Coaching philosophy on discipline?

Wouldn't it depend on the nature of the infraction? Personal or team? In college it important to have the players come together as a unit.

Chill,
I think there are many coaches that “punish” the team if an individual is guilty of a minor infraction, usually baseball related or a team rule. I look at this type of “punishment” as more of a motivational tool or a conditioning exercise. I know of one coach that punishes the whole team, except the guilty party. He is seated in a chair watching the “punishment”…usually laps or poles. On the other hand more severe infractions are dealt with individually….failing grades or missing practice etc.

This is a good question. On my son's high school team, it depends on the problem. Sometimes it's individual, sometimes a team. Although they're all very good boys . I will tell you when we had a player get in trouble last year and he had additional running, many of his team mates ran with him. The boys felt they wanted to show the player they supported him even if he did something wrong. They didn't want him to feel like they had given up on him. I'll say, this was one of the tighest group of kids you'll ever see. So I think it depends on the team/player and it's a coaches call.

Chill
Jr's coach functions exactly as Fungo describes.
Don't get me started on the high school coach, who was inconsistant bordering on irrational.

Chill,
Not sure yet on college, though I know if it is school related (missing class, study hall, etc) it is treated individually. Will have a better answer in the spring. I do know one thing, coach treats players with dignity as young men learning to adjust in a new situation. Of course there are lots of practical jokes trying to embarass each other (coaches and players included), but that is what has made the team chemistry and all in good fun. Dave's team mate was punished a few times for being late to practice and had to run, now Dave makes sure that he is always on time. It is a very close team and they look out for one another so they don't get in trouble. I think that is the message the coach try to send.

In HS, if the team performed poorly as a whole, they all got to run. If it was for any other reason, it was dealt with individually.

This is something that I think alot of coaches struggle with quite frankly. I do not punish the team for an indivduals mistakes. If a player misses a sign or is late for practice etc the player is punished not the team. If the team does not hustle on the field or off then all are punished. I personally dont think it is fair to punish all the players for something that one has done. The players that are doing everything that you ask of them should not be punished because one kid decides to not follow the rules. Just my opinion

I am with Coach May on this one.....do not punish the entire team for an infraction by an individual; Team violations are just that, team violations and all will be disciplined.

Also try to be consistent and fair with your punishments. You will find that once everyone understands what has to be accomplished and how we accomplish those goals; discipline problems are almost non-existent.

Orioles42

Discipline no matter what the type has to be consistent. It is the same for every player.

we got a guy who goes by this philosophy:

if more than 5 players then it is a team problem

if less than 5 they are dealt with individually

Every coach handles this differently---

I prefer to deal with the players individually regardless of the offense

For me, it always depends on the situation. If a player is late, the whole team runs. If the player is disrespectful to an assistant coach or team member, he gets disciplined on his own.
I think every coach needs to have some flexibility in how he disciplines his team, and as long as the players understand that the punishment may differ but will always be FAIR, I think that is OK.

Sorry coach I must disagree..why should those who have made it to practice on time suffer due to someone elses inability to be there...we have created a generation of kids who play the "blame game"...no one accepts responsibility for their own actions..it is always somebody elses fault...by not holding the individual accountable for their OWN actions we are perpetuating the "game"..we all must be held responsible for what we do as individuals...if one of my children does something that warrants punishment do I punish all 3 or make it an individual punishment ...and we are the best "team" on earth

First of all, I'm not perfect so most will disagree with this post. I do both. However, the team knows from a team meeting the rational behind my decisions after the team is made. I try to operate on a system of 8 positives to one negative. However in our outlined rules, they are told that if it comes to that one negative, it will be serious.

Some examples:

• Get sent to the office for some discipline matter and be issued a Saturday school etc. the team runs. (Rational the team will also be punished if that player is suspended in "Saturday School" while we are playing a Double Header.
  
• Argue with a teammate and the team runs. (We are a team and if we divide ourselves, we are helping the enemy)
  
• Fail in your responsibilites at working on the field, putting up equipment etc. the team runs. (Rational - We don't have any "stars" on our team. We are a team and we all do the dirty work.)

For individual punishment - Really, this is a person to person issue. I don't punish for missed signs etc. I do for cursing, actions not in the best interest of the team (late, missing equipment, spreading rumors, wearing your hat backwards etc.) It is always done first by having my player sit in my car so that we can have a one on one talk. I don't want anyone around and I don't want to wonder if anyone is outside our office door listening. I will be brutally honest with the player. I will ALWAYS ASK THEIR SIDE OF THE ISSUE. I will explain mine. When all is said and done, I am the law and I do drop the hammer!

One last thought, discipline really takes care of itself if you treat these young men like young men on a mission. They understand sacrifice. They understand the bigger picture. However, if you don't demonstrate those same values you stress, you will have trouble.

I haven't yet heard any details about my freshman son's college coaches' discipline philosophy. However, I have observed that team unity seems more important on the college team than any he has previously experienced - they are all united in a very strong commitment to a common mission. So that may be part of the rationale for team punishment, encouraging them to keep each other in line and to all "pitch in" to take care of their share, or more, of any responsibilities.

CoachB25...I agree with most things you say, but a definite "NO' on punishing the team for an individuals school issues is ludacrist. That is an individual issue and really needs parental discipline...as well as you sitting him or running him individually, whatever you choose. On the field issues are different than school issues.

If he were my son, you wouldn't see him for a week anyway...then you can have at him when he returns.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starzz:
CoachB25...I agree with most things you say, but a definite "NO' on punishing the team for an individuals school issues is ludacrist. That is an individual issue and really needs parental discipline...as well as you sitting him or running him individually, whatever you choose. On the field issues are different than school issues.

If he were my son, you wouldn't see him for a week anyway...then you can have at him when he returns.

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Starzz, thanks for the honest response. I do appreciate the critique. I never said I was perfect. I have to do those things that work for us. When I came here, I had several players of which people said, "you'll never control them." Well, we had our parent/player meeting. I laid out my rules. Sure some people grumbled. However, those kids knew I was serious and so... To this point, I have never had to discipline a varsity player for being sent to the office. They simply don't get sent there. You'd also be surprised of the parental support I receive. I think that with regards to discipline, any parent, coach, etc. has to be upfront and establish the boundaries. I also believe that the kids I'm associated want to do good. Sure they are little snots at times. However, they know the line and they don't cross it. We remarked the other day that we haven't disciplined our kids in the last 3 years. No wonder times seems to fly. BTW, we have also done a lot of winning in those last 3 years. I think they go hand in hand. Again, thanks for your honest remarks. When I do have all of the answers someday, I'll let everyone here in on them. LOL!

Coach B,

I agree with using different methods of correction. This post made me think about what I've done in the past.

If it is a school disciplinary problem, I tend to make it some sort of individual correction.
If it is related to the team, that is, doing something that will harm the team (being late for practice, screwing around in practice, etc.) then the whole team will be disciplined.

Why? Well, I agree with Catchermom about needing individual responsibility, but we are a team....if one teammate does something wrong, the whole team suffers. If a player is late, we have to wait for him, or go over things again because he is late. Especially if this happens more than once, I want his teammates to correct him OR I want him to understand that he is hurting his TEAM, he isn't hurting ME.

One time in particular, I had 5 seniors come late to practice because they went to a Reds game, and got a late start back for practice. I had them all take a knee in Center field and watch their teammates run poles for a long, long, long time. Some of them begged to be allowed to run with their teammates. I said no. I wanted them to understand that THEIR behavior affected the entire TEAM.

Then, after they were done running, I gave a short lecture and told the players they had 5 minutes to discuss what happened without me being involved. They all got together and those 5 got an earful from their teammates....after the season was over, several of those players told me it was the best lesson they ever learned.

Another one I've used came from teh LSU coach. He'd have all the other players run for a player being late or some other offense. Then he'd have the players line up and, one by one, the player apologized to his teammates. They as a team, then told the player they loved him, but they didn't love what he did. They then forgave him and then asked him to remember not to do it again. This can also have a strong influence on players.

I understand why some coaches punish the whole team for an individual infraction/discipline
problem in hopes that this will build team unity and it probably works in a lot of cases.

That being said I have to come down on the side of disciplining the individual and making them responsible for their own actions. After all, isn't this the way most of us have raised our own children? I can't imagine my putting my daughter on restrictions along with my son because he missed his curfew on Friday night-??????? Yes, I know it's a baseball
team compared to a family but the logic is the same. A kid does everything he is asked to do
plus a lot more; chases down foul balls when the "stars" never do; helps take care of the field; keeps the dugout clean; always positive to his teammates; always hustles; rarely
gets into a game and he has to run extra sprints because the "star" did not run out a pop up? Sorry, I think there are better ways to build team unity without punishing the whole
team for individual indiscretions.

My son was late ONE minute for hitting this September at USF and had to report at 6oAM
the next morning for drills(they worked his tail off). The rest of the team heard the whole
story at practice the next day---needless to say he's been early ever since and the team is
unified.

If you spend a lot of time disciplining then you have none. As I said before you have rules and you enforce them when you need to enforce them. Consistency is the key. The number one pitcher has the same rules and must follow them just as much as the kid that is on the bench. In todays world some think that discipline is great as long it is for the other guy.

Catchermom, TCB1 hit on it....you punish the entire team (hopefully only once or twice) because then the team takes responsibility for ensuring the those that resist falling in line, eventually do. It's called peer pressure and no coach can affect a young man's behavior as much as his peers. Up here in Wisconsin it's cold. It's 27 degrees the other morning and my son is leaving for school without a jacket. I tell him at least three times to put on a jacket and he's telling me no, I'll be alright until his buddy shows up and says hey, it's freezin out. Without hesitation he goes and puts on his letter jacket. I walk back to my office and wonder why no one listens to me anymore ;> I think I'll ask his buddy to tell him to clean my gutters!

CoachB25...none of us are perfect or ever will be...and what I said is my opinion and mine alone. If a player has a school issue, grades or whatever, and he misses or is late to practice or can't play, I still believe his individual discipline will further help the team than team discipline. I'll explain.

Let's say he get's an after school discipline or has a Sat class due to some school issue. Even misses a game. He is your starting 3rd baseman. You have another kid that plays behind him surely...so his mistake actually gives the back-up a chance he may not get and plays the game. I believe you just set a presedent sp? that will permeate the team and let them know where you stand on these issues. Now...

The player comes back after serving his discipline with the school...now it's your turn. He already knows his back-up has played for him and (my suggestion) he now sits another game and is now the back-up until he proves to his teammates and you that he can handle adversity, and...i believe you now have his ultimate attention and the respect of the team. In addittion you have not subjected the team to any punishment other than one of their own now has served his discipline and I believe one of 2 things will happen...1- he returns to previous status by re-earning it, or 2- he feels he was unjustly benched and he goes the wrong way...better to find out now...and you just may have developed a player?

Sorry to be so lengthy but this is a serious issue at many schools and as you can see I feel rather strongly about it having coached for many years.

Continue as you will, and I am sure you will be successful, but I hope I gave you some food for thought.

Best of luck!

Since we're on this subject I thought this might be worth reading...Today's Memphis Newspaper:

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Memphis Commercial Appeal November 18, 2004
Maybe there was something in the dip?
The entire eighth-grade class at Geeter Middle School was suspended Wednesday by the Whitehaven school's principal after what city school officials termed a "massive food fight" in the school's cafeteria and a show of defiance afterward by the children.
Principal Jada Meeks took the extraordinary action when the eighth-graders refused to apologize for or clean up the mess.
The grade 6-8 school, at 4649 Horn Lake, has 637 students. It was not known late Wednesday how many students are in the eighth-grade class.
City school officials said the food fight on meat loaf day came after several days of problems with eighth-graders at the school.
The food brawl caused minor damage to the cafeteria with the more daunting task being a cleanup of the area.
"Given an opportunity first to apologize for their behavior and help with the cleanup, most of the class refused to cooperate," said school spokesman Vince McGaskill in a written statement. "She took this unusual step because student and staff safety was also compromised by the student disruption."
Meeks, who could not be reached for comment late Wednesday, is to meet with parents as a group at the school today at 5 p.m. and will be available to talk with parents and their children one-on-one during the school day today.
Geeter is one of 22 city schools that got an overhaul over the summer in an attempt to remake schools on the state's list of troubled schools.
In addition to Meeks, more than half of the staff is new.
"We know that this is an extreme measure, and in hindsight there may have been other ways to send an equally strong message to students and parents," McGaskill's statement read. "Suspending students is never desirable. In this case, the principal felt that strong, some may say shocking measures, were called for to spur change."
On the menu was a choice of meatloaf or a chicken breast sandwich, potato batter bites, spinach, crispy vegetables with dip, cornbread and bananas.

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Will

Great post

Today is so different than what it used to be

Starzz, I'm with you on this one. I don't doubt that the coaches who have posted on
this thread have been successful with achieving a disclipined team when they have
punished the whole team for an individual's indescretion and I also don't doubt that they are very good coaches and would have no problem with my sons playing for them even though I disagree with their philosophy. I have a question for the coaches. You all say that you DO have team punishment when individual players do not adhere to the guidelines you have established, but you also state that you have
individual punishments as well. Where do you draw the line and why? I understand
the reasoning that the rest of the team will make sure that the rules breaker will
"tow the line" from now on, but why are you putting the responsibility of disciplining on your players when it is clearly YOUR responsibility. Are you then
going to allow the "team" to determine the lineup, to take a vote when to replace
a pitcher, or batter? Decide how long practice will be? etc. I'll bet not.

I just do not go along with the theory that it develops "team unity" to punish
players that have done nothing but give 100% to the team so that it might make
a "slacker" get in line. I've seen first hand where this kind of discipline has
torn a team apart, because the slackers knew that the coach was still going to play them no matter how much they goofed off.

I think a swift and hard punishment the first time a rule is broken will do more for team unity than anything else. Rules without consequences are not really rules.

JMHO

Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.

The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.

Coaching is teaching.

If you're a poor teacher you use punishment...if you're a teacher with tact and proper tools you use instruction and incentives.

In all cases the team, through its Captains must be responsible for managing the problems associated with non-compliance of the rules the team agrees to abide by. Believe me they can be more stringent and severe with their peers than you.

Almost every team I ever coached went to the Championship game because of the players, not because of the coaches.

PIC, there are many tools in the coaching/teaching toolbox. It's not an all or nothing deal. Methods are varied as the personalities we deal with and to say that only positive reinforcement works is just plain naive. The finest and most effective training I've ever received was from the Marines in Pensacola. I don't ever remember getting a biscuit there!

Starzz, you make a great point. However, you aren't considering things such as regional and sectional seeds etc. that I, as a coach, have to think about. Say John John gets a Saturday school. We play Ralph at 3rd for two games. Sure it helps get Ralph experience. However, if we don't go into that Double Header fully loaded we could drop 2 games. We schedule schools from a much bigger conference for each of our double headers. Those are the same schools we have to be rated against in our seed meeting. Typically we get one of the top 4 votes which give us home field advantage etc. in the past but now just gets us a first round game against a poor opponent. We can save our #1 for game 2. THE PAST 3 YEARS WE HAVE WON THAT 4TH SPOT BY 1 VOTE! We are the only school in our conference, because we are much smaller, to get one of those top 4 seeds. We only get it because our head to head against that other conference is so outstanding. One starter gets a Saturday school and we could literally be sent 80 miles away for our regional/sectionals.

PIC, I disagree when you say, "Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools." Punishment is. However, Discipline is what you want to make of it. I agree that it should be positive and if done right, it will come from within the players. However, discipline is effective from either positive or negative reinforcement if that individual being punished respects that person implimenting the punishment. I was once thrown off of my high school basketball team. I've never complained etc. I deserved to be thrown off. That same coach never missed one of my home high school baseball games and I respect him to this very day.

Discipline is a negative teaching tool? Without discipline their is no team. We are all free to choose are own actions but not the consequences of those actions. A disciplined structured environment is what sports are. When players are not disciplined and have no consequences for being undisciplined you have a total breakdown. I do not enjoy having to punish players. But it is part of the job. Teaching kids to be responsible and follow rules is part of coaching. When they dont follow the rules they must be disciplined. Your statement that discipline is a negative teaching tool is ridiculous.

Pic

You stated if you are a poor teacher you use punishment. so if there is a team rule about something and one of the players breaks that rule what would you do? One time I 'disciplined" three players who were caught drinking. Team rule was any involvement with drugs or alcohol will result in being put off the team. What would you have done? According to your premise I was a "poor" teacher because I used "discipline" or "punishment". I am confused.

CoachB25...I understand your concern and follow you totally...however, you are basing your discipline on winning and I am basing it on future development of the team and the player. If you let the seeding dictate where you set your priorities with a player, then I believe you are setting an example that will be short-lived.

If your players would rather have a team member that can come back and play immediately over a player that stands by all the rules, then I think they are missing the final point to becoming a man..."to be responsible for your actions." " to lead by example" and "to honor your actions as your word"

I know I am old fahioned to some, but letting down a team is far less important than getting the lesson from the deed.

I would travel 100 miles to play with the 9 that follows my lead rather than have the best pitcher on the mound at home.

I have a feeling that your team can/will compete and have the opportunity to win at any venue, and based on your experience, you can lead them to the dogpile on any visiting field!! It is more fun on their turf!

I have enjoyed our debate and hope that you will entertain that there may be another way...

Good Luck this year!

Starzz, when you say that I am "short-sighted," it is the difference between theory and reality. In theory, I would agree with you and as I noted from your profile, you are a parent and so, you certainly might not like my methods. However, the reality is that one or two wins here or there determine our playoffs. I have to do whatever I have to do to ensure my Seniors have success. There is one other reality that I have to deal with. Once a program makes a turn around and is successful as this one is, if you cease to have that success that is now expected, you or I in this case will be fired. This week, one of the new subdivisions about 1000 feet from our new campus sold 4 lots in a culdesac. Those 4 homes were sold to members of a traveling baseball team from another community that are moving in mass to our school district to play baseball. That is the respect/reputation we have earned in our area. Certainly that is contingent on winning year in and year out. As I might have posted earlier, I haven't had to discipline for this infraction to this point. I hope I never do. I do make my rules and punishments clear to the parents and players in a joint meeting. Heck, then they can take their kid off of the team if they don't like it. I'm certainly not in this for a popularity contest. All of my post on this subject are JMHO!

Catchermom- I understand what you are saying, but baseball is a game of accountability. Each player must take care of his own business, or the team fails. I use team discipline NOT to punish everyone on the team, but to help players understand that their bad choices AFFECT the entire team...this is true in games, so why not in practice? Thanks for your input, though...it is always good to think about things from someone else's point of view.

PIC- I don't care HOW disciplined you are as a coach or how hard you work to get kids to do things correctly...they will still make mistakes. Discipline isn't done simply to punish...it is done to help players focus on their responsibilities to the team as a PART of the team. I don't run kids because I DISLIKE them....I run them because I love them and I want to help them get focused to make better choices in the future.

quote:

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Originally posted by Coach Knight:
Catchermom- I understand what you are saying, but baseball is a game of accountability. Each player must take care of his own business, or the team fails. I use team discipline NOT to punish everyone on the team, but to help players understand that their bad choices AFFECT the entire team...this is true in games, so why not in practice? Thanks for your input, though...it is always good to think about things from someone else's point of view.

PIC- I don't care HOW disciplined you are as a coach or how hard you work to get kids to do things correctly...they will still make mistakes. Discipline isn't done simply to punish...it is done to help players focus on their responsibilities to the team as a PART of the team. I don't run kids because I DISLIKE them....I run them because I love them and I want to help them get focused to make better choices in the future.

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No you run kids because it is part of a scheduled routine as part of a physical fitness program which is monitored on a per player basis for improvement in lapsed times.

Anything else is incorrect and offers no benenfit to the player.

Discipline is garnered through pride in achievement, and instilling of desired approval of their peers through positive feedback and a desire on their part not to disappoint their peers.

If their peers do not have a disciplined leader of their own age then the team does not belong to them...it is yours and they have no ownership interest. They only do what you say out of wanting to stay on the team, not because they endeavor to reach attainable goals that they have all committed to.

Observe who the leaders are or potentially are, ususally one pitcher, catcher, infielder and an outfielder.

Sit down with these four Captains and provide a set of rules as a template. Then discuss these with them and tell them to arrange a team meeting with just the players. Have then make notes and suggested changes.

Re-meet with the Captains and go over the discussed player changes. Discuss them for logical implemetation in alignment to overall doable team goals.

Have them go back and inform the team what has been decided by the team in conjunction with the Captains, Coaches and the Team.

Then turn the discipline over to the Captains and have them consult with you on infractions so you can advise...but not implement.

The key to success is in the remedial instruction both at the personal level and the team level.

Maintain the corrective action in a teaching environment as part of the scheduled practice or game routine. Don't single people out for embarassment or putdowns in front of their peers. It works against team cohesion.

The teaching environment can be useful to achieve discipline as part of the curriculum.

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Almost every team I ever coached went to the Championship game because of the players, not because of the coaches.

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Can certainly understand how true those words must be!

Discipline have nothing to do with punishment, running, or else. Most of the time discipline have a lot to do with knowledge, fun, capacity and results.
Some times punishment, and running, and else.. are used to hide coaches inability, coaches incapacity, coaches boring practices. Kids today, know more about baseball that 30 years ago, since TV games, and estrategies are so well explained for broadcasters (usually former players) that tv games become baseball classes. So, if the coach is not a good one, kids lost interest and indiscipline it born. Same happen at school, or wherever kids are. Baseball is a game and is supose to be fun, punishments are not fun.

quote:

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Originally posted by PiC:

quote:

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Originally posted by Coach Knight:
Catchermom- I understand what you are saying, but baseball is a game of accountability. Each player must take care of his own business, or the team fails. I use team discipline NOT to punish everyone on the team, but to help players understand that their bad choices AFFECT the entire team...this is true in games, so why not in practice? Thanks for your input, though...it is always good to think about things from someone else's point of view.

PIC- I don't care HOW disciplined you are as a coach or how hard you work to get kids to do things correctly...they will still make mistakes. Discipline isn't done simply to punish...it is done to help players focus on their responsibilities to the team as a PART of the team. I don't run kids because I DISLIKE them....I run them because I love them and I want to help them get focused to make better choices in the future.

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No you run kids because it is part of a scheduled routine as part of a physical fitness program which is monitored on a per player basis for improvement in lapsed times.

Anything else is incorrect and offers no benenfit to the player.

Discipline is garnered through pride in achievement, and instilling of desired approval of their peers through positive feedback and a desire on their part not to disappoint their peers.

If their peers do not have a disciplined leader of their own age then the team does not belong to them...it is yours and they have no ownership interest. They only do what you say out of wanting to stay on the team, not because they endeavor to reach attainable goals that they have all committed to.

Observe who the leaders are or potentially are, ususally one pitcher, catcher, infielder and an outfielder.

Sit down with these four Captains and provide a set of rules as a template. Then discuss these with them and tell them to arrange a team meeting with just the players. Have then make notes and suggested changes.

Re-meet with the Captains and go over the discussed player changes. Discuss them for logical implemetation in alignment to overall doable team goals.

Have them go back and inform the team what has been decided by the team in conjunction with the Captains, Coaches and the Team.

Then turn the discipline over to the Captains and have them consult with you on infractions so you can advise...but not implement.

The key to success is in the remedial instruction both at the personal level and the team level.

Maintain the corrective action in a teaching environment as part of the scheduled practice or game routine. Don't single people out for embarassment or putdowns in front of their peers. It works against team cohesion.

The teaching environment can be useful to achieve discipline as part of the curriculum.

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Sounds great in theory PIC.....straight out of a classroom methods book...but unfortunately kids do not all react alike...nor do teams...you better get to know your players and what makes them respond...and that team captain enforcing all guidelines BS is ridiculous...now some instances yes, things do need to be handled by the players but you're trying to imply your way is THE way...and to be frank, there have been many more successful "tough love" coaches than these "new wave" idealists like yourself...and not that your way can't work...just stating a fact...

PIC- I agree to part of what you are saying, in that I agree that conditioning should be a part of your program for positive reasons.
However, the rest of what you said is unfortunately fantasy and can't work in the real world of high school sports. I wish it could...but anyone that has coached high school ball for any length of time knows that it can't happen.
Most of the best programs in the country use conditioning (not necessarily running, could be other forms) to punish players who make poor choices. I do have captains, they do have responsibilities, and my players do work their tails off for me out of respect....but they're still kids and that means that I have an obligation to help them.

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Originally posted by Racab:
Discipline have nothing to do with punishment, running, or else. Most of the time discipline have a lot to do with knowledge, fun, capacity and results.
Some times punishment, and running, and else.. are used to hide coaches inability, coaches incapacity, coaches boring practices. Kids today, know more about baseball that 30 years ago, since TV games, and estrategies are so well explained for broadcasters (usually former players) that tv games become baseball classes. So, if the coach is not a good one, kids lost interest and indiscipline it born. Same happen at school, or wherever kids are. Baseball is a game and is supose to be fun, punishments are not fun.

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Racab said: times punishment, and running, and else.. are used to hide coaches inability, coaches incapacity, coaches boring practices.

Racab they will defend this to the death of the kids interest in baseball.

Sounds great in theory PIC.....straight out of a classroom methods book...but unfortunately kids do not all react alike...nor do teams...you better get to know your players and id12pack said: what makes them respond...and that team captain enforcing all guidelines BS is ridiculous...now some instances yes, things do need to be handled by the players but you're trying to imply your way is THE way...and to be frank, there have been many more successful "tough love" coaches than these "new wave" idealists like yourself...and not that your way can't work...just stating a fact...

After you watch the movie "Sandlot" plug in your post into that story and realize that the script is based upon a true story.

Kids don't need adults to play baseball. What they need is guidance and support. Now they could use tips on how to do certain things and explanations of the rules, but even that can be done by one kid who knows the ropes.

Take that "Sandlot" model and add yourself into the picture. Now where do you fit in. If you don't see that your presence is only desirable if you can offer something they can use in having fun then you are a distraction. Most coaches don't even think about that, and now you know why we continue to lose kids to other sports.

quote:

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Originally posted by Coach Knight:
PIC- I agree to part of what you are saying, in that I agree that conditioning should be a part of your program for positive reasons.
However, the rest of what you said is unfortunately fantasy and can't work in the real world of high school sports. I wish it could...but anyone that has coached high school ball for any length of time knows that it can't happen.
Most of the best programs in the country use conditioning (not necessarily running, could be other forms) to punish players who make poor choices. I do have captains, they do have responsibilities, and my players do work their tails off for me out of respect....but they're still kids and that means that I have an obligation to help them.

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It does work, as my son is on a team now that has exactly the model I describe to you.

The last punishment was issued to a player that came late to practice. His punishment issued by the Captains. He had to run in a girl's dress for 3 miles. But there was no backing down by the team Captains and he ran the 3 in the dress and laughed all the while he was doing it...having fun in his faux pas.

But he got the point...without malice.

quote:

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Originally posted by Will:
Pic

You stated if you are a poor teacher you use punishment. so if there is a team rule about something and one of the players breaks that rule what would you do? One time I 'disciplined" three players who were caught drinking. Team rule was any involvement with drugs or alcohol will result in being put off the team. What would you have done? According to your premise I was a "poor" teacher because I used "discipline" or "punishment". I am confused.

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I am not against discipline...just against coaches assuming rolls that belong to the players to achieve it.

The proper method in this case is three fold. Team discipline, parental discipline, and school discipline. Why, because the infraction could touch all three areas.

But if the rules were discussed and agreed to by the team members in consort with the team Captains and the coaches...then the discipline is achieved when the sanction is carried out.

The Captains call the players in, go over the rules with their signatures on the documents and read the infractions. Then read the punishment and ask the players to meet with the coaches to exit from the team properly.

That's the way things are handled and when the other team members see that the rules are enforced by their Captains they will get the message. This is the unit model of the military and it works very effectively at the platoon and company level.

There is no malice in the action but rather respect for the dignity of the individuals.

Players ejected…coaches ejected…parents ejected...coaches fired...players released...NCAA punishes players…state athletic associations punish players…teachers suspend students…principals paddles students…parents ground children….What has society come too? Give me a break…
Lack of control, discipline, and punishment plays into the hands of those that are out of control and undisciplined...it creates total disorder if left unchecked. You don’t have to look very far to see this first hand…it even rears its ugly head on the HSBBW. Makes no difference if it’s in the home, the playground, the classroom, or in a public forum, we have to abide by the rules. We have to conform to societal standards as set forth by the majority.

Players drinking?...Where?..at practice?..at game? What were the other players doing at the time, where was the coach?..Come on! In my oppinion, coach is as responsable as the players. That is what I mint, if players respect the coach, they don't do that, but respect have to be deserved with capacity, and knoledge. Players need to feel proud of their coach, coach have to earn that respect. What you do if your son is the one drinking?.. you throw him out from home, or you get help for him? Do you think that may be you are the problem why your son is drinking?
Discipline is a very complex matter, and believe me, a big part of any group discipline belong to the leader. That is why, when a team is not working properly the owner change the coach, no the players.

PIC,
Let me get this straight. In another thread you have torn apart a coach because your son obviously did not get the playing time you felt he deserved yet you see nothing wrong in one of your son's teammates running in a DRESS? I'll bet my next paycheck if it was your son,you would have been out of control.

You think by embarrasing a player that gets their attention? That breeds contempt and hatred. These are young men, punishments should be handled with dignity. I see no problem with team captains setting rules for discipline but the coach sets the guidelines. Shame on the coach for allowing such a thing.
Remind us once again where your son goes to school. It certainly should be on ones' list NOT to attend!

That is so funny.
Suggesting running 3 miles in a dress is showing repsect for the dignity of the individuals???? C'mon!

Severel MLB teams have initiation rights for the rookies where "dress-up" is required. It is not done as dicipline, rather a right of passage.....and they all say it is humiliating
and very embarrassing....not dignified, to be traipsing through an airport in heels and a tight skirt

Tiger

You said: Let me get this straight. In another thread you have torn apart a coach because your son obviously did not get the playing time you felt he deserved

First, that is not the reason for the dispute with referenced coach...and unless he wants to post it here I won't discuss the reasons for my differences with Rob Bruno.

Secondly, the team voted for the right of the Captain's to discipline them so they are under their own self-governing agreement...and even though you or I might have some trepidation about the manner of discipline, unless it is an unsafe method, or could create a risk to the health of the player I see no real harm done to this player.

Thirdly, as a native born Californian, if I could I would send all the non-Californians back to their respective states where they come from...they have come here with their socialist cockimaime ideas and ruined what was once the great State Of California.

At least I can count on all the websters from HSBBWEB not moving to California to attend my son's college...thank goodness.

Chill

You said: That is so funny

As explained to me that is the intent and methods employed by the Captains to achieve their aims. The team has great chemistry and are always joking around and ragging each other. It is a nice loose environment...and yet very seriious at their practice regimen and routines.

Who are we to judge their team spirit and methods since we have not been privy to the agreement reached by the coaches and players?

PIC,
You just set yourself up for the great wrath of the Californians. You seem to have much to say, but not really actually "listen " to what others do.
Knowing Chill, I don't think she actually meant it as being "funny".
Dressing up for initiating rights, bets, no problem here, doesn't belong in discipline or punishments. I repeat, COACH should shame himself.
FYI, I am glad we reside on opposite sides of the country.

I'll take Fungo's advice and not argue with an idiot.

If anyone told me that my child was "punished by team captains" instead of the coach, I would be punishing the coach. Now, I'm very strict so please forgive me when I say, "I am the law. I am the only law. Those that don't abide by the law will not be here." That is taken straigh out of my parent's speech. It is in the context of what happens regarding our program. Also, it is taken in context of anyone that wants to cause my assistant coaches at any level heartache. It is never the role of "Captains" of a team to melt out discipline. Personally, I don't believe in them and don't have them. I do make sure that the seniors represent a position of respect above other players. BTW, that coach has left himself in line for a law-suit should anyone of the community find this out. In our area, we had a coach/school, as strange as this seems, sued because the kid was told he needed a tampon.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
PIC,
You just set yourself up for the great wrath of the Californians. You seem to have much to say, but not really actually "listen " to what others do.
Knowing Chill, I don't think she actually meant it as being "funny".
Dressing up for initiating rights, bets, no problem here, doesn't belong in discipline or punishments. I repeat, COACH should shame himself.
FYI, I am glad we reside on opposite sides of the country.

I'll take Fungo's advice and not argue with an idiot.

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Only thing worth responding to...

You said: FYI, I am glad we reside on opposite sides of the country

Maybe you could think of a way to get all the people who think like your kind of idiots to move to your state? Hmmmm...

quote:

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
If anyone told me that my child was "punished by team captains" instead of the coach, I would be punishing the coach. Now, I'm very strict so please forgive me when I say, "I am the law. I am the only law. Those that don't abide by the law will not be here." That is taken straigh out of my parent's speech. It is in the context of what happens regarding our program. Also, it is taken in context of anyone that wants to cause my assistant coaches at any level heartache. It is never the role of "Captains" of a team to melt out discipline. Personally, I don't believe in them and don't have them. I do make sure that the seniors represent a position of respect above other players. BTW, that coach has left himself in line for a law-suit should anyone of the community find this out. In our area, we had a coach/school, as strange as this seems, sued because the kid was told he needed a tampon.

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That's because the program is all about you, not your players...

PIC,
Obviously you never looked to see that I reside in South Florida. We teach our kids to be "tolerant".
Expressing ones opinion does not make an idiot. Putting down others' opinions, while defending your own, does.
You and a few others around here, JUST DON'T GET IT.
I am done.

Tiger

I was simply responding to your insult at the end of one of your previous post when you said:

I'll take Fungo's advice and not argue with an idiot.

I will respectfully continue my right to self-defense.

Talk about a dog chasing his tail--PiC you are it !!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Talk about a dog chasing his tail--PiC you are it !!!!!

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TR

I get your point...but ask me if I care if you ever agree with anything I say...the answer, no.

Your other point...the only people that are important to see my son play are his teammates, and coaches...they are the ones his has to earn respect from.

TigerPawMom....http://www.marin.cc.ca.us/p
Here you go...can't even find the baseball page only their political views...what a mirror image of PIC.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starzz:
TigerPawMom....http://www.marin.cc.ca.us/p
Here you go...can't even find the baseball page only their political views...what a mirror image of PIC.

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If you hadn't mentioned my name I would have ignored your post.

The school politics are completely opposite mine. My son has his own political point of view.

The District just received a very large bond measure which passed in the last election which will update and expand the entire school. The baseball facilities, though very nice right now, will be completely updated and expanded to include additional fields and functional support venues for the team..ie, enclosed batting cages, weight rooms and sports medicine rehab labs and machines and the like.

Starzz,
Mine's taken care of already, good reminder for the parents just going through the process.
I don't care how good the bb program is at a school. I know my son, who is a prankster and jokester since he could talk, would never consider that a valuable lesson.
Clemson head coach Jack Leggett has for many years run an Omaha Challenge before season starts. This week long event teaches mental toughness, endurance, and develops team unity. It is that type of discipline that sends the signal of what expectations are expected from the coach. And it is activities such as this that fosters respect that should be given to him as well as any other coach, thereby limiting the necessity for punishment. I do believe that this is what you generally find in a college bb program, not humiliation, regardless of whether the team suffers as a whole or just an individual.

Coach B25,as a former teacher I never let my students set the rules. If they were unhappy I heard them out and I adjusted some rules now and then. My classroom was never about me, it was about my students.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Starzz,
Mine's taken care of already, good reminder for the parents just going through the process.
I don't care how good the bb program is at a school. I know my son, who is a prankster and jokester since he could talk, would never consider that a valuable lesson.
Clemson head coach Jack Leggett has for many years run an Omaha Challenge before season starts. This week long event teaches mental toughness, endurance, and develops team unity. It is that type of discipline that sends the signal of what expectations are expected from the coach. And it is activities such as this that fosters respect that should be given to him as well as any other coach, thereby limiting the necessity for punishment. I do believe that this is what you generally find in a college bb program, not humiliation, regardless of whether the team suffers as a whole or just an individual.

Coach B25,as a former teacher I never let my students set the rules. If they were unhappy I heard them out and I adjusted some rules now and then. My classroom was never about me, it was about my students.

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Sorry but you're wrong on this...

A player humiliates himself when he willfully breaks a known rule of the team.

Disciplinary actions by his peers brings him back into their fold under their terms.

The coach is there to bring an adult perspective into the potential consequences of illegal actions.

Making a player run in a dress makes him a "girlie man" for 3 miles, but his original humiliation of disrespecting his teammates is over in 20 mintues after the run, and he then was accepted back with complete aplumb.

Major Payne, the movie, makes the point...may I suggest you watch it and enjoy a laugh.

If the kids wanted to coach, why are they players on a team? Why aren't those four Captains down at the Little League, oops sorry, Babe Ruth field with their own teams?

Coaches coach. Players play. I've seen coaches try to defacto discipline players via other players, with very poor results.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dad04:
If the kids wanted to coach, why are they players on a team? Why aren't those four Captains down at the Little League, oops sorry, Babe Ruth field with their own teams?

Coaches coach. Players play. I've seen coaches try to defacto discipline players via other players, with very poor results.

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It's the difference between Al Quida and the USA in philosophy. If that's to deep for you let me know.

Team or individual discipline? That's how this thread was started. My opinion
is that individual discipline is the proper way to go. Coaches are successful
with their programs using both methods. I still haven't had a coach come up with
any reasoning where they draw the line between individual and team discipline
and why.

As far as allowing players to mete out the discipline because the team voted on it is strictly nonsense and not worthy of discussion.

As stated before, Players play, Coaches coach!

Al Quida and USA what?

Dude, you are wack. Good luck with that.

I just dont get it. The word discipline and its place is being scrutinized here. Forgive my "old fashioned" ideas but bear with me. As a coach I made the rules. i did not have a meeting and have the team vote on them. I did not meet with the parents and ask their opinion. they never asked my opinion on their decisions at home. When one of the players broke any rule(and it did not happen very often)the captains or whatever did not met with the players yada yada yada. The buck stopped with me. Why is discipline or its enforcement any different than making out the lineup every game? do you have the captains or the players or whatever meet with you and decide who starts who does not who pitches who pays where? Coaches do your job. you can not please everybody and if you try you are in trouble.

WILL - you nailed it!!HS players [captains are not old/mature enough to handle discipline - in MLB - MAYBE - depends on team and captains, but HS - NO WAY!! Coach is in charge - end of story

Amen to that !!!!!!

PIC-
There comes a point in some arguments, much like those I've seen with Lambert and Teacherman in the past, where there is no use in taking the argument further. You have gotten to the point in this thread where your posts have become both laughable and ridiculous. I hope the next time I ask an intelligent question of the real coaches on this thread that you won't poison it with your gibberish.
Good night.

While I am old enough, successful enough and experienced enough in coaching and business to qualify for an opinion on leadership, I would never pass my opinion off on this forum as the gospel. I am truly open to hearing others ideas as are most adults I read here. In the relatively short time I have been reading and ocassionally posting I have discovered too many very experienced and thoughtful contributors. People who can teach me something including being a better person, I'm sure. Unfortunately due to lack of common respect, courtesy or pure arrogance, I have mentally started a list of posters that I will not read or respond to until they grow up. What a shame. PiC, you and Limom are on my short list. Not because of what you believe, but because you clearly disrespect other's opinions or use this board for your personal twisted gratification. If you can't see that by your posts and responses and feel wronged, leave me a private message and I'll take time to coach you through some examples. Somehow I think you know exactly what you are doing.

quote:

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Originally posted by PiC:

That's because the program is all about you, not your players...

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Pic, I'm sorry I give that impression. If fact, nothing could be more from the truth. It is about the kids. However, they need a coach and not a buddy. Having said that, my team and I are very close. We remain close long after they leave. Dad04, knows of a young lady I coached in basketball who is now a Rajun Cajun S-O-O_cer Player. Dad04, if you ever get the chance, please feel free to ask that young lady what she thinks of me.

Back to the subject- Discipline:

1. It has to be consistent.
2. It must come from the coach. (I believe in peer presure in this regard. However, any running etc. had better come from that coach.)
3. I believe it should follow a meeting with both Players and Parents where Players and Parents have an opportunity to voice their opinions BEFORE the season starts.
4. The most successful coaches use positive reinforcements many times more than they use negative.
5. IN MY OPINION, IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED UP WITH A DISCUSSION BETWEEN PLAYER AND COACH.
6. In any discipline, common sense must prevail. You don't destroy the kid in the kid to get your point across.
7. There are several areas that "make a coach." Believe me when I say that if a coach does not have discipline with regards to themselves and their team, they won't be around for long.
8. I BELIEVE KIDS WANT DISCIPLINE.

Pic accuses me of making my program all about me. I do have a huge ego. I've never hidden that fact. Ask yourselves, would you ever want your child to play for a coach that didn't have a serious belief in themselves and their program? Everything I type on this site is just my opinion. It is virtually worthless. I do appreciate a critique such as Starzz where valid points were made concerning my approach to discipline without personal attack.

Very well said, CoachB25. I agree with every point. Away from discipline but certainly regarding coaching, how do you deal with player growth? I've always felt that the toughest job a coach has is setting the bar of expectation for not only the team, but for every individual. Setting the bar just out of reach is difficult when every individual has different potential. Some coaches coach up the bottom 50%, some concentrate on the top 20% and very few have the time and ability to give 100% to 100% if that makes sense. Maybe this needs to be on the coaching thread but your post piqued my thoughts.

Halfmoonslider, I'll post my thoughts on that in the coach's forum so we don't hijack this thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by CoachB25:


Pic, I'm sorry I give that impression. If fact, nothing could be more from the truth. It is about the kids. However, they need a coach and not a buddy...

...Everything I type on this site is just my opinion. It is virtually worthless. I do appreciate a critique such as Starzz where valid points were made concerning my approach to discipline without personal attack.

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I appreciate the respectful tone of your message and it's measured and thoughtful construction.

Since the question is, Coaching philosophy on discipline?, I voiced my opinion as others here have done.

That being said, your message delivers the template that most good programs operate under.

The question, as I see it is, who owns the responsibility or as we call it the "R". Is it the coaches or the players? In the military style system the players are responsible and are held so through their peers for the outcome of their decisions.

In most systems that are presented and supported as the traditional way of doing things...the coach(s) own the "R". In that philosophy the "system" is imposed on the players and it becomes a test of wills.

Actually you see that same exact philosophy here where the will of the so called monitors or "the establishment" is imposed rather then inclusively accomodated. And how could that be done?... maybe by offering to take polls on the inclusion of certain types of topics as voiced by those who actually used the site. But that's another discussion.

It just seems to me that one should consider the proposition, As a coach, how do you see youself fitting into the team protrayed in the movie, "Sandlot" without distracting from the fun that those boys had together, and without any coaches?

To my way of thinking, most of what has been done to the game of baseball by adults is completely remove the fun of it. IMO that's the reason most kids are turning away from it and moving to other sports. It in part is due to this overemphasis on "punishment" and "discipline" as if those are mutually exclusive events aside from how the game really functions to teach the players through their own commitment to it, and dealing with the frustration of it's designed in failure rate.

Personally I know it's one of the reasons my son decided to go the college he is attending, because having fun playing baseball was more important to him then being at some prestigious school being miserable.

Coaching is teaching, nothing more and nothing less. It is not about satisfying ones ego through the feats and exploits of players.

As a kid I played baseball for years with a group of guys in San Francisco, just like Joe DiMaggio did on the public baseball fields before there was any organized Little Leagues.
Playing baseball back then was about getting better, but having fun in that we, the players controlled every aspect of the game. Adults were only there sometimes to help umpire a game or offer transportation assistance if we were going to play a team from across the city.

It was only after the owners of the MLB signed the big TV and advertising contracts that baseball excluded the players. They delivered into the hands of others all the decisions which has been more about getting the $$$ from the pot, then caring about the game of baseball. As a result of that kind of thinking it forced the players to form the MLBPA.

That difference in philosophy, that marginalizes the players to performers for pay, and not partners in the game, IMO has changed the game from one with that quality of innocence to a corrupted circus of avarice...

As a result of this, the owners find themselves on a financial petard which they impaled themselves with with the circus they've created. The MLB is now moving to develope and sign players that will sign for much less money that are from as many different countries as is possible. By doing so they are creating a much more intense environment in the USA for means and methods of players to achieve parity with their offshore counterparts, and are going to have to be willing to accept the consequences in less playing slots and less money.

As a result, this has given rise to the BB promoters who promise meeting the perceived criteria to all parents of the new paradigm in the reality of worldwide competition. They also influence what you are doing in your programs, otherwise you would not be here looking for answers.

Whether you realize it or not this model of paid performers is putting a tremendous amount of pressure on coaches like you. The institution of baseball and its supporters are expecting you to deliver to them the next Willie Mays, or the next Sandy Koufax...but not just one at a time...but multiples of each.

That pressure is transmitted to you through the parents and the institutions of higher learning. You have to realize that your program is not just competing in your local league, but it is also competing with globalization of the game.

Thus it is driving players away from the poor programs into the baseball mills and creating the impressions to their parents that they must move to districts where the baseball programs are the primos in the country, or spend enormous sums of money on privateers.

For you to stay competitive and increase your effectiveness, old methods must be analyzed and new methods must be evaluated for their approach and results. You have a most difficult and thankless task ahead and I do not envy your job. I respect the time and effort it takes for a HS coach to deal with the implied pressure and the reality of dealing with the new paradigm in baseball.

You have my best wishes.

Obviously Pic you are a very educated person. However, I feel you have never had to coach(or teach as you keep implying that we don't realize) a competitive team where your job depended on W's.
The "FUN" as you keep eluding to does not come from external stimuli. IT COMES FROM WITHIN. My desire to compete and make myself better is the source of my fun. How the coach choses to dicipline has no effect on my enjoyment of playing the game. The ONLY players I played with and the ones I now coach that EVER moaned about not having fun were/are the kids who weren't good enough to play or silver spoon kids.
I hate to bust you bubble but collegiate sports are not the same as sandlot baseball. If your son wants to just have fun them tell he we have a great intramural program. All kinds of activities designed for fun. If he wants to compete on a championship level tell him to get self motivated and realize that unless he's his own boss then he will be doing things the rest of his life that he doesn't want to do and may not find them FUN.
If he can't have fun by going out there and busting his tail, taking responsiblity for his actions, and doing the things I ask him to do(whether he(or you)agree with it)then I don't want him on my team and neither will a future employer.
This thread has me all worked up. The greatest team in the world, our armed forces, have the toughest coaches on the planet but yet they seem to work well as a unit. But hey, you're probably against them as well.
You're attitude, IMHO, is the reason we have so many soft, undisciplined kids today. Everybody wants to be patted on the back and told it's ok, you'll get'em next time....this is ridiculous...

id

Great post-- I have said it over and over-- too many silver spoons-- they cry to the College AD--I am not getting enough playing time=-- I thought you earned the right to start on the team--I thought you earned the right to travel with the team-- just because one makes a team does assure him of anything other than he is on the team and that can end today

What has also has been lost is the respect for authority

Call it old school if you will but kids need authority. It matters not what the era, mine, my kids , my grandkids---they still need authority--in the home, in school, on the ball field etc.

Coaches are not friends--they are authoritative figures and yes baseball can be fun even at a highly competitive level--in fact I find that more fun that playing at a sub par competitive level.

sometimes I think i am sitting in an inservice day for teachers you know when all the psychobabblers try to tell you up is down, Come on give the simple folk like me a break. When the kid breaks the rules he takes the consequences determined by the "coach". Lets movwe on

id12pack....

Great post!!

I think there is a misunderstanding of my position. Rules guide all orgainzations, or there is chaos as a result.

What I'm speaking about is: "who carries the burden?"

Children don't learn as well, nor do adults for that matter, if you are doing the doing.

Children and adults learn and "retain" the information, or modify their thinking based upon doing the learning or the task themselves.

Rules set the parameters of expectations...they do not set the heart or the mind in the compliance to those expectations.

You teach children and adults the best when you set up an environment where they assume responsibility for the roles that need to be carried out for the orgainzation to function.

You as the coach oversee this operation and are the ultimate arbitor of its effectiveness. Your role is to implement startegies that gain the desired results you want by using the roles of the players and giving them guidance on how to implement those startegies.

By doing it that way you are teaching them how to take responsibility for the "effort". Not based upon the desired "results" you want.

Teaching "Captains" how to "manage" is not wrong. It is part of their education in belonging to an organization. Every organization has a hierachal structure that functions best when roles are defined and responsibility for the authority of that role is giving to the role.

A team is like any other organization...

Those managers who have to micromanage every aspect of each role and function on a team are the least effective coaches. Why, because the roles that the players play are not owned by them, nor do they feel responsible for the outcome of their roles. They are nothing more than an extention of the coach...not a member of a team.

That has been my experience, both as a player and as a coach.

http://www.qcbaseball.com/philosophy/coaching1.aspx

Pic, I understand your posts. However, I coach in Madison County Illinois. It is the lawsuit capital of the United States. If you allow a Team Captain to discipline a team in this area, you will find yourself standing in front of one of those judges. I can guarantee that. One school district recently had a kid disciplined and told to run around the school several times. Team Captains were put in charge to make sure that the kid complied. The child being punished had an Asthma attack. The Team Captains kept demanding that the kid run. LAWSUIT!!! This one hasn't gone to court yet but we all know that this school district will lose and that the coach is going to get fired.

The only role of Team Captains is to lead by example. Other than that, it is called harrasment.

Pic....

I also understand your posts and am not going to disagree with the theories that you propose, but I would also say that each coach is going to have his/her unique leadership and communication style.

Your last post, I assume, is opinion rather than fact, as I speculate that there is research out there that could show us how best to get the desired results (ie. development of decision making skills and leadership skills, development of cohesive teams, theories of discipline in athletics, etc.).

In youth and high school sports, there are numerous variables that coaches must contend with, including but not limited to: the maturity level of the team's leaders and other players, the amount and diversity of parental influence on the individual players, the decision making ability of the players, the egos of the players, etc.

In my opinion, a coach knows that he is responsible for the actions of his team and the consequences of those actions. Different players will learn mature responsibilities at different rates and with varied teaching methods. Some players may need to be told what is to be done, others may have to experience negative consequences in order to fully learn the appropriateness of certain behaviors, etc.

In reality, the coach is the one who decides who is going to be in the lineup, which is not a minor responsibility. The coach is also responsible for what happens at practice and during games. The coach is the authority figure and must lead by example as well as allowing players to grow and develop with the methods that best suit his leadership style and personality.

A coach who handles disciplinary issues himself is not necessarily micro managing; he is simply putting his theories and philosophies (that he believes in) into practice.

Grateful

You said: Your last post, I assume, is opinion rather than fact, as I speculate that there is research out there that could show us how best to get the desired results (ie. development of decision making skills and leadership skills, development of cohesive teams, theories of discipline in athletics, etc.).

The only facts that I know hold up are those that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt...like death and taxes.

The rest is pretty much open to interpretation and/or opinion.

But we can make some best-questimates of typical anticipated outcomes based upon historical behaviorial studies of human behavior.

In the case of the baseball coach/player relationship we can postulate that at the root of its existence that both are motivated by the love of the game...elsewise we would be talking about plumbing.

So then, what causes the relationship to reach a point that the coach is forced to impose corrective punitive measures against a player who supposedly is in the raltionship because of the love of the game? Hmmm...good question.

Is it that the player didn't understand what was expected of him...maybe. but I don't think so. Baseball requires requires you to show up, be on time, and pay attention. Otherwise at the HS level most everyone knows what's expected of them. So what is it that causes a player to gain such a negative result as punishment or sanction?

The answer...boredom---better knwon as a breakdown in concentration and focus.

It is impossible to expect human beings to maintain intense concentration and focus for long periods of time. How do you offset this normal condition of all human beings. Change things up, give different roles to different players beside playing baseball...in other words you must realize that human beings don't stop other interest just because they play baseball...even when they are with the team in practice or in a game.

How do you get them to stay focused, give them a job to do, make that job important to the team and to them by setting the "effort" level.
How do you do that when they are away from the ballpark and you...give them a job to do and set the effort level again. What do I mean, give them a responsibility to the team and themselves to show some improvement in there knowledge on a weekly basis. Give them community level responsibilities to help at a hospital, church, or at the school for fund raising, providing security at local ball games for the football team, running the snack shack forthe athletic department, and things like that.

There are a merriad of things that can be done to offset boredom.

How do you off set boredom at practice...stop talking and make your practices snappy, moving from one drill to the next, section off the field and have at least four drills going on at all times.

And for goodness sake never throw batting practice. That is done by your Group A and Group B batteries.

By teaching players how to set the "effort" as the motivation factor they will learn that self-motivation is about coming to terms with understanding how "effort" is the energizer of commitment. Becoming more task oriented with structure and organization can go a long way to avoiding the negative effects that all humans suffer from when boredom controls their time.

Stop Boredom and control discipline problems!!

PIC- Very intelligent post, as usual...but you are still dealing in fantasy land. Are you telling me that EVERY COACH IN THE COUNTRY that punishes his athletes (read: every coach in the country PERIOD!) is wrong? Seriously? Players will make mistakes, they will break rules, and they will need to be reprimanded. If you think that a coach that DOESN'T have to discipline players is doing it right, you are off....that coach simply didn't set his STANDARDS high enough.
If a program is to be successful, players must be pushed. I heard a great quote onetime:
"A coach's job is to make players do what they don't want to do, so that they can be what they want to be." Very true. In other words, players will push the boundaries, they will at times be lazy, and they will make mistakes...it is the nature of individuals in general, not just athletes.
You have stated that coaches are first and foremost teachers...I agree 100%. Then why do teachers in the classroom (I have been one for 9 years) have to use discipline from time to time? Are THEY all screwed up and doing it wrong too?
Bottom line: Discipline is necessary in all walks of life for many different reasons. To pretend that people function better simply by policing themselves is putting one's head in the sand.
I respect your theories on this, and I have to say that you state your opinions more eloquently than any writer this side of Grantland Rice, but I have to disagree with you on this one.

With all the psychobabble that is flying around here I think i must brush up on my psychology 101. We are going to need a shovel soon.

I've got to go get some aspirin. I'm having a bout of cognitive dissonance.

Pic,
Give it a rest...you aren't convincing us and we aren't convincing you...you love to display your ability to use the Thesarus for antonyms, synonyms and dumbonyms..as for myself....
Hum this to Heat Wave.....
I'm having a hot flash
A tropical hot flash
My personal summer is really a bummer
I'm having a hot flash

Comes on like a car crash
No warning just hot flash
Outside it is nippy, but I'm hot and drippy
I'm having a hot flash.....

Catchermom

WOW

I just got a hot flash reading catchermoms post

Pic have you ever coached 14 15 16 17 18 19 year old High School players? You can have a great relationship with your players. You can foster an environment that is both challenging and stimulating. But in order to maintain a disciplined environment you have to enforce discipline. We all from time to time must be disciplined in some form or another. The reason is we are all human and humans make mistakes or choose to do wrong intentionally.

Not baseball related, but this is from my son's former HS. This coach is well respected throughout the state. Maybe this is a mid-West culture, but IMHO, he's on the right track.

http://www.chieftain.com/sports/1101223351/5

PIC-

Why are you so down on coaches? Obviously some coaches are better than others, but that's life. Deal with it and move on.

I think it is acceptable to use team leaders to help run practices and encourage younger players. Their role modeling helps establish expectations and behavior.

However, players should NEVER be in the position to hand out discipline. That is a coaches job and as a parent I would not tolerate it.

Your posts confuse me because you profess to be a conservative, but your messages say otherwise.

I know I will be sorry for chiming in, but here goes.

Teenagers are Brain Dead!!!!!!!!! Just ask Bill Cosby, one of the wisest men to ever live . The nicest kids, the best kids, all make mistakes and do something stupid which requires discipline. My sons HS coach is a very strict disciplinarian. His first year at the school, he kicked the #1 pitcher from the previous 2 years off the team BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED! But the kids love him and would walk through a mine field for him. They know exactly where they stand with him.

As for the original question, team or individual punishment, in his case it depends on the offense. The most important thing he does is treats everyone with respect and makes fun of everyone from the best player on the team to the kid who only gets in games when the score is 100-0. He treats them all the same, discipline wise.

It is interesting he has a philosophy of not cutting anyone, Small enough program where he really hasn't had to. But every kid knows his role on the team from the day the teams are announced. If a Kid will see no playing time , he tells them outright. Then some kids will decide not to stay with the team, knowing what their limited role will be. But the vast majority of the limited role players stay with the team and are happy just being part of the organization.

I wish you all could have a coach like we have,

This has been a good thread to learn from.

Being a coaches daughter I always like the good discipline stories (Thank you Frank!) because
in most cases the quidelines you establish, and then carry through on for your players, also establishes your credibility and earns you respect.

Before reading all the coaches responses here I was in favor of individual attention to address any personal issues. If I could pick this random example to explain....

Team strikes out too much and coach is not happy. Coach makes team run. Pitchers, of course, have had no at bats but are running anyway. The same could be said for a day when pitchers have walked too many batters and the TEAM is asked to run because of it.

Before this conversation I would have thought the hitters who did not hit should run OR the pitchers who issued the BB should run, but maybe not both. Looking at this with new eyes after the dialouge.

Sorry Chill, I have to respond to your post. Even though I disagree with team discipline (and others have a right to disagree with me as well), I see no logic in
making a team run for striking out or issuing too many walks.

I honestly don't think the players are actually trying to fail in something they have been striving to accomplish their whole baseball careers.

Punishment/discipline should never be used as a tool to try to increase a players ability. If the team is striking out "too much" it's the coaches job to determine why
and instruct them properly so they will be more successful.

I saw a coach completely demoralize a third baseman because he disciplined him when
he would make an off-line throw to first base. Before the season was over the poor kid
was bouncing every throw to third and ended up giving up baseball.(true story).

Discipline/punishment should be used when a player intentionally breaks a rule or is
is insubordinate to a coach.

quote:

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Originally posted by id12pack:
Obviously Pic you are a very educated person. However, I feel you have never had to coach(or teach as you keep implying that we don't realize) a competitive team where your job depended on W's.
The "FUN" as you keep eluding to does not come from external stimuli. IT COMES FROM WITHIN. My desire to compete and make myself better is the source of my fun. How the coach choses to dicipline has no effect on my enjoyment of playing the game. The ONLY players I played with and the ones I now coach that EVER moaned about not having fun were/are the kids who weren't good enough to play or silver spoon kids.
I hate to bust you bubble but collegiate sports are not the same as sandlot baseball. If your son wants to just have fun them tell he we have a great intramural program. All kinds of activities designed for fun. If he wants to compete on a championship level tell him to get self motivated and realize that unless he's his own boss then he will be doing things the rest of his life that he doesn't want to do and may not find them FUN.
If he can't have fun by going out there and busting his tail, taking responsiblity for his actions, and doing the things I ask him to do(whether he(or you)agree with it)then I don't want him on my team and neither will a future employer.
This thread has me all worked up. The greatest team in the world, our armed forces, have the toughest coaches on the planet but yet they seem to work well as a unit. But hey, you're probably against them as well.
You're attitude, IMHO, is the reason we have so many soft, undisciplined kids today. Everybody wants to be patted on the back and told it's ok, you'll get'em next time....this is ridiculous...

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ID

In your opening paragraph you make an assumption from reading my post here that is misrepresentative of my philosophy on discipline and punishment.

The best I can do is reveal how I have disciplined and punished teams that I have coached as well, specifically, my son who plays baseball.

I keep it as simple as possible. The questions I always ask a player after an infraction of the rules are:

(1) Do you understand that you have violated a rule that all of us are bound to live and work by on this team?

(2) At the time you committed the offense were you aware that you had broken a rule of the team?

(3) Did you do it deliberately or are there extenuating circumstances that you would like to offer that might explain your behavior?

(4) Now that you understand that you committed an infraction and have explained your behavior, what do you think the coaches and your teammates should expect from you to restore yourself in good standing with them?

(5) If you were the coach of this team how would you handle this situation?

(6) Are you willing to stand in front of the team and apologize for what you've done?

(7) Are you willing to accept punishment for what you've done?

(8) Would you like to run off your punishment, or accept a job which is assigned to you to complete on behalf of the team?

(9) Or if necessary, because of the severity of the infraction I must ask you to turn in your uniform. (This would be the most severe punishment and would require meetings with the board and the parents.)

(10) Finally since you have committed an infraction you will be placed on probation for the next ____ games (insert a number) and will not start or play.

You see I believe in rewarding success, which I have done with my teams and my son, and I have run them through additional practices when they have failed. And I alway make sure to run the practice so that it ends or a success and not a failure of execution.

But never have I ever punished a team because they lost, or because they didn't hit or didn't pitch up to my expectations. Never have I done things like running them or making them do extra PT as a punitive measure. That feeds the negative component of their psyche and is not productive. After a loss I do not want them to feel bad about themselves, but rather I want them to regain their confidence and reestablish their self-respect and self-image as worthy of the highest expectations of performance and behavior.

I cannot tell you how many times I have watched coaches after a game the team lost then go over every little negative play and error they made. I have seen coaches single out one player, in front of the team and blame that player for the team losing. I consider that a reason to "fire" a coach on the spot. This was one of the things that really drove me to remove my son from the NorCal program

Rather the approach after a lost is to tell the team how the coaches let them down by not preparing them properly and outlining what remedial steps will be taking over the next practices to help the team recover. That gives the team something to look forward to and helps them understand that the coaches are involved in the "future" of the players to help them get better.

It does no good to stand there and tell the team what is obvious to the players in the errors or missed opportunities in hitting or pitching. That is a waste of time.

To my way of thinking a player of baseball can only attain his maximum potential if he trust the coaches he is playing for. That can not be attained if the player is being denigrated for making mistakes, either in an individual sense, or collectively.

For this reason I have had to remove my son from programs that I felt were detrimental to his psychological development and his confidence even though they might be considered by others a great program...and that's why understanding hwo the differences in philosophies can impact a player or your son, and how to handle punishemnt and discipline are so important to the success of them.

UUUHHHHHHH....WOW!


(Fungo said we should use the emoticons more in expressing our feelings during the post)

Moc
It's okay.....
FTR, I agree with your posts on this subject.

Running is used by many coaches when games/level of play have been dissappointing.
Isn't that so?
Maybe the approach at the plate was undisciplined...maybe the pitcher's lacked focus in the coaches opinion?

These are not my rules, rather observations.
Each player is accountable and is expected to take care of the business they are assigned to
cover. Maybe coach senses the TEAM did not come ready to play...I agree that no one is ever in the game attempting to fail, but I do know there are days that kids don't show up. And, is that a mental lack of discipline that the coach may be addressing? Who knows.

I undestand what you are saying.
I dont have the answers but appreciate the views here by respected Coaches.

I can't take this seriously so I have to make jest of it:

PiC, You got me confused ...(that is a by-product of being ignorant).

Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. If you're a poor teacher you use punishment...if you're a teacher with tact and proper tools you use instruction and incentives.

I tried to envision your discussion with a player...I’ve put a make believe player on your team. He’s had a chance to read your philosophy on punishment and discipline. He’s made a mistake and has transgressed...You and this player are having a discussion:

You ask him “Did you do it deliberately or are there extenuating circumstances that you would like to offer that might explain your behavior?” “Why do you ask me that question coach Pic?? You already know the answer…I was BORED…” So what is it that causes a player to gain such a negative result as punishment or sanction?
The answer...boredom---better knwon as a breakdown in concentration and focus.

(8) Would you like to run off your punishment, or accept a job which is assigned to you to complete on behalf of the team? “Why would I accept running as a punishment coach? You and I both know that punishment is bad”: Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. “And Running? Golly coach PiC, You have said you don’t believe in running as a punishment?”
No you run kids because it is part of a scheduled routine as part of a physical fitness program which is monitored on a per player basis for improvement in lapsed times.

(6) Are you willing to stand in front of the team and apologize for what you've done? “Stand in front of a team? Come on coach..That is a no no..”Don't single people out for embarassment or putdowns in front of their peers. It works against team cohesion.

(9) Or if necessary, because of the severity of the infraction I must ask you to turn in your uniform. (This would be the most severe punishment and would require meetings with the board and the parents.) “Geez Coach PiC, what about your stand? Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching.
(10) Finally since you have committed an infraction you will be placed on probation for the next ____ games (insert a number) and will not start or play. “Whew, thanks Coach PiC, I was afraid you were going to punish me. I like these incentives and instructions”

(7) Are you willing to accept punishment for what you've done? “Punishment? You mean we are going to be punished? Please Coach PiC, what about our creed?”, Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching.

I like the way your concept of teaching carries over to adults...I can see the parent of a young player on your team that has recently moved to California ...
As a native born Californian, if I could I would send all the non-Californians back to their respective states where they come from...they have come here with their socialist cockimaime ideas and ruined what was once the great State Of California.

OK kids...lets all have fun and Play Ball!!
Fungo

PiC

Have you ever considered what psychological damage you do to your son because you pulled him from programs where YOU did not agree with the coach or his philosophies.

You sound like all the daddies that go off and start their own team so their Little Johnny is assured of playing all the time and in the position he wants to play.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fungo:
I can't take this seriously so I have to make jest of it:

PiC, You got me confused ...(that is a by-product of being ignorant).

_Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching. If you're a poor teacher you use punishment...if you're a teacher with tact and proper tools you use instruction and incentives._

I tried to envision your discussion with a player...I’ve put a make believe player on your team. He’s had a chance to read your philosophy on punishment and discipline. He’s made a mistake and has transgressed...You and this player are having a discussion:

You ask him _“Did you do it deliberately or are there extenuating circumstances that you would like to offer that might explain your behavior?” _ “Why do you ask me that question coach Pic?? You already know the answer…I was BORED…” _So what is it that causes a player to gain such a negative result as punishment or sanction?
The answer...boredom---better knwon as a breakdown in concentration and focus._

_(8) Would you like to run off your punishment, or accept a job which is assigned to you to complete on behalf of the team?_ “Why would I accept running as a punishment coach? You and I both know that punishment is bad”: _Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching._ “And Running? Golly coach PiC, You have said you don’t believe in running as a punishment?” _
No you run kids because it is part of a scheduled routine as part of a physical fitness program which is monitored on a per player basis for improvement in lapsed times._

_(6) Are you willing to stand in front of the team and apologize for what you've done?_ “Stand in front of a team? Come on coach..That is a no no..”_Don't single people out for embarassment or putdowns in front of their peers. It works against team cohesion._

_(9) Or if necessary, because of the severity of the infraction I must ask you to turn in your uniform. (This would be the most severe punishment and would require meetings with the board and the parents.)_ “Geez Coach PiC, what about your stand? _Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching._
_(10) Finally since you have committed an infraction you will be placed on probation for the next ____ games (insert a number) and will not start or play._ “Whew, thanks Coach PiC, I was afraid you were going to punish me. I like these incentives and instructions”

_(7) Are you willing to accept punishment for what you've done?_ “Punishment? You mean we are going to be punished? Please Coach PiC, what about our creed?”, _Discipline and punishment are negative teaching tools.
The proper method for teaching is using positive tools.
Coaching is teaching._

I like the way your concept of teaching carries over to adults...I can see the parent of a young player on your team that has recently moved to California ...
_As a native born Californian, if I could I would send all the non-Californians back to their respective states where they come from...they have come here with their socialist cockimaime ideas and ruined what was once the great State Of California._

OK kids...lets all have fun and Play Ball!!
Fungo

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You said: OK kids...lets all have fun and Play Ball!!

You got more out my post than I thought possible. You're smarter than you think. Now you understand the "reason" for baseball.

quote:

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Originally posted by TRhit:
PiC

Have you ever considered what psychological damage you do to your son because you pulled him from programs where YOU did not agree with the coach or his philosophies.

You sound like all the daddies that go off and start their own team so their Little Johnny is assured of playing all the time and in the position he wants to play.

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The answer to your question assumes that my son can't determine nor understand what a jerk is from a "real" coach, and be able do that for himself.

Just because it's baseball doesn't change the parameters of human relations. A jerk is a jerk whether you are a webster on the HSBBWEB yanking my chain all the time or a coach screaming at a kid on the baseball diamond making the kid feel like he would rather read a book than play baseball.