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Didnt want to mess up the other threads with this twist.

One thing that I believe is a reality at the high school and collegiate level - now more than ever - is this:

The aluminum bat allows hitters to be successful without using many of the concepts you have so accurately (IMO) described.

Stretch and fire, the role and use of the hands, etc...

IMO - you can be successful (and subsequently be more resistant to change) using an aluminum bat - some strength and some hand/eye coordination - without utilizing the concepts you have presented.

But - then - you get the wood in your hand - you face the next level of pitching - and presto - your line drives into RCF become dribblers to the 2nd baseman.

Your bullets up the middle become "pick me ups" back to the pitcher.

The one thing I see that I dont like in HS and college aluminum bat baseball - more than anything else - is the "dead hands" swing.

I think the aluminum bat has been a major contributor to this.
You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. ~Jim Bouton, Ball Four, 1970
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If you want to see a REAL PATHETIC example of this watch girl's softball.

And I mean at it's highest level. DI...USA...Olympic team etc etc.

While there are a few good ones, I can count on one hand how many I've seen that could hit the grass with a woody.

And I like the game. I watch the WCWS every year. I like to see the players "go for it".

But the teaching has been SO bad over the years and now the new teacher is teaching them to drag the bat.
Agree - and let me add - you see "drag the bat" - but I have also seen alot of "throw the bat at the ball" as well.
Especially in HS and collegiate baseball.

And - with aluminum - it works for many.

Virtually no load - no "stretch and fire" - no torque.

Just take the bat - get your timing together - and throw the metal at the ball.

And bang.

You have a .200 hitter hitting .365

I think it sucks and I hate watching it.
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
If you want to see a REAL PATHETIC example of this watch girl's softball.

And I mean at it's highest level. DI...USA...Olympic team etc etc.

While there are a few good ones, I can count on one hand how many I've seen that could hit the grass with a woody.

And I like the game. I watch the WCWS every year. I like to see the players "go for it".

But the teaching has been SO bad over the years and now the new teacher is teaching them to drag the bat.


The metal to wood argument is never going to change in fast-pitch. Nor will it change soon at the collegiate or high school level in baseball. I will mention that conference at both levels experimented last year with wood in baseball. However, this isn't a gender issues. The minus numbers do affect the fast-pitch game a little more but then again, not in bat lag as much as other issues. You have players playing with -10 as a norm and some with -9. However, if lag was a real problem, then a hitter could go as much as -12 or more. I'd say that the best in D-I or on the Olympic team all use the -9 and -10. Per the not so veiled comment on the teacher, you could direct that at several teachers. FYI, the coaches at RVP (Candrea and Enquist) have a very similar approach to some other teachers of the game to whom I believe you refer. Of course I'm sure that you might suggest that they don't understand hitting. Perhaps you're going to finally get off of your assets and make that DVD and be counted. Then the general public can have that as a comparison to the others including all that are constantly refered to on this site.

When commenting on D-I and the Olympic Team, note that those institutions are comprised of the best players in the world. To suggest that there aren't any players that can hit in that group is simply absurd and was, what prompted this response. Perhaps the next absurd statement would include statements such as the beer league in St. Louis has better players. The best players from around the world come to America to play collegiate fast-pitch. Note the number of players in the Olympics that are mentioned as playing collegiate softball here! More than a handful can hit!!! Just my 2 cents!
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
Just my 2 cents!


Acknowleging your value does put your response into perspective.


Richard, you have to do better than that.

How about the validity of an argument where the bad weight ie. -9 or -10 adds another factor into the equation of bat lag and/or technique. How about an argument in relation to the comeback of wood. Beside, I'm worth more than 2 cents. Last I looked, when I die, the wife is going to do well. ((Now don't you get any ideas!!! Eek Wink ))
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
Richard, you have to do better than that.


Plenty adequate.

When you say something that makes sense I'll respond.

Until then, continue to support the teacher/teaching of bat drag.


Well, just supporting someone that now has a 1,000 members on his site and of whom supports his theories with research from some of the best out there. I would note that this research is from various fields and isn't your voodoo video. You point out in one thread Pujos. I can reference a site where you reference Pujos to support that teacher's theory. You reference Bonds. I can reference a hundred or more posts where you reference that teacher and how Bonds is the posterboy for that teacher and his theories. Not one to point out the obvious BUT you did too until you were booted from his site. It is amazing how a couple of weeks later you had this epiphany of how all that gentleman does is wrong and now you see the light. Your continued shots at him demonstrate that he hit a nerve and you can't let it go. Someone take away your toy? Sounds like a kid on the outside of the fence upset because he can't get in to play.

What is going to happen and perhaps soon is that you'll post enough here that he will come on this site and make a post or two. Of course you know that the chances of that are slim since he has business interest and copywrited materials that he needs to protect for his job while you refuse to take a stand, produce a video, go out and be a speaker on your theories and so, you thrive in the world of internet hitting guru. What do you have to lose? ...and for the hundredth time, if your "stuff" is so good then why aren't all of the people here joining your site? I find it amazing that you have to post here and on other sites like eteamz etc. when you have your own private site.
When speaking of fast pitch hitting and the aluminmum bat issue.You MUST bring into the argument the much heavier ball being thrown slower.Also the ball is softer.


With all these things added,the ball isn't going to be hit nearly as hard or travel nearly as far so allowing the aluminum only makes since.

I personally feel some of these girls are amazing hitters,no matter what hitting style or bats they use.To get that big, heavy, slow ball to travel the way some do with relatively small frames.


What is the rule on bats in high school baseball in most states? Here,I believe it is -3.Not wood but still takes a pretty good high scool hitter to swing well with.imo
Last edited by tfox
CoachB25, I think it's only fair that I say this since many people are reading what is being said here......

What happened between Chameleon and the other person in question is more than just getting kicked off his site.....There is alot more to this story....There is always two sides to every disagreement.......Which story someone wishes to believe is, well, entirely up to them, IMO......

I will say this as per Chameleon taking shots at the other guy....The other guy takes his fair share of shots at Chameleon and those who asociate with him, also....This I know as a fact....

As per science and experts......I really don't believe anyone can "accurately" claim they know what MLB hitters are scientifically doing with their body when swinging a bat......Then, there are "semantics" involved which can be used to further cloud the issue, scientifically (supposedely), or otherwise.......

As per Chameleon's past hitting theory beliefs.....It's null and void, as it was only a part of his journey of continually learning.....He disproved that stuff, at least in his mind......So have some others, as you know.....

Now, I will allow that Chameleon's bedside manner is, well, we know what it is......I'm sure nobody will argue there is lots of room for improvement......

As per the other person in question posting on here....I'm sure Chameleon would welcome that happening.....I can say, so would I......He can bring his "science" and have a discussion anytime......I would think Chameleon, Tom and a few others would look forward to the opportunity to debate swing theory with him on here..... Smile
Last edited by BlueDog
Dog,

I think it is getting alot better because many people that contribute here are starting to realize that virtually no human being wants to be lectured to or talked down to.

Even in cyber world.

This board has always had a wealth of knowledge - and a wealth of lively debate - on just about every baseball subject imaginable.

Lets hope we all continue to express ourselves truthfully - debate lively - and keep the personal attack stuff far away.

It would be a wasted opportunity to do otherwise IMO.
As is well known....I was a PCR/PCRW Kool Aid drinker......chugger. Aggressive proponent.

For a long time.

Long enough to be told I knew the stuff better than anyone else.

So long a time to be afforded ample time to use it. Both my son and myself.

So long a time that the evidence was clear that it doesn't work. (HINT: Ask them why virtually all the clips they post are of tee work. Let me answer the question.....because NONE of them have been in a batters box since they started promoting their junk)

So long a time that we trial and erred our way to the mlb pattern. A pattern completely different than PCR/PCRW.

We spent 6 years PCR/PCRWing. Couldn't "get there".

We spent a few weeks early this summer working on the Second Engine and had immediate results.

My son had never hit a HR before in his life. He hit 6 this past summer. Including one of only two to EVER be hit out of right field in a certain park we play in. He filled the gaps with 2B's. He hit the best pitchers he'd ever seen. Got picked up by "tournament teams" for weekend play.

I have no explanation for the timing of our "find" other than I had been "enamored with" smart sounding stuff from people who like to tell you how smart they were. And because of that I didn't follow my instincts. I trusted the "smart sounding" stuff....even though trial and error was dissenting.

Smart sounding stuff like....big muscles doing the work....kinetic chain....shoulder rotation....swing plane in line with shoulder turn....etc etc.

All sounds smart.

Problem is it doesn't work.

So.....we flew the coup.....and decided to do what we found that worked.

I have heavily promoted what works. They don't like to hear it. They really don't like to hear about our success. lol.

I have admitted....several times....that I was wrong in the past about PCR/PCRW.

Here is the first time...

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=355&st=0

When will they? When will you Coach25....oh yeah, that's right....you won't take a stand. Stay safe.

Several of us have admitted our belief in PCR was wrong. We have admitted that Tom.guerry and Swingbuster were right all along.

When will they?

Because the evidence is simply overwhelming.

PCR/PCRW have two options. Drag the bat or pull off the ball. ANY swing that is swung with shoulder turn is subject to those two options.

Now, Coach25....will YOU enter a hitting discussion versus a personality discussion.

Your history says you won't.

I know why. Should I tell them.

Our Journey Documented

The top row of clips is one clip per year from soph in high school to soph in college.

The rest are from this summer.

The difference is stunning. Not just in results but also in video comparison. He is now within the high level mlb pattern. He was far from it before. You can see the bat drag in the top row of clips. Why? Because they tell you the hands are "along for the ride". That they "just hang on to the d a m n bat". Their exact words. Their exact belief. (of course, they really have two answers to this issue....one for us dads and one for the professional players that insist the hands play a role....and they got caught offering two answers to the same question....and they like to blame me....I guess because I exposed them) Not only do they teach the hands wrong...they also teach the lower body wrong. Separation is of utmost importance. They say it matters not...that it occurs naturally at launch (can you say slop in the swing....slack in the swing) if you do this and that. COMPLETE NONSENSE evidenced by virtually ALL of their students spinning. They never show the high level mlb pattern. Telling someone to "stay closed" until "go" is simply killing that student. The hips HAVE TO CLEAR before you can swing. The hips HAVE TO OPEN BEFORE GO to create separation. Yet they continually say.....turn the front hip into the rear hip...keep the front knee closed....

NONE of their nonsense is supported by video of the best....yet they continually say let that be your guide.

I finally did. Only cost us 6 years.

As to the "research they do"....that is really funny.

Virtually none of the people they read have spent any significant time in the batters box. They read "trainers" stuff and think that will help them with "hitting mechanics". They read "how the body generates power" but have never read "how the body generates power in the batters box".

Sorry, but they continue to do what I did. They listen to "smart sounding people".

Problem is those smart sounding people have never been in the batters box.

And then, in their arrogance, they ignore what people who make millions swinging a bat have to say.

You decide.
Last edited by Chameleon
Only got a minute, but would like to say this…

What has caused me to gain a lot of respect for people like Chameleon, Bluedog and others on here, is the fact that they’ve actually changed their minds about some things over the past few years. It would be very interesting to go back a few years and read the posts. But there’s no need for that.

I think those who end up being the best or most knowledgeable are those who keep searching. None of us will ever know everything there is to know, but we can keep searching. While at times it appears Chameleon’s actions/words sound like that of a know it all. I don’t think he is yet satisfied with what he knows. That is a good thing, in my book. It’s why I try to read all his posts, even the sarcastic ones!
Chameleon,do you think it is possible he learned this high level mlb swing so quickly is because of the mechanics learned from the other methods?


I believe what you preach and what the others say are more similar than different.


I personally feel that the other methods are building blocks and should be utilized as such.

I told my son to try to hold the bat and just float his hands as you describe it and he changed no mechanics from what he has been learning(he did add stride,which is something he hasn't made his mind up on yet) but he did seem to have better timing which will always equate to better results.

It was only 1 game and against the best pitcher in his league.Results were good but I will have to wait untill next year to let him work out what best fits HIM.
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
My intention for this new topic was to generate discussion regarding the use of aluminum bats - and their effects (if any) on learning solid hitting mechanics.

My intention wasnt to create a cyber slam contest.

Wink


and I apologize but will no longer let Richard take shots at another without firing back. His comments were noted and no response would have been given by me until the shot at that other person.
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
Chameleon,do you think it is possible he learned this high level mlb swing so quickly is because of the mechanics learned from the other methods?


Impossible. He does nothing that he used to do.

His new swing is completely upper body controlled. The old swing was lower body controlled.

I would say he learned it quickly because it's really pretty simple. Snap the Pole.

Those who teach hitting for a living need to make it hard so they can keep selling stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
My intention for this new topic was to generate discussion regarding the use of aluminum bats - and their effects (if any) on learning solid hitting mechanics.

My intention wasnt to create a cyber slam contest.

Wink


and I apologize but will no longer let Richard take shots at another without firing back. His comments were noted and no response would have been given by me until the shot at that other person.


Again....another PCR apologist who will not enter the arena of ideas. Just protecting his buddy....no matter how wrong he is.
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
CoachB25, I think it's only fair that I say this since many people are reading what is being said here......


Bluedog, I understand your need to respond just as I have responded. Again, and as I mentioned in my response to Its, I would not have said anything had the reference to Steve been left out. I've sat back long enough. Richard has his own site and he will have to use it soon.

quote:
What happened between Chameleon and the other person in question is more than just getting kicked off his site.....There is alot more to this story....There is always two sides to every disagreement.......Which story someone wishes to believe is, well, entirely up to them, IMO......


I also agree with the exception that I have Richard's own posts to back my assertions. Quotes like his response on Steve's site where he stated that he didn't do a couple of things per what Steve meant when he suggested... I have the permisssion to post those comments but with the exception of one time, have avoided doing so.

quote:
I will say this as per Chameleon taking shots at the other guy....The other guy takes his fair share of shots at Chameleon and those who asociate with him, also....This I know as a fact....
Yes, this is a fact but then realize that Steve does this on his own site. I've never seen him do this on any other site. Any such remarks by the way have ALWAYS been followed by Steve citing scientific research/documents where any reader of his site can reference said material to see if they gleened out of that reference what Steve did. That is one of the traits that I've admired about Steve. He makes a statement and references a point of research but also encourages the members of his site to look it up. Again Steve could come on here and is registered here. However, for him to argue back with Richard would be to also reveal those thoughts/drills/research which determines his occupation and which is also the great benefit of his private site. Therefore, Richard is getting away with all of this without Steve being able to come on here (public site) to defend himself.

quote:
As per science and experts......I really don't believe anyone can "accurately" claim they know what MLB hitters are scientifically doing with their body when swinging a bat......Then, there are "semantics" involved which can be used to further cloud the issue, scientifically (supposedely), or otherwise.......
Very telling statement and as you know we've talked about this at length. Yes, we both agree that this is a learning process and that you can find very similar traits in MLB hitters at points in the swing process and then also find positions in the swing where they are not similar. The trick then is to establish what you might call your "base" and go from there on teaching what you believe. That is why you've been at this for a long time. You have your belief and I respect that. Richard does to and I'd leave him alone should he cease his attacks on Steve. I've felt like I'm doing a disservice to a friend by letting Richard get away with some of these attacks and will no longer look the other way. Should he decide to stop the attacks on Steve, he can say what he wants and I'll take a back seat and let everyone else determine their own belief system.


quote:
As per Chameleon's past hitting theory beliefs.....It's null and void, as it was only a part of his journey of continually learning.....He disproved that stuff, at least in his mind......So have some others, as you know.....
Bluedog, those of us, like you, have been through a process. Epstein, Hudgens, Peavy, et. all have influenced our thought process regarding what we like or dislike. I don't have a problem with that. You know much of my journey and you know that I've made some questionable assertions along the line. I don't deny that. Richard can believe what he wants. I could care less but, and again, I'm going to stop the attacks on Steve. If Richard can avoid those references, he can post till the cows come home on what he believes and I'll sit back.

quote:
Now, I will allow that Chameleon's bedside manner is, well, we know what it is......I'm sure nobody will argue there is lots of room for improvement......


Bluedog, we both know I'm not an innocent participant in this argument. I have my dark side as well. As a moderator on this site, I've stayed in the background. I won't from now on when he mentions Steve or PCR. I don't attempt to force any belief on anyone.

quote:
As per the other person in question posting on here....I'm sure Chameleon would welcome that happening.....I can say, so would I......He can bring his "science" and have a discussion anytime......I would think Chameleon, Tom and a few others would look forward to the opportunity to debate swing theory with him on here..... Smile


Yes, that would be great for our readers. However, and again, that would be bad for Steve in that he'd take public those thoughts, ideas, drills, research, works in progress that make belonging to his Private site unique. If I were him, I wouldn't do that. Why join his site if you can get all of the info for free. It is his business. A business, I might add, that is booming. More than a few people want to know what the stir is about.
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Chameleon, why don't you describe the PCR swing vs your swing item by item.

BTW: who are the gurus of the pcr swing? Do all rotational swing teachers, teach the PCR?


Good idea.

Here is a clip I made of PCR on the left and Second Engine on the right. Both swings are against the same pitcher....the best pitcher in our state....a year apart.

Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Chameleon, why don't you describe the PCR swing vs your swing item by item.

BTW: who are the gurus of the pcr swing? Do all rotational swing teachers, teach the PCR?


TripleDad, any member of Steve's site such as myself have signed agreements not to discuss those drills, technique (poor choice of words since PCR is a process and not a technique) etc. I'd recommend that if you're truly interested, type Englishbey hitting into your search engine and then go sign up for the public site. There is a bunch of info contained there and I'm sure you'd find the thread, "What the hell is PCR?" to be interesting.

JMHO!
Met with Englishbey in person in Mar 06.

Had our conversion in Sep 06.

What do you thing we did in the spring and summer of 06, CoachB25?

I'll tell you. We did everything he suggested....even what we weren't doing before.

And it still doesn't work. Period. And he/you/others will never know it until he/you/others gets into the batters box.

All PCR, PCRW, ***** and Englishbey can do is drag the bat. They have figured out how to drag it a littel faster. But....drag is their main option.
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Chameleon, why don't you describe the PCR swing vs your swing item by item.

BTW: who are the gurus of the pcr swing? Do all rotational swing teachers, teach the PCR?


Good idea.

Here is a clip I made of PCR on the left and Second Engine on the right. Both swings are against the same pitcher....the best pitcher in our state....a year apart.



That's like saying that when John John swings and hits the ball it's because I've coached him and when he swings and misses the ball it's the coach's fault. So many flaws in this argument I start with type, location, etc. of the pitch unless you have a magical formulas for saying that these pitches were exactly the same speed and location a year apart and that the pitcher didn't make any changes.

Per commenting on your son's swing, I'm never going to do that. I have never and will never bring your child into this argument.

OH AND HE CENSORSHIP LINE, YOU PROMISED THAT YOU WOULD CREATE A PUBLIC SITE OPEN FOR ALL AND WOULD NEVER CENSOR ANYONE. YOU THREW SOMEONE OFF OF THAT SITE WITHIN THE FIRST TWO WEEKS.
Last edited by CoachB25
Tripledad.

Here are some differences between PCR and the mlb pattern

1) Hips do not remain closed until "go". They separate against the upper body prior to "go".
2) Hands are not "along for the ride". They torque the barrel at "go".
3) Lead leg and knee does not remain closed until "go". They open.
4) Knob is not pulled...the barrel is turned.
5) The shoulders do not rotate...they laterally tilt.
6) There is no "box" that is maintained. There is a triangle that is rotated.
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
Met with Englishbey in person in Mar 06.

Had our conversion in Sep 06.

What do you thing we did in the spring and summer of 06, CoachB25?

I'll tell you. We did everything he suggested....even what we weren't doing before.

And it still doesn't work. Period. And he/you/others will never know it until he/you/others gets into the batters box.

All PCR, PCRW, ***** and Englishbey can do is drag the bat. They have figured out how to drag it a littel faster. But....drag is their main option.


I have a lot of kids in college that have proven differently. One in the Cape Cod League did exceedingly well. I have a baseball program and a feeder system that has proven differently. For a school system of 1,300 who plays over half of their games against schools of 2,000 or more, we do just fine with this. College coaches tend to recruit us hard and so, I'm guessing they aren't seeing the flaws. People on this board like SIBullets who have seen my players play during the summer are also impressed. Guess we'll just stay with something that works. BTW, I'm not saying that this system worked for your child. If not, move on as you have. No problem. However, promote what you believe and we're fine. Attack others and we're not.
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
Tripledad.

Here are some differences between PCR and the mlb pattern

1) Hips do not remain closed until "go". They separate against the upper body prior to "go".
2) Hands are not "along for the ride". They torque the barrel at "go".
3) Lead leg and knee does not remain closed until "go". They open.
4) Knob is not pulled...the barrel is turned.
5) The shoulders do not rotate...they laterally tilt.
6) There is no "box" that is maintained. There is a triangle that is rotated.


Now TripleDad go to Steve's site and see if this is what he says in the thread, "What the hell is PCR?" You decide from what Richard says is PCR and what Steve says. I'm betting you're going to see some drastic differences.
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Chameleon, why don't you describe the PCR swing vs your swing item by item.

BTW: who are the gurus of the pcr swing? Do all rotational swing teachers, teach the PCR?


Good idea.

Here is a clip I made of PCR on the left and Second Engine on the right. Both swings are against the same pitcher....the best pitcher in our state....a year apart.





Just an observation - but the swing on the left looks "powerless" - the swing on the right looks "powerful".

Its tough for me - given that I couldnt care less about any guru - and that I have virtually no knowledge of the swing.

But it still isnt all that hard to see.

Wink
Last edited by itsinthegame
Its, there are several way that vodoo video can give this impression. Not the least of which is the amount of time between frames or how long the frame is displayed. Also important are camera angle, pitch location, type of pitch etc. For example, take two swings from any MLB Player. Given video at 60 fps, the hitter that is sitting and hitting dead red looks impressive. The hitter that is sitting dead red and gets a ball either out of the zone they are looking in or off spead looks terrible. You can't tell from this video either pitch speed, location, type of pitch ... JMHO! Also, let's face it, David Ecstein hits a ball out once in a while.
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
Met with Englishbey in person in Mar 06.

Had our conversion in Sep 06.

What do you thing we did in the spring and summer of 06, CoachB25?

I'll tell you. We did everything he suggested....even what we weren't doing before.

And it still doesn't work. Period. And he/you/others will never know it until he/you/others gets into the batters box.

All PCR, PCRW, ***** and Englishbey can do is drag the bat. They have figured out how to drag it a littel faster. But....drag is their main option.


I have a lot of kids in college that have proven differently. One in the Cape Cod League did exceedingly well. I have a baseball program and a feeder system that has proven differently. For a school system of 1,300 who plays over half of their games against schools of 2,000 or more, we do just fine with this. College coaches tend to recruit us hard and so, I'm guessing they aren't seeing the flaws. People on this board like SIBullets who have seen my players play during the summer are also impressed. Guess we'll just stay with something that works. BTW, I'm not saying that this system worked for your child. If not, move on as you have. No problem. However, promote what you believe and we're fine. Attack others and we're not.


It's all about you coach.

Do you really expect me to believe you've put in the necessary time with each and everyone of those players.

It isn't possible.

You make out a lineup card. You decide to bunt or not. And you make pitching changes.
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
Tripledad.

Here are some differences between PCR and the mlb pattern

1) Hips do not remain closed until "go". They separate against the upper body prior to "go".
2) Hands are not "along for the ride". They torque the barrel at "go".
3) Lead leg and knee does not remain closed until "go". They open.
4) Knob is not pulled...the barrel is turned.
5) The shoulders do not rotate...they laterally tilt.
6) There is no "box" that is maintained. There is a triangle that is rotated.


Now TripleDad go to Steve's site and see if this is what he says in the thread, "What the hell is PCR?" You decide from what Richard says is PCR and what Steve says. I'm betting you're going to see some drastic differences.


PCR is a blueprint.

lol

ROFLAMMFAO

As he tries to distance himself from it.
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Chameleon, why don't you describe the PCR swing vs your swing item by item.

BTW: who are the gurus of the pcr swing? Do all rotational swing teachers, teach the PCR?


Good idea.

Here is a clip I made of PCR on the left and Second Engine on the right. Both swings are against the same pitcher....the best pitcher in our state....a year apart.





Just an observation - but the swing on the left looks "powerless" - the swing on the right looks "powerful".

Its tough for me - given that I couldnt care less about any guru - and that I have virtually no knowledge of the swing.

But it still isnt all that hard to see.

Wink


The swing on the left is hip driven. The swing on the right is hand driven.

Counter-intuitive.....but VERY true.

Be careful of the coach who teaches a go move in the hips.
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Yes, this is a fact but then realize that Steve does this on his own site. I've never seen him do this on any other site.


CoachB25, in all fairness to this discussion, I want you to know that I do understand where you're coming from....That being said.........

I do know as a confirmed fact that he has made very personal attacks on this site.....And, I do stress, very personal attacks.....
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
Its, there are several way that vodoo video can give this impression. Not the least of which is the amount of time between frames or how long the frame is displayed. Also important are camera angle, pitch location, type of pitch etc. For example, take two swings from any MLB Player. Given video at 60 fps, the hitter that is sitting and hitting dead red looks impressive. The hitter that is sitting dead red and gets a ball either out of the zone they are looking in or off spead looks terrible. You can't tell from this video either pitch speed, location, type of pitch ... JMHO! Also, let's face it, David Ecstein hits a ball out once in a while.


You forgot to quote Bernstein, Dixon and Siff.

lol
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
Chameleon, you would do much better in presenting your swing theory by sticking to what you know to be true....

Case in point is, I know for a fact that CoachB25, has, indeed, taught hitters from scratch who have excelled to very high levels....


Who?

Make sure they are the "from scratch" ones.
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
Met with Englishbey in person in Mar 06.

Had our conversion in Sep 06.

What do you thing we did in the spring and summer of 06, CoachB25?

I'll tell you. We did everything he suggested....even what we weren't doing before.

And it still doesn't work. Period. And he/you/others will never know it until he/you/others gets into the batters box.

All PCR, PCRW, ***** and Englishbey can do is drag the bat. They have figured out how to drag it a littel faster. But....drag is their main option.


I have a lot of kids in college that have proven differently. One in the Cape Cod League did exceedingly well. I have a baseball program and a feeder system that has proven differently. For a school system of 1,300 who plays over half of their games against schools of 2,000 or more, we do just fine with this. College coaches tend to recruit us hard and so, I'm guessing they aren't seeing the flaws. People on this board like SIBullets who have seen my players play during the summer are also impressed. Guess we'll just stay with something that works. BTW, I'm not saying that this system worked for your child. If not, move on as you have. No problem. However, promote what you believe and we're fine. Attack others and we're not.


It's all about you coach.

Do you really expect me to believe you've put in the necessary time with each and everyone of those players.

It isn't possible.

You make out a lineup card. You decide to bunt or not. And you make pitching changes.


Richard, you crack me up. Always changing the attack. Now, it is an attack on my coaching. Well, first and foremost, I'd say yes that I did take the time to coach each and everyone. Do they have to have ability? Well heck yes. I'm not saying that they are non-athletes that I turn into athletes. I will suggest that they have all been raised in this system and so, it's all that they know. Until recently when a couple of these kids went to play for SIBullets, all of these kids played in our system during both the school season and summer. For the most part, I coached them at both. Would they have had success without me. YES, THEY ARE GREAT KIDS THAT WORK HARD, ARE MAJOR COMPETITORS AND HIGHLY COACHABLE. They would have prospered even under your system.
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
Met with Englishbey in person in Mar 06.

Had our conversion in Sep 06.

What do you thing we did in the spring and summer of 06, CoachB25?

I'll tell you. We did everything he suggested....even what we weren't doing before.

And it still doesn't work. Period. And he/you/others will never know it until he/you/others gets into the batters box.

All PCR, PCRW, ***** and Englishbey can do is drag the bat. They have figured out how to drag it a littel faster. But....drag is their main option.


I have a lot of kids in college that have proven differently. One in the Cape Cod League did exceedingly well. I have a baseball program and a feeder system that has proven differently. For a school system of 1,300 who plays over half of their games against schools of 2,000 or more, we do just fine with this. College coaches tend to recruit us hard and so, I'm guessing they aren't seeing the flaws. People on this board like SIBullets who have seen my players play during the summer are also impressed. Guess we'll just stay with something that works. BTW, I'm not saying that this system worked for your child. If not, move on as you have. No problem. However, promote what you believe and we're fine. Attack others and we're not.


It's all about you coach.

Do you really expect me to believe you've put in the necessary time with each and everyone of those players.

It isn't possible.

You make out a lineup card. You decide to bunt or not. And you make pitching changes.


Richard, you crack me up. Always changing the attack. Now, it is an attack on my coaching. Well, first and foremost, I'd say yes that I did take the time to coach each and everyone. Do they have to have ability? Well heck yes. I'm not saying that they are non-athletes that I turn into athletes. I will suggest that they have all been raised in this system and so, it's all that they know. Until recently when a couple of these kids went to play for SIBullets, all of these kids played in our system during both the school season and summer. For the most part, I coached them at both. Would they have had success without me. YES, THEY ARE GREAT KIDS THAT WORK HARD, ARE MAJOR COMPETITORS AND HIGHLY COACHABLE. They would have prospered even under your system.


Nice try coach but YOU are the one who turned the topic away from mechanics to "who you've coached".
Do I need to point out that you have been a PCR proponent for a short time.

Maybe 2 years at best. And you want us to believe that the kids in college were taught it by you?

Do you remember challenging me when I was a PCR proponent. That wasn't but a little over a year ago.

And we're supposed to beleive that your feeder program has fed you PCR hitters already.

Please.
Last edited by Chameleon
I'll answer a couple of whos since I know these kids will not mind. Mark Little made it to play in the major leagues and played for 5 different teams. Great kid and athlete. He would have been successful in any system to be honest.

Kevin Hoef will tell anyone and everyone about our system. I know that Coach Dahm at the U of Iowa is very impressed and hasn't changed Kevin. Kevin started at the U of Iowa since he was a freshman. Kevin just tore the Cape Cod League up (lead league until 5th week) until a high ankle sprain. He still ended up 5th in hitting. Coach Dahm's assistant often reads this site and so, if he disagrees with this statement, he can weigh in.

Aaron Conway is at Missouri State. Take a look at Sports stats and see how well he did. He's played in my system since he was in 4th grade. The same can be said of Ty Weisemeyer. Ask SIBullets what he thinks of Ty.

Finally, Brandon Adams is at Central Arkansas on a D-I ride. Conway, Weisemeyer, and Adams, are this year's group of outstanding talent. Yes, Richard you can check it out.
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
I'll answer a couple of whos since I know these kids will not mind. Mark Little made it to play in the major leagues and played for 5 different teams. Great kid and athlete. He would have been successful in any system to be honest.

Kevin Hoef will tell anyone and everyone about our system. I know that Coach Dahm at the U of Iowa is very impressed and hasn't changed Kevin at all. Kevin started at the U of Iowa since he was a freshman. Kevin just tore the Cape Cod League up (lead league until 5th week) until a high ankle sprain. He still ended up 5th in hitting. Coach Dahm's assistant often reads this site and so, if he disagrees with this statement, he can weigh in.


Compare my 4:17p post with this quote and make your own decision.


quote:
Posted October 06, 2007 04:17 PM by Chameleon
Do I need to point out that you have been a PCR proponent for a short time.

Maybe 2 years at best. And you want us to believe that the kids in college were taught it by you?

Do you remember challenging me when I was a PCR proponent. That wasn't but a little over a year ago.

And we're supposed to beleive that your feeder program has fed you PCR hitters already.

Please.
Last edited by Chameleon
You see Coach.......nothing you are pointing out stands up for PCR.

Does it.

And PCR and PCRW and their founders and it's failure to meet nor lead to the mlb pattern IS the issue.

See if you stay on topic you might look a little more honest.

Honesty has overtaken "hands along for the ride" and "turn the front hip into the rear hip and rear hip into the front hip" as PCR and PCRW's biggest challenge.

Notice the silence.
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
Do I need to point out that you have been a PCR proponent for a short time.

Maybe 2 years at best. And you want us to believe that the kids in college were taught it by you?

Do you remember challenging me when I was a PCR proponent. That wasn't but a year ago.

And we're supposed to beleive that your feeder program has fed you PCR hitters already.

Please.


Do you remember me sending you a "handout" entitled "Qualities of an Outstanding Hitter." This same handout was sent to Swingbuster and others. When Swingbuster critiqued it, he stated to me that I needed to check out ***** and Steve. In short, he stated that all that I had there was essentially what they believed and taught. BTW, Swingbuster did give a critique of said handout. He remained true to his convictions and critique. I can't remember if I emailed that sheet to Bluedog but I believe I did. It was after a discussion in which I asked Bluedog about his credentials. His answer back was something to the effect of saying that I was a high school coach didn't give any validity to the argument as to wheter I understood the swing process. If I remember correctly I then email that handout to him. I could be in error of this.

One example of that handout was the statement:

"Hands first, Hands last." In that argument with you while I believe you were "Lamber," you argued that the hands had no role in the swing. My statement back to you was that you had to set those hands off of the arm pit area and lock them in. I hadn't, at that time, heard of phrases such as "connection." When Steve and I discussed that same handout, essentially it was a rude/crude description of what he was presenting. Thus, I had discovered someone that thought/believed the same as I. That system is the same concept I've taught all along. I now feel that I've discovered a better way of teaching it. In other words, a better teaching style or format.

This "process" is no different than what you claim with your "second engine." In coaching, you see the pitfalls. You soon take those "Pitfalls" and try another way. I then translated those into a handout. While I was slightly off from ***** and Steve, it was very close. Another example was when I talked about the "Power V." I had never seen any of Epstein's stuff at that time. It was from observations. In discussing that, Steve mentioned his concept of "coming off of the merry-go-round." In doing a demonstration, and of which you did often to support Steve's stuff, I came to understand that we were talking about the same thing and that this "power-V" I was describing from observations was nothing like Epstein's. We just happened upon the same phrase.
Last edited by CoachB25
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
When Steve and I discussed that same handout, essentially it was a rude/crude description of what he was presenting.


Sounds just like "the hands just hold on to the d a m n bat" to me.

Sounds just like "the hands are along for the ride" to me.

lol


Were you talking to "professional" Steve or "dad" Steve?

lol
Last edited by Chameleon
From your own words as posted on Steve's site:


"When I met with Steve in Texas, the first thing I noticed, while standing live, next to Steve, was that his bat unhinged differently. I couldn't figure it out. I even asked hiim if he was "throwing the barrel" to the ball. Of course, that's not it. But, it wasn't until I saw Video #17 and saw the "swiveling" of the top hand as it sat on top of a vertical back forearm that I said "aha. We don't do that". You might recall the post I made when I first noticed it. Joof was working on the same or similar topic at the time. I asked Steve if it really does swivel like that and he said it did. Then, that clip of Manny really shows it. It was such a discovery for us that I thought it could help others. I have no doubt, that knowing this sooner would have made a huge difference in our "rate of learning". "
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
From your own words as posted on Steve's site:


"When I met with Steve in Texas, the first thing I noticed, while standing live, next to Steve, was that his bat unhinged differently. I couldn't figure it out. I even asked hiim if he was "throwing the barrel" to the ball. Of course, that's not it. But, it wasn't until I saw Video #17 and saw the "swiveling" of the top hand as it sat on top of a vertical back forearm that I said "aha. We don't do that". You might recall the post I made when I first noticed it. Joof was working on the same or similar topic at the time. I asked Steve if it really does swivel like that and he said it did. Then, that clip of Manny really shows it. It was such a discovery for us that I thought it could help others. I have no doubt, that knowing this sooner would have made a huge difference in our "rate of learning". "


You forgot to include that he now says the top hand does not swivel.....(be careful before you deny it....my "mole" has given me the video) and his posse goes to great lengths expressing that the barrel is not sent rearward at "go".....(see ShawnB's nonsense all over the net) and that they continually deny tht.....and that there is no forearm rotation.

Please be truthful.

P.S. I wonder if my "mole" signed the agreement? lol
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Can you guys take this to a chat room or something?

Jeez


You're right. I apologize and will give it a break. Besides, homecoming tonight.

Take care,

Darrell


You're saved again, eh?

Anything but to discuss hitting.

Remember the talking points.....don't discuss hitting with him. Keep the conversation on him.

Got any more Kool Aid?
Last edited by Chameleon
IMO - You have both veered away from the issues - and veered directly into a discussion about yourselves - and your acumen.

Boring as Hell.
I think it sucks.

Talk hitting - most reasonable people - IMO - do not give a **** about what you did yesterday.

What are you doing today?
And what are you going to do tomorrow.

Save the boring biographies for some other place.

Discuss the issue.

IMO.
IMO - You have to feel it fellas.

You have to give some great advice - even if you disagree vehemently - but you have to do it for the right reason.

The kids out there - the HS and pre-HS kids - need the good stuff.

They dont need a play by play of your personal battle BS

They need good stuff.

People probably helped you - so you should help them.
And even if noone helped you - or even tried to hurt you - you should still try to help.

So ******* help.

Baseball - rescue me
Come forth and speak to me
Raise me up and don't let me fall
No man is my enemy
Its the offspeed pitches that imprison me
Baseball rescue me

Many strangers have I met
On the road to my regret
Many media men - SO LOST - who seek to find themselves in me
They ask me to reveal
The very thoughts THEY would conceal
Baseball rescue me

And the sun in the sky
Makes a shadow of you and I
Stretching out as the sun sinks in the sea
I'm here without a name
In the palace of my shame
I said, Baseball rescue me

In the cold mirror of a glass
I see my reflection pass
See the dark shades of what the media says I used to be
See the purple of their eyes
The scarlet of their LIES
Baseball rescue me

Yea, though I walk
In the valley of the shadow
Yea, I will fear no evil
I have cursed thy media rod and staff
They no longer comfort me
Baseball will rescue me

I said Baseball
Baseball - rescue me

I said Baseball
Climb up the mountains, said Baseball
I said Baseball, oh my Baseball
On the hill of the son
I'm on the eve of a storm
And the MEDIA and CYBER THINGS - Just say No.
I said Baseball, rescue me


Yeah, I'm here without a name
In the palace of my shame
I said, I love Baseball - me

I have conquered my media past
The future is here at last
I stand at the entrance
To a new world I can see
The media and cyber bs artists ruins to the right of me
HAVE NOW LOST SIGHT OF ME.

They are gone now. They are GONE.

Baseball rescue me
Last edited by itsinthegame
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Chameleon, why don't you describe the PCR swing vs your swing item by item.

BTW: who are the gurus of the pcr swing? Do all rotational swing teachers, teach the PCR?


Good idea.

Here is a clip I made of PCR on the left and Second Engine on the right. Both swings are against the same pitcher....the best pitcher in our state....a year apart.





Just an observation - but the swing on the left looks "powerless" - the swing on the right looks "powerful".

Its tough for me - given that I couldnt care less about any guru - and that I have virtually no knowledge of the swing.

But it still isnt all that hard to see.

Wink


The swing on the left is hip driven. The swing on the right is hand driven.

Counter-intuitive.....but VERY true.

Be careful of the coach who teaches a go move in the hips.




Sorry but imo,the swing on the left is not hip driven,maybe it is supposed to be but it is not.IMO


His foot plant,hip rotation, shoulder and hand bat movement are almost at the exact same time.I don't see anything driving anything.


You can see the hips explode at foot plant on the right clip,that imo is what is driving the power.

It is irrelivant what is causing it,it is working and that is what needs to be done by any hitting coach.Find a way to communicate what is needed for the hitter to be succesful.

It is obvious that he has a better swing now.Why really isn't important.
Get out your video camera.

Pick up a bat.

Video yourself trying to duplicate the swing on the right.

Pay attention to details including the barrel.

Then tell us what you had to do to duplicate the swing.

You will be surprised at what creates what you see.

And the goal is to learn to teach....to get others to do.

Therefore you need to know what and how the hands cause the action that causes the power.
Last edited by Chameleon
I am not arguing what creates what I see.

What I am saying is power is coming from the hips(and front leg load),now,the hands may or may not get them in motion but the power is still coming from the hips.


Talk in circles all you want but that is where the power comes from.Getting a hitter there is the important goal,not what hitting technique they utilize getting there.


You swear by using the hands,others swear by some other methods.If both get there and both are succesful,then THAT is what is important.


I quess I have been fortunate,my sons instructor doesn't teach any 1 method (atleast not that I am aware of).He teaches how rotatation works and how the rubber band works but preaches that there is no cookie cutter method to hitting.We are all different and we have to find what works to get there.

He does start with the box but even on the first day says it is just to teach how to get into proper position at contact.After that is learned,he could care less what you do to get there.(atleast at this point)

That is why I asked about what your son had learned and if they had anything to do with his succes now.

IMO,it has more to do with it than you would like to think.
Again,I said nothing of hip turn.I said power from the hips.


And, you can use a box to get into proper position at contact.

Doesn't mean it is the way you should get there but as a teaching method,can be very succesful.


I have coached techniques in other arenas and I can say that without a doubt.Sometimes what is being taught is to get to something else to help a person to be succesful.


Archery is what I coached and one of the most succesful tools I have used to teach it doesn't even require shooting the bow.
There is no box maintained.

Look again.

There is a triangle....that is rotated.



I haven't marked on this one but it clearly shows the triangle being rotated just after the pause.



The hands form the apex...the two forearms and the chest form the triangle.

The legs of the triangle (the forearms) rotate around the apex (hands) as the lead arm pronates and the rear arm supinates.

If there were a box, and if it were maintained, then the lead arm would have to be pulled on by shoulder rotation. Problem is...there is no shoulder rotation in a high level swing. There IS lateral tilt of the shoulders....as the forearms rotate. And the hips rotate. And since the shoulders and torso rest on the hips it appears they rotate also. They do not.

P.S. Define motion.
Last edited by Chameleon
The hips are gone,the shoulders are gone and the bat is just starting.

Is that what you say leaving the barrel and hands behind?Seems to work pretty well for him.

Just looks like the rubber band affect to me along with the box.



As I am responding with this,I see your response.

I didn't say the box was MAINTAINED,I said it gets you to proper position at contact.it is clear there is a box in the photo I posted but you often see and say something different from what you post.



My GOD,look at where the clip of bonds freezes.There couldn't be a more perfect box if you drew it with a square.
Well....I guess I could draw a box anywhere. How about a horizontal through his belly button, down his sides to his belt.

Means as much as drawing a box through his arms if the movement or maintenance is irrelevant.

The box is always associated with "maintaining it", as you swing, as if that has something to do with anything.

I can tell by your definition of motion that you're into still pictures....the position they get to.

Good luck with that.

I'm in Pujol's position right now. I didn't swing. I just assumed the position. Is that all I need to do?

The smart money is on how they get to that position.
Last edited by Chameleon
The clip you posted of Jim Thome you said his hips were open but he stopped his swing,heck,his hips BARELY moved.His hips were far from open.If they had been open,his belt buckle would have been facing the pitcher.

That is what I mean you see something different from what you post.


You have alot to offer but back up and punt from time to time.
No....I don't need to back up.

YOU need to get up to speed.

You need to learn what these details mean.

Thome's hips ARE open.....and yet he didn't swing. Learn what that means. It will help you.

Did you see this one?



Is Posada open enough?.....even though he didn't swing.

More importantly....watch what his barrel does AS his hips open.
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:


I'm in Pujol's position right now. I didn't swing. I just assumed the position. Is that all I need to do?

The smart money is on how they get to that position.



You prove my point.How do you get to the proper position AT CONTACT? I have said that repeatedly.The box,which both bonds and Pujols demonstarte quite vividly can get you there.It isn't maintained but can be used as a learning tool.
Last edited by tfox
Yes,his hips were open but there again,you make my point for me.


Good thing the hands and the bat barrel was behind,which you stated was a problem with your son's previous style.


You can see,I am NOT promoting any particular style,which I will not do.

I am pointing out flaws in all this bickering you seem to enjoy so much.
Between all the personal attacks and the bashing and the I know more than you and your way stinks. I have to admit I learned from all of you guys. At least some of these guys post clips and are brave enough to believe in a system and stand up and say your way is right or your way is wrong. And when I say all of you I really do mean all of you. I feel you can take alot of information and make it work for you , whether it be someone's rotation theory and someone else's linear theory. I have read all the threads and all the arguing but in between it all I learned alot and passed it on to my son.

So for that I say thanks!
Last edited by baseballbum
Chameleon,

Once again, your posts have got me asking alot of questions. I'll try to organize these to make it easier to reply if you have time....

1) Could you re-post the video of Posada and Thome taking the pitches, and slow down the video? I suspect there is much to be learned from how these hitter take pitches, maybe as much as seeing a slow mo full swing video.

2) When hips start opening....Though the videos are pretty fast, it looks like Posada's front foot lands pretty well closed, which leads me to think his hips do not start opening until the front foot is completely down. Hard for me to tell with the speed of the video. Looking back at the Matt Holliday video you posted previously (full swing), he appears to start opening the hips while his front foot is in the still up, landing with his toe pointed pretty well right at the pitcher. Is either of these methods preferable? Is it just a "style" thing? Seems to me it might be important...but I don't know when the hands should start (i.e. barrel tip? or swivel?) in relation to the hips starting to open.

3) Hand path - how would you describe the ideal hand path? I realize pitch location probably affects any answer so you can give multiple answers here I guess if you need to. But, I'm curious if you like a "circular hand path" prescribed by Mankin or a more straightish path? Do you like the hand path to be relatively close to the body or do you like "extension". Perhaps those things aren't mutually exclusive. Or is the hand path just a reactionary thing for the hitter?

4) Looking at the video of your son, I notice his back foot doesn't rotate around onto the toe which I commonly see in MLB players. Is that significant? I'm guessing it might not be given the bat speed he's generating. But, he appears to have a bit of an inward turn with his foot, kinda rolling his rear foot toward his front foot. His hip turn looks pretty full in the newer 2nd clip, so perhaps it's not that big of a deal.

Thanks again for patiently answering my previous questions. And I look forward to seeing what you have to say here.

Jon
Its in the game. Good post. There is plenty of dead hands in the game. Especialy at the younger ages and even into HS and college. Most of it is coach driven. Its illiminate movement and keep the head and body as still as possible then let the aluminum bat do the work, if only you can just get the bat to make contact with the ball.

I also see the war's continue over theory. There just aren't many good hitters who just hang onto the bat and turn.
You asked....so here goes....

quote:
Originally posted by willj1967:

2) When hips start opening....Though the videos are pretty fast, it looks like Posada's front foot lands pretty well closed, which leads me to think his hips do not start opening until the front foot is completely down. Hard for me to tell with the speed of the video. Looking back at the Matt Holliday video you posted previously (full swing), he appears to start opening the hips while his front foot is in the still up, landing with his toe pointed pretty well right at the pitcher. Is either of these methods preferable? Is it just a "style" thing? Seems to me it might be important...but I don't know when the hands should start (i.e. barrel tip? or swivel?) in relation to the hips starting to open.


I believe the hips start to open as the weight shfits forward. It's part of the "lower body running start". How much they open does vary hitter to hitter.....and also pitch to pitch in the same hitter. I think the goal of "keeping them closed until toe touch" is a horrible thought. If you consider each hitter has his own "rhythm"...and his own amount of movement and speed of movement necessary for him to "get there" (launch zone) on time....I think you'll see that on some pithces the same hitter will be swinging before the foot gets down and on other pitches he may sit into his front leg before he swings. I think the hitters personal rhythm creates a "window"....a "margin of error"....that lets him launch early or later depending on the pitch speed and location.

So...the hips open, within the hitter's rhythm EVERY PITCH, and hopefully that matches closely the pitchers rhythm. This opening of the hips, before "go", is to create separation and stretch. You really need to achieve a certain threshhold of stretch on every pitch but you can easily get more by delaying launch.

Launch is completely controlled by the hands. So...start the process, get the stretch creation going...you recognize fastball inside....SWING. If you recognize off speed.....keep stretching....THEN SWING.

This is all possible because the swing becomes instantaneous once you get your rhythm and stretch/separation creation process down pat. The time from decision (go) to contact must be instantneous. It must be just as quick as the time it takes a pinball flipper to flip after you hit the button. Or the time it takes your forefinger to launch from it's load against the thumb in the marble example I used earlier.

Once you learn just how to do that and the amount of time you need to do so, you then learn to "carve out" that much time against each pitcher. That time carved out will include a margin of error that allows you to swing quickly in the process...or continue the stretch and swing later...or anything in between.

quote:
3) Hand path - how would you describe the ideal hand path? I realize pitch location probably affects any answer so you can give multiple answers here I guess if you need to. But, I'm curious if you like a "circular hand path" prescribed by Mankin or a more straightish path? Do you like the hand path to be relatively close to the body or do you like "extension". Perhaps those things aren't mutually exclusive. Or is the hand path just a reactionary thing for the hitter?


I am not a fan of circular hand path teaching. In fact, I think mlb hitters try to NOT have a circular hand path...becaue a circular hand path pulls them off the ball...out of the zone. But, I also acknowledge that they will always have one because the body's rotation will eventually create one. Fight it all you want...the body's rotation is going to bend the hand path.

I teach my son to visualize three lines on the ground. One from his hands to the shortstop, one from his hands to the pitcher and the other from his hands to the second baseman. These are three paths that the hands will take...I guess technically there are an infinite number of paths but this gets him thinking "in the ballpark" about what and where they should go. And...they will not travel down these lines very far before rotation "wins" and bends them. But, to allow rotation to "win" too early, or to attempt to create a circular hand path, pulls the hitter off the ball.

I believe Mankin and others misread the video. The HANDS are turning the barrel...NOT THE SHOULDERS. This is a VERY important point. And since the hands are turning the barrel, powered by forearm rotation, this allows the arms to move the hands....down one of those three lines...while they turn the barrel....to the path of the ball.



Notice the path of Guillen's hands on these different pitch locations. IMO they travel to the ball as he turns the barrel. The length of travel has much to do with the speed of the pitch and his own personal swing and rhythm.



The marks on this clip of Ryan Howard also demonstrate the hand path.

The key is to be able to turn the barrel rearward at "go", generating batspeed, early batspeed, before commitment, which can then be adjusted as necessary. AND, this adjustment can easily be made due to the fact that the barrel going rearward "locks" the hands at the armpit for the first few frames of the swing. IF batspeed was created by moving to the ball, whether by arm pull or shoulder rotation, this would not be possible.

quote:
4) Looking at the video of your son, I notice his back foot doesn't rotate around onto the toe which I commonly see in MLB players. Is that significant? I'm guessing it might not be given the bat speed he's generating. But, he appears to have a bit of an inward turn with his foot, kinda rolling his rear foot toward his front foot. His hip turn looks pretty full in the newer 2nd clip, so perhaps it's not that big of a deal.


I believe Brandon's rear foot could be better. Most hitters get all the way to their toes....and some all the way off the ground.

Here is a hitter that rarely gets to his toe. And it doesn't seem to have an influence on his power.



Here is another hitter that does the same thing through contact, foot barely raises, and THEN gets to his toe long after the ball has left.



More Bonds

IMO, it has to do with the amount of momentum you are able to generate in the swing rotation process. I believe Brandon's mechanics match these two hitters pretty well (if you consider there will always be individual differences). I believe as he "grows" in his new mechanics, he'll be able to execute them better, and with better execution will come more momentum and he will eventually get to his toe.

In other words....I don't think it is a "mechanics" issue. I think it is a "strength within his mechanics" issue. And that it will improve with reps.

And, more importantly. Beware of internet comments and/or in person coaches that use the rear foot as an absolute. You and your son will know by the ball flight just how important that is to you.

Trust the ball flight. I have witnessed numerous "swing suggestions" that get a player onto his toe while at the same time reduces his explosiveness and power and his ability to get the barrel to the ball on time.

BTW...a thought....if there is truly and equal and opposite reaction for each action....what way should the rear foot go? Big Grin
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:
4) Looking at the video of your son, I notice his back foot doesn't rotate around onto the toe which I commonly see in MLB players. Is that significant? I'm guessing it might not be given the bat speed he's generating. But, he appears to have a bit of an inward turn with his foot, kinda rolling his rear foot toward his front foot. His hip turn looks pretty full in the newer 2nd clip, so perhaps it's not that big of a deal.


I believe Brandon's rear foot could be better. Most hitters get all the way to their toes....and some all the way off the ground.

Here is a hitter that rarely gets to his toe. And it doesn't seem to have an influence on his power.



Here is another hitter that does the same thing through contact, foot barely raises, and THEN gets to his toe long after the ball has left.



More Bonds

IMO, it has to do with the amount of momentum you are able to generate in the swing rotation process. I believe Brandon's mechanics match these two hitters pretty well (if you consider there will always be individual differences). I believe as he "grows" in his new mechanics, he'll be able to execute them better, and with better execution will come more momentum and he will eventually get to his toe.

In other words....I don't think it is a "mechanics" issue. I think it is a "strength within his mechanics" issue. And that it will improve with reps.

And, more importantly. Beware of internet comments and/or in person coaches that use the rear foot as an absolute. You and your son will know by the ball flight just how important that is to you.

Trust the ball flight. I have witnessed numerous "swing suggestions" that get a player onto his toe while at the same time reduces his explosiveness and power and his ability to get the barrel to the ball on time.

BTW...a thought....if there is truly and equal and opposite reaction for each action....what way should the rear foot go? Big Grin




Chameleon,

Do you think the reason some hitters come up on their toe more could be their back to front body movement? Just wondering if you've looked at enough side view videos to be able to tell if there could be any correlation. I'm more talking head movement.
Last edited by micmeister
C-

Thanks for taking the time, and now I'll try to take some more of it (this might be a good spot for one of those little winking smiley faces but I find them annoying). I think I'm following what you're saying. One thing I don't quite get yet is the "stretch", which I'm guessing means to counter the slight linear movement forward and/or the opening of the hips, with movement in the hands/forearms.

Am I in the neighborhood with that crude description? Let me tell you a couple things I think I see and you tell me if I'm right or if I've lost my mind.

I'm a lifelong Cardinals fan so I'm obviously pretty familiar with Pujols' swing...so I'll start there. The slow motion video you posted previously showed that when Pujols picks up his front foot, he begins a slight forward movement of his body (toward the pitcher). To be honest, before seeing that in slo mo, I just assumed he remained stable or leaned back into the inside of his back leg at that time. Mistake number 1000 for me. I also notice that Albert starts with a high back elbow, then appears to take it even higher and tips his bat forward(??), all while he has his front foot up and is moving his body forward.

Is this the "stretch"? Is Albert offsetting the linear movement forward and the initial opening of the hips with raising his back arm and tipping his bat forward? Am I trying to make this too simple? To be honest, I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right questions. It seems there must be more to it. Do you take the hands toward the backstop? Do you take the front elbow/arm toward the backstop? Do you make a little inward turn? Or do the hands stay in the same general spot, but torque or twist a bit to allow the bat to tip?

It's pretty easy to see in the videos at hittingillustrated.com that Pujols does not "hide his hands". Even from a camera angle toward the shortstop side of the pitcher, you can still see his hands when he loads and unloads. So surely the pitcher has a 100% view of them. He obviously keeps them in front of his body.

I'd love to hear an explanation any and all of this stuff.

Once I figure this out a bit, I'd like to talk more about the swivel and how exactly that is accomplished (mechanically).

Thanks.
Jon
Generally speaking, stretch is created when you turn the lower body one way (open) while the upper body turns the other way (closes). When you do that far enough you will come to a limit....where it just doesn't go any further. Something has to give. I guess that would be max stretch.

Now, you will see other examples of stretch. Sometimes the upper body doesn't close it just "holds". It provides the resistance for the lower body to open against. Sometimes you see the hitter use the barrel (sending it rearward) to provide the resistance for the lower body to open against.

In any case....the hitter ends up with a rubber band type stretched feeling. That wants to unwind. The hips don't stop once they reach stretch. They continue. And eventually you reach a point that the swing is almost a 'release' rather than a swing....although the release occurs as the hands send the barrel rearward.

Here is a clip of Pujols creating stretch.



There is forward movement. There is hip opening. There isn't much turn rearward of the upper body...but there is a cocking of the barrel which does the same thing.

Basically, you're just trying to gain a mechanical advantage....an unstretch....and unwind of something that is already wound. Like the hips pulling against the hands....but the hands have a "hold" on the system....and then they release the "hold" and the barrel is accelerated rapidly by the release as much as by the energy supply.

Here is Chipper using the barrel's rearward movement to "stretch" against in his left hand swing.



As soon as Chipper lifts his leg he has an uninterrupted, fluid, rhythmic lower body running start that works against the rearward turning barrel.

Notice the "link" between the lead knee and the barrel. They are synced as they create stretch.

His right hand swing is similar but a little different. Same thing going on.....separation/stretch.....just achieved with a slight variation.

And the guy with the best mechanics EVER....



The last "nope" should be a "yep". But....during all the other "nopes", Bonds is creating stretch, reading the pitch, making a decision, then......KAPOW.

Basically a 3 frame swing....because he can check it up until the last possible second because his launch is instantaneous......due to the stretch and fire mechanics. The immediate launch and spend.
Last edited by Chameleon
On the offspeed stuff and how do you "wait", I used to believe that you 'sat' more and then launched.

I may be picking nits...but that gives me a feeling of stopping and then starting. That is an absolute no no. As you sit, you can not slow or stop or hesitate to wait for the ball.

In other words, when you sit you can not stop the hips from opening. Once those hips begin the stretch process you can not stop and restart.

I feel it happens more like this. Your good swing has a time duration to it....from beginning of stretch creation to launch and within that you have a margin of error within the stretch process.

So....I believe the lower body is consistent every swing....the hitter starts his stretch and there is a crescendo of hip energy. It starts small and builds. As it builds, so does the "hold". Then you reach a point that enough stretch is created to pull off a very good swing.....but more can still be created if necessary....all controlled by the hands. This is the launch window.

In other words the lower body is the ongoing people mover at the airport. (Example in another thread) Once it starts it continues...and it builds in strength over a period of time (crescendo) that matches the hitters rhythm and his timing. This hip movment is consistent every swing. The crescendo is consistent every swing. The "window" of launch, that is within this crescendo, is consistent every attempt......so that swinging early for the heat...to the swinging later for the offspeed...can be accomplished by simply controlling the release of the barrel rearward. Adequate stretch has been created to "launch and spend" on both the fastball and the offspeed. Your hands are in control. When your eyes say it's time....send it rearward. Instantaneously. On any pitch because of the "stretch window".

This really highlights the "instantaneous" launch present in high level hitters. Because the launch is instantaneous and because they have learned how to create this "stretch window"....they are really really tough.

So.....the sit? I suppose. As your hands "hold" longer for the offspeed you will sit more. As the crescendo of the hips continue you will lower your center of gravity and appear to be sitting. But, IMO, the sit is the effect.....not the cause.

That is why you'll see Bonds appear to start his swing before his front foot lands......often. Yet....you'll see him "wait" also.

This leads to something else you can chew on.

I believe teaching toe touch to heel drop as the beginning of hip rotation....or as the launch of the swing.....or as some indicator of anything.....is nonsense.

The REAL significant indicator is "go". Compare where hitters feet are at "go".....Do not compare anything to toe touch or heel drop.



And look at Bonds "go" decision in each of these swings.

Bonds Chase
Last edited by Chameleon
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
I agree that the video of Chameleon's son is very telling.....Those videos, IMO, are truth in advertising.......

His swing has prospered with "stretch and fire" and "launch and spend".......Just the homerun stats, alone, are proof enough for me.......



looks like chameleons boy hits the ball better his bat speed is better and he gets more extension,,does his back leg concern you? why cant brandon get on his toe? does it matter? no sarcasm just wondering?
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
No....I don't need to back up.

YOU need to get up to speed.

You need to learn what these details mean.

Thome's hips ARE open.....and yet he didn't swing. Learn what that means. It will help you.

Did you see this one?



Is Posada open enough?.....even though he didn't swing.

More importantly....watch what his barrel does AS his hips open.


this is a great clip..wheres the box on clip 2?..looks like alot of hand action and running start,,,,a yes yes yes yes no ,

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