Chameleon

quote:

Yes, this is a fact but then realize that Steve does this on his own site. I've never seen him do this on any other site.

CoachB25, in all fairness to this discussion, I want you to know that I do understand where you're coming from....That being said.........

I do know as a confirmed fact that he has made very personal attacks on this site.....And, I do stress, very personal attacks.....

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Its, there are several way that vodoo video can give this impression. Not the least of which is the amount of time between frames or how long the frame is displayed. Also important are camera angle, pitch location, type of pitch etc. For example, take two swings from any MLB Player. Given video at 60 fps, the hitter that is sitting and hitting dead red looks impressive. The hitter that is sitting dead red and gets a ball either out of the zone they are looking in or off spead looks terrible. You can't tell from this video either pitch speed, location, type of pitch ... JMHO! Also, let's face it, David Ecstein hits a ball out once in a while.

You forgot to quote Bernstein, Dixon and Siff.

lol

His attacks are usually though email.

Things like...."what if I told the coach that is recruiting your son/daughter that he/she......etc etc"

Chameleon, you would do much better in presenting your swing theory by sticking to what you know to be true....

Case in point is, I know for a fact that CoachB25, has, indeed, taught hitters from scratch who have excelled to very high levels, and is still doing so....

Come on CoachB25....come with it.

Bring up those quotes and those videos. Bring ALL of it.

Let's get to the bottom of it.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Chameleon, you would do much better in presenting your swing theory by sticking to what you know to be true....

Case in point is, I know for a fact that CoachB25, has, indeed, taught hitters from scratch who have excelled to very high levels....

Who?

Make sure they are the "from scratch" ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Met with Englishbey in person in Mar 06.

Had our conversion in Sep 06.

What do you thing we did in the spring and summer of 06, CoachB25?

I'll tell you. We did everything he suggested....even what we weren't doing before.

And it still doesn't work. Period. And he/you/others will never know it until he/you/others gets into the batters box.

All PCR, PCRW, ***** and Englishbey can do is drag the bat. They have figured out how to drag it a littel faster. But....drag is their main option.

I have a lot of kids in college that have proven differently. One in the Cape Cod League did exceedingly well. I have a baseball program and a feeder system that has proven differently. For a school system of 1,300 who plays over half of their games against schools of 2,000 or more, we do just fine with this. College coaches tend to recruit us hard and so, I'm guessing they aren't seeing the flaws. People on this board like SIBullets who have seen my players play during the summer are also impressed. Guess we'll just stay with something that works. BTW, I'm not saying that this system worked for your child. If not, move on as you have. No problem. However, promote what you believe and we're fine. Attack others and we're not.

It's all about you coach.

Do you really expect me to believe you've put in the necessary time with each and everyone of those players.

It isn't possible.

You make out a lineup card. You decide to bunt or not. And you make pitching changes.

Richard, you crack me up. Always changing the attack. Now, it is an attack on my coaching. Well, first and foremost, I'd say yes that I did take the time to coach each and everyone. Do they have to have ability? Well heck yes. I'm not saying that they are non-athletes that I turn into athletes. I will suggest that they have all been raised in this system and so, it's all that they know. Until recently when a couple of these kids went to play for SIBullets, all of these kids played in our system during both the school season and summer. For the most part, I coached them at both. Would they have had success without me. YES, THEY ARE GREAT KIDS THAT WORK HARD, ARE MAJOR COMPETITORS AND HIGHLY COACHABLE. They would have prospered even under your system.

quote:

Who?

It doesn't matter who....I know what I said to be very factual....You don't know what you said is a fact....

You would do much better to stick to what you do know to be true....

You might. I don't.

I live in his area. I could verify with names.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Met with Englishbey in person in Mar 06.

Had our conversion in Sep 06.

What do you thing we did in the spring and summer of 06, CoachB25?

I'll tell you. We did everything he suggested....even what we weren't doing before.

And it still doesn't work. Period. And he/you/others will never know it until he/you/others gets into the batters box.

All PCR, PCRW, ***** and Englishbey can do is drag the bat. They have figured out how to drag it a littel faster. But....drag is their main option.

I have a lot of kids in college that have proven differently. One in the Cape Cod League did exceedingly well. I have a baseball program and a feeder system that has proven differently. For a school system of 1,300 who plays over half of their games against schools of 2,000 or more, we do just fine with this. College coaches tend to recruit us hard and so, I'm guessing they aren't seeing the flaws. People on this board like SIBullets who have seen my players play during the summer are also impressed. Guess we'll just stay with something that works. BTW, I'm not saying that this system worked for your child. If not, move on as you have. No problem. However, promote what you believe and we're fine. Attack others and we're not.

It's all about you coach.

Do you really expect me to believe you've put in the necessary time with each and everyone of those players.

It isn't possible.

You make out a lineup card. You decide to bunt or not. And you make pitching changes.

Richard, you crack me up. Always changing the attack. Now, it is an attack on my coaching. Well, first and foremost, I'd say yes that I did take the time to coach each and everyone. Do they have to have ability? Well heck yes. I'm not saying that they are non-athletes that I turn into athletes. I will suggest that they have all been raised in this system and so, it's all that they know. Until recently when a couple of these kids went to play for SIBullets, all of these kids played in our system during both the school season and summer. For the most part, I coached them at both. Would they have had success without me. YES, THEY ARE GREAT KIDS THAT WORK HARD, ARE MAJOR COMPETITORS AND HIGHLY COACHABLE. They would have prospered even under your system.

Nice try coach but YOU are the one who turned the topic away from mechanics to "who you've coached".

Do I need to point out that you have been a PCR proponent for a short time.

Maybe 2 years at best. And you want us to believe that the kids in college were taught it by you?

Do you remember challenging me when I was a PCR proponent. That wasn't but a little over a year ago.

And we're supposed to beleive that your feeder program has fed you PCR hitters already.

Please.

I agree that the video of Chameleon's son is very telling.....Those videos, IMO, are truth in advertising.......

His swing has prospered with "stretch and fire" and "launch and spend".......Just the homerun stats, alone, are proof enough for me.......

So.....I get no names? lol

I'll answer a couple of whos since I know these kids will not mind. Mark Little made it to play in the major leagues and played for 5 different teams. Great kid and athlete. He would have been successful in any system to be honest.

Kevin Hoef will tell anyone and everyone about our system. I know that Coach Dahm at the U of Iowa is very impressed and hasn't changed Kevin. Kevin started at the U of Iowa since he was a freshman. Kevin just tore the Cape Cod League up (lead league until 5th week) until a high ankle sprain. He still ended up 5th in hitting. Coach Dahm's assistant often reads this site and so, if he disagrees with this statement, he can weigh in.

Aaron Conway is at Missouri State. Take a look at Sports stats and see how well he did. He's played in my system since he was in 4th grade. The same can be said of Ty Weisemeyer. Ask SIBullets what he thinks of Ty.

Finally, Brandon Adams is at Central Arkansas on a D-I ride. Conway, Weisemeyer, and Adams, are this year's group of outstanding talent. Yes, Richard you can check it out.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
I'll answer a couple of whos since I know these kids will not mind. Mark Little made it to play in the major leagues and played for 5 different teams. Great kid and athlete. He would have been successful in any system to be honest.

Kevin Hoef will tell anyone and everyone about our system. I know that Coach Dahm at the U of Iowa is very impressed and hasn't changed Kevin at all. Kevin started at the U of Iowa since he was a freshman. Kevin just tore the Cape Cod League up (lead league until 5th week) until a high ankle sprain. He still ended up 5th in hitting. Coach Dahm's assistant often reads this site and so, if he disagrees with this statement, he can weigh in.

Compare my 4:17p post with this quote and make your own decision.

quote:

Posted October 06, 2007 04:17 PM by Chameleon
Do I need to point out that you have been a PCR proponent for a short time.

Maybe 2 years at best. And you want us to believe that the kids in college were taught it by you?

Do you remember challenging me when I was a PCR proponent. That wasn't but a little over a year ago.

And we're supposed to beleive that your feeder program has fed you PCR hitters already.

Please.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
He's played in my system since he was in 4th grade.

When did his PCR training start?

You see Coach.......nothing you are pointing out stands up for PCR.

Does it.

And PCR and PCRW and their founders and it's failure to meet nor lead to the mlb pattern IS the issue.

See if you stay on topic you might look a little more honest.

Honesty has overtaken "hands along for the ride" and "turn the front hip into the rear hip and rear hip into the front hip" as PCR and PCRW's biggest challenge.

Notice the silence.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Do I need to point out that you have been a PCR proponent for a short time.

Maybe 2 years at best. And you want us to believe that the kids in college were taught it by you?

Do you remember challenging me when I was a PCR proponent. That wasn't but a year ago.

And we're supposed to beleive that your feeder program has fed you PCR hitters already.

Please.

Do you remember me sending you a "handout" entitled "Qualities of an Outstanding Hitter." This same handout was sent to Swingbuster and others. When Swingbuster critiqued it, he stated to me that I needed to check out ***** and Steve. In short, he stated that all that I had there was essentially what they believed and taught. BTW, Swingbuster did give a critique of said handout. He remained true to his convictions and critique. I can't remember if I emailed that sheet to Bluedog but I believe I did. It was after a discussion in which I asked Bluedog about his credentials. His answer back was something to the effect of saying that I was a high school coach didn't give any validity to the argument as to wheter I understood the swing process. If I remember correctly I then email that handout to him. I could be in error of this.

One example of that handout was the statement:

"Hands first, Hands last." In that argument with you while I believe you were "Lamber," you argued that the hands had no role in the swing. My statement back to you was that you had to set those hands off of the arm pit area and lock them in. I hadn't, at that time, heard of phrases such as "connection." When Steve and I discussed that same handout, essentially it was a rude/crude description of what he was presenting. Thus, I had discovered someone that thought/believed the same as I. That system is the same concept I've taught all along. I now feel that I've discovered a better way of teaching it. In other words, a better teaching style or format.

This "process" is no different than what you claim with your "second engine." In coaching, you see the pitfalls. You soon take those "Pitfalls" and try another way. I then translated those into a handout. While I was slightly off from ***** and Steve, it was very close. Another example was when I talked about the "Power V." I had never seen any of Epstein's stuff at that time. It was from observations. In discussing that, Steve mentioned his concept of "coming off of the merry-go-round." In doing a demonstration, and of which you did often to support Steve's stuff, I came to understand that we were talking about the same thing and that this "power-V" I was describing from observations was nothing like Epstein's. We just happened upon the same phrase.

Is it still a "fact".

lol

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
When Steve and I discussed that same handout, essentially it was a rude/crude description of what he was presenting.

Sounds just like "the hands just hold on to the d a m n bat" to me.

Sounds just like "the hands are along for the ride" to me.

lol


Were you talking to "professional" Steve or "dad" Steve?

lol

Can you guys take this to a chat room or something?

Jeez

Oh yeah....

Power V = "fly off the merry go round".

I can see it.....maybe.....after midnight.

From your own words as posted on Steve's site:


"When I met with Steve in Texas, the first thing I noticed, while standing live, next to Steve, was that his bat unhinged differently. I couldn't figure it out. I even asked hiim if he was "throwing the barrel" to the ball. Of course, that's not it. But, it wasn't until I saw Video #17 and saw the "swiveling" of the top hand as it sat on top of a vertical back forearm that I said "aha. We don't do that". You might recall the post I made when I first noticed it. Joof was working on the same or similar topic at the time. I asked Steve if it really does swivel like that and he said it did. Then, that clip of Manny really shows it. It was such a discovery for us that I thought it could help others. I have no doubt, that knowing this sooner would have made a huge difference in our "rate of learning". "

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
This "process" is no different than what you claim with your "second engine."

Please.

Turning the barrel rearward in your hands with your forearms at "go" is significantly different from pulling the knob with the shoulder's rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
Can you guys take this to a chat room or something?

Jeez

You're right. I apologize and will give it a break. Besides, homecoming tonight.

Take care,

Darrell

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
From your own words as posted on Steve's site:


"When I met with Steve in Texas, the first thing I noticed, while standing live, next to Steve, was that his bat unhinged differently. I couldn't figure it out. I even asked hiim if he was "throwing the barrel" to the ball. Of course, that's not it. But, it wasn't until I saw Video #17 and saw the "swiveling" of the top hand as it sat on top of a vertical back forearm that I said "aha. We don't do that". You might recall the post I made when I first noticed it. Joof was working on the same or similar topic at the time. I asked Steve if it really does swivel like that and he said it did. Then, that clip of Manny really shows it. It was such a discovery for us that I thought it could help others. I have no doubt, that knowing this sooner would have made a huge difference in our "rate of learning". "

You forgot to include that he now says the top hand does not swivel.....(be careful before you deny it....my "mole" has given me the video) and his posse goes to great lengths expressing that the barrel is not sent rearward at "go".....(see ShawnB's nonsense all over the net) and that they continually deny tht.....and that there is no forearm rotation.

Please be truthful.

P.S. I wonder if my "mole" signed the agreement? lol

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
Can you guys take this to a chat room or something?

Jeez

You're right. I apologize and will give it a break. Besides, homecoming tonight.

Take care,

Darrell

You're saved again, eh?

Anything but to discuss hitting.

Remember the talking points.....don't discuss hitting with him. Keep the conversation on him.

Got any more Kool Aid?

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
Can you guys take this to a chat room or something?

Jeez

Sorry Tripledad.

I thought you could control what you read and didn't read.

My bad.

IMO - You have both veered away from the issues - and veered directly into a discussion about yourselves - and your acumen.

Boring as Hell.
I think it sucks.

Talk hitting - most reasonable people - IMO - do not give a **** about what you did yesterday.

What are you doing today?
And what are you going to do tomorrow.

Save the boring biographies for some other place.

Discuss the issue.

IMO.

IMO - You have to feel it fellas.

You have to give some great advice - even if you disagree vehemently - but you have to do it for the right reason.

The kids out there - the HS and pre-HS kids - need the good stuff.

They dont need a play by play of your personal battle BS

They need good stuff.

People probably helped you - so you should help them.
And even if noone helped you - or even tried to hurt you - you should still try to help.

So ******* help.

Baseball - rescue me
Come forth and speak to me
Raise me up and don't let me fall
No man is my enemy
Its the offspeed pitches that imprison me
Baseball rescue me

Many strangers have I met
On the road to my regret
Many media men - SO LOST - who seek to find themselves in me
They ask me to reveal
The very thoughts THEY would conceal
Baseball rescue me

And the sun in the sky
Makes a shadow of you and I
Stretching out as the sun sinks in the sea
I'm here without a name
In the palace of my shame
I said, Baseball rescue me

In the cold mirror of a glass
I see my reflection pass
See the dark shades of what the media says I used to be
See the purple of their eyes
The scarlet of their LIES
Baseball rescue me

Yea, though I walk
In the valley of the shadow
Yea, I will fear no evil
I have cursed thy media rod and staff
They no longer comfort me
Baseball will rescue me

I said Baseball
Baseball - rescue me

I said Baseball
Climb up the mountains, said Baseball
I said Baseball, oh my Baseball
On the hill of the son
I'm on the eve of a storm
And the MEDIA and CYBER THINGS - Just say No.
I said Baseball, rescue me


Yeah, I'm here without a name
In the palace of my shame
I said, I love Baseball - me

I have conquered my media past
The future is here at last
I stand at the entrance
To a new world I can see
The media and cyber bs artists ruins to the right of me
HAVE NOW LOST SIGHT OF ME.

They are gone now. They are GONE.

Baseball rescue me

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
Chameleon, why don't you describe the PCR swing vs your swing item by item.

BTW: who are the gurus of the pcr swing? Do all rotational swing teachers, teach the PCR?

Good idea.

Here is a clip I made of PCR on the left and Second Engine on the right. Both swings are against the same pitcher....the best pitcher in our state....a year apart.

Just an observation - but the swing on the left looks "powerless" - the swing on the right looks "powerful".

Its tough for me - given that I couldnt care less about any guru - and that I have virtually no knowledge of the swing.

But it still isnt all that hard to see.

The swing on the left is hip driven. The swing on the right is hand driven.

Counter-intuitive.....but VERY true.

Be careful of the coach who teaches a go move in the hips.

Sorry but imo,the swing on the left is not hip driven,maybe it is supposed to be but it is not.IMO


His foot plant,hip rotation, shoulder and hand bat movement are almost at the exact same time.I don't see anything driving anything.


You can see the hips explode at foot plant on the right clip,that imo is what is driving the power.

It is irrelivant what is causing it,it is working and that is what needs to be done by any hitting coach.Find a way to communicate what is needed for the hitter to be succesful.

It is obvious that he has a better swing now.Why really isn't important.

Keep studying.

The hands dominate the entire right swing.

That will make sense to you some day.

And the "Why" is absolutely important.

Thats fine,but they do not supply the power.That comes from the hips.Atleast,not the MAJORITY of it.

My point is,getting the power is what is important.

Get out your video camera.

Pick up a bat.

Video yourself trying to duplicate the swing on the right.

Pay attention to details including the barrel.

Then tell us what you had to do to duplicate the swing.

You will be surprised at what creates what you see.

And the goal is to learn to teach....to get others to do.

Therefore you need to know what and how the hands cause the action that causes the power.

I am not arguing what creates what I see.

What I am saying is power is coming from the hips(and front leg load),now,the hands may or may not get them in motion but the power is still coming from the hips.


Talk in circles all you want but that is where the power comes from.Getting a hitter there is the important goal,not what hitting technique they utilize getting there.


You swear by using the hands,others swear by some other methods.If both get there and both are succesful,then THAT is what is important.


I quess I have been fortunate,my sons instructor doesn't teach any 1 method (atleast not that I am aware of).He teaches how rotatation works and how the rubber band works but preaches that there is no cookie cutter method to hitting.We are all different and we have to find what works to get there.

He does start with the box but even on the first day says it is just to teach how to get into proper position at contact.After that is learned,he could care less what you do to get there.(atleast at this point)

That is why I asked about what your son had learned and if they had anything to do with his succes now.

IMO,it has more to do with it than you would like to think.

Power comes from stretch....created by separation....created by proper hand resistance and their subsequent usage.

NOT from brute strength rotation or hip turn.....which consistently leaves the hands, and therefore the barrel, behind.

And, for the umpteeth time.....there is on box.

The hands. Chameleon is right on here. If you read what he is saying you will see that he has some very good information that kids can use.

Again,I said nothing of hip turn.I said power from the hips.


And, you can use a box to get into proper position at contact.

Doesn't mean it is the way you should get there but as a teaching method,can be very succesful.


I have coached techniques in other arenas and I can say that without a doubt.Sometimes what is being taught is to get to something else to help a person to be succesful.


Archery is what I coached and one of the most succesful tools I have used to teach it doesn't even require shooting the bow.

Here is the box in motion.




You can clearly see the box with the front arm or bottom hand.

I agree with you on the hands.I disagree with your methods of getting your point across.

There is no box maintained.

Look again.

There is a triangle....that is rotated.



I haven't marked on this one but it clearly shows the triangle being rotated just after the pause.



The hands form the apex...the two forearms and the chest form the triangle.

The legs of the triangle (the forearms) rotate around the apex (hands) as the lead arm pronates and the rear arm supinates.

If there were a box, and if it were maintained, then the lead arm would have to be pulled on by shoulder rotation. Problem is...there is no shoulder rotation in a high level swing. There IS lateral tilt of the shoulders....as the forearms rotate. And the hips rotate. And since the shoulders and torso rest on the hips it appears they rotate also. They do not.

P.S. Define motion.