Catcher gets plowed!

So, how bad was he hurt?

quote:

Originally posted by KCBaseball:
Youngest son is 15-year-old catcher, playing up in the 17/18 HS fall league.

He got bull-dogged/leveled on a play at the plate last week. Its amazing how different everyone's first reactions were after the dangerous play...

MOM - Is he alive?

DAD - That kid didn't even try to slide!

NURSE in the stands who RAN out on the field - can't type the bad word she was chanting in anticipation of his injuries.

UMP - Immediate ejection of bull-dogging player (handled it all very well).

ER DOCTOR - Did he lose consciousness?

SON - Was the runner out?

Yes, first question..........is he ok?.......

then

UMP - Immediate ejection of bull-dogging player (handled it all very well).........

after making sure your son is ok...........Im glad to see the umpire enforced the NFHS penalty for such an action.....

I have seen this many times. One time it was 17U elite playing American League rules. You are allowed to run the catcher but you can't try to injure him. The Ump tossed the guy but had to reinstate him. Obviously the Ump was not on the same page. The catcher was knocked cold and uffered a concusion.
I was shocked that parents and the Ump didn't realise which rules they played under. I actually thought our player should have been tossed. He didn't roll his shoulder but brought his forearm up hitting the catcher in the head. In a latter series of games at that teams park in Ottawa the same thing happened and it almost caused a riot. The injured catcher went on to play a couple years at a D1 college and hopefully had no ill effects. He had to set up for the hit. We had abother catcer who set up perfectly with his feet infront of the plate and it was funny to watch guys try to knock him over. They bounced off him like hitting a brick wall.
The problem is the catchers and players should be aware of the rules. Most leagues require a slide and often no attempt to bole over the catcher.

Thanks for the concern. He's fine. This happened 8 days ago and I'm just now calming down. We are so glad he wasn't more seriously hurt.

He has a mild concussion and fractured nose. About 48 hours of headaches and no activities for 5 days, but nothing else. Player had lowered his head and hit my son with the top of his batting helmet right in son's forehead. We think the bill of the batting helmet caught his nose.

The team we were playing was a group of HS boys with no adult coach (fall ball is very laid back). I made a point to contact the league and get the rules to require an adult in the dugout. It felt like the team was fueled by unsupervised testosterone and adrenaline. The player was hotdogging and running the bases to show off for his friends. Tried to score from first on a little short-center blooper. No one expected him to be coming home. 3rd base coach was 18-years-old but just another kid on the team, so he kept running.

Son learned a VALUABLE lesson. Even when there shouldn't be a play at home, leave your catcher's mask on.

BTW.. The player was out. Son still had the ball in his hand while flat on his back at home.

KC,

Very true in everyone's reactions. Question - did he keep his mask on for the play at the plate?

I can't stress it enough - KEEP THE MASK ON!

I think it is important to learn how to take a hit regardless of the rules under which you are playing. there is always a cowboy in the game.

Our top catcher after receiving the ball stepped to the 3rd base side of the plate,planted his spikes beside the plate blocking it and then put his left shoulder down towards 3rd B. You had no choice but to try and run him over. I saw guys hit him so hard they bounced back about 3-4 feet.

Uhhh...that's not taking a hit, that is delivering one.

I would advise all young catchers to make sure their toe of their left foot is pointing up the 3B line and curl away after contact to reduce the violence of the collision.

Another bit of advice is to keep the knees bent to help prevent really bad knee injuries. It's not foolproof but does help.

[quote]I think it is important to learn how to take a hit regardless of the rules under which you are playing. there is always a cowboy in the game.

IMO this is excellent advice. The goal is to avoid contact whenver possible.The best thing that happens in collision plays at home plate is that the catcher does not get hurt.
ADDED THOUGHTS

Let the runner see the plate to give him every reason to slide & you also dictate his direction for the most part.Also keep your head on a swivel before you catch the ball so you can see how far the runner is from home plate & his intended course. Work down to up.( if the throw is elevated get down as soon as you catch the ball whenever possible) If there is going to be a collision & the throw does not take you away from the plate,go to both knees with your feet pointed in the same direction. ( to either side & not straight back) This gets you lower than the runner & puts you in a position to absorb the contact as opposed to resiting it. Roll away from the runner that does not slide as he makes contact.Mike Scioscia, the greatest home plate blocker ever, used this technique.

JW

As a catcher, I love plays at the plate- especially ones that end in a collision. For me, it is an adrenaline rush.
You just have to be prepared for the hit in a few ways:
1) KEEP MASK ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2) Be in athletic stance with leg leg/toe pointed at the runner to protect knee/ankle. The more crouched you are, the easier it is to absorb the hit safely.
3) Be smart/Use common sense- if the guy is bigger, stronger, and running fast don't try to be a tough guy; take the hit and roll with it. If you're much bigger than the runner, sure you might be able to inflict a hit of your own, but he has the advantage of momentum; so use your head.
4) Protect the ball- ball in throwing hand, throwing hand and ball in glove.
5) Use your protective gear to your advantage- keep unprotected parts of your body away from direct blow.
6) Catch the throw as close to the plate/3rd base line as possible- don't run toward the ball to make the catch and have to dive back to the plate i.e. Brian McCann. He's awful at plays at the plate, and he got hit with a concussion for his efforts. Trust your hands to pick a bad throw, don't try to block the ball, you won't have time to recover and make a tag- plus the pitcher is supposed to be backing you up.

So if I am correct... Apply the tag and kinda turn towards one side or the other. And also keep knees bent and toes pointed to the runner along with sholders forward and keep a low center of gravity. Sorta the lower man wins philosophy? Thanks

Under what rules was this game being played?

Some times even the mask only helps out. My son had many experiences over the years with several memorable ones lately in a league where contact is allowed. Last years playoff opponets had bases loaded in the top of the 7th.(last inning). Fly ball to center field Out #1, throw to 2ed behind straying runner Out #2, runner on third tags up and procedes to level Jr. at home plate, as the paper put it in "A violent Colision". Some how or other he manages to hold on to ball. Game over, then off to Hospital to get nose fixed but not before runner shook the catchers hand and appoligised. Son told him not to worry it was a good hit with the game on the line.

quote:

September

Most plays at the plate are bang bang type situations, however occasionally a catcher will have the ball with a decent amount of time before the play needs to be made (runner goes through a stop sign from the 3b coach). If the runner appears as if he is going to come in standing up and the catcher has the opportunity to, he should grip the ball in his bare hand inside the glove and take both apply a strong almost violent tag to the runners face. I know it sounds dirty, but as a catcher we have to look out for our safety and the players momentum will follow his head (imagine how much force a punch would have if a boxer was moving his head backwards as he delivered it). Remember, if they're coming in high, they care about the play more than the catchers safety; as catchers we should do the same

Hardball:
IMO really POOR advice.If the runner is not trying to run you over and you have the ball early, tag him out & get out of there.If you have the ball early and the runner tries to run you over, then & only then, he has earned a high hard tag.

If you have the ball early enough & can move up the line towards 3rd, just side step the runner & sweep tag him from behind.Avoid meeting him straight on where you can jam your wrist as a result of the force of the runner moving straight through your tag.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by jerry weinstein:
Hardball:
IMO really POOR advice.If the runner is not trying to run you over and you have the ball early, tag him out & get out of there.If you have the ball early and the runner tries to run you over, then & only then, he has earned a high hard tag.

If you have the ball early enough & can move up the line towards 3rd, just side step the runner & sweep tag him from behind.Avoid meeting him straight on where you can jam your wrist as a result of the force of the runner moving straight through your tag.

JW

Can not agree with you more Jerry. Catchers need to make the tag with the least amount of contact possible. No need to stand in harms way when a sweep tag from the side will do.

I apologize for my ambiguity. I echo your statements, anytime a collision can be avoided it is best for all parties involved. I would recommend making the tag, while staying low, to the torso of the the runner, and rolling out and opening up to the field in order to see if there are any other plays to be made. My previous comment was regarding a runner coming in with an apparently malicious intent (which I have seen far too often). Thank you for pointing this out, I was not trying to urge catchers towards creating unnecessarily dangerous situations, but rather towards protecting themselves

Sometimes the collision at the plate isn't the end of it. Case in point, this year son's team was leading 6 to 2 in the last inning and runner tries to score from 3rd on weak fly to center. No attempt was made to slide so after the dust clears from the big collision at the plate Jr. shows his fustration by flipping the ball (yes he held on to it) to the overzelous baserunner. The opposing team took exception to this gesture and in their next meeting guess who took one in the thigh and one in the back in his first 2 trips to the plate. Only sad part of the story was final score 7-8 them.

About 15 years ago, our team was playing in a league that was governed by A.L. rules. One of my players creamed a catcher at the plate, and had no business doing so. I, as the coach, ejected my player from the game.

This fall ball season my son has been in 2 collisions catching.

It was kind of funny in a sick way because all you could see was a cloud of dust and a hand poking up out of the dust with a ball in it. I don't know if the kid who ran my son over was out or not but the umpire looked so impressed that he held onto the ball he called the runner out.

He just turned 14, 120 lbs in Aug playing up with 15-17 year old kids. He loves that kind of stuff, he may be small and tall for his age but he is pretty good about gauging the runner coming in and how to block the plate.


You just have to love that position to play it.


drill

The 3rd and final chapter (for this season) was after getting drilled twice in the previous meeting because of an earlier collision at the plate the stage was set for a post season meeting with the same team. With the game on the line at our home field in the bottom of the 7th Jr's team was leading by 1 run. Fly ball to right recorded 2ed out than runner on 3rd tags up. Even the reporter from the local paper was quoted as saying "If the runner slides he's in there". Instead the guy lowers his shoulder , in an apparant attempt to cause injury, and flattens the defensless catcher. Somehow or other Jr. recieves the ball (which arrives after the collision) on the way back/down. After comming to rest a good 8 to 10 feet behind the plate he shows the ball to the home plate ump. The runner was called out and the game was over. In true fashion for a player and team with no class it was a good 10 minutes before order was restored. As the newspaper put it, The loseing team vehitmonly protested the call claiming the runner steped on the plate before the collision and before the catcher had possesion of the ball. In my opinion both the player and the opposing team should have been asessed a suspension at the start of next season. When all was said and done Jr. was told by the home plate umpire that considering the malisous actions of the runner he was out no matter who touched what first. As long as he held on to the ball the runner was out and the game was over.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The Ump tossed the guy but had to reinstate him.

Why? Seems to me the ejection was warranted. Who said he had to be reinstated?

When you play pro rules, by the letter of the law, your allowed to make contact including not sliding.

quote:

Originally posted by plash3:
When you play pro rules, by the letter of the law, your allowed to make contact including not sliding.

The original post said it was a HS fall league. Under HS rules, the runner is out and ejected, and he's not coming back.

The post you quoted by BobbleheadDoll said it was a 17U Elite League playing American Legion Rules. Which game are you playing?

Correction, American League Rules

Plash3 is correct . The Elite teams play by American League rules. The HS rules here don't allow any contact and you must slide and try to avoid contact, Runner can't even slide head 1st or they are out.
The regular travel teams (non elite) teams have to slide as well but don't have to avoid contact if a player is in their path. The Ump was thinking regular travel team where an effort to hit a catcher when a slide could be made can toss the runner if he plows into the catcher with the intent to dislodge the ball when a slide could be made. It is a judgement call.
The situation sent the cathcher to the hospital with a concussion. This happened to that catcher again a few weeks later. Caused a near riot as did a sweeping tag by a leaping 1st base play that hit their runner in the head. That weekend was full of tension resulting from the original hit on the catcher. That catcher went on to play a couple years at a D1 college in the US.
The original toss out by the Ump was to me a just call even though it was AL rules. The runner brought his elbow up and did not roll his shoulder. To me that was an intentionl attemp to injur. I felt that way even though the runner was on our team.

Many leagues around here play under modified AL rules, but just about all of them, including Stan Musial, do not allow barreling the catcher. If they were playing under unmodified AL rules, then a Pete Rose-like crash into Ray Fosse is legal. However, Bobblehead's post said the rules preclused an attempt to injure the catcher (the runner tried to do just that), and the umpire had to reinstate the ejected player. I'm curious as to why he "undumped" him.

He reinstated the player because the AL rules allowed you to run the catcher and to try and dislodge the ball.
From my vantage point I could see the elbow come up and hit the catcher in the head. He started with his shoulder rolled but just before contact he brought his forearm up with all the force he could muster. It showed intent to injure. Almost like throwing a punch. It may have been that the Ump didn't see it or that he forgot it when he made his decision witch was made between games. I assumed our coach pressured him to read the rules that applied. These Umps were used to regular travel ball and may not have been aware it was AL rules. I have seen this before so it would not surprise me.

Thanks for the detail BobbleheadDoll.

OBR 9.01 (d) Each umpire has the authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field.

An elbow to the head? Decidedly unsportsmanlike. He's done for the day, and there's no way he's coming back in.