Coach's Son

About 10 years ago our local HS had a similar problem.  15 year tenured Coaches son was about to become a 3 year starter at SS, All-State in Sr. year on a team that won the State  finished top 30 nationally in a few polls. He also played DI baseball.  He was an outstanding player in every way. 

Sounds hard to beat but he was probably the 3rd best SS in the program as a Sr.  The sophomore playing JV got a DI scholarship before setting foot in a varsity game and transferred to another school.  The freshman SS behind him transferred to IMG and got a scholly to play at a SEC national powerhouse.  We were loaded - school had 15 players that eventually played DI between the JV and Varsity and another 6-8 that played in college.  

Despite the success of that individual team it would have been better for the program had he moved to 2nd base or CF since there was also a All State 2nd baseman there at the time.  

In the end everyone knew what the deal was and it wasn't changing.  So 2 very talented kids moved on.

luv baseball posted:

About 10 years ago our local HS had a similar problem.  15 year tenured Coaches son was about to become a 3 year starter at SS, All-State in Sr. year on a team that won the State  finished top 30 nationally in a few polls. He also played DI baseball.  He was an outstanding player in every way. 

Sounds hard to beat but he was probably the 3rd best SS in the program as a Sr.  The sophomore playing JV got a DI scholarship before setting foot in a varsity game and transferred to another school.  The freshman SS behind him transferred to IMG and got a scholly to play at a SEC national powerhouse.  We were loaded - school had 15 players that eventually played DI between the JV and Varsity and another 6-8 that played in college.  

Despite the success of that individual team it would have been better for the program had he moved to 2nd base or CF since there was also a All State 2nd baseman there at the time.  

In the end everyone knew what the deal was and it wasn't changing.  So 2 very talented kids moved on.

Man, that's a lot of talent! How many went on to pro ball?

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

Dominik85 posted:

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

High school is more about how the player is swinging the bat than batting average. At mid season a 4-4 game against a weak pitching staff can impact a batting average 80 points. 

57special posted:

luv baseball posted:

About 10 years ago our local HS had a similar problem.  15 year tenured Coaches son was about to become a 3 year starter at SS, All-State in Sr. year on a team that won the State  finished top 30 nationally in a few polls. He also played DI baseball.  He was an outstanding player in every way. 

Sounds hard to beat but he was probably the 3rd best SS in the program as a Sr.  The sophomore playing JV got a DI scholarship before setting foot in a varsity game and transferred to another school.  The freshman SS behind him transferred to IMG and got a scholly to play at a SEC national powerhouse.  We were loaded - school had 15 players that eventually played DI between the JV and Varsity and another 6-8 that played in college.  

Despite the success of that individual team it would have been better for the program had he moved to 2nd base or CF since there was also a All State 2nd baseman there at the time.  

In the end everyone knew what the deal was and it wasn't changing.  So 2 very talented kids moved on.

Man, that's a lot of talent! How many went on to pro ball?

Only one that got anywhere - He pitched at an ACC school and is in AAA - he might be a tick short on the fastball to make it all the way.  These kids had great HS careers and about half had good college runs but only three at P5 schools and a couple got drafted.  They went to places like West Point and mid majors close to home.  We have two DI programs in town and about 7 of them ended up there. 

It was a lot of fun watching them play - quality baseball nearly every time they hit the field but we kind of knew most of them were topping out at 18 - they were a bunch of 6'0" 180lb kids that lived on baseball from age 5 and were very polished players pretty early for that time.  Now I suspect the gap our town had in youth baseball has closed - but I have lost contact with that.

RJM posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

High school is more about how the player is swinging the bat than batting average. At mid season a 4-4 game against a weak pitching staff can impact a batting average 80 points. 

I am going to guess this is one exception out of the norm, but I've seen a very good college baseball team play a relative almost every game carrying a .190 - .230 BA several years.  Parents complained among themselves, nobody spoke up.  It is what it is, accept and keep going forward.

Doesn't matter.   Hit! Hit! Hit!  He can play SS in club ball or showcases etc.  What you don't generally get to do elsewhere is prove your metal at the dish.   What's most important in HS IMHO is getting those ABs and proving that you can hit against Varsity competition, and do it well Vs players hat are being scouted for their pitching.  Learn as many positions as possible, and HIT!

At all levels above HS, players rise to the top because of what they can do with the bat.  THAT, is the hardest thing to do in baseball.   What they do everywhere else is a separator and that can be evaluated first hand.... Hitting is about where you've been an what you've proven.

RJM posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw the coach might give his son the starting job first but I don't think he will keep it if he doesn't perform. The coach doesn't want to sit him but he knows the conflict if he plays him despite hitting .220s.

There might be some coaches who will play him anyway but most coaches care about their Job and thus winning and also Team Chemistry.

High school is more about how the player is swinging the bat than batting average. At mid season a 4-4 game against a weak pitching staff can impact a batting average 80 points. 

I agree, over a sample of less than 50 ABs batting stats mean almost nothing, you see every spring training superstars batting 190 and bench players hitting 400.

In that sample it is more about whether you make contact and hit it reasonably hard

bandera posted:

Learn third.  It will help him in college if there's a better player already at SS when he gets there. Grow his skills.  

I assume your son plays SS on JV, shine there and change the V coaches mind with performance.  Make it so obvious that the coach cannot deny it. Get better.

Line-up and possition decisions are not something parents can control.   Don't waste time trying. 

Exactly. 

If you can play ss, you can play 3b.  

Like I said, I know SS can play 3B, there is still an adjustment period. Especially when a freshman is playing with older kids for the first time; balls are hit harder and you're a lot closer. He'll be fine but he's going to have to get it out of his system for now. Definitely will be playing more of it this summer. 

Not looking to be right here or make excuses for why he's not starting. Just wanted to see if any others parents had been in a similar situation or what other coaches would advise. 

They open up late next week. After about 3 weeks of scrimmaging the starting SS has half as many hits in double the ABs from what I'm told. So we'll see what happens if he continues his slow start. Going to sound selfish but I'm hoping he stinks it up. 

I know of a HS coach's son who was a "four year varsity letter winner" at SS.  HS Coach helped son make a D1 roster after JUCO and plenty of phone calls.  Kid made the team... got limited time... and did poorly.  Got cut before making the second year.

So what happened?  I thought the kid was a stud, I mean he was a four year varsity letter winner... right?

This happens all the time, and not just with coach's son (which is rare) but more often of a coach's favorite.  What makes a coach's favorite?  Let me spare you the BS you see across the web ("my favorites are the guys that hustle, work harder, perform better...").  That's CYA crap.  A favorite is sometimes the kid of the cute flirty single mom who's in charge of fundraising... or the kid that played on the coach's or assistant coach's club team or little league team (i.e. someone they invested in with time and training... like a surrogate son)... or the kid of the parent who donates a lot of money to the program... or is the kid of a colleague at work or a teacher at school.  I could go on.

That's wrong, but that's life.  As they say about life lessons being learned from baseball, that's one of them.  Life is unfair, full of corruption or personal dislikes protected by "discretion."  Yes, it's wrong, unfair, should not have anyplace in High School Baseball where opportunities to excel are coveted moments that should be earned, not given.

But what can one do about it?  NOTHING, at least directly with the HS coach.  Have your son continue to work on his measurables so he will shine at a showcase or in the opportunities he does get.  College coaches only care about what they see in front of them, and less about the padded stats of a High School coach's favorite.  I remember a recent conversation I had with OSU's new head coach, Pat Bailey, who said he has a great kid on his team who was cut by the high school coach and that HS coach's have weird and unknown reasons for decisions they make.

PABaseball posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Relax, at 14 he doesn't have to play varsity yet. Just continue to get better and in a year or so he will play whether at ss or somewhere else if he can hit.

I'm definitely relaxed, just posing a question to see if others have been in a similar situation as a coach or parent.

But I also don't subscribe to the wait your turn method. You're either better than the kid at your position or you're not. Kids don't think about leveling expectations, especially very competitive kids with goals bigger than making a team. They want to be around better players that elevate their game and they want to play in meaningful games. 

If you take the - he's only a freshman - approach, it becomes the - he's only a sophomore approach. He's also a wrestler. Had to wrestle off the other guy at his weight for a starting spot, so that is where I'm sure it becomes a frustrating. 

That is what I love about wrestling. If you are better than the starter and you have the guts to challenge him, then do it. Prove you belong through a wrestle off. You win Your varsity, you lose you either wrestle another weight or you wrestle JV. 

We talk about guys pushing each other in Baseball. In wrestling this is even more true. There is no waiting your turn. There is no eye test. The better wrestler wrestles. And the best wrestler is decided on the Mat.  

My youngest wrestled. I did not feel it was a very goods fit with baseball. He went to Districts every year and always showed up for baseball tryouts late. Fortunately the baseball coach was understanding. He was a catcher. And even though he was late to by days or weeks to tryouts, he was in better shape than any baseball player on the team. While all the other catchers were failing at wall squats, he could go all day. 

Do you mind me asking what weight class? 

Sorry for taking this in another direction. 

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

PABaseball posted:

I'm definitely relaxed, just posing a question to see if others have been in a similar situation as a coach or parent.

But I also don't subscribe to the wait your turn method. You're either better than the kid at your position or you're not. Kids don't think about leveling expectations, especially very competitive kids with goals bigger than making a team. They want to be around better players that elevate their game and they want to play in meaningful games. 

If you take the - he's only a freshman - approach, it becomes the - he's only a sophomore approach. He's also a wrestler. Had to wrestle off the other guy at his weight for a starting spot, so that is where I'm sure it becomes a frustrating. 

That is what I love about wrestling. If you are better than the starter and you have the guts to challenge him, then do it. Prove you belong through a wrestle off. You win Your varsity, you lose you either wrestle another weight or you wrestle JV. 

We talk about guys pushing each other in Baseball. In wrestling this is even more true. There is no waiting your turn. There is no eye test. The better wrestler wrestles. And the best wrestler is decided on the Mat.  

My youngest wrestled. I did not feel it was a very goods fit with baseball. He went to Districts every year and always showed up for baseball tryouts late. Fortunately the baseball coach was understanding. He was a catcher. And even though he was late to by days or weeks to tryouts, he was in better shape than any baseball player on the team. While all the other catchers were failing at wall squats, he could go all day. 

Do you mind me asking what weight class? 

Sorry for taking this in another direction. 

160. Although now that the season is over, that number is probably closer to 175. He's 5'11 so he looks like a stick compared to most of the 5'8 built kids he's going up against.

Wrestling is great, but not very good for baseball. The calorie deficit (even if not cutting) and the toll it takes on your body right before baseball season is tough. 2.5 hr practices everyday of nonstop sweating and movement aren't exactly ideal for growth. 

Still, if I could give any parent advice for a young kid I would say have them wrestle up until 8th grade and then see if they still want to pursue it from there. Bar far the most valuable and rewarding sport. When he was in 5th grade he placed 4th in the state but was on the B team. He lost a 4-3 wrestle off to his teammate and state champion at the same weight. That's the way it goes sometimes. Arguably the two best on the team and one wasn't starting. 

I still have a hard time believing there are many HS coaches out there who can afford to sit a true stud on the bench.

Even as a freshman, maybe you will sit for a guy that is 3 percent worse than you but if you are truely a stud you are going to play.

If you don't play the coach probably thinks you need another year of development before you are ready for the show.

Coach Cooper posted:

I know of a HS coach's son who was a "four year varsity letter winner" at SS.  HS Coach helped son make a D1 roster after JUCO and plenty of phone calls.  Kid made the team... got limited time... and did poorly.  Got cut before making the second year.

So what happened?  I thought the kid was a stud, I mean he was a four year varsity letter winner... right?

This happens all the time, and not just with coach's son (which is rare) but more often of a coach's favorite.  What makes a coach's favorite?  Let me spare you the BS you see across the web ("my favorites are the guys that hustle, work harder, perform better...").  That's CYA crap.  A favorite is sometimes the kid of the cute flirty single mom who's in charge of fundraising... or the kid that played on the coach's or assistant coach's club team or little league team (i.e. someone they invested in with time and training... like a surrogate son)... or the kid of the parent who donates a lot of money to the program... or is the kid of a colleague at work or a teacher at school.  I could go on.

That's wrong, but that's life.  As they say about life lessons being learned from baseball, that's one of them.  Life is unfair, full of corruption or personal dislikes protected by "discretion."  Yes, it's wrong, unfair, should not have anyplace in High School Baseball where opportunities to excel are coveted moments that should be earned, not given.

But what can one do about it?  NOTHING, at least directly with the HS coach.  Have your son continue to work on his measurables so he will shine at a showcase or in the opportunities he does get.  College coaches only care about what they see in front of them, and less about the padded stats of a High School coach's favorite.  I remember a recent conversation I had with OSU's new head coach, Pat Bailey, who said he has a great kid on his team who was cut by the high school coach and that HS coach's have weird and unknown reasons for decisions they make.

There is a lot of truth in this post!

Dominik85 posted:

I still have a hard time believing there are many HS coaches out there who can afford to sit a true stud on the bench.

Even as a freshman, maybe you will sit for a guy that is 3 percent worse than you but if you are truely a stud you are going to play.

If you don't play the coach probably thinks you need another year of development before you are ready for the show.

They won't sit a true stud player - they lose credibility with everyone and the thing unravels.  Almost every team I have ever seen has 13 or so position players that breakdown as 4/5 no doubt have to play.  2/3 total bench guys and 5/6 guys that are pick'em.

It is in the pick'em group where 5/6 players for 3 positions becomes a thing.  Middle infielders and CF are usually pretty identifiable as is the catcher.  The corners is where the position battles tend to be.  

If the coaches son is in this mix there is just no way you can expect him not to be partial.  He is putting time in and not for big $$$ so if he gets a "payoff" by putting his son Johnny in right who hits .250 over Sammy who might hit .290 or .300 ...that is life.

Fair?  Nope.  Anything going to change?  Unlikely.  Worth losing sleep over?  Only if son quits and starts doing counterproductive stuff with his new found free time.

I've posted this before, so...

Sooo... My kid was a really good SS, 3B and 1B... Until he got to HS...

In his Freshman year/Fall Varsity season, Coach mainly played him at SS & 3B in practice and every game, until the last game... He stuck him out in LF... He had never played an inning of outfield ever, so it was slightly concerning, since he also had never even practiced taking fly balls or anything... But he did well and even threw out a runner at home who was tagging up... He was told at the end of that game that he would be the starting LF'er for the Spring season, so start shagging balls to get ready... So over the Christmas break I got him a OF glove and I hit probably 1000 or more fly balls to him at the field... There was a senior playing 3B, so no problem,...

So, we start the season and 3 games in, Coach decides that he's changing the kid to 2B (so had to buy him another glove), but he's really never played there before and has not practiced at all, so he doesn't know all the nuances to the position... He played about a week there and then during a game where we were losing like 12-0, bases-loaded, he charged a slow-roller and the ball hopped up and hit the heel of his glove and everyone safe, next play Coach immediately moved him back to LF... (1-error in a week in a blowout, and he was gone... pretty harsh)...

Forgot to mention... this entire time PG has him ranked like in the top 5 Third-Basemen in the 2016 class for Florida...

So he played LF for the rest of the season, and got somewhat serviceable out there, learning on the fly...

Sophomore season, he's set to be the starting 3B, when we get a Senior transfer in and Coach see's that the kid cannot play LF, so he moves my kid back out to LF, and he plays there the entire year except for one game at 1B because of a suspension... Summer league team plays him in LF because the HS head coach tells the team to play him there...

Junior Fall season he plays the entire Fall at SS, because our Senior SS is the #1 ranked player in the nation and is taking the Fall off to weightlift and do workouts with MLB clubs... Kid does GREAT at SS and Coach tags him as the backup, and says he will be the starting 3B... We then get another Senior transfer who returned back to our school, and he out hits everyone (including the #3 overall pick in the 2016 MLB draft) and kicked my kid back out to LF... Summer league team plays him in LF because the HS head coach tells the team to play him there...

Kid commits to Oklahoma State as a 3B...

Senior season comes around and we have a new HC... He says my kid will be his starting 1B... I'm like, OK whatever... Even though he has literally played only 1 game at 1B in the last 4-years and is a D-1 commit, and is STILL ranked within the top-ten 3B in FL... Kid plays EVERY game at 1B for his Senior season...

At Oklahoma State during Fall games he mainly plays 3B, but the position is manned by All-Big-12 1st team Garrett Benge, who is not going anywhere and 1B is being manned by the Reigning Big-12 HR & RBI Champ... So he's also not going anywhere... Kid has a great Fall, but he's red-shirted...

He transferred to St. Petersburg State College, where he was the starting 3B...

So that's my story...

Bolts - what a journey.  Moving him around like a game of chess, for the benefit of the team.  Imagine in my son's case where in hs he was an infielder, D-1 puts him in the OF (last played OF as 12 year old), All-American all 3 years, now back in infield.  It should have made your son more versatile and playable wherever his journey takes him.  Trust in the process.....Sounds like he is well on his way, good luck

Bolts-Coach-PR posted:

I've posted this before, so...

Sooo... My kid was a really good SS, 3B and 1B... Until he got to HS...

In his Freshman year......................

Stories like this make me absolutely cringe...  I've had a similar experience with my son with slightly different nuances.

My son, who is pretty good and will play in college (and likely get some MLB scout looks), told me a few days ago.....  "man, just think how good I'd be if the coaches cared".  This was in reference to the overall program culture and not necessarily the new HC (who has yet to establish a culture of his own).  That said, this statement REALLY made me sad.  I literally had to casually turn away so as not to allow him to see the watery eyes.  Players look up to coaches, are loyal as a default (and at a fault) and just want, or need, some sort of acknowledgment from on high....

Transfer players seemed to play a prominent role in your story...  Same here.  Sadly, transfer rules are really designed to keep the honest players from chasing starting positions and varsity slots that they wouldn't otherwise have (because of favorites, daddy ball or just having to 'wait your turn').  Most of the time, transfers are regarded highly because, well, they transferred, they must be good (not necessarily true).   While honest players who dedicate themselves to a program or a coach (and not jump ship) are cast aside and not rewarded for the confidence they've placed in the coach or program.   If that player complains, or shows any frustration with the situation he's a "selfish player", "not dedicated to the program".... All the while, over the course of YEARS, that 'selfish player' has put faith in YOU, head coach, that you'd be fair and loyal to those LOYAL to and PATIENT with YOU. 

So Sad... It could just be my experience.  But I have to say that HS baseball isn't what it use to be.  Select baseball is far and away the best option for good coach/player relationships, sound teaching, talent recognition and, player promotion (for scouting).   If HS baseball doesn't wake up, it will soon be reduced to rec-league status, if it's not there already.

"and that's all I have to say about that" -- Forest Gump