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Civil Rights leaders or Marketing ploy?

FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
Major League Baseball will announce today the participants for the second Civil Rights Game -- to be played at AutoZone Park on March 29, 2008 -- with indications that the teams will be the New York Mets and Chicago White Sox.

Just looking at the black athletes on TV it seems to me that basketball and football have done more for the black athletes and black fans than baseball ever did. With all the recent publicity about the decline in black athletes in baseball I can't help but think this is a well thought out marketing scheme attempting to lure black athletes away from basketball and football and into baseball --- OR ---- is baseball just trying to make a political statement hoping to negate their segregated activities of years past? I'm confused.
Fungo
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B BillBill100+ posts
A complex topic for sure. Baseball has reflected society. When society was segretated, so was baseball. I don't blame baseball for that. It was all part of our shameful shared American past.

I grew up in the 60's and early seventies and there were plenty of black baseball heroes to choose from. Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson - the list goes on and on.

There are a lot of reasons, some obvious and some much more complex, that will be debated for years as to why the presence of African-Americans in baseball has declined so precipitously. Me? I think it was shortsighted for MLB to focus so much on developing players from the Caribbean and South American while neglecting the talented players from all backgrounds at home.

Sure, build great facilities in other countries to develop players. But why not do the same or more at home in all communities? In the end MLB seems to be following the lead of other corporate entities in tranporting jobs and skillsets overseas.

The MLB RBI initiative, among other things, can help make improvements and help increase popularity in the black community. I guess that the Civil Rights game is just one more way to market MLBs intentions. IMHO.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
MLB can have all the intentions they want. Black kids as a whole are not into baseball. It's slow. It's not hip. It's not cool. That's from the son of Barry Larkin (as said by Larkin during a game). Even Barry Bonds kid is a high school basketball player. He played baseball this past year just for kicks.

For black kids looking for college opportunity, in scholarship to roster ratio, baseball is not the answer. In terms of chasing the money, very few minor league baseball sign for life altering money. Before anyone goes off on the "play for the passion, not for the money rant" many ghetto kids look at fast and quick big money as a way out rather than looking at a process to work their way out.
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N njbb1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BillBill:
A complex topic for sure. Baseball has reflected society. When society was segretated, so was baseball. I don't blame baseball for that. It was all part of our shameful shared American past.

I grew up in the 60's and early seventies and there were plenty of black baseball heroes to choose from. Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson - the list goes on and on.

There are a lot of reasons, some obvious and some much more complex, that will be debated for years as to why the presence of African-Americans in baseball has declined so precipitously. Me? I think it was shortsighted for MLB to focus so much on developing players from the Caribbean and South American while neglecting the talented players from all backgrounds at home.

Sure, build great facilities in other countries to develop players. But why not do the same or more at home in all communities? In the end MLB seems to be following the lead of other corporate entities in tranporting jobs and skillsets overseas.

The MLB RBI initiative, among other things, can help make improvements and help increase popularity in the black community. I guess that the Civil Rights game is just one more way to market MLBs intentions. IMHO.



I don't think the inner city youth would be helped by Baseball Academies, these academies prepare children to play baseball, they do not educate or prepare them for life out side of baseball.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
There sure is a bigger college scholarship opportunity in football and there is more glamour associated with both college football and basketball. The problem is… How many “ghetto kids” receive life altering money coming out of high school in football or basketball?

Also, just how much money is life changing to a young guy who grew up in absolute poverty? Would/could $50,000/$100,000 make a difference?

I’m obviously very partial and have thought for years that baseball has done a poor job of promoting some of the most positive aspects of playing baseball. And of course, opportunity is one of those things.

The fact that a large number of minorities growing up in the inner cities really don’t want to or can’t and don’t end up going to college.

Professional football careers don’t start right out of high school. Now the NBA will not draft players out of high school. College is not an option for everyone even with a full scholarship.

The “chance” to sign for some good money right out of high school is only available in baseball.

While Minor League baseball doesn’t pay a lot of money, it is an occupation that includes insurance and other fringe benefits. Much better route than many in the inner city take.

The “chance” to get filthy rich and famous if a player ends up being one of the top players. While the odds are long it’s still a much better chance than taking almost any other path.

If people thought long enough, they could come up with many more positives reasons for promoting baseball in the inner cities. Personally I think opportunity should be #1.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
The problem is… How many “ghetto kids” receive life altering money coming out of high school in football or basketball?
I don't disagree. It's a perception v. reality issue. From what I've read regarding sociology and been told by a couple of friends who came from the environment, too many see the big, quick buck as the only way out.

The reality is the odds are long. Education (or trade training) is the real answer. A friend who grew up in the ghetto was accused of going "whitey on them" by his own family when he took a full academic ride to college.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Yes it is all perception.

There have been and are many great black athletes. I really wish baseball had more of these great athletes.

It’s hard to go there, but I think most would agree that there is a large population of great black athletes. (See NFL/NBA)

So once again, wouldn’t a great black athlete have a “better” chance at reaching the top in Baseball. Just based on percentages (More overall opportunities available and less “perceived” competition for the top spots)

Not sure, but isn’t the highest paid athlete a baseball player?

We all know that athletic ability alone will not necessarily make someone a Big League player. It has to start earlier. IMO That is where the effort is required… right there in the ghetto with elementary schools.

I realize some don’t see this whole issue as being real important. Sometimes I’m not so sure myself, then we run across a situation like a Carl Crawford and the whole thing seems much more important and worth doing something.
B BillBill100+ posts
quote:
_____________________________________________
I don't think the inner city youth would be helped by Baseball Academies, these academies prepare children to play baseball, they do not educate or prepare them for life out side of baseball.
_____________________________________________

NJBB - Why couldn't the academies help with baseball AND help a little to prepare kids for life outside of baseball?

The odds are long for poor and inner city youth to get to the pros no matter what sport they choose. A lot has been said about the challenges with learning to play baseball versus sports such as football and basketball and there is some truth to those perceptions. However, it is not the whole truth.

Sports can be used as an avenue to get an education. The problem is that too few black youths are taking advantage of the opportunities that baseball can offer or have a reasonable opportunity to do so.

I was going to start a post at one point on 'nature' versus 'nurture'. I know a lot of kids that have private lessons, go to camps, etc. in addition to having good coaching available. In many schools, some schools that my kids play against during their high school season, I see kids with tons of talent but who are obviously very raw. What would happen if they had access to some of the same resources as other kids? Again, the MLB RBI initiative can help with this but I wouldn't rule out academies.

There may be a few more CoCo Crisps out there, and even for the ones that don't make it the bigs, hopefully there we be some education for the kids to fall back on.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Fungo posted: is baseball just trying to make a political statement hoping to negate their segregated activities of years past? I'm confused.
They are trying to broaden the base and grow the game, imo.

Minority kids have already left baseball by the time they get to high school. 10 to 12 year old kids are not thinking about opportunities in 4 or 5 years. Simply put, baseball is not cool to black kids, because their friends are not playing. The few that play leave for hoops and football VERY early, because that's where their friends are. Just like everyone else, they need to get hooked on the game at the T-Ball level, from within their community.
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Frank MartinFrank Martin1,000+ posts
You can't generalize all players and areas. In Atlanta, a number of parents and coaches started the Most Viable Prospect Showcase, it was well scouted and 14 players were drafted out of it. Every player there was black.

RBI tryouts have draw over 150 players at one time.

So how they did all this, they had coaches and MLB scouts who knew baseball , and promote it to the the high schools. Plus the players who gone into pro ball have helped baseball in the area too, through coaching, lessons and baseball camps.
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
I'll agree with Dad04 that this Civil Rights Game is most likely a political statement. It will actually take a lot more hard work to get inner city youth involved. RBI is a start, but somehow it hasn't created much awareness of the opportunities that PG notes. Academies that offer a hardball alternative to basketball might work, but the baller academies aren't starting these kids out real young; they pick them up in HS. You might be able to instill a greater love for the game at a young age by getting more inner city youth out to MLB games and on the field to meet MLB stars, but shouldn't teams already be doing that? These kids have to have attractive places to play, and those facilities have to be kept safe. Maybe if they better marketed the existing inner city programs that seem to be working, like in Oakland, and use them as models for further development. I keep coming back to what PG says about the existing opportunities, and I obviously agree 100% with Jerry. This is what MLB has to do, they have to increase awareness of these possibilities.
I don't see the blame falling on the game itself. Baseball is great, it is timeless, and it is beyond becoming outdated. If you build it they will come.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
I don't think the waning popularity of baseball among our African-American youth is going to turn around any time soon. And programs like RBI, while well intentioned, are not likely to succeed, since they don't really address the root of the problem.

The difference between baseball on the one hand, and football and basketball on the other, is that while all require athleticism, baseball is much more of a precision sport -- in the sense that golf is a precision sport. You don't see people going straight from high school or college ball to the highest levels in baseball the way you do in the other sports. And you don't hear the occasional stories about the guy who was tending bar one day and playing special teams the next, like you do in football. It just can't be done.

If you're 6'10", someone will ask you to play basketball in hopes you can learn the game. If you're 6'4", 300 lbs. and willing to throw your body in front of an oncoming train, someone will let you play somewhere in the NFL. There is no equivalent in baseball.

In baseball, only years of training and sequential progression can get you to the MLB level as a hitter, pitcher, fielder, etc. You have to have athletic gifts, too, but without the precision skills, all the athletic ability in the world won't get you there. If you don't believe me, ask Michael Jordan.

And most often that training begins at a very young age. By the time you reach high school, the set of young men from which your school team will be drawn is already determined, and many have long since taken themselves out of the running. In contrast, if you just got your growth spurt and went from 5'8" to 6'4" your junior year of HS, you are likely to get a visit from the HS basketball coach asking you to come out for the team. And if you are large and fearless, you can go out for football even late in HS and still find yourself playing. I know one kid who played only his senior year of HS, ended up a walk-on at a I-AA school. Tell me one story like that in baseball.

The year-by-year progression of learning in baseball starts with dads. Dads in the backyards, dads on the Little League fields and in those dugouts. And let's face it, our inner cities suffer most from fatherless households.

Two kids can play a pick-up basketball game. Football is something you can wait to begin in HS. Baseball needs organizers, fields, coaches, someone to get 18 guys out there at once, all at the same time, with umpires and equipment. And the fields need more care prior to game time than does a football field or a gym floor. In my experience about 20% of that work was done at the youth levels by players' moms, the players themselves, and a few volunteers who stayed on long after their kids aged out. The other 80% of the work is done by players' dads.

No dads, no baseball. To me it's that simple.

No amount of hand wringing or PR programs is going to solve that problem. When we make headway on the societal problem, maybe a change in the demographics of baseball players will be one sign of the overall progress. But the loss of African-American youth from baseball is not, IMHO, due to some failing on baseball's part. There are much larger forces at work.
O Orlando1,000+ posts
It's actually a good time to be a black ballplayer. A few guys who have played with my son through AAU and his JuCo were drafted higher than I might have expected had they been white. One in particular, with a great baseball body, has been struggling in the minors, but has been kept on even as a mid-round choice, for three years.

But these few examples wouldn't encourage black players not otherwise interested in the game.

And, by the way, out of the five examples I personally know of, three were from very well-off families.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Orlando:
It's actually a good time to be a black ballplayer. A few guys who have played with my son through AAU and his JuCo were drafted higher than I might have expected had they been white. One in particular, with a great baseball body, has been struggling in the minors, but has been kept on even as a mid-round choice, for three years.

But these few examples wouldn't encourage black players not otherwise interested in the game.

And, by the way, out of the five examples I personally know of, three were from very well-off families.


Of the families of black players at the college or professional level I know personally, all were of at least solid middle class backgrounds, a few with professional backgrounds requiring advanced degrees (docs) and all with TWO parents actively supportive of the player; every single family.
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N njbb1,000+ posts
BillBill

You said that teams should build baseball academy in the US like they do in other countries.
Baseball teams are a business and they need players. They are taking young kids and training them to play baseball. They are not educating them and if they do not develop as players they are released with no other skills... why would we want that for American kids?
Of course baseball should promote baseball in the inner cities its good business but education provides opportunities and baseball is not in the business of education.
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
The comparisons between baseball and other sports are inevitable, but remember that not all athletes grow to NBA size or develop NFL mass. Similarly, not all athletes develop the taste for head smashing, gut wrenching, extreme contact football, or the ego for free-form, exhibition style, showtime events.
What still drives most young people is wanting to be good at something, and being recognized for that. Kids need to be exposed early to the great game of baseball, I will not argue that. What they learn early on will unfold as a part of the foundation for their adult lives. Who exposes them isn't nearly as important. Kids can learn baseball just as they learn basketball or football, or countless other pursuits in life. JMHO
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P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
O.J. Mayo, Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon. Even the most casual sports fan probably knows who they are. But how many people can tell you the names of the top three high school baseball players that graduated in 2007?

Stage Dad 9,

I know what you're getting at but... I can tell you in all certainty that the top three high school players who graduated in 2007 have a much larger bank account today than all four of the athletes you have mentioned.

Not to sound like a know it all but I could tell you who the top 50 or more high school players were in the 2007 class. Only a couple actually chose to go to college rather than sign professional contracts.

More important baseball's biggest advantage for inner city kids doesn't have anything to do with the top few players in any class. It has to do with the number of opportunities that exist. Not million dollar hand outs, but nice bonus's and a big opportunity to hit it big. This is much more attractive to the poor kid from the ghetto than the rich kids who have never worried about whether there was food on the table.

Also, while we are talking about “middle class” black players being the only ones who are going on to play baseball. I could give many examples of poverty stricken black players who given the right opportunity have chosen baseball over other sports. Often choosing baseball out of high school rather than taking the full ride football scholarship at top football colleges.

The problem here is that everyone sees these things based on there own experience or what has happened in their own part of the world. We have no single area of the country to form opinions on. Our experience is not based on location and there are large differences in some parts of the country.

I think it’s OK to say this because there will probably be a book about it some day. Carl Crawford was not “middle class” and he was a very raw outstanding natural athlete who starred in three sports in high school. In fact, he committed to be an option QB at Nebraska (back when Nebraska was still a power) I was told (don’t know for a fact) that he was also recruited to play basketball at UCLA. Before his senior season, his uncle told us that Carl would sign (baseball) at that time for $50,000. Guess that money was more important to him and his single parent mom than playing QB at Nebraska at the time. Well, that year Carl was the first pick of the second round and signed for well over a millon dollars (record 2nd rd money at the time). He was not anywhere near a polished baseball player or someone who had devoted many years to learning the game. In fact, he spent more time working on football and basketball. Baseball got him and I for one am so very happy for him because he is now a multi millionaire. There are other Carl Crawford’s out there and I hope baseball gets some of them.

I do understand that lots of the black baseball players do come from good middle class families, but good families and good people don’t just come in middle or above classes. To me the most appealing aspect of baseball is really geared towards the most poverty stricken. IMO it’s just not being promoted correctly.

Yes, there is a lot to be said about the importance of dads and learning the game. Yes, it is a game that requires lots of things in addition to just athletic ability. But there are many cases of professional players who never pitched being converted to pitchers. Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders didn’t grow up concentrating on developing their baseball skills. While it is an obvious huge advantage to grow up playing and learning the game, there are athletes who can easily overcome this disadvantage and quickly pass others who did grow up playing the game and being led by dad.

I do believe that dads are in most cases the guiding force in baseball, but it doesn’t mean anything is impossible without a dad in the house.

I also understand the “cool” aspect in regards to basketball and football. To me that is what baseball needs to educate young players about. It’s pretty darn “cool” if you’re a Derek Jeter, Carl Crawford, Prince Fielder, Jimmy Rollins, one of the Upton brothers or any other black baseball player who reaches the top. Just as cool and rewarding as it is in the other sports! I think it’s neat when we find out that Lebron is a baseball fan! Makes me a Lebron fan!

Bottom line, I think baseball is failing to educate young inner city youth about the fact that baseball can provide more opportunities, for a larger number of kids, than the other sports.
quote:
Last edited by PGStaff
I iheartbb1,000+ posts
PG Staff-
I think you make a living scouting and evaluating talent, right? So do you actually make an effort to seek out black players that do not make it into your showcases? In certain circumstances the cost may not allow blacks, whites, or hespanics or any other culture for that matter to economically afford to showcase or be on a travel team. So how do you find talent in any cultural/social situation that limits exposure? I ask this as a serious question as there are many of us out here in a variety of colors that simply cannot put out money to participate in these elite programs.
I may be wrong of course, but I think there are a lot of talented players in the outer circle that have the talent and desire, but feel defeated because they don't have the means.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Iheartbb,

We are constantly trying to find and identify the best talent in the country. Often these players do attend our events, but not always. We do not only scout our events. There are many other events we scout including things like the JO tournaments for younger kids.

The rules make it difficult to do a lot for underprivileged kids without risking their eligibility. There are ways to abide by the rules and still help some individuals, but the rules are tough. Usually if we know a kid is extremely talented and can’t afford to attend certain things, we find legal ways to get him there. Often this is done through the many outstanding summer programs throughout the country. Believe it or not, we have even helped players get to other events that aren’t ours.

We do everything we can legally do, but in no way is it enough. Our solution is to find a big sponsor who would see the advantage in allowing kids to attend without paying anything. However, there is still the biggest problem that is associated with the cost of travel, lodging, etc. When someone travels a long distance to attend any event, the actual cost of attending the event is sometimes a small percentage of the overall cost.

To answer your question regarding blacks, Hispanics, etc. We are very proud of the fact that we see most all of those players who end up playing at a higher level. I feel we do as much, if not more, than anyone else when it comes to players of all races. It’s still nowhere near enough and we are planning to improve that in the very near future.

There are talented players out there that for one reason or another do not get identified. If someone has a computer and the player is really talented enough, it only takes a day to get the word out. We have discovered talented players that we have never seen be reading posts or PMs right here on this site. Our network is big enough that we can get a player seen pretty quickly. It sure helps when they come to our events, but whether they do or not, we want to know who the best players are.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Stage 9,

I know you're correct about those kids, even if it might be longer than just one year for one or more. Once again whether it's baseball or basketball, the very top few kids are not the biggest concern with me. Those kids will be treated very well in all sports.

BTW, Prep baseball is improving with more televised events which can only help. We are hoping to get more and more prep baseball events televised.
B BillBill100+ posts
First,let me say that I'm enjoying this discussion and the exchange of different viewpoints and information.

NJBB - I'm trying to make two points: 1) Someone needs to step up and make more opportunities for kids who otherwise don't have the means. Why can't major league baseball do more and be part of the equation? 2) I know MLB is not in the business of providing education per se, but I'm not talking about just focusing on high school aged kids or older. What about the younger kids?

But it is not just MLB. More opportunity could come from a number of sources, including me, including us. But since the topic began with the question of whether MLB is making a politcal statement I'm focusing on things they could do to make it less so.

Major league clubs have invested millions in facilities elsewhere. And I'm sure I'm not the most knowledgable about how they operate but I did read an article about one facility that was identifying kids as young as 12 and 13.

How cool would it be for this type of investment to made in each Major League City? And what could it do for kids as young as 9 or 10 to look forward to being able to possibly go there - just one time or maybe even occassionally?

Think about the motivation that Cooperstown or the LLWS gives kids today - those that can afford the training, practice, and dedication to win their leagues, take time off to travel the state and possibly the region to continue winning the 10 or 11 games it takes to make it to the LLWS. (BTW, all of this takes money and unbelievable parent involvment and time off - at least in most cases)

I know that it is a pipe dream, but when I get over trying to analyze the problem and think about something that could actually be done to capture the attention of more youth and make baseball more attractive this comes to the top of my list.

Some high schools - too many in the core cities as well as some in the boonies - give you a set of uniforms that you need to turn back in at the end of the year, a few helmets, a 10th grade language arts teacher who may have never played the game as a coach and say 'go to it'. We've played some of those teams. Many kids on the team don't even have cleats.

Some NFL teams sponsor fall flag football leagues in the summer. Opening ceremonies, at least for one of the leagues that the Falcons sponsored a few years ago, included several pro ball players and, I think, some instruction and interaction. If not some facilities then maybe 30 or 40k to sponsor a few programs and/or teams. They may be doing more of this than I know, but that's also the point.

Good discussion....
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
1) Someone needs to step up and make more opportunities for kids who otherwise don't have the means.
Is baseball becoming a country club sport with travel, showcases and training? Who do you see at country clubs? Who don't you see? On the other hand travel (AAU) basketball isn't cheap with the travel, yet inner city community leaders raise sponsors to get the teams and players almost anything.

It really comes down to a cultural thing most black kids think baseball is uncool. Black pro baseball players are going to have to step up. The kids might listen to them. One of the top AAU basketball teams in our area has an NBA Hall of Famer as a major sponsor. I don't see anything like that in baseball. The prominent face in our area's RBI program is a white, former MLB backup catcher. Black kids aren't going to relate.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
quote:
1) Someone needs to step up and make more opportunities for kids who otherwise don't have the means.
Is baseball becoming a country club sport with travel, showcases and training? Who do you see at country clubs? Who don't you see? On the other hand travel (AAU) basketball isn't cheap with the travel, yet inner city community leaders raise sponsors to get the teams and players almost anything.

It really comes down to a cultural thing most black kids think baseball is uncool. Black pro baseball players are going to have to step up. The kids might listen to them. One of the top AAU basketball teams in our area has an NBA Hall of Famer as a major sponsor. I don't see anything like that in baseball. The prominent face in our area's RBI program is a white, former MLB backup catcher. Black kids aren't going to relate.


No, baseball is not a country club sport. It has a long way to go to match the average cost of about $50K per year, per player to be competitive at junior golf on the AGJA circuit. You are correct. AAU basketball teams travel just like baseball teams. I really don't think money is the issue.
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DO Dear old Dad100+ posts
These threads come up every so often here. Is MLB doing enough for African-Americans? Why aren't there more African-Americans playing? What can we do to get more African-Americans playing?

None of the responses I have read so far speak to the reality of the situation. It may be politically incorrect to tell the truth nowadays but must we all bow to the religion of PC.

African-Americans make up roughly 13% of the American population. MLB has approx. 8.5% African American players. Factor in that MLB is open to people of all countries, that African-Americans are culturally committed to basketball and football and that many Hispanics in MLB have Black Ancestry and African-Americans are represented quite well in MLB.

The misguided theory is that because there are 70% African Americans playing basketball and football, they must be over-represented everywhere. Let's take that logic to its conclusion in football:

African-Americans make up 70% of football players,

Therefore -- they should be 70 percent or more of ALL positions including quarterback

Therefore -- they should be 70 percent or more of assistant coaches and head coaches

Therefore -- they should be 70 percent or more of football announcers

Therefore -- they should be 70 percent of GMs and other NFL franchise executives

Therefore -- they should be 70 percent of owners of NFL teams

And finally -

Therefore -- they should hold 70 percent of all sports positions in the United States.

I guess that if an individual has enough physical talent to compete in a sport at the highest level that instantly qualifies him to be a coach, GM or executive, responsible for many lives other than his own. Truth be told, most athletes can't balance their own checkbook much less run a business.

The current ideology preaches that modern day sports are in fact still riddled with white racism. Despite the preponderance of non-whites in most major sports the only racial issues discussed in the mainstream media(and here) are the few places where there is a lack of "minorities." Even NASCAR, a sport that is attached to white Southern culture, is expected to diversify for no other reason than to appease the multicult zealots.

The percentages are fine -- let's move on.
C Catfish1,000+ posts
Guys, we're doing it again. We do it every year around this time. You can set your calendars by when this subject pop's up. Rather than rehash this again. I'll just post my response from October, 2005. Nothing's changed, as predicted.

I will add a couple of things:

We still seem to lump all Blacks in the same category.
We seem to think that all Blacks come from the inner city or the ghetto.
We seem to feel that all Blacks come from Fatherless homes.
We still think that Blacks are not interested in Baseball.

I guess it's okay if anyone wants to believe this. And, I guess someone could pull some statistics to "prove" me wrong. But this is not what I see everyday. And the harmful thing about believing this is that we base our assumptions and our opinions on these myths, and therefore, make decisions about people based on these false assumptions. How many of you came from fatherless homes? How many Major League Players have come from fatherless homes. Folks, that's not what's keeping Blacks out of baseball.

Posted by Catfish, October 31, 2005 03:56 PM Post #388.

"This thread has been very interesting. Every year around this time the topic of Blacks in Baseball, or the lack there of, comes up. And every year the same reasons pop up: Baseball is too expensive for Blacks; the lack of playing fields in the inner city; and, there is more interest among Blacks in football and basketball than in baseball. While all of these reasons may have minimal impact, none of them is the true reason why, in my humble opinion, there are less Blacks playing college and pro baseball. Honestly, guys, I sometimes feel like Richard Wright's Invisible Man on these boards when we talk about this particular topic. My take on this is so different from many of yours.

In my particular area of the country, there are more Blacks in the suburbs than there are in the inner City of Atlanta. The "inner" City of Atlanta is fast becoming half White. Give it another Five years and it will be, which will be a good thing for Atlanta. Atlanta was once predominantly White, but Whites succumbed to "White Flight." I work with a large number of those who fled and they regret it. Many of them would like to move back close to their jobs but now cannot even afford to move back in to the very house they sold because the property values in Atlanta have literally gone through the roof.

Now please hear me on this: Thousands of Black kids all over the Atlanta Metropolitan area play teeball/baseball during the ages of 5 through 12 or 13. We have baseball parks all over the place and each Spring they are teeming with young Black players. It is around the age of 13 that you see Black kids start to give up baseball. Usually, many of them have played baseball, basketball and football during those years.

Okay, this kid is now in junior high where the high school football and basketball coaches have a huge network to identify those young players who have the ability to play football and/or basketball. Once those kids have been identified the pressure is on.

I've made this point countless times before: Genetics (Height), for the most part, will determinine which of those young players will play basketball. For the other good athletes, the high school football coach has only to point to the College and Pro baseball rosters to "prove" to the young athlete that he does not have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding in baseball. The football and basketball coaches will literally hound these players until either the parents step in, which was our case, or until the athlete gives in. Folks, believe me, it doesn't take much to convince most great Black athletes, who also have the ability to play two or more sports to give up baseball. All the coach has to do is to ask these three questions: "How many Blacks do you see on (any major D-1 baseball team)? "How many Blacks do you see on (any Pro baseball team)?" To these questions the kid will answer, without even having to think about it, either "none" or "1 or 2". Then the final question: "In which sport do you see yourself having a chance to succeed past the high school level and possibly get any kind of scholarship or even make a living?" I'll let you all answer that question."

This post (#388) goes on for five or six more paragraphs, if you care to read it all, I think it's on page 9 if you go to: Catfish, View the most recent posts. Maybe someone can tell me how to take it from there and post it here.
I guess the point I would like to make is, as Joe Morgan said on National TV this year, "If you're not looking for a BLack Baseball Player then you won't find him." I guarantee you if financial incentives were given for scouts to find good Black baseball players, they would find them because they are out there.

I ended that post in October, 2005 and again last year with the same words that I will end this one with today: ...And, so here we are again discussing the same issue that we discussed last year and still, nothing has changed.
Last edited by Catfish
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
Catfish - I looked up your post in October of 2005 and here it is. If you want to copy all or part of a post, drag select by clicking over top of the words you want to copy, cntrl-C to copy it, and then cntrl-V to paste into the reply of interest. BTW - you are one of the best posters we have on the hsbbweb and I wish you would post more often Smile
quote:
posted by Catfish in October of 2005:
This thread has been very interesting. Every year around this time the topic of Blacks in Baseball, or the lack there of, comes up. And every year the same reasons pop up: Baseball is too expensive for Blacks; the lack of playing fields in the inner city; and, there is more interest among Blacks in football and basketball than in baseball. While all of these reasons may have minimal impact, none of them is the true reason why, in my humble opinion, there are less Blacks playing college and pro baseball. Honestly, guys, I sometimes feel like Richard Wright's, Invisible Man, on these boards when we talk about this particular topic. My take on this is so different from many of yours.

In my particular area of the country, there are more Blacks in the suburbs than there are in the inner City of Atlanta. The "inner" City of Atlanta is fast becoming half White. Give it another five years and it will be, which will be a good thing for Atlanta. Atlanta was once predominantly White, but Whites succumbed to "White Flight." I work with a large number of those who fled and they regret it. Many of them would like to move back close to their jobs but now cannot even afford to move back into the very house they sold because the property values in Atlanta have literally gone through the roof.

Now please hear me on this: Thousands of Black kids all over the Atlanta Metropolitan area play teeball/baseball during the ages of 5 through 12 or 13. We have baseball parks all over the place and each Spring they are teeming with young Black players. It is around the age of 13 that you see Black kids start to give up baseball. Usually, many of them have played baseball, basketball and football during those years.

Okay, now this kid is in junior high where the high school football and basketball coaches have a huge network to identify those young players who have the ability to play football and basketball. Once those kids have been identified the pressure is on.

I've made this point countless times before: Genetics (Height), for the most part, will determine which of those young players will play basketball. For the other good athletes, the high school football coach has only to point to the College and Pro baseball rosters to "prove" to the young athlete that he does not have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding in baseball. The football coaches will literally hound these players until either the parents step in, which was our case, or until the athlete gives in. Folks, believe me, it doesn't take much to convince most great Black athletes who also have football abilities to give up baseball. All the coach has to do is ask these three questions: "How many Blacks do you see on (any major D-1 baseball team)?" How many Blacks do you see on (any Pro baseball team)? To these questions the kid will answer, without even having to think about it, either "none" or "1 or 2"). Then the final question: "In which sport do you see yourself having a chance to succeed past the high school level and possibly get any kind of scholarship or even make a living?" I'll let you all answer that question.

Many of you may say that if the athlete "loves" the game of baseball then he won't allow anyone to change his mind. People, we are talking about kids who have dreams of succeeding in life. Many of whom, but not all, and certainly not as many as you would think, come from families whose incomes are below the poverty level. (As a sidebar, and I think many of you can attest, that just because your family's income does not meet the threshold that the government says you should exceed to get out of the poverty level status, does not make you poor.) These kids want to succeed in baseball and if a Black parent, even a poor Black parent thought that it would pay off in the end with some assistance in college and beyond, they would go without, if they had to, to provide there child with the proper baseball equipment, no matter how expensive.

The great Black athletes who remain in baseball definitely do so because they love the game. But even the love for the game is wearing thin for many of these athletes because of the very reason that bbscout said: Black baseball players are not being recruited by college recruiters! It is at this level that Black baseball players are being lost.

I will also say that unless the Black baseball player is a super stud like Delmon Young or a Prince Fielder or a Rickie Weeks they get ignored even by the pro scouts. The regular solid, good, Black baseball player is ignored by everyone. It's almost like a Black baseball player has to be a super stud already, to even get noticed and eventually drafted. If I were a Scouting Director, who was truely interested in increasing the number of Blacks in baseball, I would give my scouts these instructions: "We know that the first 10 or so rounds are reserved for those players who are rated very high, and that should not change. What I would like for you to do is this. Focus part of your efforts on finding Black players who have good solid skills, who are not your stand-outs, but can play the game. Draft them in the later rounds and let's see what happens." I'm simplifying this a lot but I think you get my point.

This seems to be a no-brainer to me. When will baseball recruiters and scouts realize that many Black baseball players have not had the training and instruction that many Whites have had because many baseball coaches in the Black communities lack the skills to teach them. Typically, Black baseball coaches didn't play baseball in college or professionally and truthfully don't really know a lot about what it takes to properly develop a good hitter or fielder, let alone teach the proper mechanics to develop a good pitcher.

Many of you know that I am a realist and I go over board to be fair. But I also call it like I see it. Some of the blame lies at the feet of the Black pro baseball athlete who, once they have retired, does not come back to the Black community and teach our young kids the proper way to play baseball as many of the retired White pro athletes do. I can name Tony Gwynn and maybe a few others and that's it. But, to be fair, there are not very many Black retired pro baseball players to begin with. So, what's the solution?

Until, we put into place some means, or some incentives, for college recruiters and in many cases, pro scouts, to look beyond the stereotypes and know that there are many good Black baseball players out there who love the game of baseball and only need a opportunity to get good instruction, develop and prove that they can play, then nothing will change.

...And so here we are again discussing the same issue that we discussed last year and still, nothing has changed.
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