Coach's Son

He's a Freshman.  Can he play other positions (one would think he certainly could if he's a Shortstop).  Personally I wouldn't really worry about it.   Just tell him to focus on getting better.   

I don't mean this as an attack on you, but the blunt way to say this is that it's none of your business. Your son is old enough that he should speak for himself if he considers it an issue. Nothing good can come from you talking to the coach.

You most definitely should present your son with the options (say nothing, talk to the varsity coach, as the JV coach, or transfer schools) and let you son decide.

As much as we want to help our sons and see them succeed, there comes a time when we have to let them fight their own battles and make their own way.

Learn third.  It will help him in college if there's a better player already at SS when he gets there. Grow his skills.  

I assume your son plays SS on JV, shine there and change the V coaches mind with performance.  Make it so obvious that the coach cannot deny it. Get better.

Line-up and possition decisions are not something parents can control.   Don't waste time trying. 

Tough spot. My kid was in that position as a freshman, the starting SS was a senior...could NOT hit and was average on the dirt. My son got to start a few games but not many. I tend to think it was an experience thing with our coach along with some loyalties. Patience and performance usually make things work out as you are not in an unreasonable situation. Good luck.

Sorry to read about DB at this level. I agree woth Kos and also think this is an issue your son has to deal with. My kid is an utility player on his frosh team. They are finding a way to keep him on the field and hit with a roster of 18. He is fine with it and will use every opportunity given to him to show why he belongs on the field and in the batting line up. To quote William Munny "deserves got nothing to do with it"

PA,

Tough spot for sure.  I'm in total agreement with Bandera.   If this was my son, I'd suggest your son learn a new position for the time being..even outfield if necessary.   It may be beneficial down the road as you don't know what lies ahead in 4 years.   Possibly your son runs into a log jam at SS in college...what is he going to do then?  If he cracks the lineup now, he's gets to bat and show what he can do at the plate.  The quickest way to a coaches heart (besides sharing his DNA) is raking it at the plate.  ;-)

Good luck!

Tough spot.  Kid in our high school was blocked by football coach's son at QB.  Kid was a far superior player.  After discussing with coach and AD, forced to r-eclass at a private school. 

Kid is now literally top 10 high school QB, with offers to Michigan, UCLA, NC State, Vandy, you name it.  Daddy Ball let the best football our high school will ever see walk.  And, oh yeah, I think we won 6 games the past 2 seasons combined.

You are not the coach.  What are you even talking about? Quit getting worked up.  Just enjoy the games.  Enjoy your son.

[I am speaking as someone who also got worked up over these things.  Be like the Frozen song "Let it go"]

Be encouraging but the one big thing is what does your 2019 think?  If my son who is a 2019 also thought something was wrong, he would have the ability to go to the coach and say it.  I also know that a ss has to be able to play multiple positions for high level travel and college.  The starting ss at the college my son is going to attend for the past two years was moved to third this year and one coming in this year was moved to second and another is playing first and another is playing center field.  You have to be able to play multiple positions  One of the easiest ways to get noticed. 

I agree with others....take this opportunity to learn whatever position he can play if it gets him on the field.  Son's freshman class at college had 6 kids....5 of them were the starting SS on their HS team (4 were all state).  None of those 5 have played ONE inning at SS since they got there.  One has been a 4 year starter at second.  1 is the starter in RF, 1 has played some 1B and 3B, my son is the DH and the last kid transferred.  There's only 1 SS position...but 8 other spots need defense and bats.  Heck, at one point we had kids that were recruited as catchers playing RF and LF.  If you can play, you'll play...sure everyone wants to be the SS, but anything is better than being on the bench

Pa, where does 2022 play when he is brought up?  And, does he play ss for his travel team?  Assuming he stays on the same track with his progression and talent, he will likely be the V ss junior and senior year, right?  I don't think that is an unusual path, even for very talented players, in a good program for a variety of reasons - even if more talented than the guy in front of them.  So, how he handles things meanwhile is very important (maintaining good attitude and team focus, even toward the coach's son).  Very good lessons for next level and other life-related scenarios.

Another glass-half-full thing to note is that he is being moved back and forth so sounds like they are at least making sure he continues to get game reps somewhere.

Side note...   Meanwhile, If 2022 continues to gain ground on coach son, at some point in the next year and a half, coach will hear/feel pressure to react.  He may or may not do so but things do change.  That pressure will be applied from other sources.  Definitely something you want to stay clear of.

PS - regarding your question as to whether the other players or coaches should bring this up... keep in mind, they are in a very tough spot too... how do they, in effect, say something negative about the boss' son to the boss?  The pressure will likely come from elsewhere or by accident (coach overhears player rumblings).  An asst. coach would have to be a very astute diplomat to navigate those waters.   

Given that your older boy is a Power 5 recruit, I take it you're aware of the process and from that, I'm going to guess that your 2022 is going to be fine in that process as well.

There are a lot of reasons to leave a top freshman on JV.  For one, it gives him the opportunity to establish himself as the leader among his classmates.  For another, he may be needed to pitch at that level -- something he is likely unprepared for at the varsity level.  Some would also like to see a top player hit .450 on JV, instead of .225 on varsity, just from a confidence-building standpoint.  All of which is to say, you may see bias that isn't really the root cause.

Worst case, your kid plays another position this year and next, then has 2 years as the lead dog.  I don't see a problem here.  BTW, even coaches' sons pull hamstrings and such, so don't assume you'll have to wait even that long.

The big question we always get about our infielders is, can they play OF?  If you look at the rosters of most elite college teams, the starting lineups are full of former HS shortstops.  Why?  Because on most HS teams, the SS is simply the top athlete on the roster.  In college, only one ultimately gets the SS job.  The one with less range moves to 3B, the one with a weaker arm plays 2B, the one with an erratic arm plays 1B, and the fast ones who struggle with grounder or turning the DP move to the OF.  The really slow-footed kid with the cannon arm might get tried behind the plate.

In your son's case, there's only one SS position to go around, but there are 3 OF slots.  I would suggest your son work on shagging flies for now and make himself available.  If he's one of the best 9 bats available, he'll play. 

Maybe he'll go back to SS in due time.  Or maybe he won't.  Some folks discover they like another position more.  At one point in time, both Willie Mays and Henry Aaron were shortstops.

Don't know the situation, but it would seem like something's missing. To me, your kids only way on the field (assuming he is good enough) isn't just to beat out the "coach's son." If he should be the starting SS it seems like he should be able to beat out at least one other position; 2b, 3b, LF or maybe even RF if he can hit at the varsity level. It may not be as much about the daddy ball process as it seems. 

Again, I don't know the situation, but I know we have a pretty good junior SS and a pretty good freshman SS. The freshman simply doesn't hit consistently well enough yet to take over a spot, but he has played in varsity games at SS, 3b, 2b and LF. He's our everyday JV SS so he can develop his freshman year.

I will also tell you the story of Keith Werman, a class of 2008 grad from a high school in northern VA.

Keith's older brother, Kyle, had been the starting 2B at UVA before the current group of coaches came in, and kept that job for his senior year after they got there.  Keith's dad coached Legion ball, so suffice it to say, he came from a baseball family.

He was a smaller kid, but had a Flutie-like arm and could definitely tackle SS.  He ended up as a recruited walk-on at UVA. 

His senior year, you might think should've been his personal victory lap. 

But his HS team's only real catcher had graduated in 2007, and the next guys up were young and not ready for prime time.  So Keith VOLUNTEERED to go behind the plate. 

The result:  His team won its district, maybe its region (not sure at this point.) I am sure that Keith was his region's AAA player of the year.

What becomes of a kid who does that for his team, you may wonder?  Well, he got to UVA, but no one really thought he'd play much.  Too small for the ACC, was the consensus.

In Keith's case, every one of his 4 years, some one expected a hot shot UVA recruit to take his job.  He never had any real power, after all.  He might get a triple if he lined one right over the bag.  The outfield always played him shallow. 

But every year, he won out, started, and produced, mostly at 2B.

BTW, the starting 2B the year before him, Phil Gosselin, remains a major leaguer to this day.  His MLB position is primarily SS, but he plays all the infield positions.  But Gosselin played a lot of left field his last three years at UVA.

Perhaps that's because Werman beat him out.  Or maybe it's because Gosselin, too, embraced the team concept and saw that the team as a whole was better if both he and Werman were in the lineup at the same time.  And maybe that's part of why Gosselin is still drawing pro paychecks to this day.

Several years ago Florida State had an all conference shortstop. A coach was fired from another college. He was brought in as an assistant. The assistant was a buddy of the head coach. He brought his starting shortstop son with him (just before sit out a year transfer rules).

Looking into the future the assistant’s son didn’t make the majors. But the all conference shortstop volunteered to move to catcher. He became an all star catcher for the San Francisco Giants.

All while also serving as FSU's closer!

Coach Koz posted:

I don't mean this as an attack on you, but the blunt way to say this is that it's none of your business. Your son is old enough that he should speak for himself if he considers it an issue. Nothing good can come from you talking to the coach.

You most definitely should present your son with the options (say nothing, talk to the varsity coach, as the JV coach, or transfer schools) and let you son decide.

As much as we want to help our sons and see them succeed, there comes a time when we have to let them fight their own battles and make their own way.

None taken, although I did directly mention that I would not do any of those things.

Even though it is not directly my business, it is something that definitely involves me. The kid feels he is better, wants to practice with varsity everyday, wants to get better playing with older guys, wants to start for and represent his school. I can't blame him. He's in high school and will handle it himself, I'm not going to intervene, but he's also 14 and hasn't had many "business" conversations with adults, I'm just trying to give some advice without using the daddy ball excuse. 

cabbagedad posted:

Pa, where does 2022 play when he is brought up?  And, does he play ss for his travel team?  Assuming he stays on the same track with his progression and talent, he will likely be the V ss junior and senior year, right?  I don't think that is an unusual path, even for very talented players, in a good program for a variety of reasons - even if more talented than the guy in front of them.  So, how he handles things meanwhile is very important (maintaining good attitude and team focus, even toward the coach's son).  Very good lessons for next level and other life-related scenarios.

Another glass-half-full thing to note is that he is being moved back and forth so sounds like they are at least making sure he continues to get game reps somewhere.

Side note...   Meanwhile, If 2022 continues to ground on coach son, at some point in the next year and a half, coach will hear/feel pressure to react.  He may or may not do so but things do change.  That pressure will be applied from other sources.  Definitely something you want to stay clear of.

PS - regarding your question as to whether the other players or coaches should bring this up... keep in mind, they are in a very tough spot too... how do they, in effect, say something negative about the boss' son to the boss?  The pressure will likely come from elsewhere or by accident (coach overhears player rumblings).  An asst. coach would have to be a very astute diplomat to navigate those waters.   

He's been getting ABs late in games and innings in the field at SS and 3B (although it isn't always pretty at third). He has always played SS for his travel teams but will be moving up to big boy travel this summer and his coach made it clear that he's taking 5 SS and they will be rotating between SS/2B/3B, which is how I think it should be done. He will be learning third for the rest of spring/summer, but for now even I would not start him there. The second baseman kills the ball and should absolutely be starting. I'm not sure he is at the level of the other OFs for now either. 

He's not above Jv, but the problem that I'm seeing is that JV is kind of a joke. A joke as in the coaches don't care and the kids aren't really there to get better. Most of the time they will be rotating innings and getting an AB a game. It is more of a keep them interested and see what we have next year type situation. That is part of the reason I'm asking this to begin with, it goes beyond the starter issue. 

But I agree with everything you said. I'm not worried about him or his baseball future, that will work itself out. It is not  a great situation for anybody, coach included, especially if his son starts struggling. 

PABaseball posted:

 He's in high school and will handle it himself, I'm not going to intervene, but he's also 14 and hasn't had many "business" conversations with adults, I'm just trying to give some advice without using the daddy ball excuse. 

 

Believe me, I get it. I have a 13 year old and I know I have to bite my tongue sometimes as well as push him to be hos own man. A kid growing up is tough on parents, too.

Learn and excel at a different position.  It will make him a valuable recruit if it is shown he is the best at several positions.  Son experienced this first hand.  In high school son played 3 different positions with accolades. A D1 college recruited him and he played a different position for the TEAM's benefit.  Jr. year he was also at a different position.  All 3 college years many accolades and ended up being selected in MLB draft, and now back at his ORIGINAL position from high school.  Learning different positions won't hurt you as long as you have the talent.

I actually hadn't thought about my own kid with this until some others mentioned their sons' journeys.  It was a different situation than PABASEBALL's, though, because the HS team was not good his freshman year.  Even as a small lefty, he was rotated around as V catcher, 1B, pitcher and CF from freshman through junior years because the team wasn't deep enough for him to play CF all the time - too many leaks in those other spots and they just needed a baseball player to make baseball plays where the ball was touched the most.  Over those years, the program gradually developed depth and he ended his senior year strictly in CF.  They had completely turned the page and become very successful.  

It was what the team needed at the time and did help him in a lot of ways, I think, down the road.

If your son can play SS, then there is no way in hell that he can't adjust and play 3B. For that matter, he should also be able to play OF. That's where most SS end in college, anyway. Just keep being useful, and hit the ball.

I don't want to get into my eldest's situation, but let's just say that I know of what I speak. Ironically, he might finally end up back at SS in his sophomore year in college. The last time he played a full year of SS was a Freshman in HS...I never got what they were doing with him in the interim.

I will say that around here it is very rare, if not unheard of, to have a Freshman play Varsity SS, unless it is on a small town team.

Relax, at 14 he doesn't have to play varsity yet. Just continue to get better and in a year or so he will play whether at ss or somewhere else if he can hit.

57special posted:

If your son can play SS, then there is no way in hell that he can't adjust and play 3B. For that matter, he should also be able to play OF. That's where most SS end in college, anyway. Just keep being useful, and hit the ball.

I don't want to get into my eldest's situation, but let's just say that I know of what I speak. Ironically, he might finally end up back at SS in his sophomore year in college. The last time he played a full year of SS was a Freshman in HS...I never got what they were doing with him in the interim.

I will say that around here it is very rare, if not unheard of, to have a Freshman play Varsity SS, unless it is on a small town team.

I get the thought process behind that, and it makes sense. I'm sure he is capable of playing other positions, but having almost played exclusively SS his whole life, he is not at the level of the other starters for now, which is fine. Playing third for the first time in scrimmages, seeing live balls off bigger kids with beards isn't going to end well for now until he gets more reps under his belt. He will be fine, but he is not there yet.

Not a small town team, medium sized school, but I'm not exactly from a baseball hotbed. There are plenty of talented players in my area, but to find a team with 5+ college commits of any level would be rare and the cream of the crop. That is fairly common in other states. You can go to any HS game within a 2 hr drive and most likely find a freshman on the field probably 70% of the time. 

PABaseball posted:

57special posted:

If your son can play SS, then there is no way in hell that he can't adjust and play 3B. For that matter, he should also be able to play OF. That's where most SS end in college, anyway. Just keep being useful, and hit the ball.

I don't want to get into my eldest's situation, but let's just say that I know of what I speak. Ironically, he might finally end up back at SS in his sophomore year in college. The last time he played a full year of SS was a Freshman in HS...I never got what they were doing with him in the interim.

I will say that around here it is very rare, if not unheard of, to have a Freshman play Varsity SS, unless it is on a small town team.

I get the thought process behind that, and it makes sense. I'm sure he is capable of playing other positions, but having almost played exclusively SS his whole life, he is not at the level of the other starters for now, which is fine. Playing third for the first time in scrimmages, seeing live balls off bigger kids with beards isn't going to end well for now until he gets more reps under his belt. He will be fine, but he is not there yet.

So he should play JV...

Dominik85 posted:

Relax, at 14 he doesn't have to play varsity yet. Just continue to get better and in a year or so he will play whether at ss or somewhere else if he can hit.

I'm definitely relaxed, just posing a question to see if others have been in a similar situation as a coach or parent.

But I also don't subscribe to the wait your turn method. You're either better than the kid at your position or you're not. Kids don't think about leveling expectations, especially very competitive kids with goals bigger than making a team. They want to be around better players that elevate their game and they want to play in meaningful games. 

If you take the - he's only a freshman - approach, it becomes the - he's only a sophomore approach. He's also a wrestler. Had to wrestle off the other guy at his weight for a starting spot, so that is where I'm sure it becomes a frustrating. 

PABaseball posted:

I get the thought process behind that, and it makes sense. I'm sure he is capable of playing other positions, but having almost played exclusively SS his whole life..

My son is still in the 7th grade and he has been primarily a SS/P in his young career but when we practice and when I coach his rec & travel teams I move him around the IF and OF. A few years ago he asked to try catcher and he gunned out 3 runners his first day behind the plate (he also had too many passed balls, but that's another story).

Last year I didn't coach him in travel but he told the coach he'd play anywhere and while he was still primarily a SS/P he played every other position during the course of the season including a lot of time at 1B. Not only did he love playing other positions, but also because we train at other positions he's confident when he's asked to play somewhere else. In the end, he'll be a better ballplayer for it no matter what position he ends up playing.

Try playing for a team that has 3 kids on varsity and one more on the way next year with the same last name as the head coach. Many kids have left the program over the past few years because of the belief that they were not getting a fair shot.  Many of the others are unhappy now.  It’s a really tough situation, coach’s family are not stand outs but are not terrible either. The problem is that the perception was not handled well. Now, so many kids have left that there is limited competition and of course, the family gets to play.   The team has suffered, the players have suffered. Perception is a big thing. Is it even possible for a coach to be unbiased toward his kids???? I really dont think so anymore.  I won’t go into specific details, but it has been handled poorly and what was a pretty decent program, is now declining rapidly, on and off the field. 

There is plenty of blame to be shared, from coaches, parents, and players. It will have a negative effect on this program for numerous years. 

Even if this were handled well, it’s a really tough situation. When it’s not handled well, it’s tough to watch. 

wareagle posted:

Try playing for a team that has 3 kids on varsity and one more on the way next year with the same last name as the head coach. Many kids have left the program over the past few years because of the belief that they were not getting a fair shot.  Many of the others are unhappy now.  It’s a really tough situation, coach’s family are not stand outs but are not terrible either. The problem is that the perception was not handled well. Now, so many kids have left that there is limited competition and of course, the family gets to play.   The team has suffered, the players have suffered. Perception is a big thing. Is it even possible for a coach to be unbiased toward his kids???? I really dont think so anymore.  I won’t go into specific details, but it has been handled poorly and what was a pretty decent program, is now declining rapidly, on and off the field. 

There is plenty of blame to be shared, from coaches, parents, and players. It will have a negative effect on this program for numerous years. 

Even if this were handled well, it’s a really tough situation. When it’s not handled well, it’s tough to watch. 

Out of curiosity, assuming the coach is concerned with outside perception which in and of itself is a slippery slope, how do you handle something like this "well," and how do you handle it poorly?

Meaning if you were the coach with sons coming through, what would do in regard to outside perception?

And this is not a sarcastic response. I'm looking to educate myself as I haven't been through it and I my wind up there.

I don't think you ever win with a kid on the field even if they are the best player by all accounts, stats, eye test, and any other area.  There are parents who will still think that you are being biased.  My son was all-state his freshman and sophomore years and had a .000 era his sophomore year but we still heard it.  Most parents knew he was one of the best his freshman year but there were still the ones who thought their player got jilted.   As a parent and a coach you cannot win, even if you win. 

Same situation at our school, but didn't involve my son. Coaches son was returning Senior SS. Very good Freshman, better hitter, better fielder, not close really, everyone could see it. It all worked out in the end, but not after some hurt feelings. Bottom line, after 5-6 games the Freshman was moved to SS where he played all 4 years. Coaches son stayed in the lineup, but changed positions. Coach absolutely did the right thing for the team, but to say there was hurt feelings would be an understatement. It's a tough position for a coach to be in. Do the right thing for the whole team, or keep family peace. I already had a tremendous amount of respect for coach prior, but it shot through the roof when he made the switch. It was the right thing to do for the best of the team. There are alot of coaches that don't have the huevos to make the move, or are blinded by loyalty when reality is slapping them repeatedly in the face.   

Ironhorse

I am not sure that there is a really good way, but for starters there should be open and equal opportunities to earn positions. Right or wrong, I think a coach has to be tougher or at leat as tough on his own kids. He has to be open to ask and accept other coach’s opinions when it comes to his kids, and they have to feel as if they can be honest and express thier opinions. The coach has to be very conscious of how people’s and other players perceptions can affect the whole team and act accordingly. 

Yes, there will always be nay sayers regardless. But, when you come out there with an attitude of “its my kids and my team, I can do whatever I want” It has a negative effect on the whole program. Compound that by several kids and a 7-8 year time span, you must take a hard look at where the program is headed.  I promise you the younger kids and parents are watching and moving schools if don’t think they will be treated fairly. 

How does he hit?  Every coach is trying to get the best 9 hitters on the line up card.  Secondary is how to get the best 9 players on the field.  Were they play on the field is a lower priority.  

FYI - Most STUD (P5 Prospect) freshman are not as good at the plate as average plus upperclassman.

Most rosters will have strong bats that are slow regulated to first and third.  Speed up the middle, 4,6,8, and than the tweeners land in left and right...  

real green posted:

How does he hit?  Every coach is trying to get the best 9 hitters on the line up card.  Secondary is how to get the best 9 players on the field.  Were they play on the field is a lower priority.  

FYI - Most STUD (P5 Prospect) freshman are not as good at the plate as average plus upperclassman.

Most rosters will have strong bats that are slow regulated to first and third.  Speed up the middle, 4,6,8, and than the tweeners land in left and right...  

Small sample size, but he's hitting well in the scrimmages. No strikeouts against the older, faster pitching, which even I was surprised about considering he probably hasn't seen 80+ live more than a handful of times. He's killing the ball on JV, but given the level of competition, that isn't saying too much.

I completely agree with the stud freshman vs upperclassman bat. Hoping he'll start seeing more ABs so I can get a better idea of how well he's really seeing the ball. Season starts in about 10 days, they'll be facing one of the better pitching staffs in our area this weekend so I'd like to see how he holds up. This might be a weird and somewhat rare situation where the starting SS might be one of the weaker players on the team. 

PABaseball posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Relax, at 14 he doesn't have to play varsity yet. Just continue to get better and in a year or so he will play whether at ss or somewhere else if he can hit.

I'm definitely relaxed, just posing a question to see if others have been in a similar situation as a coach or parent.

But I also don't subscribe to the wait your turn method. You're either better than the kid at your position or you're not. Kids don't think about leveling expectations, especially very competitive kids with goals bigger than making a team. They want to be around better players that elevate their game and they want to play in meaningful games. 

If you take the - he's only a freshman - approach, it becomes the - he's only a sophomore approach. He's also a wrestler. Had to wrestle off the other guy at his weight for a starting spot, so that is where I'm sure it becomes a frustrating. 

I can understand that but it is still a freshman. Most coaches only play the freshman if he is clearly superior to the older player. I mean isn't it better to get regular at bats in jv than one or two at bats per game in varsity? 

The coach might just value his long term development higher than marginal wins now.

Im not saying he should wait until he is a senior but if he loses motivation because he doesn't start as a freshman maybe he doesn't love baseball as much. I mean I could understand it it is the same situation in a year or two but it is pretty normal for freshmen to wait a year and it probably is better for him to get regular of at bats than occasional varsity at bats.

My kid was the DH on the first game of the season. He was happy. He did the book...made me happy

he is the coaches son,........How many times do we hear this.  this starts way before high school. that being said a high school coach whose son is on the team is in a no win situation  His son could be the best player and the only reason he is playing is because he is the coaches son. If he dies not play or is subbed for the coach has to go home and eat dinner with him. I attended games in high school when my son played. after a game I decided to sit down the right field line away from the parents who did nothing but complain why their son was not playing or was hitting seventh or playing 3rd base instead of short. 

My kid started Varsity as a freshman.  She led the team in just about every offensive category.  She went undefeated in the circle and threw a no hitter and perfect game.  She was 1st team everything as a freshman.  Members of the JV quit because she was starting on the varsity.  You can't please everyone and the coach's kid isn't always a terrible player who only gets to start because dad is the coach.  

I have no problem with putting a kid on the field that has earned it.  My kid has not been affected by this at all. So no sour grapes here.  The team has been affected greatly. When the kids can tell who the starters are gonna be before the first day of tryouts its obvious.  The whole attitude of the team has been lazy, because they really don't think anything they do will matter anyway( quite possibly true).  So the effect is that no one is playing well, so then it becomes even easier for the coach to justify his decisions. Either way, I just hate to see my oldest son's senior year end up this way. My younger son has already transferred across town for strictly social reasons (more friends there and academically the schools are comparable, so we always gave both our boys a choice).  But if he were still there, and wanted to play baseball, I would be leery of the program at this point.  This is really tough, because for several years, people tried to say this was going to happen, and I defended the coach and program whole heartedly, and I now I believe that I was wrong.  And Yes, I tried to adress this before the season even started with the coaching staff.

About 10 years ago our local HS had a similar problem.  15 year tenured Coaches son was about to become a 3 year starter at SS, All-State in Sr. year on a team that won the State  finished top 30 nationally in a few polls. He also played DI baseball.  He was an outstanding player in every way. 

Sounds hard to beat but he was probably the 3rd best SS in the program as a Sr.  The sophomore playing JV got a DI scholarship before setting foot in a varsity game and transferred to another school.  The freshman SS behind him transferred to IMG and got a scholly to play at a SEC national powerhouse.  We were loaded - school had 15 players that eventually played DI between the JV and Varsity and another 6-8 that played in college.  

Despite the success of that individual team it would have been better for the program had he moved to 2nd base or CF since there was also a All State 2nd baseman there at the time.  

In the end everyone knew what the deal was and it wasn't changing.  So 2 very talented kids moved on.

luv baseball posted:

About 10 years ago our local HS had a similar problem.  15 year tenured Coaches son was about to become a 3 year starter at SS, All-State in Sr. year on a team that won the State  finished top 30 nationally in a few polls. He also played DI baseball.  He was an outstanding player in every way. 

Sounds hard to beat but he was probably the 3rd best SS in the program as a Sr.  The sophomore playing JV got a DI scholarship before setting foot in a varsity game and transferred to another school.  The freshman SS behind him transferred to IMG and got a scholly to play at a SEC national powerhouse.  We were loaded - school had 15 players that eventually played DI between the JV and Varsity and another 6-8 that played in college.  

Despite the success of that individual team it would have been better for the program had he moved to 2nd base or CF since there was also a All State 2nd baseman there at the time.  

In the end everyone knew what the deal was and it wasn't changing.  So 2 very talented kids moved on.

Man, that's a lot of talent! How many went on to pro ball?

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

Dominik85 posted:

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

High school is more about how the player is swinging the bat than batting average. At mid season a 4-4 game against a weak pitching staff can impact a batting average 80 points. 

57special posted:

luv baseball posted:

About 10 years ago our local HS had a similar problem.  15 year tenured Coaches son was about to become a 3 year starter at SS, All-State in Sr. year on a team that won the State  finished top 30 nationally in a few polls. He also played DI baseball.  He was an outstanding player in every way. 

Sounds hard to beat but he was probably the 3rd best SS in the program as a Sr.  The sophomore playing JV got a DI scholarship before setting foot in a varsity game and transferred to another school.  The freshman SS behind him transferred to IMG and got a scholly to play at a SEC national powerhouse.  We were loaded - school had 15 players that eventually played DI between the JV and Varsity and another 6-8 that played in college.  

Despite the success of that individual team it would have been better for the program had he moved to 2nd base or CF since there was also a All State 2nd baseman there at the time.  

In the end everyone knew what the deal was and it wasn't changing.  So 2 very talented kids moved on.

Man, that's a lot of talent! How many went on to pro ball?

Only one that got anywhere - He pitched at an ACC school and is in AAA - he might be a tick short on the fastball to make it all the way.  These kids had great HS careers and about half had good college runs but only three at P5 schools and a couple got drafted.  They went to places like West Point and mid majors close to home.  We have two DI programs in town and about 7 of them ended up there. 

It was a lot of fun watching them play - quality baseball nearly every time they hit the field but we kind of knew most of them were topping out at 18 - they were a bunch of 6'0" 180lb kids that lived on baseball from age 5 and were very polished players pretty early for that time.  Now I suspect the gap our town had in youth baseball has closed - but I have lost contact with that.

RJM posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

High school is more about how the player is swinging the bat than batting average. At mid season a 4-4 game against a weak pitching staff can impact a batting average 80 points. 

I am going to guess this is one exception out of the norm, but I've seen a very good college baseball team play a relative almost every game carrying a .190 - .230 BA several years.  Parents complained among themselves, nobody spoke up.  It is what it is, accept and keep going forward.

Doesn't matter.   Hit! Hit! Hit!  He can play SS in club ball or showcases etc.  What you don't generally get to do elsewhere is prove your metal at the dish.   What's most important in HS IMHO is getting those ABs and proving that you can hit against Varsity competition, and do it well Vs players hat are being scouted for their pitching.  Learn as many positions as possible, and HIT!

At all levels above HS, players rise to the top because of what they can do with the bat.  THAT, is the hardest thing to do in baseball.   What they do everywhere else is a separator and that can be evaluated first hand.... Hitting is about where you've been an what you've proven.

RJM posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

High school is more about how the player is swinging the bat than batting average. At mid season a 4-4 game against a weak pitching staff can impact a batting average 80 points. 

I agree, over a sample of less than 50 ABs batting stats mean almost nothing, you see every spring training superstars batting 190 and bench players hitting 400.

In that sample it is more about whether you make contact and hit it reasonably hard

bandera posted:

Learn third.  It will help him in college if there's a better player already at SS when he gets there. Grow his skills.  

I assume your son plays SS on JV, shine there and change the V coaches mind with performance.  Make it so obvious that the coach cannot deny it. Get better.

Line-up and possition decisions are not something parents can control.   Don't waste time trying. 

Exactly. 

If you can play ss, you can play 3b.  

Like I said, I know SS can play 3B, there is still an adjustment period. Especially when a freshman is playing with older kids for the first time; balls are hit harder and you're a lot closer. He'll be fine but he's going to have to get it out of his system for now. Definitely will be playing more of it this summer. 

Not looking to be right here or make excuses for why he's not starting. Just wanted to see if any others parents had been in a similar situation or what other coaches would advise. 

They open up late next week. After about 3 weeks of scrimmaging the starting SS has half as many hits in double the ABs from what I'm told. So we'll see what happens if he continues his slow start. Going to sound selfish but I'm hoping he stinks it up. 

I know of a HS coach's son who was a "four year varsity letter winner" at SS.  HS Coach helped son make a D1 roster after JUCO and plenty of phone calls.  Kid made the team... got limited time... and did poorly.  Got cut before making the second year.

So what happened?  I thought the kid was a stud, I mean he was a four year varsity letter winner... right?

This happens all the time, and not just with coach's son (which is rare) but more often of a coach's favorite.  What makes a coach's favorite?  Let me spare you the BS you see across the web ("my favorites are the guys that hustle, work harder, perform better...").  That's CYA crap.  A favorite is sometimes the kid of the cute flirty single mom who's in charge of fundraising... or the kid that played on the coach's or assistant coach's club team or little league team (i.e. someone they invested in with time and training... like a surrogate son)... or the kid of the parent who donates a lot of money to the program... or is the kid of a colleague at work or a teacher at school.  I could go on.

That's wrong, but that's life.  As they say about life lessons being learned from baseball, that's one of them.  Life is unfair, full of corruption or personal dislikes protected by "discretion."  Yes, it's wrong, unfair, should not have anyplace in High School Baseball where opportunities to excel are coveted moments that should be earned, not given.

But what can one do about it?  NOTHING, at least directly with the HS coach.  Have your son continue to work on his measurables so he will shine at a showcase or in the opportunities he does get.  College coaches only care about what they see in front of them, and less about the padded stats of a High School coach's favorite.  I remember a recent conversation I had with OSU's new head coach, Pat Bailey, who said he has a great kid on his team who was cut by the high school coach and that HS coach's have weird and unknown reasons for decisions they make.

PABaseball posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Relax, at 14 he doesn't have to play varsity yet. Just continue to get better and in a year or so he will play whether at ss or somewhere else if he can hit.

I'm definitely relaxed, just posing a question to see if others have been in a similar situation as a coach or parent.

But I also don't subscribe to the wait your turn method. You're either better than the kid at your position or you're not. Kids don't think about leveling expectations, especially very competitive kids with goals bigger than making a team. They want to be around better players that elevate their game and they want to play in meaningful games. 

If you take the - he's only a freshman - approach, it becomes the - he's only a sophomore approach. He's also a wrestler. Had to wrestle off the other guy at his weight for a starting spot, so that is where I'm sure it becomes a frustrating. 

That is what I love about wrestling. If you are better than the starter and you have the guts to challenge him, then do it. Prove you belong through a wrestle off. You win Your varsity, you lose you either wrestle another weight or you wrestle JV. 

We talk about guys pushing each other in Baseball. In wrestling this is even more true. There is no waiting your turn. There is no eye test. The better wrestler wrestles. And the best wrestler is decided on the Mat.  

My youngest wrestled. I did not feel it was a very goods fit with baseball. He went to Districts every year and always showed up for baseball tryouts late. Fortunately the baseball coach was understanding. He was a catcher. And even though he was late to by days or weeks to tryouts, he was in better shape than any baseball player on the team. While all the other catchers were failing at wall squats, he could go all day. 

Do you mind me asking what weight class? 

Sorry for taking this in another direction. 

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

PABaseball posted:

I'm definitely relaxed, just posing a question to see if others have been in a similar situation as a coach or parent.

But I also don't subscribe to the wait your turn method. You're either better than the kid at your position or you're not. Kids don't think about leveling expectations, especially very competitive kids with goals bigger than making a team. They want to be around better players that elevate their game and they want to play in meaningful games. 

If you take the - he's only a freshman - approach, it becomes the - he's only a sophomore approach. He's also a wrestler. Had to wrestle off the other guy at his weight for a starting spot, so that is where I'm sure it becomes a frustrating. 

That is what I love about wrestling. If you are better than the starter and you have the guts to challenge him, then do it. Prove you belong through a wrestle off. You win Your varsity, you lose you either wrestle another weight or you wrestle JV. 

We talk about guys pushing each other in Baseball. In wrestling this is even more true. There is no waiting your turn. There is no eye test. The better wrestler wrestles. And the best wrestler is decided on the Mat.  

My youngest wrestled. I did not feel it was a very goods fit with baseball. He went to Districts every year and always showed up for baseball tryouts late. Fortunately the baseball coach was understanding. He was a catcher. And even though he was late to by days or weeks to tryouts, he was in better shape than any baseball player on the team. While all the other catchers were failing at wall squats, he could go all day. 

Do you mind me asking what weight class? 

Sorry for taking this in another direction. 

160. Although now that the season is over, that number is probably closer to 175. He's 5'11 so he looks like a stick compared to most of the 5'8 built kids he's going up against.

Wrestling is great, but not very good for baseball. The calorie deficit (even if not cutting) and the toll it takes on your body right before baseball season is tough. 2.5 hr practices everyday of nonstop sweating and movement aren't exactly ideal for growth. 

Still, if I could give any parent advice for a young kid I would say have them wrestle up until 8th grade and then see if they still want to pursue it from there. Bar far the most valuable and rewarding sport. When he was in 5th grade he placed 4th in the state but was on the B team. He lost a 4-3 wrestle off to his teammate and state champion at the same weight. That's the way it goes sometimes. Arguably the two best on the team and one wasn't starting. 

I still have a hard time believing there are many HS coaches out there who can afford to sit a true stud on the bench.

Even as a freshman, maybe you will sit for a guy that is 3 percent worse than you but if you are truely a stud you are going to play.

If you don't play the coach probably thinks you need another year of development before you are ready for the show.

Coach Cooper posted:

I know of a HS coach's son who was a "four year varsity letter winner" at SS.  HS Coach helped son make a D1 roster after JUCO and plenty of phone calls.  Kid made the team... got limited time... and did poorly.  Got cut before making the second year.

So what happened?  I thought the kid was a stud, I mean he was a four year varsity letter winner... right?

This happens all the time, and not just with coach's son (which is rare) but more often of a coach's favorite.  What makes a coach's favorite?  Let me spare you the BS you see across the web ("my favorites are the guys that hustle, work harder, perform better...").  That's CYA crap.  A favorite is sometimes the kid of the cute flirty single mom who's in charge of fundraising... or the kid that played on the coach's or assistant coach's club team or little league team (i.e. someone they invested in with time and training... like a surrogate son)... or the kid of the parent who donates a lot of money to the program... or is the kid of a colleague at work or a teacher at school.  I could go on.

That's wrong, but that's life.  As they say about life lessons being learned from baseball, that's one of them.  Life is unfair, full of corruption or personal dislikes protected by "discretion."  Yes, it's wrong, unfair, should not have anyplace in High School Baseball where opportunities to excel are coveted moments that should be earned, not given.

But what can one do about it?  NOTHING, at least directly with the HS coach.  Have your son continue to work on his measurables so he will shine at a showcase or in the opportunities he does get.  College coaches only care about what they see in front of them, and less about the padded stats of a High School coach's favorite.  I remember a recent conversation I had with OSU's new head coach, Pat Bailey, who said he has a great kid on his team who was cut by the high school coach and that HS coach's have weird and unknown reasons for decisions they make.

There is a lot of truth in this post!

Dominik85 posted:

I still have a hard time believing there are many HS coaches out there who can afford to sit a true stud on the bench.

Even as a freshman, maybe you will sit for a guy that is 3 percent worse than you but if you are truely a stud you are going to play.

If you don't play the coach probably thinks you need another year of development before you are ready for the show.

They won't sit a true stud player - they lose credibility with everyone and the thing unravels.  Almost every team I have ever seen has 13 or so position players that breakdown as 4/5 no doubt have to play.  2/3 total bench guys and 5/6 guys that are pick'em.

It is in the pick'em group where 5/6 players for 3 positions becomes a thing.  Middle infielders and CF are usually pretty identifiable as is the catcher.  The corners is where the position battles tend to be.  

If the coaches son is in this mix there is just no way you can expect him not to be partial.  He is putting time in and not for big $$$ so if he gets a "payoff" by putting his son Johnny in right who hits .250 over Sammy who might hit .290 or .300 ...that is life.

Fair?  Nope.  Anything going to change?  Unlikely.  Worth losing sleep over?  Only if son quits and starts doing counterproductive stuff with his new found free time.

I've posted this before, so...

Sooo... My kid was a really good SS, 3B and 1B... Until he got to HS...

In his Freshman year/Fall Varsity season, Coach mainly played him at SS & 3B in practice and every game, until the last game... He stuck him out in LF... He had never played an inning of outfield ever, so it was slightly concerning, since he also had never even practiced taking fly balls or anything... But he did well and even threw out a runner at home who was tagging up... He was told at the end of that game that he would be the starting LF'er for the Spring season, so start shagging balls to get ready... So over the Christmas break I got him a OF glove and I hit probably 1000 or more fly balls to him at the field... There was a senior playing 3B, so no problem,...

So, we start the season and 3 games in, Coach decides that he's changing the kid to 2B (so had to buy him another glove), but he's really never played there before and has not practiced at all, so he doesn't know all the nuances to the position... He played about a week there and then during a game where we were losing like 12-0, bases-loaded, he charged a slow-roller and the ball hopped up and hit the heel of his glove and everyone safe, next play Coach immediately moved him back to LF... (1-error in a week in a blowout, and he was gone... pretty harsh)...

Forgot to mention... this entire time PG has him ranked like in the top 5 Third-Basemen in the 2016 class for Florida...

So he played LF for the rest of the season, and got somewhat serviceable out there, learning on the fly...

Sophomore season, he's set to be the starting 3B, when we get a Senior transfer in and Coach see's that the kid cannot play LF, so he moves my kid back out to LF, and he plays there the entire year except for one game at 1B because of a suspension... Summer league team plays him in LF because the HS head coach tells the team to play him there...

Junior Fall season he plays the entire Fall at SS, because our Senior SS is the #1 ranked player in the nation and is taking the Fall off to weightlift and do workouts with MLB clubs... Kid does GREAT at SS and Coach tags him as the backup, and says he will be the starting 3B... We then get another Senior transfer who returned back to our school, and he out hits everyone (including the #3 overall pick in the 2016 MLB draft) and kicked my kid back out to LF... Summer league team plays him in LF because the HS head coach tells the team to play him there...

Kid commits to Oklahoma State as a 3B...

Senior season comes around and we have a new HC... He says my kid will be his starting 1B... I'm like, OK whatever... Even though he has literally played only 1 game at 1B in the last 4-years and is a D-1 commit, and is STILL ranked within the top-ten 3B in FL... Kid plays EVERY game at 1B for his Senior season...

At Oklahoma State during Fall games he mainly plays 3B, but the position is manned by All-Big-12 1st team Garrett Benge, who is not going anywhere and 1B is being manned by the Reigning Big-12 HR & RBI Champ... So he's also not going anywhere... Kid has a great Fall, but he's red-shirted...

He transferred to St. Petersburg State College, where he was the starting 3B...

So that's my story...

Bolts - what a journey.  Moving him around like a game of chess, for the benefit of the team.  Imagine in my son's case where in hs he was an infielder, D-1 puts him in the OF (last played OF as 12 year old), All-American all 3 years, now back in infield.  It should have made your son more versatile and playable wherever his journey takes him.  Trust in the process.....Sounds like he is well on his way, good luck

Bolts-Coach-PR posted:

I've posted this before, so...

Sooo... My kid was a really good SS, 3B and 1B... Until he got to HS...

In his Freshman year......................

Stories like this make me absolutely cringe...  I've had a similar experience with my son with slightly different nuances.

My son, who is pretty good and will play in college (and likely get some MLB scout looks), told me a few days ago.....  "man, just think how good I'd be if the coaches cared".  This was in reference to the overall program culture and not necessarily the new HC (who has yet to establish a culture of his own).  That said, this statement REALLY made me sad.  I literally had to casually turn away so as not to allow him to see the watery eyes.  Players look up to coaches, are loyal as a default (and at a fault) and just want, or need, some sort of acknowledgment from on high....

Transfer players seemed to play a prominent role in your story...  Same here.  Sadly, transfer rules are really designed to keep the honest players from chasing starting positions and varsity slots that they wouldn't otherwise have (because of favorites, daddy ball or just having to 'wait your turn').  Most of the time, transfers are regarded highly because, well, they transferred, they must be good (not necessarily true).   While honest players who dedicate themselves to a program or a coach (and not jump ship) are cast aside and not rewarded for the confidence they've placed in the coach or program.   If that player complains, or shows any frustration with the situation he's a "selfish player", "not dedicated to the program".... All the while, over the course of YEARS, that 'selfish player' has put faith in YOU, head coach, that you'd be fair and loyal to those LOYAL to and PATIENT with YOU. 

So Sad... It could just be my experience.  But I have to say that HS baseball isn't what it use to be.  Select baseball is far and away the best option for good coach/player relationships, sound teaching, talent recognition and, player promotion (for scouting).   If HS baseball doesn't wake up, it will soon be reduced to rec-league status, if it's not there already.

"and that's all I have to say about that" -- Forest Gump

Trust In Him posted:

Bolts - what a journey.  Moving him around like a game of chess, for the benefit of the team.  Imagine in my son's case where in hs he was an infielder, D-1 puts him in the OF (last played OF as 12 year old), All-American all 3 years, now back in infield.  It should have made your son more versatile and playable wherever his journey takes him.  Trust in the process.....Sounds like he is well on his way, good luck

I agree with you about the process and versatility.  However, I think coaches need to be more invested in those players like Bolt's son who have placed faith in that coach AND who are good at their primary position.  Moving a player because he honestly thinks that would make him a better more appealing player is one thing.   The biggest problem I have with Bolts' story goes back to the comment my son made to me (in my reply to Bolts).  How good would that player be had he been cultivated as a 3rd basemen or SS (with other positions sprinkled in)?  Bolts' story tells me that the coach neither prepared him nor promoted him for the recruiting process.  I could be wrong, only he could tell us, but I'm going to bet that the HC had very little to do with the offers received (aside from answering questions when asked).  I'd also bet that the travel ball coached and program had more to offer in this regard... Just my guesses... 

BobbyBaseball posted:

....  If HS baseball doesn't wake up, it will soon be reduced to rec-league status, if it's not there already.

In many parts of the country, it's already there.

BobbyBaseball posted:

Trust In Him posted:

Bolts - what a journey.  Moving him around like a game of chess, for the benefit of the team.  Imagine in my son's case where in hs he was an infielder, D-1 puts him in the OF (last played OF as 12 year old), All-American all 3 years, now back in infield.  It should have made your son more versatile and playable wherever his journey takes him.  Trust in the process.....Sounds like he is well on his way, good luck

I agree with you about the process and versatility.  However, I think coaches need to be more invested in those players like Bolt's son who have placed faith in that coach AND who are good at their primary position.  Moving a player because he honestly thinks that would make him a better more appealing player is one thing.   The biggest problem I have with Bolts' story goes back to the comment my son made to me (in my reply to Bolts).  How good would that player be had he been cultivated as a 3rd basemen or SS (with other positions sprinkled in)?  Bolts' story tells me that the coach neither prepared him nor promoted him for the recruiting process.  I could be wrong, only he could tell us, but I'm going to bet that the HC had very little to do with the offers received (aside from answering questions when asked).  I'd also bet that the travel ball coached and program had more to offer in this regard... Just my guesses... 

BOBBYBASEBALL - BINGO. 

So many weird and inexplicable things happen in HS ball.  My son is playing OF this HS season on games that he doesn't start pitching.  Has not played OF since like 12U I think?  He's made a couple of plays, but those tweeners between RF and CF have been tough on him - at least one has been an error, but I really can't blame him.  He had literally no practice time or any reps - just told to go out there lol.  He is playing RF with a pitcher's glove - I kid you not.  It's kind of turned into a little badge of honor for him I think .  We refuse to buy him a new OF glove for the 3 or 4 weeks left in the season!  He will have no further use for it in college - will be a PO.  I'm just resigned to it now.  Keep smiling and hope he enjoys his last year of school ball.

3and2Fastball posted:

BobbyBaseball posted:

....  If HS baseball doesn't wake up, it will soon be reduced to rec-league status, if it's not there already.

In many parts of the country, it's already there.

That is a fact!  I would say in MOST parts of the country it’s already there. 

Well guys, as far as it being "already there", The vast majority of HS age top college (and pro) prospects are still playing HS ball.  Also, on average, more and more HS baseball players are playing near year 'round, getting private instruction and doing strength training/speed& agility work.  Sure, you can still find plenty of bad HS baseball but the world is more visible now.  

As of this point in time, the best players still play HS ball and the good players are generally better and more developed than they ever have been.  Could it shift more toward a travel alternative during HS season in the future?  Sure.  Do we know that the current recruiting environment is based more on travel?  Sure.  But we are not "already there" and keep in mind that most baseball fields in existence today are school property.  

I'll make a post about my child.  As a freshman, she came in and was the top pitcher in the school.  Coach put her in RF as well.  As a sophomore, crazy coach looked at the team and said that she was the best SS in school so he put her at SS and pitched her.  As a junior, coach put her in CF and then, when 1B couldn't field a ball, moved her from CF to 1B and still had her in the circle.  Then, as a she was finally allowed to play CF which is where she was getting recruited.  Well, that isn't exactly true.  Some teams were recruiting her as a SS.  One was recruiting her as a 3B.  One or two wanted her in the circle pitching.  IOWs, it seemed as if every time we talked to a college coach, they all saw something different in what she brought to the table and all wanted her bat.  Maybe if that HS coach had allowed her to play one position in HS, she could have gotten even more offers.  That darn HS coach ruined her but I needed her to play where my team needed her.  

BobbyBaseball posted:

Trust In Him posted:

Bolts - what a journey.  Moving him around like a game of chess, for the benefit of the team.  Imagine in my son's case where in hs he was an infielder, D-1 puts him in the OF (last played OF as 12 year old), All-American all 3 years, now back in infield.  It should have made your son more versatile and playable wherever his journey takes him.  Trust in the process.....Sounds like he is well on his way, good luck

I agree with you about the process and versatility.  However, I think coaches need to be more invested in those players like Bolt's son who have placed faith in that coach AND who are good at their primary position.  Moving a player because he honestly thinks that would make him a better more appealing player is one thing.   The biggest problem I have with Bolts' story goes back to the comment my son made to me (in my reply to Bolts).  How good would that player be had he been cultivated as a 3rd basemen or SS (with other positions sprinkled in)?  Bolts' story tells me that the coach neither prepared him nor promoted him for the recruiting process.  I could be wrong, only he could tell us, but I'm going to bet that the HC had very little to do with the offers received (aside from answering questions when asked).  I'd also bet that the travel ball coached and program had more to offer in this regard... Just my guesses... 

HS baseball is neither a recruiting service nor a player development service, it is a competition sport. I mean bolt's son was shuffled around but still in the lineup every day. The coach probably felt he can shift him around because he can hit and handle the shuffling.

I don't see an issue with shiffling players around, this increasingly happens in mlb too since teams now don't want to waste bench spots on bats and  rather have extra relievers and for that you need versatile players.

Also I don't think hs ball will die. Hs season is short anyway and everyone plays travel ball the  rest of the season.

Imo most important for development is hitting, if you are an athlete and not afraid of the ball you can play defense. 

Dominik85 posted:

BobbyBaseball posted:

Trust In Him posted:

Bolts - what a journey.  Moving him around like a game of chess, for the benefit of the team.  Imagine in my son's case where in hs he was an infielder, D-1 puts him in the OF (last played OF as 12 year old), All-American all 3 years, now back in infield.  It should have made your son more versatile and playable wherever his journey takes him.  Trust in the process.....Sounds like he is well on his way, good luck

I agree with you about the process and versatility.  However, I think coaches need to be more invested in those players like Bolt's son who have placed faith in that coach AND who are good at their primary position.  Moving a player because he honestly thinks that would make him a better more appealing player is one thing.   The biggest problem I have with Bolts' story goes back to the comment my son made to me (in my reply to Bolts).  How good would that player be had he been cultivated as a 3rd basemen or SS (with other positions sprinkled in)?  Bolts' story tells me that the coach neither prepared him nor promoted him for the recruiting process.  I could be wrong, only he could tell us, but I'm going to bet that the HC had very little to do with the offers received (aside from answering questions when asked).  I'd also bet that the travel ball coached and program had more to offer in this regard... Just my guesses... 

HS baseball is neither a recruiting service nor a player development service, it is a competition sport. I mean bolt's son was shuffled around but still in the lineup every day. The coach probably felt he can shift him around because he can hit and handle the shuffling.

I don't see an issue with shiffling players around, this increasingly happens in mlb too since teams now don't want to waste bench spots on bats and  rather have extra relievers and for that you need versatile players.

Also I don't think hs ball will die. Hs season is short anyway and everyone plays travel ball the  rest of the season.

 

Imo most important for development is hitting, if you are an athlete and not afraid of the ball you can play defense. 

I don't completely disagree with you... But I'll address your reply point by point:

1. "HS baseball is neither a recruiting service nor a player development service"  -  Not entirely true.  Many coaches are ALWAYS talking about the next level.  Everyone on this board knows that, although not a recruiting or development service, HS Ball is very integral in both (or has been in the past).  AND when a HS coach is coordinating (I'd call it meddling) with club sports, as in Bolts story, then that HS coach is taking on the roll of development and recruitment coordination.  Why?  Because scouts come to see you play, if you say your a 3B, but they always see you in CF, then.... they either walk away or put an asterisk next to your name.  If you adjust and say "I also play CF..." then maybe they come to see that... if they come to see you play and your at 1B... well....

2. "Competition sport [only]" - Then why are scouts calling HS coaches, MLB scouts attending games and why are their rules around outside instruction during the season in most states?  This is also the crux of the downfall...  Kids are looking to be recruited, developed and 'seen' in their primary positions.  If HS Ball doesn't understand their roll in the process, then why bother playing HS Ball?   Of course there's the school spirit, friends etc. etc...   but that VERY serious athlete with an eye on a prize and a plan to get there... not worth it.... At least that's where I see it headed.  HS Ball will ever die... your right.  But it may be dead to the stars, it was dead to Bryce, and many other up and coming.

3.  "Probably felt he can handle..... the shuffling" - Maybe so, and if it's strictly a competition sport and not anything else, then sure, why not.

4.  MLB Shuffles - Nope.  Not true.  You may have utility players or mid infielders swapping.  Perhaps a left fielder will play one of the other out fields but rampant swapping, no way.   You can name a handful of players that have the versatility to move all over, but in general MLB players have their positions.   Minor leagues are even structured so that certain players get x number of reps at certain positions...why?  because it's important to learn THAT position and become proficient in the nuances that various situations present.

5. Most important thing is hitting. - Agreed...   HOWEVER, any player unsettled in his baseball world, frustrated, angry, confused or losing confidence... well...  there goes the hitting.   So now you've really messed them up.

I'm not saying this isn't a manageable thing or that all players will fail when they get moved around....  It often comes down to HOW it's handled.  If it's a MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY kind of coach who shows no interest in the players desires, recruitment, development etc. then meddles in their club team because he wants to win at the expense of his players future (yes future), then I'd recommend the really good player with a shot... stay away.    Result: Rec league

As an FYI, a HS coach runs his team and program as he sees fit and for the good of all and not each individual.  If you don't like it, take your son off of the team or quit b...g.  Bobbybaseball expects a HS coach to give in to the whims of 18-22 players who have their own selfish goals without regards to the team itself.  He must have had a HS coach piss in his cheerios.  

CoachB25 posted:

As an FYI, a HS coach runs his team and program as he sees fit and for the good of all and not each individual.  If you don't like it, take your son off of the team or quit b...g.  Bobbybaseball expects a HS coach to give in to the whims of 18-22 players who have their own selfish goals without regards to the team itself.  He must have had a HS coach piss in his cheerios.  

I never said HS Baseball is bad or that anyone pissed in my cheerios...  I am saying that a good coach would communicate with his players, explain his philosophy and, in the process, address the players concerns about being recruited.   If coach is worth a dime, he's take an active role in promoting players and REALLY developing them to be successful at their new position(s).   That good coach also might have an idea how to construct a lineup based on the talent he has...   The Shuffle coach is the guy that has no clue on how to do that... so he just throws mud at the wall and see what sticks... 

If you read the thread, you might have gleamed that there are certain HS coaches that don't care about their athletes and AREN"T doing those things.  HENCE, HS baseball is going to give way to Travel/Club ball (when it comes to recruiting, development and talent identification).   Why???  Because kids ARE quiting and taking their bats and gloves elsewhere...  So you kinda made my point with that comment.

BTW, seems to me that about 70% of the threads here evolve around advancing to next levels by way of recruiting, scouting etc.   Seems to be a legitimate concern that is successfully being addressed outside of HS baseball.  All I'm saying is, maybe HS Baseball needs to evolve to.... errr..... COMPETE?

 or.. accept rec league status...  

I'm not calling for it's demise, just casting a light on the warts that are going to cause it.

I would say that most HS coaches focus on team preparation and on trying to win, and do not focus on player recruiting, other than answering the phone when a college coach calls.  In fact, I'm not aware of a single HS coach who prioritizes player recruitment.  This may be a regional thing, but at least in Southern California I believe this to be the case.  I have found this to be a good thing, and I've seen my son grow to love the "team" and "trying to win" aspect of HS baseball, something that is largely missing from travel/showcase ball.

Smitty28 posted:

I would say that most HS coaches focus on team preparation and on trying to win, and do not focus on player recruiting, other than answering the phone when a college coach calls.  In fact, I'm not aware of a single HS coach who prioritizes player recruitment.  This may be a regional thing, but at least in Southern California I believe this to be the case.  I have found this to be a good thing, and I've seen my son grow to love the "team" and "trying to win" aspect of HS baseball, something that is largely missing from travel/showcase ball.

I agree with you totally... 

The warts I'm talking about are all easily taken care of with good coaching, communication, player buy-in and follow through on what gets the players to buy in....  It's an interpersonal thing.  Every player wants/needs to know that they are part of a plan and that there is a plan for them.   When all that is settled and the player TRUSTS the coach, we can get to winning and having a great time.

I hear all the time that HS baseball is not for recruiting and that is mostly true but also false.  I have seen 20 pro scouts at games this spring to watch players and we are not in a strong region for pro talents but there is my son and we have played a few teams that have similar talent.  Thursday game had 8 college scouts at it to watch various players.  These scouts were from D1 to NAIA and JUCO.  So HS games are still being scouted.  One kid made the jump from 82-83 this fall to 88 this game.  He moved from on no one's real radar to many teams interested and I think he will get an offer this week if he has not already. 

A good coach is supposed to help his players but that is up to him how to do that.  At the minimum answer the phone and talk to scouts.  At the most, call scouts on his behalf.   But they are not expected to play a kid where he wants to play.  they play kids where they are needed to help a team.

My son who is P5 LHP played SS and caught his freshman and sophomore year because that was where he was needed.  Only made 1 error in two years at SS and worked hard to figure out how to throw to first moving toward third.  He also caught some and only had 1 player steal a base on him.  Did not help his recruiting at all but helped the team win District and was rewarded with All-State both years.  You do what it takes to help the team.  If there is an interested coach who wants to see a player in a certain position and you can do that without hurting the team, you do it.  But only if it does not hurt the team.  But I also would not let my high school coach tell my son where he would play in the summer.  The two are two separate entities that have to work together.

Bobby, I misunderstood and apologize.  I do talk to my players but have been in on their recruitment since most were freshmen.  The problem with coaching a HS program is that you have to have the best mix on the field with players who play for multiple teams at a given position.  I gave the example of what I had to do with my daughter.  In the end, I could not be selfish and play her where she was getting recruited.  

I will add another comment that was made to me by a former player of mine who's team went to state.  In the stands it seems as if when he played that parents wore the school's colors/shirts/clothing.  Now, it seems as if they are wearing their TB clothing and according to him, it is like a game long bragging contest about what TB teams their child plays on, who is on that team from other schools, ...  Then, he mentioned that he found it odd that parents were constantly on their phones contacting parents from other schools letting everyone know about how their child has done in the game.  I had not noticed that but did this weekend when my team played.  Sure enough, and I am coaching softball now, every time a player did well, a phone came out from that parent.