I have been running urban teams in Chicago for 5 years. It has been an interesting experience and I have seen all forms of behavior that could be characterized as boorish manners from the so called "baseball elite" to something more substantive such as bi*&%$y. I cannot read peoples minds, however I can read these posts and I know that there is plenty of racism in this world and to pretend that it does not exist in baseball is just not my reality.
Maybe it is yours.
Anyway, I have discussed this subject at length with many. Suffice it to say there are large number in the CPL and Whitney Young community who are watching this thread with a great deal of interest as many of the things that we have long suspected are now being openly expressed. There are many players of color in the CPL and if they are rotten and no good in your eyes so be it. There is disparity in every league and there are good, better and the best teams and of course there are those that just suck. CPL has lots of bad teams. The system is huge and it is no different than any league. Not every team is going to be good.
I was a longtime Human Resources Professional at Price Waterhouse for 18 years and there was nothing I disliked more than anything less than honest performance appraisals. So these kids need to know where they stand in your eyes. That is important so that they get better or get out of the game. There is nothing worse than being told you are good when you really suck and then getting the pink slip on Monday morning.
Dave, as far as my son is concerned he has been the only white kid on teams for years and would largely agree with what is being said as he has seen it as plain as day. As you know when you are a coach the son hears a lot of nonsense about how he is only playing because a father is involved or a pitching because the dad is the coach. You remember what it was like when you and I tried to reign in the well intentioned, but often nutty parent group for two years. Then think about the subsequent travel teams. When you were the coach it was a lot harder on Mike. You knew that, but you chose to get involved. These who get involved get criticized. It comes with the job as they say. So I got involved in a BIG, BIG TIME way. I rented UIC and IIT, I hired coaches, designed my own uniforms created a web site and then began running tournaments to help pay for it all. Lots and lots of kids got to play on the fields I rented and it was a lot of fun. But as always there were a lot of people did not like the way I did it or even what I did. That is the way it goes. I did not really care because I did it my way.
No different for Jason, but in the long run all the nonsense being said does not matter as the kid only gets stronger mentally and it does not compare at all of what is said to him when he is on the mound pitching. Do you think they are saying nice things to him? Would I recommend this approach for every kid? Absolutely not! However, I have never been afraid to take a risk and many people questioned my sanity when we sent Jason to Young as it was a big unknown for us as he came from a private elementary school.
But it has been the absolutely the best decision for him and for our family. The school is a perfect fit for him and I and how can I argue with 2 baseball championships and 1 basketball championship and one basketball runner up finish in just two years of his being at the school. But as so many say and from your experience you yourself remember that CPL was no good then. So that is OK. But if you believe what others say then it becomes your reality. I choose to look at his situation differently. I have seen what I have seen and I feel otherwise about this group of players at Young. I think they have talent and we will just have to see how it all shakes out. He is only a Sophomore and has two more years and I think (not hype) that they have the talent to compete. But maybe we will get our brains beat out of us. That will be that and life goes on!
The school is excellent academically and he is a standout student. So he is happy. Does he mind the attention? Perhaps. What teenage kid wants this? He is a pretty unassuming kid and shys away from attention. However, as he recently said to me, there is nothing worse than being a student athlete at Young as everyone (the coaches) are always looking at your grades (on edline) and they know right away if you are not performing and soon everyone in the school knows, especially if you are declared academically ineligible (yes it does happen). So he is accustomed to (but does not at all like) being in a fishbowl.
At the beginning I certainly did not know what we were getting into, but I am today a huge fan of Dr. Kenner. She personally called me to encourage us to send Jason to Young. He had many choices including Ignatius and University High, but he scored in the highest percentile to get into Young such that he was sought after as a student to atend Young, personally by Dr. Kenner. If Coach Rosene were at Ignatius he would have gone there in a heartbeat, but he was gone and that was a disappointment to us as a family. But it would have been wrong to send Jason to a school just because of a coach so in the end JASON made his choice and HE made the best decision for him.
Anyway, Dr. Kenner and I have had many very candid discussions about all manner of things. She is a Baseball MOM so I know her feelings on numerous subjects. In our very first telephone conversation, she asked me straight away if I was afraid to send Jason to Young because he was not black. I was impressed with her direct approach. Anyone who knows me can attest to that I am no shrinking violet and I like direct questions. I paused for a brief moment and then told her that it had crossed my mind.
We both laughed and I will forever remember that first telephone conversation. She made a strong pitch and we were sold although Jason had his mind made up the minute he got his letter of acceptance. However, Dr. Kenner's telephone call gave Lori and I the confidence to let Jason make his own decision.
I did not know this then, but I now know that Young is a school that is racially balanced and represents a true microcosm of the city of Chicago. So that is the way it is. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Caucasians all having to get along and learn and work together in all manner of things. That is a good thing.
Anyway, as any Dad knows it takes a lot for a kid to be on a team with the family name on the back of his uniform. That is why I never coached the team and hired all of the coaches. That is what I felt was best. He has been insulted by many so none of this is the first time. It comes with the game. Baseball is a rough sport. So as I said, any kid who has a father who runs or coaches a sports team has to suck up a lot as there are many things constantly being said about that kid who has a dad involved in the game. Suffice it to say I have been one of the most in your face and involved baseball guys running tournaments and teams in Illinois for over 6 years. Just my name alone seems to drive people nutty, so I am rather fascinated by the amount of activity all of my posts draw. But that is OK as I have been a very visible person in Illinois youth baseball.
The bottom line for Jason is that he will have to stand on his own merits and it does not matter what the peanut gallery says. He has to prove himself time and time again so I am not at all concerned. I am more interested in promoting others who have played for Clubbers-Chicago and that is my motivation. I also intend to promote CPL for the next 2 years as that is where I am now. If I were in the Catholic Conference I would use my talents and recources to develop and promote that. I grew up in the 60's and still believe in a lot of what that era represents. Note my strong affinity for the Beatles! I am a believer in developing talent and reaching the impossible. Perhaps it is only a dream, but good things come from hard work and determination. I can IMAGINE!
None of this are tales out of school or news. My wife and I have shared this story with many over the past two plus years. There are many people in our circle of friends who were shocked that Jason did not follow the traditional course that all of his elementary classmates took and attended a private high school. It was Jason's decision entirely and we supported it.
P.S. Am I one nutty baseball parent? Absolutely. Many people have alluded to me being insane to have put all of the time and money into this thing. But I am not a very good golfer and I have not had time to golfing or skiing for years. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat!
I can tell you that I enjoyed every minute of this experience, better than anything I could imagine. What is better than being on a baseball diamond with your son?
Hope this helps.
MO
From where I sit your spewing your venom will do nothing but hurt your son as he progresses thru his HS career
I have never seen your son play and he may be a very fine ball player but I would be leery of having him play for me because of your attitude and thinking---a it is certainly not a great team chemistry thing
From where I sit your spewing your venom will do nothing but hurt your son as he progresses thru his HS career
I have never seen your son play and he may be a very fine ball player but I would be leery of having him play for me because of your attitude and thinking---a it is certainly not a great team chemistry thing
Gees....I would guess that this thread has expanded far beyond what anyone would have imagined.
Still would like to know, Mark....
Why did no one hear of you and your organization in 2001 and 2002 when I was involved with coaching the 15 and then 16 year old Upper Deck Cougars?
Still would like to know, Mark....
Why did no one hear of you and your organization in 2001 and 2002 when I was involved with coaching the 15 and then 16 year old Upper Deck Cougars?
I only started this in 2001-2002 and only had a team that was running concurrent with my son's age. The first Clubber group was 12 year old players and we had no exposure and we were not a very good team. In fact I will always remember getting our asses kicked really, really good by a strong team called the Arlington Longshots in a July 4 tournament. They loved it and we were their stepping stone. Several years later as things worked out many of those very good players were on our roster.
It took a few years to figure things out and we evolved from being an all white team when Burrage and Gowder joined the team and then very rapidly the team makeup changed. Lots of turnover came from that. We were not good immediately but we gradually got better. There were lots of reasons why that happened. I credit our coaches Rosene, Kurga and a kid out of UIC, named J.P. Carey.
If you were in the 15-16 age group then we would not have been on your radar screen or mattered to you. For one year we had a second team that was one year younger as a large grant from Chicago Blackhawks stipulated that we were to start a team focused on developing minority youth players. So for one year we had two age group teams, but funding ran out and that was the end of that.
I did not start this as anything other than a team. The urban aspect developed once all of my white friends left me! There were a lot of reasons again why that also happened.
Anyway, we got the grant and I started the second team. Big mistake. I should not have done it! The second team lacked a parent to oversee things and every parent that had a kid on the team had other commitments that were more important than their kid playing baseball.
So I would not recommend starting a second team as you need time to do both justice and I was not committed to the younger group so eventually things ran amuck.
It took a few years to figure things out and we evolved from being an all white team when Burrage and Gowder joined the team and then very rapidly the team makeup changed. Lots of turnover came from that. We were not good immediately but we gradually got better. There were lots of reasons why that happened. I credit our coaches Rosene, Kurga and a kid out of UIC, named J.P. Carey.
If you were in the 15-16 age group then we would not have been on your radar screen or mattered to you. For one year we had a second team that was one year younger as a large grant from Chicago Blackhawks stipulated that we were to start a team focused on developing minority youth players. So for one year we had two age group teams, but funding ran out and that was the end of that.
I did not start this as anything other than a team. The urban aspect developed once all of my white friends left me! There were a lot of reasons again why that also happened.
Anyway, we got the grant and I started the second team. Big mistake. I should not have done it! The second team lacked a parent to oversee things and every parent that had a kid on the team had other commitments that were more important than their kid playing baseball.
So I would not recommend starting a second team as you need time to do both justice and I was not committed to the younger group so eventually things ran amuck.
Definitely a train wreck. But, maybe......... Nope, definitely a wreck of some sorts. Might have some characteristics of.... but then again, no. It's gotta be a train wreck. Then, there you have it. A wreck. Nothin pretty about it, or pretentious. Not trying to be something it ain't. Not standing tall, saying "look at me", just a wreck. Plain and simple. A crunched up, I've had better days kind of wreck. Agreed.
no where, no one cares about your coaching career either!!!!!! move on dude!
Fungo...Stick it in your ear. Better yet, get back under your rock.
Are you some sort of "stalker"?
Haven't seen you contribute anything substantive since you've been posting for the past couple of years.
I've coached kids and I'm proud of it. Was only pointing out that I hadn't heard of Ormand's team in 2001 and 2002. Got my answer.
Are you some sort of "stalker"?
Haven't seen you contribute anything substantive since you've been posting for the past couple of years.
I've coached kids and I'm proud of it. Was only pointing out that I hadn't heard of Ormand's team in 2001 and 2002. Got my answer.
MO,
You've got passion, I'll give you that. Please excuse the intrusion of the guy from Texas but ****, buddy, baseball is about playing the sport, not about whining. You're going to corner the market if you keep it up.
Maybe it's different in IL (I really doubt it) but if a kid can play ball in Texas he'll be on whatever team he wants to be on and it will cost him whatever he can afford - nothing, if that's the case. All the teams I and my son have been associated with, and all the organizations I know of, want the best ball players on the field. Who gives a rat's a** about what color he is, what part of town he lives in, or how much money his daddy makes?
It's about developing boys into men. In the real world if a man can do your job better than you then you will be replaced. It's 2007. Does racism still exist? Of course it does. Do you run in to it every day? Gosh, if you look under enough rocks you can find anything. What I do know is that I do own a business and if you can perform then you are hired. Anyone with goals should know this and live it. If a person's, or business' mind is so small that they see color first then they will lose the wonderful game of life. As my dad used to say, "for crying out loud, quit complaining and do something." Of course you think you are doing something. All I hear is bitc**** and moaning, and that turns folks that might be willing to help off.
Good luck. You're going to need it. And so are the kids that play in your organization. If they're poisoned with your prejudices then they're going to need it too.
You've got passion, I'll give you that. Please excuse the intrusion of the guy from Texas but ****, buddy, baseball is about playing the sport, not about whining. You're going to corner the market if you keep it up.
Maybe it's different in IL (I really doubt it) but if a kid can play ball in Texas he'll be on whatever team he wants to be on and it will cost him whatever he can afford - nothing, if that's the case. All the teams I and my son have been associated with, and all the organizations I know of, want the best ball players on the field. Who gives a rat's a** about what color he is, what part of town he lives in, or how much money his daddy makes?
It's about developing boys into men. In the real world if a man can do your job better than you then you will be replaced. It's 2007. Does racism still exist? Of course it does. Do you run in to it every day? Gosh, if you look under enough rocks you can find anything. What I do know is that I do own a business and if you can perform then you are hired. Anyone with goals should know this and live it. If a person's, or business' mind is so small that they see color first then they will lose the wonderful game of life. As my dad used to say, "for crying out loud, quit complaining and do something." Of course you think you are doing something. All I hear is bitc**** and moaning, and that turns folks that might be willing to help off.
Good luck. You're going to need it. And so are the kids that play in your organization. If they're poisoned with your prejudices then they're going to need it too.
I tried to stay away. I really tried. Beenthere,
you would not have heard on the Clubbers because you were one of the earlier pioneers in what has become Travel Baseball. One could argue that Fran Pell and a few others were the primary pioneers in Travel Baseball. Guys like me followed you and Mark and others followed my age group. New coaches now put together 9 year old teams and enter the forum. Look at what we created.
What is extremely interesting is that when a respected coaches name is mentioned on this site, the masses that make up parents and player reply with words of support or sometimes less than support except. I only hear silence at this moment. I truly do not believe the Clubbers had nothing to do with minority player development but rather that was forced by the "Blackhawk stipulations" as readily and clearly admitted in the above post. Sadly enough, I would question if team development was important compared to player development.... We all know that answer. By the way Mark, great couple post to spur sympathy. Such social personality condition manipulation is clearly identified by those who know. As I stated more than once, described on more than one post, I do have sympathy for you. I also have concern for you in regards to what the future holds for your hapiness and MH. Please no Beatle lyrics. I have always been much more of a Who, Replacements or Smithereens fan. Speaking of the Smithereens...the Smithereens just released a tribute CD "Meet the Smithereens" to honor the "Meet the Beatles" historic release.... This post just came full circle.... Wow! I think the Smithereens copy is better than the original. Maybe I will quote Smithereen lyrics in my future post. Hopefully my last post on the topic of Mark.
Concerned
you would not have heard on the Clubbers because you were one of the earlier pioneers in what has become Travel Baseball. One could argue that Fran Pell and a few others were the primary pioneers in Travel Baseball. Guys like me followed you and Mark and others followed my age group. New coaches now put together 9 year old teams and enter the forum. Look at what we created.
What is extremely interesting is that when a respected coaches name is mentioned on this site, the masses that make up parents and player reply with words of support or sometimes less than support except. I only hear silence at this moment. I truly do not believe the Clubbers had nothing to do with minority player development but rather that was forced by the "Blackhawk stipulations" as readily and clearly admitted in the above post. Sadly enough, I would question if team development was important compared to player development.... We all know that answer. By the way Mark, great couple post to spur sympathy. Such social personality condition manipulation is clearly identified by those who know. As I stated more than once, described on more than one post, I do have sympathy for you. I also have concern for you in regards to what the future holds for your hapiness and MH. Please no Beatle lyrics. I have always been much more of a Who, Replacements or Smithereens fan. Speaking of the Smithereens...the Smithereens just released a tribute CD "Meet the Smithereens" to honor the "Meet the Beatles" historic release.... This post just came full circle.... Wow! I think the Smithereens copy is better than the original. Maybe I will quote Smithereen lyrics in my future post. Hopefully my last post on the topic of Mark.
Concerned
If you cannot address the issue then continue to shift the subject. That is the trick here and the inability to form a reasoned and intelligent response. No matter, the gap of players of color in this sport is clearly evident.
The ability to swing players of color to baseball is reversible; clearly the MLB has the money and needs to try even harder at stemming the fade. Lots of reasons and there has been literally that no one cares enough to do anything to stem the tide.
Address the trend in colleges.......as there it is even more apparent.
Don't assess what I have done or my motives. Rather what have you done? Sit on the sidelines and throw your peanuts from the gallery does not count. How many of you have run a team with players of color? How many have been on a team or run a team which is predominantely of another race?
Zero...that is what I thought.
Step forward with your credentials or remain anonymous and take shots. The later is far safer and easier. That is the modus operandi of much of this site and I do get it.
Until then Whitney Young and Jones College Prep are in the Sectionals. Are you? Should be a good game. See you at Mount Carmel unless of course your team is still playing.
Someday, someway things will change.
The ability to swing players of color to baseball is reversible; clearly the MLB has the money and needs to try even harder at stemming the fade. Lots of reasons and there has been literally that no one cares enough to do anything to stem the tide.
Address the trend in colleges.......as there it is even more apparent.
Don't assess what I have done or my motives. Rather what have you done? Sit on the sidelines and throw your peanuts from the gallery does not count. How many of you have run a team with players of color? How many have been on a team or run a team which is predominantely of another race?
Zero...that is what I thought.
Step forward with your credentials or remain anonymous and take shots. The later is far safer and easier. That is the modus operandi of much of this site and I do get it.
Until then Whitney Young and Jones College Prep are in the Sectionals. Are you? Should be a good game. See you at Mount Carmel unless of course your team is still playing.
Someday, someway things will change.
AndI'm not sure about this one. Some guy tried to sell this to me...he swore it was a Cupie Doll, but I wasn't buying it. After I checked it out thoroughly and then had it analyzed by an American Society of Cupie Doll Collectors and Afficianados (ASCDCA) expert I'm pretty well convinced it's not a Cupie Doll at all, but merely a crushed rail tank car. What do you think? Were we right...crushed tank car?
[/QUOTE]
Why did you have to pull up a picture of a COLORED tanker being smashed? When will this social injustice end?
GO WHITNEY YOUNG!!
[/QUOTE]Why did you have to pull up a picture of a COLORED tanker being smashed? When will this social injustice end?
GO WHITNEY YOUNG!!
"the gap of players of color in this sport is clearly evident."
Am I to guess that this is the point of the thread? If so, you're barking up the wrong tree, Pal. I doubt there are any folks here that can tell MLB what to do. What we can do is act and react on an individual basis. That's what I was writing about. What the hell can I do about what a MLB club does? It still remains that if a "person of color" can play ball he will play ball. You can dress up the argument in all kinds of code to glorify the "group" but if you can't play on an individual level then you aren't going to make it, period.
Now if you want to send one of your kids down to make a team around here we'll be glad to give him a tryout. If he can play then he'll make the team. If he makes the team eventually he might get a scholarship. If he gets a chance to play in college then he might get drafted. If he gets drafted then he can come back and invest his money in your players. More than likely he'll realize that he earned everything he's received on his own and not have the same gimme gimmee gimmee attitude that you do.
Am I to guess that this is the point of the thread? If so, you're barking up the wrong tree, Pal. I doubt there are any folks here that can tell MLB what to do. What we can do is act and react on an individual basis. That's what I was writing about. What the hell can I do about what a MLB club does? It still remains that if a "person of color" can play ball he will play ball. You can dress up the argument in all kinds of code to glorify the "group" but if you can't play on an individual level then you aren't going to make it, period.
Now if you want to send one of your kids down to make a team around here we'll be glad to give him a tryout. If he can play then he'll make the team. If he makes the team eventually he might get a scholarship. If he gets a chance to play in college then he might get drafted. If he gets drafted then he can come back and invest his money in your players. More than likely he'll realize that he earned everything he's received on his own and not have the same gimme gimmee gimmee attitude that you do.
Lane crashes in it's Sectional.
Loss to Guerrin 4-3.
Another one bites the dust.
Loss to Guerrin 4-3.
Another one bites the dust.
Deflection of issues and facts is clearly another sign of needed help. Can we help you? Does the boy know of your post? You never answered the questions of agallan. He awaits your answer. Are the answers becoming difficult to answer? AGallan is still waiting for you answer by the way. This is moving fast, i know. How could I or someone else help?
Mark,
The 12 year old Clubbers beat the Longshots twice. First in a tournament where we had been eliminated. Matsie set you off by saying that the game didn't count, because it was the last game of pool play and the seedings had been decided. Then we faced them at the Smith Park Tournament and beat them on the way to the title of that tourament. We beat the Longshots, the beat the McHenry Hurricanes when Angelo got kicked out for running in to the catcher, the a team from Ohio. Don't short change that Clubber team. They had some talent.
The 12 year old Clubbers beat the Longshots twice. First in a tournament where we had been eliminated. Matsie set you off by saying that the game didn't count, because it was the last game of pool play and the seedings had been decided. Then we faced them at the Smith Park Tournament and beat them on the way to the title of that tourament. We beat the Longshots, the beat the McHenry Hurricanes when Angelo got kicked out for running in to the catcher, the a team from Ohio. Don't short change that Clubber team. They had some talent.
I guess 12-U team got lost from my memory banks. But yes I do recall we finished strong that year.
Thanks for the reminder. Memory Not Quite Full!
Thanks for the reminder. Memory Not Quite Full!
Stanwood,
Only gimmee, gimmee attitude I know of down your way was the Enron/Arthur Andersen debacle.
Deal with it.
Nothing to send down your way from up north.
Only gimmee, gimmee attitude I know of down your way was the Enron/Arthur Andersen debacle.
Deal with it.
Nothing to send down your way from up north.
That's a good one, MO. There's no crooked companies or crooked politicians in your neck of the woods, huh? Learn some geography too while you're at it.