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quote:
Originally posted by TCB1:
But Jimmy please don't say I misread; the words were there plain as day. And on a board where those of us who are not umpires, but are folks looking for clarification, maybe you could just address the point instead of parsing words and being, ohhhh I don't know,.....a little officious? Just sayin'......


You obviously misunderstood. My reference to "misreading" was your use of the word "ruling", not the reference to simultaneous, etc.

I don't parse words. Read my posts and you will see that my "rulings" and opinions are exacting and clear.

Yes, I know what you're "just sayin'". You're bringing an unwelcome element into the conversation. Insults are not necessary, and unless you've seen me work, thoughts on my "officiousness" are beyond your knowledge.

Thanks for your input, though.
Last edited by Jimmy03
TCB1,

I understand your problem with "simultaneously or immediately," but the rule continues with an interpretation:

"In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional." A staggering fielder does not have complete control of the ball yet. If he doesn't have control of himself, he doesn't have control of the ball. When the ball pops out of the glove after the collision with the wall, it is an unintentional and involuntary release and, by definition, not a catch.

FED is even clearer:

"The catch of a fly ball by a fielder is not completed until the continuing action of the catch is completed. A fielder who catches a ball and then runs into a wall or another player and drops the ball has not made a catch. A fielder, at full speed, who catches a ball and whose initial momentum carries him several more yards after which the ball drops from his glove has not made a catch."
Last edited by dash_riprock
Ok, Jimmy. You aren't an overly officious umpire. But next time, despite the fact that you feel I brought an unwelcome element, maybe you could just help me when I request clarification, and not be quite so dismissive. I was simply trying to learn something that I readily admitted I didn't know. Sorry to take up your time.
Here's one for you for over ruling with a dumba** umpire on the bases. High school summer ball at night. A pickoff was started between 2nd and 3rd. I took off towards 3rd to help out. But after only a few steps, the SS - who was 10 FEET 3rd base side of 2nd - took the throw. It was a very dusty diamond. The runner slides into the SS's legs, then the SS makes the tag a sec later. The bu calls him safe, as the tag was after the slide. (Runner is clearly out) What happened next is more unbelievable. The runner proceeds to notice he wasn't near the base, and with the SS's glove/ball on the runner the whole time, the runner goes around him and now slides into 2nd. The bu says "he's still safe". What would you do? I'll tell you what I did. I over ruled him as the mgr wanted to kill him. It calmed things down. I told the base ump to always, as in life, admit you blew it RIGHT AWAY, and call him out. The next thing is even MORE bizare. It was near the end of the game, the bu didn't show anger or disdain in any way. I got the equipment off for the next game of the D/H, and got ready to do the bases. I came back to the field and couldn't find my partner. Yeah - he left. Both coaches begged me to get the game going and just call pitches from behind pitcher as it was getting late. Bottom of first, hardest one hop smash to the pitcher I've ever seen. I start to move out of the way; the ball deflects off of the pitchers glove and into my temple. The ambulance lights in my face were really bright. (They were there near the field - it was a tourney on multi diamonds). Next time I'm going behind the plate ALWAYS.
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
I don't blame your partner for not posting for game 2. You were the one who broke the rules.

Let me know where you work as I would never umpire with you. You must be one of those egotists who "would never break a rule". Good for you. Read what happened one more time. It was the most obvious out you'll ever see. He left 18 kids, coaches and an umpire high and dry. And you don't blame him? Some of us realize it's not about us.
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
Read 10.1.4. It's one of the rules you never break.

You exercised authority that you do not have. You're the one who doesn't realize what it's all about.

We'll see if anyone else on here agrees with you.

You personify the death of common sense. BTW: I'll let you win the argument since I didn't see you were from New York. Another BTW: This incident was about 8 yrs ago. I have since done just about every HS varsity game 50 miles radius/Chicago. Regionals, sectionals and finals many times. He doesn't work anymore because other coaches and umps chased him. While I was picked last year for the junior college All Star game held near Chicago. AD's and coaches respect an ump, atleast here, who exercise this common sense you so clearly seem to be missing. Try it some time.
Still another BTW: I went to this 'ump' before I over ruled him. He would not change his call. It was a summer league dude.
First of all,

quote:
Originally posted by dave0mary:
I have since done just about every HS varsity game 50 miles radius/Chicago. Regionals, sectionals and finals many times.

Big deal.

quote:
He doesn't work anymore because other coaches and umps chased him.


I believe you. I'm sure he was terrible.

quote:
While I was picked last year for the junior college All Star game held near Chicago.

Big deal.

quote:
AD's (sic) and coaches respect an ump, at least here, who exercise (sic) this common sense you so clearly seem to be missing.

ADs and coaches are clueless when it comes to the rules. I base my decisions on the rules, not on what some clueless coach might think of such decisions.

quote:
I went to this 'ump' before I over ruled him. He would not change his call.


Although that is not the accepted mechanic, I can understand your wanting to get information to your partner to help him out - I am assuming he kicked the **** out of the call.

BUT

Once he refused to change it, you're done.

In case you haven't read it: 10.1.4..."No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it."

It doesn't say "unless it was a really bad call" or "unless the overruling umpire is dave who once worked a JUCO all-star game near Chicago."

So a team got screwed because an umpire kicked a call and refused to change it. It happens. It happened in the world series numerous times.

But when you think you are so above the game that you can disregard the rules and call it common sense, then you are not doing your job.

Finally, no matter how bad your partner's call was, you threw him under the bus when you "overruled" him. He was going to wind up under the bus anyway, but a good partner would never do what you did.

quote:
It was a summer league dude.


So?
quote:
Originally posted by dave0mary:

You personify the death of common sense. BTW: I'll let you win the argument since I didn't see you were from New York.


A Chicagoan belittling a New Yorker?? Thanks for the chuckle.

quote:
Another BTW: This incident was about 8 yrs ago.


And this is significant?

quote:
I have since done just about every HS varsity game 50 miles radius/Chicago. Regionals, sectionals and finals many times.


Really? By yourself or with a partner? You must get tired by the end of the day.

quote:
He doesn't work anymore


How can he? You're working every HS game in a 50 mile radius of the Second City.

quote:
While I was picked last year for the junior college All Star game held near Chicago.


I'm amazed you were available.

quote:
AD's and coaches respect an ump, atleast here, who exercise this common sense...


Violating the rules is not a display of common sense. AD's are not expected to know this. Umpires are.

quote:
Still another BTW: I went to this 'ump' before I over ruled him. He would not change his call.


That should have been the end of your involvement.

quote:
It was a summer league dude.


And? Do the rules regarding proper officiating not apply in the sumner in Chicago?
quote:
You exercised authority that you do not have. You're the one who doesn't realize what it's all about.

We'll see if anyone else on here agrees with you.

I don't have the NFHS book in front of me as I'm traveling. But there is a rule in chapter 10 that says the home plate ump shall have authority over anything not covered in the rules. So, my freind(s), it becomes a question of philosophy. Do you over rule on such a ridiculous call, or not? I did, you wouldn't. One key difference is .. I was there and you weren't. It boils down to judgement; and I don't claim to know how you handle judgement; so do the same for me please. I have passed this play along to the director of the IHSA and he agreed with me. So did BOTH coaches. But I know you know better being 1,000 miles away.
quote:
Originally posted by dave0mary:

I don't have the NFHS book in front of me as I'm traveling. But there is a rule in chapter 10 that says the home plate ump shall have authority over anything not covered in the rules.

Absolutely correct. The problem is, your conduct is specifically prohibited by the rules, so 10.2.3.g does not apply.

quote:
I have passed this play along to the director of the IHSA and he agreed with me. So did BOTH coaches.


Perfect. Two RATS and a suit are on your side. Now that is indeed convincing.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Now this is interesting--umpires arguing between themselves in the forum ---great stuff

It wasn't meant to be an argument - just a very interesting incident that anyone who isn't **** retentive would do the same as I did. But unfortunately, in this day and age of "everybody has a keyboard", you get 'umps' who would never bend a rule. If you read the original play carefully, and put yourself in my (plate) shoes, you would have done the same - I hope. I didn't mention in the original post that BOTH coaches were asking me to over rule. Even though I was going to anyway. Remember - we're there to 1) know and apply rules, 2) get the call right. That night after I left, the call was right. BTW: it was the only call I've ever over ruled on in 21 years.
Dave -

Go post the same topic on any of the other umpire boards. See what kind of responses you get.

Go to a pro or NCAA clinic. Give them the same situation. I dare you to find one upper level umpire who agrees with you.

And don't tell me you've already been to one. You obviously have not. Anyone who would call balls & strikes from behind the mound is a complete hack.
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
Dave -

Go post the same topic on any of the other umpire boards. See what kind of responses you get.

Go to a pro or NCAA clinic. Give them the same situation. I dare you to find one upper level umpire who agrees with you.

And don't tell me you've already been to one. You obviously have not. Anyone who would call balls & strikes from behind the mound is a complete hack.

You're right and I'm wrong. I'm truly sorry I brought it up. I'll straighten up and fly right from now on. Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Now this is interesting--umpires arguing between themselves in the forum ---great stuff


Mistake one: Since there are more than two involved, that should be "arguing among (or amongst) themselves."

Mistake two: Once again you demonstrate your proclivity to treat all those in the umpire avocation as being monolithic.

That would be like me claiming that all coaches were as stupid as the Select Travel 19U coach who ranted that it was impossible for a batter to interfere as long as stayed in the batter's box.

You'll notice I do not lump all coaches together. And, I've been very careful not to compare you to any other coach. It would simply be unfair to the other coaches.

Just as with coaches, there are umpires who have received better training than others and who are more professional in their performance than others.

And, just as in the various coaching threads, this can lead to disagreements.

You are certainly easily amused. Look...something shiny.
Last edited by Jimmy03
quote:
Originally posted by dave0mary:

I don't have the NFHS book in front of me as I'm traveling. But there is a rule in chapter 10 that says the home plate ump shall have authority over anything not covered in the rules.


However, what your partner ruled on IS covered in the rules. Thus you misapplied the rule.

quote:
So, my freind(s), it becomes a question of philosophy. Do you over rule on such a ridiculous call, or not? I did, you wouldn't.


It becomes a question of does one follow the rules? I do, you didn't.

quote:
I have passed this play along to the director of the IHSA and he agreed with me.


Really? Marty said to ignore the rules? We'll have to have a talk.

In the meantime, try Dave Gannaway. He's in charge of baseball.
>>Just as with coaches, there are umpires who have received better training than others and who are more professional in their performance than others.<<
... and there are some who have enough experience to tailor the ump style to a kick around HS summer game. So ... mistake 3 is to treat this game I had to the NCAA D1 finals. I would never over rule in the later ... ever. My game was a no-lineup/get the kids some time at bat game. I was training this guy who blew it bad; who always had a penchant for some wierd stuff now and then.
quote:
Originally posted by dave0mary:

... and there are some who have enough experience to tailor the ump style to a kick around HS summer game. So ... mistake 3 is to treat this game I had to the NCAA D1 finals. I would never over rule in the later ... ever. My game was a no-lineup/get the kids some time at bat game.


So, what other rules do you ignore during the summer?

One doesn't need to treat every game as the D-1 finals to work professionally and ethically.

The prohibition against over ruling your partner is found in all codes and should be practiced at all levels, even during training.

If an apprentice screws up that big, we speak with him privately after the game. We do not expose him to humiliation during the game.

That way, we are practicing proper management and training techniques and following the rules of baseball at the same time.
Don't you love name droppers????

Dave if you overruled that call and it benefitted my team I'm not saying a word about it because you opened that can of worms yourself. You will probably end up tossing the other coach though.

If you overruled that call and it went against my team better get ready to toss me. No way would I keep quiet because that is wrong.

Also - why do you guys call coaches rats? I know there are some idiots out there but not all of us are. There are plenty like me who want to know the rules and have a good relationship with an ump.
>>Dave if you overruled that call and it benefitted my team I'm not saying a word about it because you opened that can of worms yourself. You will probably end up tossing the other coach though.<<

You sound like you're only in it to win - suprise!

>>If you overruled that call and it went against my team better get ready to toss me. No way would I keep quiet because that is wrong.<<

If you come out and get personal with me - you will be tossed. Guaranteed. If you come out and ask a question respectfully, I will respect you more.
OK - let's say in agreement what I did was wrong. What makes it wrong though?

>>Also - why do you guys call coaches rats? I know there are some idiots out there but not all of us are. There are plenty like me who want to know the rules and have a good relationship with an ump.<<

I've never called a coach, to his hearing, anything other than his first name; or if I forgot his name, coach. My personal opinion about coaches in the Chicago area is 95% are great to work with. The bad ones I've had over the years are gone.

If you go back and read my posts you'll see that BOTH coaches asked me to over rule on such a ridiculous call. They are good coaches because they - neither one - wanted to see a kid/team get cheated. That kid could be robbing your wife at the mall ... instead, he's playing baseball. And hopefully learning how to win AND lose with dignity. That's my philosophy on the games I do in any sport. A coach who wants favor just to win - and it's easy to see - will not be on my favorites. I know there will be umps who reply to that statement because our world is supposed to be black and white ... no differentiation based on any personal feelings. But we don't live in a perfect world; and emotions are part of the game. I keep a black book in my mind just as all umps do. Some admit it - some don't. When I drive to a game, I know that and try to start each and every game w/o prejudice. Balls are balls and strikes are strikes. Period. But if a coach is constantly sqwauking about things, it may tighten up near the plate for his pitcher. You know it, and all the guys here know it too. Like I said, some will admit, some won't.
quote:
Originally posted by dave0mary:
I keep a black book in my mind just as all umps do. Some admit it - some don't. When I drive to a game, I know that and try to start each and every game w/o prejudice. Balls are balls and strikes are strikes. Period. But if a coach is constantly sqwauking about things, it may tighten up near the plate for his pitcher. You know it, and all the guys here know it too. Like I said, some will admit, some won't.


I was trying my best read this thread and find common ground with you on a number of points....I was trying to put myself in your shoes when the gross miss was called....

I do try and think these things out thoroughly before I answer and look back across my 20+ years for a point of reference to answer correctly....

I cant support much of what you have said here....the black book in your mind is just that...its your issue...dont paint all umpires with that broad brush....

Yes, I have had confrontations with coaches, and yes, some coaches and are not friends, but we are respect each other for where we are coming from....

They have an interest in the outcome of the game, and I am the arbiter of the game.....its a relationship that is bound to come into some conflict...

Early on, I came to realize that baseball is a passionate game and if I was going to get offended and hold grudges against coaches/players for what occurred in a past game, then I was going to have a miserable career.

You stated that if a coach is constantly sqwauking about things, it may tighten up near the plate for his pitcher.

I cant support you here.....dont cheat the pitcher for his coach's actions....punish the coach if you feel he has gone overboard....thats why you can eject.....

It doesnt take a baseball analyst to know when a zone is being pinched for one side or another.....An Umpire may be sending a message to a misbehaving coach but he is also sending a message to the other coach as well..... that that Umpires ethics are in question....

Your right I wont admit it..because I call that cheating and I dont work with Cheaters.......

Best of luck to you....
Last edited by piaa_ump
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
dave0mary

I think you have stepped over the line as an umpire


Some of the "unwritten rules of baseball": (published in several books)
Do not steal a base late in a game that isn't competitive.
Do not show up the pitcher after hitting a homerun.
Always back up your teammates in a fight.
Never bunt to break up a no-hitter.
Don't swing at a 3 - 0 pitch when your team has a comfortable lead.
New batters and pitchers don't get the same luxuries as veterans.

That last one is interesting since partiality is clearly shown. Given that, I'm glad to be conversing with umpires who are above the major leagues. Can I get someones autograph?

I know the taboo's of umpiring. NOTHING ever gets under your skin to affect your judgement. Right. Again, I feel honored to be here with the elite.
Dave let me explain that one of the things that I am paid to do is win games. There are a plethora of other things I will do to help my guys but if you want to boot a call then that is all on you. It doesn't happen very often at the high school level that a coach if fired over wins and losses but it does happen. You blowing a call that causes my team to lose could cost me my job - like I said it's unlikely but could happen. One thing you can be certain of you blow a call and we lose those parents that don't like me are given more ammo to go to the people I answer too. Think of that next time you want to impose your will on the game - you might be getting someone fired. You call it by the book then so be it - it is what it is. I should have done a better job instead of getting screwed by you.

Yes I would approach you very politely and ask in a polite manner what happened. But when I hear you say "he got it wrong but I got the right call" I'm NOT going to be very happy. You keep telling me that and I'm going to get more unhappy. But you got to understand that you created the conflict - not me. It is an unnecessary disagreement.

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