Coaches control over team

To my knowledge, the make up of a coaches team is at his discretion. The IHSA has many other things to screw up other than how to remove a kid from a team.
I've only seen one instance where a school has a say on who's on the team and that was a girls basketball out in San Francisco.
It's a sad state of affairs when a parent can just threaten to sue and have the school district bend to their will.

mr. diggle

Right on Diggle!

Daddy ball in Illinois high school baseball… what’s next?

quote:

Originally posted by Ben_Diggle:
It's a sad state of affairs when a parent can just threaten to sue and have the school district bend to their will.

Although I agree %100 with that statement, I don't know that's what happened here. There may have been many more issues in play that we are unaware of. Just being a HS coach doesn't make someone a good person or capable of doing the right things.

im sure the coach got the job without an interview, or anyone checking references, or must of had several issues.........

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo Master:
im sure the coach got the job without an interview, or anyone checking references, or must of had several issues.........

That's not the point, the point is that we have no idea if there was any prior history of deterimental conduct that could have weighed heavily on the situation. To assume two things,

1. Being that the threat of parental lawsuit was even present (it appears to be rumor to this point),

2. and if that solely brought enough pressure to bear to force an AD's decision

Seems as though some of us are pretty quick to judgement on this when the facts aren't in evidence.

And to assume a coach is incapable of detrimental behavior, on or off the field is unadulterated ignorance. Wayne Kuklinski is out on bail for soliciting *** from a 15 year old and possession of child pornography, in spite of an interview, checking references, and 30 years of coaching experience.

Rest assured if I say a kid is off the team, he is off the team.

cplz I do understand your point regarding some "off" the field issues but again that is in the minority. The majority of the time it all centers (starts) around playing time. plain and simple. believe me ive seen it with raising three very team active kids.

WIth regard to CPLZ's point: I totally agree and was surprised to see people high fiving and symbolically clapping at some of the comments...Comments based on zero factual information. I've seen to many egotistical, agenda driven, psycho loser sports coaches in my life to EVER make a blanket statement like some of you guys have made. Daddy ball, lawsuits. Yeah, I agree things are a bit out of control with regard to politically correct assignations of players to teams and other variations on the PC themes.

Guys, there are plenty of coaches out there who lack the neccesary skill sets...technically, emotionally, mentally (add other descriptive points here). You can never assume it was daddy ball, litigation ball or grandma ball without knowing ANYTHING about the elements that created the mystery situation that this thread is about. I think, because of the PC thing, that our institutions have gotten better at weeding out the bad coaches..but, they are still out there.
you can say "most of the time it is this or that" However, those generalizations are dangerous and you have to keep an unbiased eye on these things.

Regardless of what state he is in,if a coach cannot select his players and run the team as he desires why do you need the coach ?---let the parents run the team and then see what happens

Coach B, not all coaches can exert that type of authority or be so confident to state that. Coach at a private school and see if the big donors don't wield as much power or more than the coaches.
Johnny gets caught breaking some honor code, Johnny's dad is an alum and big donor, coach wants Johnny off team, AD calls a meeting, we all know the outcome. Coach B do you think you could coach at a private institution where that comes into play?

Question, I know HS teams can condition before tryouts can coaches also have the kids swinging and throwing, doing baseball specific drills before the February tryouts and official start of the Varsity season?
Football seems to be much stricter, with coaches not being allowed to conduct specific drills until the start of the season.

quote:

I've seen to many egotistical, agenda driven, psycho loser sports coaches in my life to EVER make a blanket statement like some of you guys have made.

Coho, The devil is in the details. Who is high fiving who here?

Any Coach who expects success has to run his own ship the way he wants to. The Head Coach must have authority to control who is on his team and who plays. It should be part of the job description and when you hire someone, you should have the faith in him that he will do the right thing. If you don't have that faith then don't give him the job.

Ibach, Football is far less strict than baseball. Between summer camp, 7 on 7 Leagues and pre-season practice those coaches have far more time with their players. In baseball I don't think a coach is allowed to work with more than 2 players at a time. Everything else has to be "open gym" stuff without the coaches being present.

Do I think I could coach at a private school and have this much influence? Never thought of it. I know I wouldn't change. If that meant I'd be gone, then so be it. When coaches make decisions such as throwing a player off of the team, typically it isn't a spur of the moment decision. Most of the coaches I know are in this for the kids first. However, when the team's success/cohesiveness... is threatened, then coaches make decisions based on the whole and not one player. BTW, if I ever come to believe that I'm the problem, then I'll be gone.

quote:

Originally posted by FastballDad:
Any Coach who expects success has to run his own ship the way he wants to. The Head Coach must have authority to control who is on his team and who plays. It should be part of the job description and when you hire someone, you should have the faith in him that he will do the right thing. If you don't have that faith then don't give him the job.

FBD,
Who wouldn't concur with that? The next step in the process is evaluation of results. Not only W's and L's but the whole litany of what disseminates a good coach from a mediocre one to a poor one (Ibach, insert 6 page redundant dialouge here).

To assume that coaches represent a different cross section of society than society at large is false. We should expect as much good and bad from them as we see in life in general.

I've seen coaches that make tremendous positive impacts on kids. I've seen administrations toss aside long time good coaches because they don't represent todays politically correct atmosphere. I've seen horrible coaches where players lack respect for them and have a myriad of character defects that manifest themselves in their coaching, yet administrations turn blind eyes to them and they continue to coach impacting young people negatively.

If a coach is doing something that is wrong, I see no problem with parents bringing that to the forefront with AD's or Administrators (and as Fungo stated, the issue should not revolve around playing time). Let's not be so quick to label all parental concerns as "Daddy Ball" or usurping a coaches authority. Although a coach should be allowed latitude in his realm, it should not be without oversight or accountability.

Coach, The only problem with the rest assured statement is as I see it, what do you do when you are one year away from tenure, you are faced with a situation that conflicts with your values. I think we would all like to say we would do the right thing, as you put it "rest assured you would be gone". Would that decision impact your ability to pay your mortgage, pay for your kids college tuition? Would this impact your spouse?

quote:

Originally posted by Ibach:

Coho, The devil is in the details. Who is high fiving who here?

Ibach, please clarify your remark and I'll be happy to respond...you might be slightly cryptic here, I don't knw.

If you are asking a literal question then please refer to the beginning of this thread.

IBACK/Kevin

Time for your meds isnt it---

quote:

In baseball I don't think a coach is allowed to work with more than 2 players at a time. Everything else has to be "open gym" stuff without the coaches being present.

Fastball, that is interesting. Are you sure about that...I know of high school teams that are not only conditioning but throwing and swinging with varsity coaches present. I bet I'm not the only one here that knows this.

Wow. I never expected the thread to go this way. I just asked a gerneral question. You guys really made it interesting.
The actual case: The head coach has been there 10 years, is highly thought of as a person. The player, who was the top player on the team, and a senior, now sits on the end of the bench and does not play. The team has asked her to quit, but she refuses. The team always wears the coaches name somewhere, as a protest (ie. his name written on socks, or initials in wrist bans). The father appears to be behind it, and the uncle is a lawyer.
While the facts may support some of the opinions expressed herre, the opinions were based on no information, and I think that makes the discussion interesting, and shows that people do come in to these discussions with a slant, if not an outright agenda. I feel based on what I have learned form you, that this is simply a matter of the district not wanting the expense of defending a suit, and the statement that there are IHSA procedures was a cover story.
Thank you again for you insight.

BBallDad, I agree, it's great to hear different opinions and learn something new.
Does anyone have a link to the IHSA rules, I am interested in looking at that.

quote:

he father appears to be behind it, and the uncle is a lawyer.

hmmmmmmmmmmm

"He" father behind what?

sorry i didnt copy the "t" before the "he"

lsc59 is correct in his assertion that open gym coaches can be present. However, they can't take roll, can't coach, can't even circumvent the purpose of open gym by posting a plan and then walking away. While lsc59 might be correct in that these rules are often violated, I can think of a few programs that do it legally. We use that time for plyometric and weights. We find that the added benefits of this strength training shows dividends later. WE don't have an open gym that is specifically baseball. In fact even in our weights and plyo workouts, members of the girl's s****r and track teams attend. I've stated this before, if you're breaking the rules, according to the Illinois High School Principal's Association report, 92% of all high schools get turned in for rules violations by disgruntled parents within their own district. I'd keep that in mind if I were a coach breaking the rules.

Disclosing that the player in question is a girl doesn’t change my opinion given the original facts. If the coach; 1) doesn't like the way the kid (girl) practices, 2) the kid (girl) is disruptive, and 3) the kid (girl) just doesn't listen to the coach… why can’t the coach take appropriate measures. Are there 2 sets of rules, one for girls and one for boys? Now that’s discrimination. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is still daddy ball in HS baseball and the effects on a team are the same… destructive, negative, and ruins the esprit de corps. I commend the coach for kicking off the team’s “top player” because of attitude. It’s too bad the spineless AD did not support his 10 year highly thought of head coach. It sends the wrong message.

bballdad1954’s original post does not state that the coach did anything illegal, immoral, or that he broke any of the schools policies or procedures. It does suggest, as per the AD, that the coach did not follow IHSA procedures for kicking an individual off of a HS team.

bballdad1954 asks; “Can a coach in any sport in Illinois kick a kid off the team? Is the AD correct about IHSA having hoops to jump through?”

BenD is of the opinion that HS team rosters are “at will” or at the discretion of the coach, regardless of gender. I was under the same impression. If that is wrong what is correct? I searched the IHSA website looking for an “official” procedure that must be followed but could not find anything definitive other than a statement that says an individual who misbehaves during sport participation may be “banned by the Board of Directors”. Does this mean that once an athlete (regardless of gender) is considered part of an Illinois HS team, i.e. participating in a team organized activity, team practice (not tryouts), the individual can not be removes without an IHSA BOD meeting? I could not find any “IHSA procedures for kicking a kid off the team”. The IHSA 2006-07 Handbook link is below. Maybe someone else will have better luck finding it. It would be interesting to get some official procedure or an Illinois HS coach’s opinion or experience.

http://www.ihsa.org/org/policy/index.htm#By-Laws

I remember the post and article Ben_Diggle references regarding the SF girl’s basketball team. Pathetic! Daddy ball on steroids and with a bank account!

Do coaches put up with this destructive behavior at the next level?

Good luck to this team. I hope that they can rise above this and have a successful season despite the distractions.

Bears 16 Saints 7 at the half…. GO BEARS!

smoke, remember a young basketball coach at the university of north carolina, daugherty, the parents worked their magic at that level as well. it had nothing to do with the alumni.

quote:

However, they can't take roll, can't coach, can't even circumvent the purpose of open gym by posting a plan and then walking away.

Coach, The IHSA should do a better job of policing the policy. Does the IHSA have the ability to investigate allegations of this nature? Is it more of an honor system? Would an 800 system work perhaps?
It worked in the city of Chicago when former Federal Prosecutor David Hoffman took over as Inspector General. David implemented a tip line
...bye bye corruption.

Coach can you please PM the name of a contact on the IHSA rules committee I would love to sit down and interview them for a story on this.

Quote "I've stated this before, if you're breaking the rules, according to the Illinois High School Principal's Association report, 92% of all high schools get turned in for rules violations by disgruntled parents within their own district. I'd keep that in mind if I were a coach breaking the rules.

Coach, with all due respect, if a high school coach is breaking any rule they shouldn't be coaching kids.. period. A warning about sneaky parents seems inappropriate.
Parents, disgruntled or not, should be applauded for reporting incidents involving rules infractions. What type of message does that send to the kids? The recommendation from a former rules committee member should be who is doing it (breaking rules) and how can we stop it JMHO No hijack here, just some tough questions that need answers.

What? Where in the world did I say that these parents were either wrong or "sneaky?" Where did I insinuate it? My warning was simply that and in no way is representative of condemation of those parents or justification for coaches that bend the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Smokey:
If the coach; 1) doesn't like the way the kid (girl) practices, 2) the kid (girl) is disruptive, and 3) the kid (girl) just doesn't listen to the coach… why can’t the coach take appropriate measures.

Is this in fact the case? In BBalldads original post, he used words like "or", not "is".

Sports at the HS level and above are supposed to be mercenary. The best players play. Doesn't always work that way, that's how we come up with terms like daddy ball. It happens at the HS level also.

Even in the mercenary system, there is player accountability along with coach accountability. That's why AD's are supposed to be in place and administrators that monitor the AD's.

If in fact this whole situation is one of a bad attiuded player vs. a highly ethical coach that is trying to maintain team morale, and the AD is a jellyfish, well, the administration should be stepping in.

Somehow though, with all those people in place, I find it more likely that there is more in play here than we've been enlightened with. There would have to be too many spineless administrators to allow this to go through against a star player. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it doesn't seem as crystal clear as it may be percieved here.

I could be way wrong, but something here just doesn't fit. It seems like part of the story is missing.

coach that's my perception of your post.
What and who was your warning for?

Shouldn't it be for the condemnation of rule breakers. The other problem is the "We all know they do it position" That's just wrong. If people are aware of coaches conducting illegal practices they should do something about it.

Quote " My warning was simply that and in no way is representative of condemation of those parents or justification for coaches that bend the rules
Quote "I've stated this before, if you're breaking the rules, according to the Illinois High School Principal's Association report, 92% of all high schools get turned in for rules violations by disgruntled parents within their own district. I'd keep that in mind if I were a coach breaking the rules

Isc59, OK, High School Coaches shouldn't bend or break rules ever. Yeah I know, everyone does it, everyone knows about..Well you know what, that doesn't make it right. Apparently a few in our area have been conducting workouts that have a lot more to do with throwing and swinging than lifting weights and running. We are not talking open gym.

Ibach, what do you know about the rules for high school baseball. Do you know what an open gym consists of. Do you understand what is allowed under the rules? Stick to what you know, whatever that is.

Ballfan, That is exactly what I want..To know what the rules are? Isn't that what this board is all about. Exchanging information, spirited debate?
learning something new.

Do you know the rules about conducting baseball specific workouts & drills before the official start of the season or tryouts? Please advise.

quote:

Open gym" time is allowed under IHSA rules. Coaches can be present but cannot coach. (and of course that does'nt happen) Seniors typical "run" the practice. My son has been throwing since the Tuesday after Thanksgiving twice a week

Of course that doesn't happen. Does your son throw with the coach present and under his guidance? Of course not...That wouldn't make sense?
Is the "open" gym filled with other kids that don't play baseball? Is the "open" gym a mandatory baseball practice or is it optional? Didn't think so.

CPLZ, Since you quoted my post I feel compelled to respond.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

quote:

Originally posted by Smokey:
If the coach; 1) doesn't like the way the kid (girl) practices, 2) the kid (girl) is disruptive, and 3) the kid (girl) just doesn't listen to the coach… why can’t the coach take appropriate measures.

Is this in fact the case? In BBalldads original post, he used words like "or", not "is".

I will just have to agree to disagree with you. I don’t know where you’re going with this? It just is what it is.

"Is this in fact the case?"

Yes, given bballdad1954’s original post that started this discussion. Word for word this is the original post… and I quote bballdad1954 origional post…

“This is not a baseball specific question, but I could not find it in the IHSA bylaws. Can a coach in any sport in Illinois kick a kid off the team? I am talking about after the kid made the team in try outs. The coach just doesn't like the way the kid practices, or the kid is disruptive, or just doesn't listen to the coach.
There is a situation I am aware of where the coach kicked the kid off of the team, and the AD put the kid back on the team saying the IHSA has procedures for kicking a kid off the team. The coach then took a leave of absense, and the kid remains on the team.
Is the AD correct about IHSA having hoops to jump through.
I think the parents may have threatened a suit.”

Take your pick reason 1, 2, 3, all 3, or any combination. It doesn’t make a difference.

If the coach doesn’t like the way a ball player practices… he should have the discretion to kick that ball player from the team.
If the ball player is disruptive… the coach should have the discretion to kick said ball player off the squad.
If the ball player doesn’t listen… the coach should have the authority to boot the player.

Playing a HS sport, including baseball, is a privilege not a right. Break the rules… and you don’t get the privilege… the IHSA’s, the school’s, the coach’s, or the team’s.

"In bballdads original post, he used words like "or", not "is"."

I don’t understand where you’re going with that statement…

Is there more to this situation… you bet? Based on bballdad1954’s 2 posts here is how I add it up;
The head baseball coach of an Illinois HS, who “has been there 10 years”, and “is highly thought of as a person”, kicks a senior baseball player off the team for reason 1,2,3, or any combination of these 3 reasons. This senior is a girl “who was the top player on the team”. IMHO it took a lot of guts by the head coach to do this. IMHO I think there is more to it and he knew he would take some heat for his decision. He does it anyway… because there is more to it! IMHO this coach did it for the good of his team or why would he remove “the top player”. The removed player doesn’t like it, her daddy doesn’t like it and they take it up with the AD. AD at first supports the coach who “has been there 10 years”, and “is highly thought of as a person”. Daddy threatens a lawsuit if daddy’s ball player is not reinstated on the team. AD capitulates and gives the coach an ultimatum or else. “The coach then took a leave of absence, and the kid remains on the team” (quote from original post). Coach comes back for the good of the team… no wait scratch that… he comes back for the additional pay. AD uses some IHSA procedure, real or not, to save face and hide behind, “saying the IHSA has procedures for kicking a kid off the team” (quote from original post). The player in question rides the pine and continues to erode the esprit de corps and moral of the team. “The team has asked her to quit, but she refuses” (quote from second post). Why… because this player can’t back down now and have daddy, et all, lose face. One player wins… one team loses… pretty sad. Daddy ball at work in HS baseball. If there is more to this story than the above… fire the coach… call the authorities… suit and prosecute all responsible parties to the full extent of the law… TAKE NO PRISONERS! If it’s daddy ball and politics… STOP THE MADNESS!

Again this is my opinion and I am not trying to belabor the point. I agree to disagree.

HOW ABOUT DA BEARS! YA GOTTA LOVE LOVIE!

Ibach, If a program has an open gym period where they are playing catch does that mean it is a structured practice? Is it the responsibility of the coach to make sure that there are kids who attend the open gym who don't play baseball? The responsibilty of the coach is to make sure the open gym is available to all students. We start our plyo workouts tomorrow night and will continue to do so for the next 5 weeks. We will also be in the pool in the mornings working out. We opened this up to the whole student body and you would be amazed at how many kids take advantage of the workout that don't play baseball. The only restriction I have is that there can be no sport specific activities during these workouts.

Ballfan that's great! It's nice to hear that you adhere to the IHSA guidlines. It is apparent that not all coaches are following the same protocol.
What do you, as a coach, think should be done about this? I have several emails that describe clear violations. Baseball team alone in gym with coach doing baseball specific drills under the direct supervision of the coach, not Seniors.
Do you have an opinion on this?

So just to be clear a high school coach who recently ran a practice in a gym that involved only the baseball team, doing technique drills to include throwing and hitting drills, would in fact be in violation of IHSA guidelines? Do I have this correct?