it's dead here. At least this place gets a little interesting when Rich sneaks his way in. Carry on, back to the snooze fest.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

Pronk, on the flip side isn't relavant here. Neither, as far as I know, posted video of their children both in attacking one person hitting philosophy and then posted video of how his "discoveries" have radically improved his son's swing. Neither did so on several websites. Neither does so right now. That's a huge difference. BTW, if you read that post as an offer of true help, I apologize for my post here and there. However, I believe most know that "help" was the real point of that post.

Pronk, and did you read this previous post of mine?

Note the quote, "BTW, if you read that post as an offer of true help, I apologize for my post here and there. Am I obsessed with Rich? Nope, I could care less other than his establishment really does have very good wings to eat. I would change the blue awnings to red to match the sign. However, that's just personal preference. The point isn't about some obsession, it is first about attacks by "gurus" on any site that attack 18 year old kids and their family. As noted, this thread was also a demonstration of support for that family who I've been told read this site from time to time and are registered members.

Pronk, I do feel better knowing, and since you seem offended by my statement of hypocracy, that when various other people attacked on other sites, you'll step in with similar comments. In knowing that, I apologize again.

Finally, perhaps one positive aspect of this is that the use of video by anyone of their child on public websites leave them open to all kinds of negative responses. Should anyone profess to be an "expert" which I undoubtly am not, they might "Inherit the Wind." Pronk, PM.

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
Tom,

You can write pages and pages, but the facts are that Steve E has now taught lots of players who have swing speeds in excess of 75 mph and have swing quickness less than 5 frames. In other words, he has many students with quick, powerful swings. And even without your seal of approval, colleges are shelling out precious dollars to get these swings into their program. Obviously they see something you don't, and they're speaking with their wallet which speaks volumes louder than a guy with a grudge on the internet.

-JJA

bat speed with no adjustibility gives you an eventual plumber lawyer or indian chief as well..just because you have batspeed doesnt mean anything..you need to put the bat on the ball..and dead hands hold the bat and turn just wont give you that..more noticable on outside pitches,

wogdoggy,

These arguments have been hashed over and over so there is no point doing it again. I am surprised, however, you can argue that bat speed "doesn't mean anything" as clearly power is the #1 item on every coaches wish list. Bat speed is clearly extremely important. Everybody wants a powerful swing, and power is generated from bat speed.

Finally, I'll just point out that the colleges are giving out scholarhips to get those EH students into their program. They aren't doing this in a vacuum, with video analysis done by Tom who gives the thumb up or down on a swing. They obviously like what they see in real games, i.e., batting average, power, etc. If these players had no "adjustability" they would obviously exhibit low batting average and high strikeouts, properties that are inconsistent with a scholarship offer. So obviously they have "adjustability" or else they wouldn't be successful in games.

-JJA

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
wogdoggy,

These arguments have been hashed over and over so there is no point doing it again. I am surprised, however, you can argue that bat speed "doesn't mean anything" as clearly power is the #1 item on every coaches wish list. Bat speed is clearly extremely important. Everybody wants a powerful swing, and power is generated from bat speed.

Finally, I'll just point out that the colleges are giving out scholarhips to get those EH students into their program. They aren't doing this in a vacuum, with video analysis done by Tom who gives the thumb up or down on a swing. They obviously like what they see in real games, i.e., batting average, power, etc. If these players had no "adjustability" they would obviously exhibit low batting average and high strikeouts, properties that are inconsistent with a scholarship offer. So obviously they have "adjustability" or else they wouldn't be successful in games.


u cant hold on to the bat and turn and have adjustibility from torso tilt,,the hands play a part..i hear hulk hogans batspeed is 90mph..


again you can have great bat speed and still stink..ever hear the old saying just keep the ball off his bat?


-JJA

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
wogdoggy,

These arguments have been hashed over and over so there is no point doing it again. I am surprised, however, you can argue that bat speed "doesn't mean anything" as clearly power is the #1 item on every coaches wish list. Bat speed is clearly extremely important. Everybody wants a powerful swing, and power is generated from bat speed.

Finally, I'll just point out that the colleges are giving out scholarhips to get those EH students into their program. They aren't doing this in a vacuum, with video analysis done by Tom who gives the thumb up or down on a swing. They obviously like what they see in real games, i.e., batting average, power, etc. If these players had no "adjustability" they would obviously exhibit low batting average and high strikeouts, properties that are inconsistent with a scholarship offer. So obviously they have "adjustability" or else they wouldn't be successful in games.


u cant hold on to the bat and turn and have adjustibility from torso tilt,,the hands play a part..i hear hulk hogans batspeed is 90mph..


again you can have great bat speed and still stink..ever hear the old saying just keep the ball off his bat?
the same CRUD can be said about nymans "stoplight",,just because ***** says this,,is it true?
turn like hell and good luck on those outside pitches
-JJA

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wogdoggy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wogdoggy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jja:
wogdoggy,

These arguments have been hashed over and over so there is no point doing it again. I am surprised, however, you can argue that bat speed "doesn't mean anything" as clearly power is the #1 item on every coaches wish list. Bat speed is clearly extremely important. Everybody wants a powerful swing, and power is generated from bat speed.

Finally, I'll just point out that the colleges are giving out scholarhips to get those EH students into their program. They aren't doing this in a vacuum, with video analysis done by Tom who gives the thumb up or down on a swing. They obviously like what they see in real games, i.e., batting average, power, etc. If these players had no "adjustability" they would obviously exhibit low batting average and high strikeouts, properties that are inconsistent with a scholarship offer. So obviously they have "adjustability" or else they wouldn't be successful in games.


u cant hold on to the bat and turn and have adjustibility from torso tilt,,the hands play a part..i hear hulk hogans batspeed is 90mph..


again you can have great bat speed and still stink..ever hear the old saying just keep the ball off his bat?
the same CRUD can be said about nymans "stoplight",,just because ***** says this,,is it true?
turn like hell and good luck on those outside pitches

wogdoggy,

Sure, Hulk Hogan could have a 90 mph swing and his batting average might be well below 0.100. Who would give him a baseball scholarship? Nobody of course. No one has ever said that bat speed is everything, but it certainly a very important factor in evaluating players as any scout will tell you. Everyone wants power. That's obvious.

The "adjustability" as I think you define it allows you to get the bat on the ball as you put it earlier. If Steve E students are getting scholarships, then by definition they must have "adjustability" of some sort. You don't get scholarships hitting 0.100. The HI guys can speculate there is no "adjustability" but in practice there obviously is or else these kids wouldn't be hitting 0.300-.400+ with power as well. Making blanket statements that a method can't do something is silly when there is lots of evidence to the contrary. The better question is how those methods achieve these excellent results in practice in spite of what you perceive as flaws.

-JJA

quote:

again you can have great bat speed and still stink

Yes, but you can't have a great swing without bat speed.

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
wogdoggy,

Sure, Hulk Hogan could have a 90 mph swing and his batting average might be well below 0.100. Who would give him a baseball scholarship? Nobody of course. No one has ever said that bat speed is everything, but it certainly a very important factor in evaluating players as any scout will tell you. Everyone wants power. That's obvious.

The "adjustability" as I think you define it allows you to get the bat on the ball as you put it earlier. If Steve E students are getting scholarships, then by definition they must have "adjustability" of some sort. You don't get scholarships hitting 0.100. The HI guys can speculate there is no "adjustability" but in practice there obviously is or else these kids wouldn't be hitting 0.300-.400+ with power as well. Making blanket statements that a method can't do something is silly when there is lots of evidence to the contrary. The better question is how those methods achieve these excellent results in practice in spite of what you perceive as flaws.

-JJA

JJA,

I'll give you one example of a great High School Hitter and a very good College hitter, but who is struggling in Minor League ball. Isaiah Howes who played for The University of Louisville. He is struggling with the 97, 98mph fastball and the higher velocity breaking pitches. Yes, I know most hitters do, but the very good ones can adjust because they have adjustability built into their swings. The reason those guys sometimes struggle in the beginning is because they haven't seen that good Pitching day in and day out. He will have to change his swing to be successful at that level. The earlier they learn to do the right things, the quicker they will move on.

powertoallfields, will they have to change their swing or change their reaction time? In saying this, the ability to practice specifics in the swing will enable one to gain the improvements. Also, say John is hitting .400 (any level) and has the ability to make it to the bigs. How can we sit here and say that John doesn't have a MLB swing. How are we to judge him. As you stated, no one walks up to the 97 mph heater and dominates it. Could you then also make the scenerio that once John changes that swing, he might not be able to hit the 92 mph heater since he is no longer doing what made him successful?

quote:

Finally, I'll just point out that the colleges are giving out scholarhips to get those EH students into their program.

JJA, since you keep saying this, I must ask you again....Are you including College baseball programs in your statement?

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
powertoallfields, will they have to change their swing or change their reaction time? In saying this, the ability to practice specifics in the swing will enable one to gain the improvements. Also, say John is hitting .400 (any level) and has the ability to make it to the bigs. How can we sit here and say that John doesn't have a MLB swing. How are we to judge him. As you stated, no one walks up to the 97 mph heater and dominates it. Could you then also make the scenerio that once John changes that swing, he might not be able to hit the 92 mph heater since he is no longer doing what made him successful?

Coach,

I was refering to Isaiah. I don't know John, so I couldn't judge that one. I saw the flaws in Isaiah's swing in the College World Series last year. He is a hard worker and if given the right instruction he will make it work.

Coach,

I'll also give you an example of the other type hitter I was refering to, Ben Revere. He had the teachings of John Cohen type of mechanics and he adapted very quickly. There are swings that can make it in High School and College, but just can't do it in the Big Leagues. Some of those types of players can even do fairly well in Minor League baseball, but they can't handle the best of the best.

Smart hitters have a tendency to wait for the best pitches to hit.

Example #1 : Batter can't catch up to fast ball so he waits for the off speed pitch.

Example #2 : Batter has trouble hitting breaking stuff so he looks fast ball.

Example #3 : Batter has trouble hitting breaking stuff and can't catch up to the fast ball so he bunts.

Example #4 : Batter with two strikes chokes up on bat and crowds plate.

Pronk,

You know richard's personality better than most on this site, I would imagine. If you say that you took the post copied below to be an actual offer of help and not a slap then you are either INCREDIBLY naive or simply not being honest. You are a grown man. There's simly no reason to come on this board and blindly defend someone of his ilk.

If you agree with richard and want to be his disciple, do so at your son's risk, but you will look less silly and gullible if you don't go out of your way to defend his lack of character and manners.



Mr. Stock....Need Help With Your Son's Swing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just let me know.

Compare his rear hip action to all the greats.

It ain't right.

That tilt HAS to go.

But, first you'll have to denounce the narcissist.

This is a sincere offer.

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
wogdoggy,

Sure, Hulk Hogan could have a 90 mph swing and his batting average might be well below 0.100. Who would give him a baseball scholarship? Nobody of course. No one has ever said that bat speed is everything, but it certainly a very important factor in evaluating players as any scout will tell you. Everyone wants power. That's obvious.

The "adjustability" as I think you define it allows you to get the bat on the ball as you put it earlier. If Steve E students are getting scholarships, then by definition they must have "adjustability" of some sort. You don't get scholarships hitting 0.100. The HI guys can speculate there is no "adjustability" but in practice there obviously is or else these kids wouldn't be hitting 0.300-.400+ with power as well. Making blanket statements that a method can't do something is silly when there is lots of evidence to the contrary. The better question is how those methods achieve these excellent results in practice in spite of what you perceive as flaws.

-JJA

jja its nothing against steve or richard etc...its about theory ...after hearing about "pcr" and "tip and rip" I decided that the professional baseball swing more resembles a golf swing.I believe bhut creates loft on the ball.. and when you tell somebody the hands just hold the bat you rob thier athletism.I believe in seperation of the lower and upper body with stretch versus a turned connection.Donny swingbuster started making more sense to me all the time...post after post. we talked about the other concept and why it wouldnt work.he was always a gentlemen to me EVEN though i did my share of railing on him.he had nothing to gain or lose but always took the time.. d mac also impressed me with this e mail


Here are some guys who tip the bat. One thing I have noticed is that not all major leaguers tip the bat, but every one of them that does hits with power......every one of them. Something to think about.

Doug.

wogdoggy,

If you're getting good results with yourself and/or your students using Donny's stuff, that's great, honestly. The most important outcome is to make the game more fun for those who play it, and if his stuff is working for you over other methods, that's great.

My point as you can probably tell is that torque isn't what is happening. You can manipulate the bat using your hands and not require torque. If you want to say you're manipulating the bat with your hands, fine. But when people go around saying that torque contributes 50% of bat speed, that it's what separates good players from bad, well, that's simply wrong and I'm going to challenge anyone who says it. I don't like bad information being fed to people who haven't been on boards like this very long. If people want to describe it as something else, I'll go away. And they should, because it isn't torque. That's all I'm getting at.

-JJA

wogdoggy,

I agree with you here and it is pretty much the conclusion that I came to. As CoachB25 says a lot on here, Richard was a huge promoter of PCR and was as passionate as he is now about BHT or "handle torque". You can go back and read the "short to zone and long through zone" thread and see for yourself. He was "Linear" at the time. Do I think Richard is sincere in helping kids learn to hit? YES! He parted with the information about "handle torque" that finally got it for me and in PMs was very cordial. Whether anyone wants to believe that what Richard has to offer is worth it's salt is totally up to the individual, but I do believe he is sincere. Tactful.....uhhh....no, but passionate and sincere, no doubt in my mind. I liked the way Swingbuster and now Tom present the concept and keep their cool when being challenged. I wish Richard could have that same presence, but he is who he is and I doubt that will change. I think CoachB25 does an excellent job of promoting PCR and does it with class and loyalty to his friend and I can find nothing wrong with either of those traits. There is no doubt that PCR has and is developing very good High School players and College players. The only thing in question to me is can it work at the MLB level and if and or when they have an example there, all of this will be for naught, because it will be proven that both mechanics work. Until then, the tennis match with an occassional shouting match will continue.

If I might, I'd like to clear up a few things. First, yes, Richard and I aren't friends. I'd leave him alone if I could. I find myself in positions where I have to speak up and/or on this board take an action. Each time he has been removed, I believe he himself knew he'd get booted and yet, made a post that resulted in that action. Nuff on that other than I rarely give him a thought otherwise. I do check out his son's progress but more as a fan than someone looking for negativity.

Regrading PCR, I try my best to avoid promoting any philosophy. I will defend Steve when people made assertions that aren't true. I will continue to do so. I'd do the same with you if you were my friend. BTW, some of the assertions, speaking as one who knows, are absolutely misleading and some are misguided. They obscure the basic tenants of PCR. I'll leave it at that.

Regarding various posters, I think it reprehensible that some posters on this site have felt the need to create multiple identities in order to win arguments and/or promote their cause. I've avoided calling them out but have sent several my opinions on this matter via pms. I find it interesting that many of these same individuals continue that practice.

Shawn, I am not Richard, I don't go around telling people "nonsense" all the time. I guarantee you he thinks he can help Robert Stock. So why would he word that any other way.

If Stock follows incompatible cues, he will not develop an effective MLB pattern.

Incompatible cues would include most PCR favorites.

he should avoid things like:

Bend way over, stay down, turn like heck, keep front foot closed,hit with back shoulder,lots of lead arm/shoulder tension, just hang on to bat.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
If Stock follows incompatible cues, he will not develop an effective MLB pattern.

Incompatible cues would include most PCR favorites.

he should avoid things like:

Bend way over, stay down, turn like heck, keep front foot closed,hit with back shoulder,lots of lead arm/shoulder tension, just hang on to bat.

And so you see, it is impossible to stay out of these discussion. I'll be back with some clips. YHF would now suggest that I'm pushing my agenda and yet, wouldn't claim the same for Tom. Ironic!

“Bend way over,”

PCR (Posture Connection and Rotation) followers refers to this as Posture or Tilt. We wouldn’t let the truth get in the way but the phrase is to tilt at the pelvis and have a “sense of having your butt stick out.” Of course Tom that is "way over." (Per his quote above)



Note, this is taken off of a site consider to be pro PCR and so, I’d suggest that this “tilt” is exactly what is preached in PCR.

“stay down, turn like heck”

Known in PCR terms as Rotations. Of course, we all know that MLB players not only don’t rotate, if the do, they do it slowly. (Per Tom’s Quote)



I believe this swing demonstrates a lot of what would be expected out of connection and rotation.

“keep front foot closed”

A concept that not only goes to PCR, but also Lau and a few others. I believe in The Art of Hitting .300, Lau mentioned this as a goal but also mentioned that it was impossible to achieve.

NOTE THE PREVIOUS VIDEO AT CONTACT AND THAT FRONT FOOT!!!

“hit with back shoulder”

First, to be clear, Tom believes that the shoulders are bypassed totally.



If you looked at the parallel lines of this photo, it is very easy to see how such a phrase is intended. It is no better nor worse than many other cues. Any cue needs to have an explanation of intent. Those on Steve’s site, not only see video to demonstrate this concept, they also have video of it being done incorrectly. A kind of “working your way through the process” video support library on the shoulders.

“lots of lead arm/shoulder tension”

Regarding this theory on “bypass” and shoulders. Tom et. al. also suggest that the scapula complex is also bypassed.



I just can’t figure out what the wrinkles in Guerrero’s shirt represent!

The lead arm tension is referred to as a “box.”



Tom disregards the “box." You be the judge based upon what you see in video. I’m betting that there is tension in that. Now, they don’t like the word “tension” but they fall all over themselves with “torque.” Note, the “box” isn’t supposed to be rigid. It moves during the swing process. If you froze this video at certain spots, you’d see a box configuration. At others, you'd see a Parallelogram. Naturally, you’d also have that point in the swing prior to contact where the unhinging occurs. Nothing contradictory to PCR!



“just hang on to bat”

Certainly what we’d expect is that all MLB players quote certain Mantras as they hit. Tip and Rip, maintain separation, create that triangle, hands to the ball etc. Or just maybe, when they hit, they “clear the mechanism,” as one poster cites in his signature and just hang on to the bat and swing. Just a guess! NO VIDEO REQUIRED!

FYI, I'M NOT TRYING TO PROMOTE PCR WITH THIS POST. I am refuting some of Tom's statements. I suppose YHF would suggest that I've given up my rights to do so because I moderate this forum. I do hope it is OK to point out misrepresentations.

quote:

Originally posted by Pronk:
Shawn, I am not Richard, I don't go around telling people "nonsense" all the time. I guarantee you he thinks he can help Robert Stock. So why would he word that any other way.

Pronk,

I didn't say he didn't believe he could help, he's delusional. It's like the crazy guy with the sign that says "The End is Near". He believes it, but he can't show any evidence. And please don't say the evidence is in the video. richard himself was using the exact same video to prove the opposite about 1 1/2 yrs ago. Let him prove it by showing someone develop some RESULTS.

My point, which I'm sure you got, is not that richard doesn't beleive it but that you Know it was intended as a slap, yet you say you don't beleive that to be the case. Again, extremely naive or untruthful. Your choice. Regardless, it seems rather sad that you jump to defend an a@@h*** when someone calls him out for boorish behavior.

CoachB25, is a moderator and has opinions on hitting philosophy......IMO, nothing wrong with that.....He has a track record, is proud of it, should be, and deserves to speak his opinion as much as anyone else on here......I don't think he participates enough, but, that's just my opinion.....

We look at video and see different things.....I like to hear what everyone thinks they see in the video.....I don't think anyone is entirely right or entirely wrong......I have contended that MLB hitters don't all swing alike.......Aaron's swing is not the same as Dunn's swing on prety much the same low pitch location....We've seen the video over and over........The swings are different......Why they are different and what the differences are, is in the eye of the beholder....But, the swings are different....And, I've never studied Ichiro's swing, but, by most all accounts, his swing is different than most other MLB hitters......

I will say it again.........Not all MLB hitters swing alike.......There are differences in the swings of MLB hitters........

Now, the battle between Richard and Steve has been on-going for a long time.....It'll probably never stop.....Others have gotten dragged into the fray.....The torque disagreement will probably always be a sideshow.......There is alot of history to keep it all going.......

As for who's right and who's wrong?......Nobody is entirely right, they never are!

As for multiple identities on this board....Why not say who they are?

Just a thought on keeping the front foot closed. I read a few posts back that Lau suggested it as a goal and that is was impossible to acheive. Many years ago I told my youngest son that he needed to keep that front foot closed as he usually pointed it to the pitcher (he was in LL). A few weeks later I heard of an older kid on the HS team (that was a lefty also) was up to bat. This kid did keep his front foot closed and when his hips opened up, the spectators said you could hear the kids tendons/ligaments ripping in his front knee. That kid was out and never played baseball again. When I heard about how this kid ripped his knee up, brilliant dad that I am, I made a point to my youngest to open up that front foot and don't worry about keeping it closed. Ouch!

Tim Robertson

Tim R, take a look at all of the video or photos above. That is what is meant.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Tim R, take a look at all of the video or photos above. That is what is meant.

Coach,

All of the guys feet look to be at 45 degrees to me. Is that what is meant? Not to let it fly open? As far as Vlad goes, I think the wrinkles in his shirt are from negative move upper body and positive move lower body (opening) is that what's happening in your opinion?

I know you've said you can't say much on here about the specifics of PCR, but what about inviting Steve on here for a Q & A sometime? It may even help his business if he can explain his position on here. Just a thought. It makes it tough when you only get one side of the equation. I'm not speaking just for myself, I'm looking at it from a person's perspective of not having an opinion in the first place, but looking for answers. I would kind of consider it free advertising to some extent.

Powertoallfields,

Steve E has a Public forum that anyone can sign up for and ask questions. That's precisely the reason he has a public forum. It's especially meant for the person you described, someone not having an opinion in the first place, but looking for answers.

As for coming here, I think few would argue that it would be particularly productive use of his time. He's better off servicing his current customers than re-hashing old arguments with the same people over and over again. For the new folks looking for answers, his web site is easy to find.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Tim R, take a look at all of the video or photos above. That is what is meant.

Coach,

All of the guys feet look to be at 45 degrees to me. Is that what is meant? Not to let it fly open? As far as Vlad goes, I think the wrinkles in his shirt are from negative move upper body and positive move lower body (opening) is that what's happening in your opinion?

I know you've said you can't say much on here about the specifics of PCR, but what about inviting Steve on here for a Q & A sometime? It may even help his business if he can explain his position on here. Just a thought. It makes it tough when you only get one side of the equation. I'm not speaking just for myself, I'm looking at it from a person's perspective of not having an opinion in the first place, but looking for answers. I would kind of consider it free advertising to some extent.

Again, some of those video postings are from a website that is supportive of Steve's ideas. In referencing that front foot, I think the idea of front foot closed and the reality that it will rotate some either in foot plant OR as the rotation of the hip and shoulder complex initiate is the reality. BTW, I say Steve E but to make it clear, I posted that as an observation to make clear that what was presented by others as "what Steve teaches" and the reality are different. I'd also like to point out that many posters here have my "stuff" in the form of handouts. In those handouts, you'd see the same interpretation as those videos. ie. front toe closed is the intent and is also impossible.

To make clear, I think that the point about researching all of the various ideas and then coming to one's own conclusions is EXACTLY WHAT WE SHOULD ALL DO. Then, when you find the one that fits the bill for you, get after it. In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best assit for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!

Coach and JJA,

I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if someone went to buy a house they would already have an idea of what area they want to live in, what type of house, how many bedrooms, possibly a preferred builder whose work they have seen before. IMO, it would be a waste of time to go look at every house on the market before deciding which one you want to buy. Heck, by the time you saw them all, you may just be able to move into the nursing home.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Coach and JJA,

I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"

take a kids hands away and ruin his athletiscm.my opinion,, the hands just dont hold the bat,,the HANDS set the tilt..not the tilt setting the swing path,,dead hands equal dead end..no running start no opposite field power.its two completely different theories..


COACH B 25 says
In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best asset for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!


just a lil biased huh?

You make a common sense request. However, I guess the difference would be between one's advocation and one's vocation. (I stole that off of Scott S. from a argument he was in last week and so, I wanted to note that I'm not that smart.) I also understand that with all of the various philosophies out there, these message boards serve in the recruitment process like it or not. Take HI for example, their followers post all of that video which display "Properties" of HI. Appealing to some no doubt. Philosophies and their success also depend upon the number of success stories generated. After all, saccharine was touted to be a great sweetener and then it was discovered to be a carcinogen.

Well, I have gone too long again. Here is the shame of it all. Say we believe in x's philosophy. If x's philosophy is sound, I don't have to attack any one else's philosophy. On this board, we have several members that can't make a post, support their argument and leave it at that. They have to also engage in an attack. JMHO!

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Coach and JJA,

I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"

take a kids hands away and ruin his athletiscm.my opinion,, the hands just dont hold the bat,,the HANDS set the tilt..not the tilt setting the swing path,,dead hands equal dead end..no running start no opposite field power.its two completely different theories..


COACH B 25 says
In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best assit for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!


just a lil biased huh?

OK, if HI is your cup of tea, go there and get prepared for a grand welcoming and all of the baseball discussion you can stand.

Powertoallfields,

First of all, it's important to note that "handle torque" isn't an Englishbey vs Richard debate. Disagreeing with handle torque doesn't mean you're agreeing with Englishbey and his hitting philosophy. It's Richard vs the physics of what is happening in the baseball swing. Believe it or not, you can still be a "hands" guy without believing in handle torque. And the physics is clear. Handle torque is not a significant contributor to swing speed.

So what is that "bat blur" Richard sees if isn't caused by handle torque? There is a (correct) answer that doesn't require use of the term handle torque.

Given that this is the core "finding" of Richard, as the entire foundation of HI is based on handle torque, "bat blur" and "forearm swivel" for now I prefer not to answer. Some of the HI guys led by their fearless leader like to bash everyone, myself included, with lots of insults. Sorry, but I'm not ready at this point to help out people like that. I've given out one hint on BBF already, and I'll give one more hint here: there is stuff in this thread that should make the answer obvious.

-JJA

Not saying that I agree that the front foot should stay closed but it sure looks like Pujols can do it.


I cringe everytime I see this.




OR this one.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
Not saying that I agree that the front foot should stay closed but it sure looks like Pujols can do it.


I cringe everytime I see this.





Looks like 45 degrees to me. The picture is shot from a slight angle in the front. Look at his knee though, it's pointing straight at the Pitcher. Personally, I don't think the foot is all that important as long as it doesn't turn past straight toward the Pitcher and then I think you lose power. Dick Mills teaches to open the front foot to 45 degrees when pitching to, but some Pitchers do and some Pitchers don't, many point it directly at the target. I think the knees are the important part, but it's just my opinion.


OR this one.

Are you referring to the 2nd pic as being shot from an angle?


Pujols is straight on and his foot is even starting to roll over on it's side.I have seen several pics of him doing this and it looks painfull.

tfox,and what you'll see if the pictures were video, is that they will progress in a lot of cases to a 45 degree appearance. However, the goal is to maintain as long as possible. That front side will still have to get through.

Coach,in most cases,I agree but check out this pic,he is finishing his swing.OUCH.


http://www.collectiblesofthegame.com/product.php?produc...18147&cat=259&page=1



http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Ex...es/AlbertPujols.html


This actually looks like something that might shorten his carrer.

I am not trying to argue,I actually agree but Pujols is an exception to the rule it seems,most of the time.

He doesn't seem to be trying to keep the front foot closed..........

quote:

Regarding this theory on “bypass” and shoulders. Tom et. al. also suggest that the scapula complex is also bypassed.

Actually, I think Tom believes the scapula does get loaded.....

I believe arm action uses the scapula as a linkage....

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
Coach,in most cases,I agree but check out this pic,he is finishing his swing.OUCH.


http://www.collectiblesofthegame.com/product.php?produc...18147&cat=259&page=1



http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Ex...es/AlbertPujols.html


This actually looks like something that might shorten his carrer.

Yes, he and Mauer both look scary as far as the torque that must be on that front knee, because it is pointing at the Pitcher on all shots.

Did you look at the links? He actually has some where the ankle is rolling over,not only the knee is being abused but so is that ankle.The knee is much worse though.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
Did you look at the links? He actually has some where the ankle is rolling over,not only the knee is being abused but so is that ankle.The knee is much worse though.

I hadn't looked at them until you said something. WOW! He's the biggest contortionists I've ever seen. He can hit some nasty pitches and still hit them hard. He sits, he tilts, he pulls his arms around, it's crazy. Must be another learned skill that Latin players have. Maybe they have lots of bad Pitchers down there, lol.

I think his front foot position is kind of dictated on where the pitch is and whether he has timed the pitch right or not. I think the roll over is when he is out in front a little. He has a little bit of a dive front to back late in his swing. He adjusts a lot of body parts to get to some pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
Did you look at the links? He actually has some where the ankle is rolling over,not only the knee is being abused but so is that ankle.The knee is much worse though.

I hadn't looked at them until you said something. WOW! He's the biggest contortionists I've ever seen. He can hit some nasty pitches and still hit them hard. He sits, he tilts, he pulls his arms around, it's crazy. Must be another learned skill that Latin players have. Maybe they have lots of bad Pitchers down there, lol.

I think his front foot position is kind of dictated on where the pitch is and whether he has timed the pitch right or not. I think the roll over is when he is out in front a little. He has a little bit of a dive front to back late in his swing. He adjusts a lot of body parts to get to some pitches.

Him being built like a brick ---- house has something to do with being able to hit all those nasty pitches hard but so does his mechanics.

Being able to contort and adjust are something that I would think most great hitters would have in common but I can't see many doing what he does with his front foot being good for staying healthy.


WOW,this thread has taken some detours.

B25 is a moderator on koolaid when it comes to hitting. he is just a mouthpiece for Steve E, unfortunately, who seems unable to exhibit independent thinking in this particular area of hitting mechanics.

He is just parroting the company line and apparently not taking hacks himself or observing more objectively what sort of trajectories are resulting from the various mechanical descriptions and cues he is describing.

You can look at Richard/Teacherman's experience in a number of ways.

The B25/Steve E way is, "the guy's a kook who jumps from one thing to another, what's next ?"

The way I "see it", Richard has seen the light which is the MLB pattern and how it is incompatible with and better than the PCR pattern for high level baseball.

You are going to have to use independent thought and take a risk and make up your own mind about this, OR you can just compartmentalize and turn the worry over to the guru and just be the blind follower/mouthpiece.

This doesn't mean you are a bad person, just giving up responsibility and accountability in one slice of your mind. That is a choice, however, and it will have consequences which may have to be considered.

As is well described now in golf by Hardy, the different swing patterns are incompatible and,even though based on the same underlying physics/biomechanics model, there are still swing possibilities that will conform to very different cues/learning.

In MLB, the PCR pattern will not work.

In golf, the mlb like pattern (2 plane) and the PCR like pattern (1 plane) can both work, not in MLB. As noted first by Lau SR, they all look the same at front foot down. They don't fly open/etc.

NOw one attempt at mind control is the attempt to say Richard is crazy because he talks about "bypassing shoulders" which is "scientifically impossible". That was addressed well here in the old separation thread by him and bluedog after richard was dismissed (moderator on koolaid), but of course B25 has forgotten that as part of his memory lapse related to his mind control/compartmentalization that comes from blindly following the PCR guru and not using his own independent thought.

As Hardy says in golf, swing instructors can promote one pattern or the other by telling you either:

"start the shoulders turning from the top" (1 plane sequence/pattern)

OR

" whatever you do, do NOT start turning the shoulders from the top" (2 plane pattern).

Steve E is intentionally mixing physics and cues here to discredit Richard and B25 is just following as a mouthpiece.

Before this was the ridiculous discounting of "hand torque" as impossible because the hands don't have big muscles. You need to experiment ans see whether you belive in handle torque or not, BUT it is by no means "scientifically impossible".

Another "set up the flawed strawman, then knock it down".

Works great in cults, not so much in learning swing patterns.

B25 is just spouting the party line here.

If you want to understand how to sort this out, you need the perspectyive of how BOTH patterns work which is what Richard has and is worth getting, even if you can't avoid some conflict.

Tom, good try. Notice that Tom uses one of the key tatics of "refuters" and comes with personal attacks. He suggest that I am incapable of thinking on my own and thus suggest his superiority.

Of course we all noticed that he didn't address my response earlier where I took each of his claims and presented evidence demonstrating discrediting his prior post. IN STEAD, HE ATTEMPTS TO DIVERT MEMBER'S ATTENTION WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACK.

Tom, here is the difference. I'm actually a coach. I put this "stuff" into practice, have students, have players and have credentials. You have, well Tom to be blunt, you've never done anything other than criticize others who are actually doing it hands on. I do hope this, you have a young man that is now in serious jeapordy with his high school career. You need to step up to that responsibility now. I'll be waiting for the results. Tom, do the right thing! BTW, I've offered to do so when he comes to my area. I will do the right thing. STEP UP TOM.

B25-

based on others comments about other aspects of your knowledge, I suspect you know a lot and have a lot to offer, that is why I assume you must be on koolaid to be so off the mark on hitting mechanics to the point of just rehashing the old PCR dogma.

Compartmentalization.

everybody does it.


deal with it.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
Coach and JJA,

I respect what you guys are saying and I could see why Steve wouldn't want to come on here and have to listen to all the garbage. I'm just saying most people have at least some idea of what a swing is and may not need to figure the whole thing from top to bottom. For me personally, I want to know what the difference is between a top high school swing and a MLB swing. What makes them different? I have Epstein's stuff and Cohen's stuff and agree with what they have to say and teach and I think that is what it takes to be a good High School and College hitter, maybe even a MLB hitter. Until I understood what Richard was saying, I was sure that was all there was to it, but now when I see slow motion video of the motion of the bat head I believe there is something else going on. If someone who uses Mr. Englishbey's teachings has an idea of what is making that blurr other than "handle torque" I'd just like to know their opinion, not just "IT"S NOT HANDLE TORQUE!!!"

take a kids hands away and ruin his athletiscm.my opinion,, the hands just dont hold the bat,,the HANDS set the tilt..not the tilt setting the swing path,,dead hands equal dead end..no running start no opposite field power.its two completely different theories..


COACH B 25 says
In any theory/philosophy, you have to be committed to it. I'd suggest that if you "sway in the wind" you'll never commit and so, you won't serve as the best assit for your child. If HI is your cup of tea, go there and learn all you want. If Steve E is your cup of tea, dig in because you'll get more than you can digest. The video library alone would take weeks to view. Same with any other option. JMHO!


just a lil biased huh?

OK, if HI is your cup of tea, go there and get prepared for a grand welcoming and all of the baseball discussion you can stand.

heres a real shocker *I DONT CARE FOR RICHARD*Imagine that.... BUT i think d mac and swingbuster had the mlb swing 'model'..unfortunately they werent able to teach it correctly to richard,BUT i do think Richard knows what DOESNT work...and I'll leave it at that..

wogdoggy,

I'm not aware of anyone who has ever disagreed with DMac about "Tip and Rip". It's clear lots of pros do it, and there is no doubt it can help higher level hitters. As an aside, my 14 year old son is learning some bat tipping right now as his core swing is now pretty strong and the bat tipping is helping his rhythm and power.

The issue has always been whether bat tipping is a skill to teach young ones. This is where Doug and I disagreed. The vast majority of kids I teach, basically 100%, go after the ball with their hands. Virtually none, and this includes some pretty high level players, know how to rotate their hips fully, get a proper sequencing of the upper and lower body, etc. For virtually all of these kids, bat tipping is the least of their needs. Doug was seeing lots of high level players, I'm sure all of whom knew how to rotate properly. At this stage, sure, tip and rip makes a lot of sense. But for the beginning players, it doesn't make any sense at all.

-JJA

quote:

But for the beginning players, it doesn't make any sense at all.

It makes alot of sense to some people.......

quote:

The vast majority of kids I teach, basically 100%, go after the ball with their hands.

Good....If they learn tip and rip and the right arm action along with separation, all they need to do is learn some timing and they're on the way........

"Two-plane swinging" and "how to rotate" are different body movement patterns, so pick one....

Bluedog,

You're clearly teaching players at a lot higher level than most of us are. I'll post a clip of a typical player that I get and you tell me that he/she needs to tip and rip and the right arm action. You clearly don't teach typical little leaguers or FPers.

-JJA

N$man Jr-

The reason you and bbscout disagreed is that he knew what he was talking about and you do not have a clue.

OK Bluedog,

Here is a girl I got at the beginning of practice a couple of years ago.



Now look at this swing and tell me that she needs tip and rip, separation, and the right arm action. If you notice, she's using her hands to go to the ball. No "dead hands" here.

Tom, if and when you ever get to a field, this is what you're going to have to deal with. I'm looking forward to having you help players like this succeed.

-JJA

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
OK Bluedog,

Here is a girl I got at the beginning of practice a couple of years ago.



Now look at this swing and tell me that she needs tip and rip, separation, and the right arm action. If you notice, she's using her hands to go to the ball. No "dead hands" here.

Tom, if and when you ever get to a field, this is what you're going to have to deal with. I'm looking forward to having you help players like this succeed.

-JJA

Good video of what teaching is all about.Atleast she is actually turning the hips,imo,a good sign.I actually see alot of potential there.

How's she doing now?

She's doing great. I got her again this year (she was on another team last year) and she is a hugely improved player. Still lots of bat drag which is what I'm working with her now on, but a good solid contact hitter against all but the toughest pitchers. Too much drag to hit the behomeths, but she's improving. Great attitude, great girl, fun girl. In that video you saw, she was rated around 95th out of 110 girls that year, this year in the mid-50's out of around 107.

quote:

BUT i think d mac and swingbuster had the mlb swing 'model'.

"BUT i do think Richard knows what DOESNT work"



I agree! With a qualifier of FOR MLB.

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
OK Bluedog,

Here is a girl I got at the beginning of practice a couple of years ago.



Now look at this swing and tell me that she needs tip and rip, separation, and the right arm action. If you notice, she's using her hands to go to the ball. No "dead hands" here.

Tom, if and when you ever get to a field, this is what you're going to have to deal with. I'm looking forward to having you help players like this succeed.

-JJA

Honestly, I think she has a lot of the things right in this clip. It looks like she needs some work on her strength, maybe some push-ups and some griping exercises, but the swing isn't really too far off, IMO. I would love to work with her, if she wanted to learn.

The issue has always been whether bat tipping is a skill to teach young ones. This is where Doug and I disagreed. The vast majority of kids I teach, basically 100%, go after the ball with their hands. Virtually none, and this includes some pretty high level players, know how to rotate their hips fully, get a proper sequencing of the upper and lower body, etc. For virtually all of these kids, bat tipping is the least of their needs. Doug was seeing lots of high level players, I'm sure all of whom knew how to rotate properly. At this stage, sure, tip and rip makes a lot of sense. But for the beginning players, it doesn't make any sense at all.

-JJA



I would agree, unless it HELPS them use their hips correctly, which is the case in some.

Let's all face it, some people will never be able to hit no matter what mechanics they use or what they are taught. It's no different than any other thing that is taught, some just can't learn and some don't want to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
The issue has always been whether bat tipping is a skill to teach young ones. This is where Doug and I disagreed. The vast majority of kids I teach, basically 100%, go after the ball with their hands. Virtually none, and this includes some pretty high level players, know how to rotate their hips fully, get a proper sequencing of the upper and lower body, etc. For virtually all of these kids, bat tipping is the least of their needs. Doug was seeing lots of high level players, I'm sure all of whom knew how to rotate properly. At this stage, sure, tip and rip makes a lot of sense. But for the beginning players, it doesn't make any sense at all.

-JJA



I would agree, unless it HELPS them use their hips correctly, which is the case in some.

Let's all face it, some people will never be able to hit no matter what mechanics they use or what they are taught. It's no different than any other thing that is taught, some just can't learn and some don't want to learn.

This is why I say,let the student,be the teacher.

I have 2 kids and I have to treat each one as individuals with what I say.Both are extremely athletic.My daughter just takes everything you say literally and tries to do it to the tee.Then she is thinking about the mechanics and not hitting the ball and then everything gets out of sequence.

Son is just the opposite.

quote:

Now look at this swing and tell me that she needs tip and rip, separation, and the right arm action.

JJA, Tom has been railing about arm action for years, now........I used to argue with him because I had no idea what he was talking about....Well, now I do know what he was saying.......And, I now realize he is right...

You say the player in the video is going at the ball with her hands....I say, she is going at the ball with improper arm action.....

You will, I'm sure, teach her to connect to the shoulders and rotate......

I would teach her proper arm action.....And, yes, I would teach her to two-plane swing.......

One big difference in what I would do with her is that I would teach her throwing arm action at the same time as hitting arm action, since I believe the arm actions are the same........We would throw awhile, then hit awhile.......Throw awhile, then hit awhile.......Contrary to what you might want to believe, and you certainly may wish to ignore this, but that is how I teach young players.......

I learned to do this from Tom.....Since I learned this, I have become a much better teacher, IMO....

What bothers me is, yourself and some others will never give Tom credit for what he knows about teaching the swing.....From information I have about Tom, I would never accuse him of not working with players hands-on.....

Bluedog,

I hope you're right. It would be awfully pathetic to spend years on the internet writing pages and pages and pages of information on baseball and yet never teach a single person. It sounds like now maybe he is teaching some, but up until last year he admitted he didn't teach anyone. At least, he never disputed the claim he didn't teach anyone. With all of his knowledge, I hope he is finally putting it to good use.

No one here has any idea what I teach, so your speculation is groundless. Needless to say, anyone, no matter if you are an Epstein guy, Mankin, Hudgens, Lau, Peavy, anyone would realize that girl needs to use her body to hit. She does not need "tip and rip" at this stage of her development. That notion is ludicrous.

Finally, I don't argue with him because I "had no idea what he was talking about", but because he's wrong. I understand the issues of hands very well indeed. He can talk handle torque until he's blue in the face. There is zero evidence in support of that position. If he would like to get off that position, and just say he's a hands guy, I'll get off his case. But as long as continues to promote positions that are scientific nonsense, I'll continue to give him a hard time. Eventually, he will revise his position as the evidence is piling up so high that it's getting downright embarrassing for him. The time is coming, and not very far off.

-JJA

quote:

.......but up until last year he admitted he didn't teach anyone.

JJA, I seriously thought you were better than this......You know your statement isn't true.....

I will say this to you and then I'm through with this....I will leave you to your antagonistic comments about me, Tom and whomever else you wish to ridicule.....

You're right, I don't know what you teach.....And, I no longer care......I'm convinced you only wish to ridicule Tom, Richard and anyone else who promotes two-plane swinging........

I'll leave you alone so that you can carry on with your agenda.......

quote:

No one here has any idea what I teach,.....

Your purpose for being here is not to discuss teaching hitting by your own admittance...Then, why are you here, JJA?

Bluedog,

I'm being totally honest. Over the years, this question has been repeatedly asked, and he has never said he has had any students. This goes back tons of years.

Now if has had them, great. I stand corrected and I'll happily apologize for my comments. Hopefully we can get this straight from the good Dr. How many students has he taught over the years? Even a rough number is fine. I'll just say that for all the years we've sparred back and forth, I've never heard an answer to this question. Again, if I'm wrong, and hopefully I am, I wholeheartedly apologize. Anyone who volunteers their time to help kids get better is to be admired even if I disagree with their hitting philosophy. So again, if I'm wrong, sorry about that Tom. I sincerely mean that.

-JJA

JJA-

Absolutely untrue and typical desperate misrepresentation.

I have publicly stated I have played and coached in college in woodbat and transition to metal bat era. Quit playing after freshman year to concentrate on another sport, but kept coaching

Since then I have coached off and on including fastpitch.

I can tell when something works and when it doesn't right away and I know what it looks like in person and on video.

However, as I have said, the internet is no substitute for hands on coaching with guaranteed access.

the internet is for guys like ***** who consider themselves "purveyors of information".

Trouble is that, just as in golf, if you do not apply the right filter at the right level, you just end up with lots of meaningless conflicting info.

The MLB pattern resembles overhand throw, up until a point and 2 plane golf.

It's separate upper and lower body programs that synch for stretch and fire.


It is not at all like PCR.

Keep doing your selective reading and misrepresentation. You'll still have your PCR buddies to hang out with.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
JJA-

Absolutely untrue and typical desperate misrepresentation.

No, it's not. Over the last few years you have given three different answers to the question about whether you work with hitters when asked directly. None have included an affirmative answer that you are applying your universal theory on hitting to any hitter in person as JJA has done with 50+ hitters over this same period of time. Tom, you know I have examples. I've seen JJA's work and it's very impressive.

quote:

I have publicly stated I have played and coached in college in woodbat and transition to metal bat era. Quit playing after freshman year to concentrate on another sport, but kept coaching

True as this is part of the bio you posted at s.e.t.p.r.o. many years back prior to you being fired as a moderator.

quote:

Trouble is that, just as in golf, if you do not apply the right filter at the right level, you just end up with lots of meaningless conflicting info.

I think you will find that many will agree with this and that they in fact apply it to your information, for better or worse.

Perhaps it would be easier if the question was once again asked of you, giving you a chance to provide a direct answer:

Tom, in the last two years, have you worked with any youth hitter in person either on a one on one basis or as a coach of a youth team at any level?

FOFOF -

Where you been.

Re-enforcements needed.

PCR hull breach imminent.

Red alert.

Round up the mouthpieces.

How many have you and Stevie locked in to non MLB mechanics in the last 2 years ?

It is indeed a tangled web.

I'm just passing through Tom. I won't be staying long. What peeked my interest was your comment that JJA was misrepresenting you/your position on your time coaching. It stood out to me, as i said, because it didn't really jive with the history of the question.

Sooo...

Perhaps it would be easier if the question was once again asked of you, giving you a chance to provide a direct answer:

Tom, in the last two years, have you worked with any youth hitter in person either on a one on one basis or as a coach of a youth team at any level?

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
FOFOF -

Where you been.

Re-enforcements needed.

PCR hull breach imminent.

Red alert.

Round up the mouthpieces.

How many have you and Stevie locked in to non MLB mechanics in the last 2 years ?

It is indeed a tangled web.

"Tom, in the last two years, have you worked with any youth hitter in person either on a one on one basis or as a coach of a youth team at any level?"

I would point out that Bluedog also has not answered this question, and does not respond to challenges on this very point.

fofofo/mouthpiece #3 -

Yes.

BB-

I'm not misrepresenting unless it's been "revised".

In any case you are not allowed to discuss it because it's a secret.

If something does not work, I agree it's better to keep it secret and call it "intellectual property".

Right fofofo ?

Read Dixon.

Go to EH.com.

Look at video, but you can only see what Stevie tells you you can see.

Or N$man.

Watch out for N@man jr

Tom, how can they believe the kid in the video can't be helped tremendously, and immediatley, with a lesson in proper arm action?....Unless, of course, they don't know proper arm action....Could it be?

quote:

I would point out that Bluedog also has not answered this question, and does not respond to challenges on this very point.

BB, you also said:

quote:

If you don't wish to look at what Steve offers and/or knows, that's your choice.

Haven't been around long, I see......

Go back for some years and read....You've got some catching up to do....

bluedog - "Haven't been around long, I see......A newbie!!

Go back for some years and read....You got some catching up to do...."

Still avoiding the question, huh? I may be a newbie on this board, but I've already figured out who the pretenders are, and I'm familiar with Tom from other boards.

Tom - "I'm not misrepresenting unless it's been "revised"."

If you believe that, you really don't understand pcr.

quote:

If you believe that, you really don't understand pcr.

Yep, you've got alot of catching up to do....Start reading!

OK, been at the kids' games. Have missed much of this. We'll put an end to this now since both sides have fired warning shots over each other's bows. In the future, I'm going to ask that when we make contributions to various topics that we address the topic. Shots at either side will result in deleted posts.

Enough is enough! Let's talk hitting and what we see. Let's be sure to address those issues in posts. When it comes to attacks, you're time here will be short lived per the membership agreement.