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CIF approves new bat changes for 2011

C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
It's all sort of tied together... the incident with the HS kid getting hit/badly injured brought about immediate switch to wood bats in his specific league and brought about the legislator trying to pass a law to outlaw non-wood bats for two years until regulations are put in place to make bats safer. The legislator agreed to back off of the push when CIF agreed to move up the BBCOR to this year for California.
For details, do a Yahoo search "Jared Huffman bat regulations". (he is the legislator)
C CELTDAD10+ posts
Since I have a senior in HS and another as a freshman in D1, I figured getting BBCOR bat would be the thing to do. Last night my son and I went to sports authority to look for one to no avail. Tonight we went to DICKS(woodland hills) sporting goods and found a wide selection of BBCOR bats in different brands and sizes. They had a 33 30 with a 25.00 coupon that was sent to the house, on a 200.00 bat. I find spending about 190.00 w/tax on the bat to be less than other non BBCOR HS bats. Now the younger son will get to experience of the BBCOR bats performance before the season starts. By the amount of stock that was there tonight I would say, the new rule is here to stay.
Last edited by CELTDAD
C CELTDAD10+ posts
He did try and swing a few in the store before a decision was made. Also I have been reading the blogs on rivals college site to get an idea on which bats where thought to perform better. So since all of them are reported to perform similarly, we went the less expensive route. He liked and purchased the omaha, based on how it felt. It sucks because nobody has these yet, so you can't get a feel of your buddies.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
CELTDAD & BOF,
We're thinking along the same lines. I really hate to waste money on a BBCOR bat if the new rule isn't implemented for 2011...but, my kid will have to use a BBCOR at the next level the following year, so I may still take the plunge. We'll see what happens? I believe the university my son is committed to uses Demarini's?
L LJ3813100+ posts
My son got a chance to swing a handful of BBCOR bats over the last couple of weeks. These are the bats he swung and in the order he rated them 1) Easton surge, 2) Easton Rival, 3) Demarini Voodoo 4) Tpx Omaha 5) Rawlings 5150. The top 3 bats did not thicken the walls to make their bats BBCOR compliant the other 2 did.

Let me start with that compared to the BESR bats well it"s going to be a different game this year. The consensus was that everyone would rather swing the BESR bats. I'm still not sure what the CIF is going to decide next month. It will be interesting to see if the Bat Companies will be able to get enough bats out for all levels of college baseball plus the 40,000 plus H.S players in CA.

Easton Surge- By Far he thought this was the best BBCOR bat He said it swung and felt like BESR surge no vibration at all. Ball jumped off the bat, this is the one to get if you can.

Easton Rival- Very balanced no Vibration. Ball jumped off the bat

Demarini Voodoo- Balanced and very little Vibration the ball didn't seem to jump off of this bat. No one else liked this bat as much as he did.

Tpx Omaha- Seemed end loaded probably because of the thickened the walls plus more Vibration if you didn't hit it exactly on the sweet spot.

Rawlings 5150- End loaded probably because of the thickened the walls plus vibration no matter where the you hit it on the bat.

Its going to be all individual preference on whether you like a 1 or 2 piece bat or which brand you like or how much you can afford. No one there had the Anderson or the Nike BBCOR.
Last edited by LJ3813
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Great summary LJ!

My son's team mate brought a TPX to the field last week and he was able to swing it and he also said it felt top heavy. We will see if we can get our hands on a Easton to compare. We are just going to wait and keep swinging wood (which he normally does for bp anyway) and see where this all ends up.
L LJ3813100+ posts
I wonder why the CIF is pushing the Sports Authority Stores so much. There are more sporting good stores in the state then them and a lot more online retailers. I wonder how much they get for each bat that is sold and who is getting the kick backs. This is on the verge of extortion to get that tamper evident stamp you need to buy the bat from them.
H Hawghauler10+ posts
The CIF and Sports Authority have partnered... so SA is an official store of the CIF.

By the way... if you don't know about this you should go into your high school's athletic director's office and ask....

Sports Authority has sent out 15% discount cards for all CIF member schools for all students. You can use them until July for each purchase. It has a bar code on it and the just scan it at checkout.

Also, the tamper proof labels are for BBCOR/ABI composite bats.

check out the question and answer page:
http://www.cifstate.org/govern...0copy%20-%20Copy.pdf

Pay attention to item 2 and 3:

2. Q: What are the new standards for composite bats?
A: Meets the BBCOR standards that include the Accelerated Break in (“ABI”) procedure and
these bats will be affixed with some type of decal/stamp/silkscreen mark that indicates the bat is
BBCOR compliant. In 2010‐11 these bats do not need to be affixed with a “tamper evident”
stamp/decal or have a stamp/decal that indicates the type of material contained in the barrel of
the bat. (It is anticipated that the bat manufacturers that produce a BBCOR compliant bat this
year will meet the “tamper evident” and material contained in the barrel of the bat decal/stamp,
but it is possible that bats that have only the BBCOR compliant stamp/decal will be produced.)
3. Q: If I purchase a composite bat this year, 2010‐11 that only has the BBCOR compliant mark, will
the bat be legal next school year, 2011‐12?
A: At this point, no. Starting in 2012 all legal non‐wood bats must have all the compliance marks
as indicated previously.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
I stopped by Dick's yesterday and they had a full compliment of BBCOR bats in stock. I think they had three manufacturers bats. The clerk said they just got them in last week and that they would be shipping all of the BESR bats back to the manufacturers and getting BBCOR replacements. I expect to hear something concrete from the CIF in January. Once they officially confirm we will go buy some for our HS program.
W warningtrack100+ posts
This was posted on norcalpreps by the CIF

"The NFHS waiver list of Approved BESR-ABI Composite Baseball Bats have been approved for use in CIF for the 2010-11 season. After this season, 2010-11, these bats will not be approved for play."

Edited to add - the CIF has updated their website which makes it clear now, before it was confusing the way it was written.

www.cifstate.org
Last edited by warningtrack
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Thanks for the link WT.

The Southern Section web site has no information on it. I assume they will catch up next week.

If I read this correctly they are approving some composite BESR bats, but not aluminum. This is insane, so this means that umpires are going to have to carry around a list of approved bats by manufacturer and model and check them prior to each game against their list.

I am all for the change, but they should sychronize it with the rest of the country. Gota love the Peoples Republic of California.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
My son's HS team used a Demarini Vexxum BBCOR bat today in a winter league game for the first time...it was pretty ugly! They had three or four hits in a regular seven inning game, and only one ball was hit solidly. According to my son, the bat felt top heavy. It appears that he'll have to swing a few BBCOR bats to determine what's comfortable?

I attended a couple D1 Fall college scrimmages in October and it was obvious the game would be different this year. After today's HS game, there's no doubt that scoring will be lacking, not to mention power numbers across the board. Strong defense and pitching will be even more of a premium than ever before...it should be an interesting season.
CD Cutter Dad10+ posts
I still think it makes absolutely no sense for CIF to grandfather in some BESR/ABI composite bats if they can theoretically perform as well as a BESR aluminum bat. CIF is supposed to be emulating the NCAA requirement this year and NCAA does not allow these waivered bats. The waiver was intended only to allow certain BESR composites for NHFS (non-california schools) this year. I think CIF either totally misunderstood the concept, or someone in CIF has a kid swinging a CF4. Or maybe they made a deal with the bat manufacturers to try to get rid of the remaining stock.
CD Cutter Dad10+ posts
So according to the bat rules published by CIF, "Effective beginning the 2010-11 school year, composite bats shall be illegal until meeting the standards of 1-3-2(e)" Standard 1-3-2(e) is the BBCOR standard, NOT the BESR/ABI waiver standard.

http://www.cifstate.org/sports...20changes%201011.pdf

I emailed the baseball rules interpreter listed on the CIF site to see if they would provide a clarification. Apologies to any CF4 or B2 owners, but this needs to be settled before the season starts.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
warningtrack- You're probably right regarding the waiver list...my son is asking for a new BBCOR now to get prepared for the season. Unfortunately he's going to have to wait until everything is etched in stone. His college swings the Demarini BBCOR's, so that's probably the road we'll take? However, if as you said, others take advantage of the bats on the waiver list, I may have to reconsider?

Cutter Dad-
Last edited by bsbl247
W warningtrack100+ posts
The CIF has clearly stated on their website that the waiver bats WILL be allowed for the 2011 season.

www.cifstate.org

In addition, below is a link to the NFHS waiver list of non-wood bats that have been approved for use in CIF for the 2010-11 season. After this season, 2010-11 these bats will not be approved for play.

NFHS Approved BESR-ABI Composite Baseball Bats - Approved for Waiver

http://www.nfhs.org/content.aspx?id=4155
Last edited by warningtrack
CD Cutter Dad10+ posts
I also confirmed over the phone with CIF that the waiver list bats are approved. They have posted a Q&A for clarification.

http://www.cifstate.org/sports...BaseballBatQandA.pdf

They seem to understand the implications, however, their rationale was that it was some sort of compromise as a result of the settlement with AB7 and the rushed implementation of the standard. They indicated that the umpires would be advised of which bats would be legal. Although I don't agree, at least I know where to start now.
H Hawghauler10+ posts
One other thing. The DeMarini VooDoo does "break-in".
My son has been using his BBCOR VooDoo now for a little over a month in BP and lessons and last night he was hitting with it and the added POP was noticeable. I asked him and he agreed that it had a bit more pop.

This ties in with a conversation with a college coach and he said it seemed like the wood bats have more pop. I think the BBCOR bats have to be broken-in to get them a little hotter.
T tlbaseball10+ posts
Ok, has CIF determined if the BBCOR bats are "readily availble" to all California players? I know I've visited 2 Sports Authorities / Sports Chalets and neither have had the Easton Surge. I've seen the Voodoo but from what I've read it might not be the right choice. Also, if all other players/parents are waiting until a final decision comes down will there be 10,000 bats to go around?
W warningtrack100+ posts
The decision has been made. The answers are here;

http://www.cifstate.org/sports...BaseballBatQandA.pdf

I would imagine most kids will get bats on the waiver list. They are all better than BBCOR. Next year when BBCOR is mandatory per NFHS the second generation BBCOR bats will be available and should be better than the ones out now. Just my thoughts.....

The CF4 must be selling like crazy right now!
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by warningtrack:

The CF4 must be selling like crazy right now!


I'm not going to lay down $400 for a CF4 or any other bat on the waiver list for ONLY three months of HS baseball...But fortunately my son's HS coach is going to order a few CF4's. It's nice being part of a program that's not in the Red.
W warningtrack100+ posts
Very good question. The rest of the country will be using BESR bats and my guess is that most of the California kids will be using the CF4 or waiver list bats. With that said it's a pretty level playing field when comparing kids to everyone else.

The CIF has put the kids in this position. Why hold it against the kids? I would of rather seen all BBCOR or go with the NFHS until 2012. Then this question would have never been raised.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
warningtrack- That's what the thought process was for my son's coach; the other schools are going to take advantage and use the bats on the waiver list, so they don't want to be left behind. I also agree that it's ridiculous that the CIF even has a "waiver list". Go 100% BBCOR, or suspend the rule until 2012 like the other 49 states and allow the kids to use their BESR rated bats!
H Hawghauler10+ posts
It just proves the CIF really didn't understand BESR vs. BBCOR.

The NFHS banned composite bats for the 2011 season and will be going 100% BBCOR 2012.
NFHS setup a composite bat waiver list because the waiver list bats would not exceed the BESR rating after they were broken-in.

The CIF decided to go BBCOR early to stop a know nothing politician from pushing forward with legislation that would ban metal bats for two years.

But for some reason they included the waiver list of composite bats that had nothing to do with BBCOR, it had to do with the composite bat ban. The waiver list of bats are BESR bats. I don't think the CIF knew what they were doing.
L LJ3813100+ posts
Hawghauler you are right on the money with the waiver bats, they stay within the BESR rating but test above BBCOR rating. The problem is they tried to follow the NFHS but the rest of country goes to the BBCOR in 2012 so its ok for them to use those bats. It's the blind leading the blind. They are leaving themselves open for a law suit as soon as some pitcher gets hit. As sue happy people are in this state it should be BBCOR with no waivers.
W warningtrack100+ posts
You guys are good. I found a brand new 2010 CF4(the gold one on the waiver list) for $249 with free shipping. I am not a fan of used bats, they could have been hitting water logged balls for all I know. LOL. My son normally does not use his game bats for practice but since it only has to last until the end of May I told him to use it.

I know at least a dozen kids who have ordered the CF4 in the last week. Demarini is happy........
CD Cutter Dad10+ posts
It's funny. I bought my 2012 son a BBCOR Surge just before Christmas. After the waiver list info was confirmed, I asked if he wanted one from the list just in case there really was a big difference. He had only swung the Surge in the cage and thought it definitely had less pop than his Stealth IMX, but thought it would be fine (similar pop to wood, but more consistent and no vibrations). Said he would need to get used to BBCOR anyway. Me, being the overzealous dad, scoured ebay and picked up a new LS Dynasty for $75, which was probably one of the less popular bats on the list, but a decent bat from what I've heard. I justified it as a good deal for a one-season bat, even if he doesn't use it. I know, I'm a bat junkie. I told him to let his teammates borrow it for bp as much as possible to break it in.
Last edited by Cutter Dad
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Jr played his first game today with BBCOR and wood bats. After seeing the game it is clear that this is going to significantly change the HS game this year this year in California and next year across the country. There will be fewer cheap flairs, lots of ground balls, and fly balls that hold up in the gaps, which is going to put a premium on defense. Squared up balls will get out, we had one today, but a couple of pretty well hit line drives that caught by the center fielder. Games are going to also move fast and there will be many more games at 2 hrs or less.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Warningtrack. We did not have any yet, most people don’t even know about the waiver list yet, just us obsessive parents….. The HS coach bought a couple of $100 BBCOR's at sportsmart and in my son's opinion after taking BP with them they were like swinging a chunk of aluminum, so he used his wood bat. Probably ½ of the kids used the cheap BBCOR’s and the other ½ used wood. There were some well-hit balls, but many flairs, that previously would have fallen in were now hit to the SS or 2nd basemen. More groundballs also. This is all early season baseball and pitchers were only throwing fastballs and many players are just now starting to take BP so it is just one data point. Our fences are not yet up (since we have to share the outfield with so c cer (don’t even get me started on this one..) so I could not tell if one of the hit balls was a home run, probably would have been but it ended up being a triple. Doubles will still be doubles, probably fewer home runs, more doubles, fewer flairs and more reachable ground balls. Infield defense will be tested more from what I could tell. The waiver bat I purchased should be here by next week so I will report on the differences with the CF4 providing we play.
H Hawghauler10+ posts
Or.... I just read the Q&A web page for about the 10th time and suddenly it kind of made sense.

The CIF really didn't care about BBCOR or BESR.
All they wanted to do is appease that "know-nothing" lawmaker that wanted to outlaw aluminum bats. They got him to drop the idea by requiring all ALUMINUM bats to conform to BBCOR a year early.
The "know-nothing" lawmaker didn't say anything about composite bats and the CIF had to go along with the NFHS in banning composites except those on the waiver list.

All this was about getting the "know-nothing" lawmaker to drop the legislation. It had nothing to do with BBCOR vs. BESR.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
Bsbl-son was back at with another 9 inning winter league game this weekend, and the kids are still trying to make adjustments with the BBCOR bats. Our HS has not received their shipment of BBCOR and CF4 bats yet, so they borrowed the opponents bats. It was still ugly, as the team scored three runs in nine innings. Lots of grounders and weak fly balls. There were a few well struck balls in the gaps, but it was evident that you really need to square the ball up to have a chance. They'll have to keep plugging along...we'll see if the waiver list holds up? I'd have to assume it will, otherwise there will be some angry people that wasted money on the bats on that list!
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
I just stopped at my local Sports Authority. About 1/3 of their inventory were new BBCOR bats (about 80 bats). What was interesting is they were all $29.99 to $49.99. In that one of the criteria for the change in standard here in CA was availability; it will be interesting if the availability standard is being met with low end bats.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
When I was playing HS ball in the 80's, most of us carried wood and an older Easton bat in our bags. Our school usually had ordered two or three bats for the season, and they were kept in the equipment bag. I have a feeling that the 2011 HS baseball season will be similar. I for one will not spend $300-$400 on a bat that will only be used for four months, and I'm nervous about buying a used bat on ebay...but I'm eager to see how BOF's son and others like their used bats?
L LJ3813100+ posts
[/QUOTE]

This might be a good time to remind all the CIF is a conglomeration of schools and school districts represented primarily by superintendents, AD's and coaches.


Thank you,
Jim
Your friendly neighborhood umpire[/QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------------
That dosent make them any smarter. They did not think this through at all.

It's been turned into a FUBAR
Last edited by LJ3813
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by LJ3813:


This might be a good time to remind all the CIF is a conglomeration of schools and school districts represented primarily by superintendents, AD's and coaches.


Thank you,
Jim
Your friendly neighborhood umpire[/QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------------
That dosent make them any smarter. They did not think this through at all.

It's been turned into a FUBAR[/QUOTE]

True. My point is remember that when you're tempted to argue bat legality with the umpire.
L LJ3813100+ posts
[/QUOTE]

True. My point is remember that when you're tempted to argue bat legality with the umpire.[/QUOTE]
____________________________________________________

This is going to be like slow pitch softball for them. They are going to have to pull out a sheet of paper and check the bat if it dosent have the BBCOR stamp on it.

I'm sure there will be coaches and parents arguing about the bats. Thats to bad the umpires shouldnt be put in that position to begin with.
SdleftySdlefty500+ posts
Ok, so Lefty Junior hit with Omaha today with two of his teammates in the cage. I was throwing th eBP session. They all seemed to be fine with it. Junior has swung the Omaha for a few years, and probably goning to stick with it. At $199 it is a good value.

Of course I had to swing it also. It felt good, no complaints!

Lefty out!
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Bat did not come in until Sat after the game. He hit with it in the cage and Jr felt it had as much pop as his composite Stealth.(which is illegal…and the prices for new ones are $150…so much for selling the old one) We will seen next weekend. Jr played with his travel team on Sunday and many of the kids said their coaches are ordering CF4’s for the season.
W warningtrack100+ posts
I watched about ten HS games in SoCal this weekend. I would say it was 75% CF4's, 20% BBCOR and 5% wood. It's a different game now, even the CF4's don't have nearly the pop of some of the juiced up bats of the past. I saw one ball hit the fence all weekend and it was with a BBCOR Voodoo, the kid was 6'5.

In my opinion from the stands the black bbcor omaha appeared to be the worst of the bats I saw. The sound it makes is like a plane of glass breaking and the ball didn't go very good off the bat. Most of the BBCOR the kids used were the Voodoo. I was surprised how many had the CF4 since the waiver list was just announced recently. It appeared they were team bats for some.
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
Just got back from my umpire association meeting. Our largest league that we serve voted to allow ONLY BBCOR bats in league games. In spite of the CIF variance for the seven BESR bats they went ahead and excellerated the change. The vote for the change (by coaches) was 12-2 in favor of moving to BBCOR this year.
H Hawghauler10+ posts
Okay guys... Now we will start into the Small Claims court actions. A parent, based on info from the CIF buys a new bat only to find out a league goes against the CIF and makes their own rules.

Looks like a lot of leagues will be buying bats.

That's why we have an organization that controls the rules or from one league to the next you will not know what's legal.

Should be interesting during playoffs, one team with BBCOR and one team with waiver list bats.
L LJ3813100+ posts
I hope the CIF change their minds and make it BBCOR all the way their should only be one bat standard.

Now for you guys that jumped on that waiver bat bandwagon you did know that some of these people up at the top might come to there senses and not allow any BESR bats at all.

With the waiver bats you might have more cage or BP bats I have a whole bunch of BESR bats for that now. It will be intersting to see what finally happens with all this.
BBfamBBfam500+ posts
CIF has just updated their site. The waiver list is "as of Jan. 19, 2011". It appears they have no intention of getting rid of those bats. You are going to have a bunch of po'd parents if they buy that bat according to their site and then it deemed illegal by someone else. If your son is going to get a bat for the season, he'd better be getting one soon especially if he wants the BESR Demarini or the rumored "top" BBCORs. I know the Easton Surge has been backordered for weeks.
BBfamBBfam500+ posts
I agree Warningtrack. You can't post that a certain piece of equipment is ok, then change your mind. Some of us like to get our bats early enough to "get them warmed up" before the season.

Sure, we can all get the bbcor bats (if you can find the one you want) but I can see why some want the waiver bats to give an advantage, especially if it is a crucial year (Junior, Senior) for college recruiting.

As a pitcher's mom, I am all for the new standards. But, my boys also hit. Fortunately, my oldest is a base hitter rather than a power hitter so he may not be affected as much. My freshman son is a power hitter, but is just starting out in high school so by the time he gets ready to think about college, everyone will be using bbcor (or wood?).

And for the record, younger son LOVES his bbcor Voodoo and says he hits just fine with it, power and all.
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
blue10
The Demarini composite woods should be allowable at least for 2011. They are BESR certified and according to the CIF Q&A, a wood composite is allowable with BESR.
This whole thing is very volatile right now, so I don't think anyone can tell you with any certainty what will happen beyond this year with anything other than BBCOR.
This bat seems to be a staple for colleges using wood, club and summer ball, and the construction makes perfect sense for the direction things are going, so I think it's a pretty safe bet if there is such a thing any more.
Of course the drawback is that this a a wood barrel and will not have as big a sweetspot as a BBCOR metal or composite bat. So, if you're looking to use for HS, I would argue that you will be at a slight performance disadvantage compared to what others will be using.
Last edited by cabbagedad
CR Coach RoyMember
Blue10
The DeMarini Pro Maple bats are clearly stamped BBCOR - I just ordered them for my team for this year. Since they have a sealed endcap that will not allow for alteration they should be legal for beyond this year.
BTW I just spoke to Steven Anderson of Anderson Bat Company and he is planning on having a BBCOR bat on the market in about 10 weeks - this bat WILL be legal for 2012. Knowing ABC's performance in the softball market this bat should be awesome.
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
Coach Roy,
Thanks for clarification on the BBCOR stamping... I had checked Demarini website and a few of the top bat-selling sites and most don't indicate BBCOR.

As a sidenote to your Anderson bat comment... Miken had tremendous success with softball bats but failed miserably with baseball. Granted, most of thier success was slowpitch, so Anderson should be in better position when it comes to factoring in pitch velocity/mass differences, etc..
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