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I don't agree 100% with Pitching Fans post. 

Son had a chance to be drafted out of HS, but we, as college educated parents, wanted to him to have the college experience.  He did, and I would not have expected otherwise.  That experience included a lot more than just baseball. 

My opinion, if the coach has made specific rules regarding expectations, and they are not kept, then let the player go, no matter what his ability may be.  Sorry, but not every power 5 player is there to get drafted. Again, this falls on the HC, if he hasn't made it clear what he expects, why have more than 35 on your roster.

Everyone's journey is different.  Part of travel ball for some is also about a family vacation. Youth travel ball should be about baseball and having fun and sharing time with family. 

JMO

LOL oh my, been there done that, and feel the exact same. You did forget to list the pool party til midnight prior to the 8am elimination game though.

I can't tell you the number of times between then and now that I've left the park grumbling that not a dang player here REALLY REALLY wants to play the game, absent the swag and show and entitlement of it all.

And yes it continues right into college, high school, summer leagues, etc.

"To me it goes back to when we were younger playing travel.  Most families went to the tournament looking for what they could do.  We went to the tournament to play baseball.  I despised the parents that allowed their kid to go to the beach during a world series and get sunburned and not be able to play.  You are there for baseball not vacation.  But I knew I was in the minority.  We had a family that wanted to miss a pool play game at Disney for Elite 32 to go to the theme park.  I voted if they missed that game the kid was not allowed to play the rest of the tournament, but I was outvoted. "

 

You kiddin?  Youth travel ball sunburns, swim fatigue, unlimited dessert, wiffleball sore arms and video game hangovers were some of the best "lessons learned" for knowing better next time/next year when the stakes were raised ... and best memories. 

Took a young group to Vegas a few times around Halloween.  While walking around as a group, one of the coaches was arrested by the "naughty police".  Another trip, we stayed at a hotel with a Hooters restaurant... in the boys minds, they were staying at a strip club.  The waitresses played it up perfectly with hugs and group pics.  Memories they still talk about 15 yrs later.  Don't judge me 

When my son was younger, the pizza parties, the late nights hanging with teammates in somebody’s hotel room, going swimming with teammates, going to the beach on the way home from tournaments, touring the Colts’ stadium when we were in Indianapolis, those are the most fun memories he has of those years.  And my son is a hardcore “Baseball first” type of person.

Sure, there were the occasional big comeback wins over ranked teams he remembers, but in general the fun times with teammates were the things that stood.  Friendships made and kept.  I would have been a real dork to make my 11-15 year old kid miss out on that stuff.

Once he got to 16U, his coaches made it clear that their trips were about Baseball business, and things changed (and the Baseball got better). 

I'm with @cabbagedad on this one.  I'm not a fan of micromanaging/helicoptering the process.  Most of the best lessons and growth come from mistakes and failure - at any age.  What's more, for a young player to TRULY buy in to the lesson, he NEEDS to stub his toe first.  If your child has truly bought into theoretical lessons/toe stubs mandated down verbally by you, then you're the exception.  Buy a lottery ticket!  Me, I've yet to see a 10 year old boy say "you know what, father?  That's a wise piece of advice that I plan on following.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention."  Spoiler alert - if that's your kid, he's going be a CFO or a brain surgeon, not a ball player. 

As with anything in life, I think balance is key.  if you're traveling 100% only for baseball, you might be wound up too tight.  Especially if your child is 12 or younger.  My son is about as serious as you'll find.  Started playing 8U travel ball at age 7.  He's been obsessive about baseball since about age 4.  But he was also a 4 year old boy back then.  Later a an 8 year old boy.  So on and so forth.  You can allow your serious child ball player to be both a serious ball player and a child concurrently.  They're not mutually exclusive.  

Despised parents who didn't parent exactly as you do?  Seems a bit stringent to me.  In my mind, you may have been able to alleviate hard feelings by doing more homework up front.  Want a team full of parents and players that are just like you?  Then ask those hard questions upfront before signing on.  I don't have a problem to anyone who wants to be super strict and solely focused on baseball, but if that's the case, bring it up ahead of time.  Come to a consensus as a team.  Before you hop on a plane to Orlando with thousands of dollars in play.  Now, if all agreed ahead of time to lock things down tightly but broke their promises, that's a different story.

There's an age when mixing in fun makes perfect sense, and there's an age when you need to take care of business.  When my son was a rising junior his travel coach arranged private showcases at a bunch of SEC and Big 10 schools on a 10 day road trip to the school campuses.  Most of the players stayed in a couple houses arranged by the team... 15 teenagers per house, can you imagine?  Most of the kids were up all night playing video games and who knows what.  My son and I had a wedding to attend at the front end of the trip so I arranged to meet the team on the road and get a hotel near each school.  My son got great sleep every night.  He played great and really showed well...most of the other kids, not so much.

@DanJ posted:

... I've yet to see a 10 year old boy say "you know what, father?  That's a wise piece of advice that I plan on following.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention."  ...

I ain't knockin' any particular parenting style, personality, etc... I've seen them all work and I've seen them all fail.  But this here is funny !!!    

@cabbagedad posted:

 

Took a young group to Vegas a few times around Halloween.  While walking around as a group, one of the coaches was arrested by the "naughty police".  Another trip, we stayed at a hotel with a Hooters restaurant... in the boys minds, they were staying at a strip club.  The waitresses played it up perfectly with hugs and group pics.  Memories they still talk about 15 yrs later.  Don't judge me 

That's what I am talkin' about!!

I am posting this for anyone who is interested.  I am only posting the abstract and the conclusion to keep from taking up too much space.  This scholarly article points out a pretty big screw up in the early stages by the CDC, WHO and others in interchanging the terms "case fatality rate" and "infection fatality rate" while estimating future Covid deaths for the purpose of making policy.  Also included is a link to the entire article: 

https://www.cambridge.org/core...y_overestimation.pdf

Public health lessons learned from biases in coronavirus mortality overestimation


Ronald B. Brown, PhD


School of Public Health and Health Systems
University of Waterloo, Waterloo, ON N2L 3G1, Canada
r26brown@uwaterloo.ca


Abstract
In testimony before U.S. Congress on March 11, 2020, members of the House Oversight and
Reform Committee were informed that estimated mortality for the novel coronavirus was ten-
times higher than for seasonal influenza. Additional evidence, however, suggests the validity of
this estimation could benefit from vetting for biases and miscalculations. The main objective of
this article is to critically appraise the coronavirus mortality estimation presented to Congress.
Informational texts from the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention are compared with coronavirus mortality calculations in Congressional
testimony. Results of this critical appraisal reveal information bias and selection bias in
coronavirus mortality overestimation, most likely caused by misclassifying an influenza
infection fatality rate as a case fatality rate. Public health lessons learned for future infectious
disease pandemics include: safeguarding against research biases that may underestimate or
overestimate an associated risk of disease and mortality; reassessing the ethics of fear-based
public health campaigns; and providing full public disclosure of adverse effects from severe
mitigation measures to contain viral transmission.

Conclusion
Sampling bias in coronavirus mortality calculations led to a ten-fold increased mortality
overestimation in March 11, 2020 U.S. Congressional testimony. This bias most likely followed
from information bias due to misclassifying a seasonal influenza infection fatality rate as a case
fatality rate, evident in a NEJM.org editorial. Evidence from the World Health Organization
confirmed that the approximate case fatality rate of the coronavirus is generally no higher than
that of seasonal influenza. By early May, 2020, mortality levels from COVID-19 were
considerably below predicted overestimations, a result which the public attributed to successful
mitigating measures to contain the spread of the novel coronavirus.
This article presented important public health lessons learned from the COVID-19 pandemic. Reliable safeguards are needed in epidemiological research to prevent seemingly minor miscalculations from developing into disasters. Sufficient organizational quality assurance procedures should be implemented in public health institutions to check, catch, and correct research biases and mistakes that underestimate or overestimate associated risks of disease and mortality. Particularly, the denominator of fatality rates should clearly define the group to whom
fatalities apply. Public health campaigns based on fear can have harmful effects, and the ethics of
such campaigns should be reevaluated. People need to have a greater voice in a transparent process that influences public health policy during an outbreak, and educational curricula should include basic research methods to teach people how to be better consumers of public health information. The public should also be fully informed of the adverse impacts on psychological well-being, human rights issues, social disruption, and economic costs associated with restrictive public health interventions during a pandemic.
In closing, nations across the globe may fearfully anticipate future waves of the coronavirus
pandemic, and look bleakly toward outbreaks of other novel viral infections with a return to
severe mitigation measures. However, well-worn advice from a famous aphorism by the poet
philosopher George Santayana should be borne in mind, which is relevant to public health
lessons learned in this article: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat
it.”

Last edited by 22and25

I agree with what 3and2 stated.  The games are one thing (and why you are there and provide an opportunity to see new locations etc.) but the memories made with your teammates are what are really remembered.  When you hear guys retire from sports they typically don't talk about missing being on the mound or in the batters box, they talk about missing the locker room/clubhouse and their teammates and the bonding.  I think you can be both a hard core baseball guy on the field AND enjoy where you are and have a little fun along the way.

@TPM posted:

22and25,

Why? Why did you find the need to post that. 

I don't know about anyone else, but it's nice to come here and have a discussion that doesnt have the word COVID, virus, cases or pandemic in it.

 

I can only assume you are kidding given the thread title itself and the previous 6 pages of post....you are kidding, right?🤔

@TPM posted:

22and25,

Why? Why did you find the need to post that. 

I don't know about anyone else, but it's nice to come here and have a discussion that doesnt have the word COVID, virus, cases or pandemic in it.

 

I have to agree. We were just starting to have fun again. I for one have been boycotting the “news” and most social media since last Friday.  I am exhausted from it!  I know what I know. Not gonna change my mind. I need an effing break. 

Last edited by RoadRunner
@22and25 posted:

So we had one thread meant to contain the Covid discussion, titled "College Baseball and COVID", to keep Covid out of the other threads but now we can't discuss Covid in this thread? 

My bad😥

Sorry😐

I am just burned out. You have every right to post that. I’ll probably read through it carefully at some point. It’s just exhausting. Sorry. 

Last edited by RoadRunner
@RoadRunner posted:

Sorry😐

I am just burned out. You have every right to post that. I’ll probably read through it carefully at some point. It’s just exhausting. Sorry. 

As two of you posted the same reaction I was simply confused, not mad or upset.  I posted the article because I thought some would be interested in information that is not filtered by the media or presented through a political lense.  

@22and25 posted:

As two of you posted the same reaction I was simply confused, not mad or upset.  I posted the article because I thought some would be interested in information that is not filtered by the media or presented through a political lense.  

You are correct. I should be thankful. I’m serious tho. I had to remove myself. Has nothing to do with you. My issue☮️

@22and25 posted:

As two of you posted the same reaction I was simply confused, not mad or upset.  I posted the article because I thought some would be interested in information that is not filtered by the media or presented through a political lense.  

Topic was about college baseball and COVID. 

Didn't belong in the overall discussion (did you read any of the topic?

Just appears that you were trying to change the narrative.  

 

 

@TPM posted:

Topic was about college baseball and COVID. 

Didn't belong in the overall discussion (did you read any of the topic?

Just appears that you were trying to change the narrative.  

 

 

I have participated in the thread and yes I have read it.  The discussion of kids partying and spreading the virus, games being bumped due to infections, etc is very relevant to the article I posted.  The policies that impact "College Baseball and Covid" are the direct result of the data mixup discussed in the article.  Basically an infection does not equal a case is at the heart of public policy and public behavior of these student athletes.  It's also at the heart of the fear a lot of us parents feel as our kids are off at school or on the field.  Regardless if the article validates your bias or conflicts with it, it's relevant because we are all impacted by its conclusions.  If true, it could also determine how quickly we go back to normal...or not.

My kid missed the opportunity to play in front of college coaches this summer because of Covid policy.  If that policy was based on error in data that drove poor policy I want it known and corrected.....asap.  lifting the dead period would be a good start....

 

 

Last edited by 22and25

Danj, we had played together for several years.  This one family was the problem all the time.  Would not show up for tournaments for various reasons.  We had agreed as parents on both occasions that all extra activities would happen after the world series.  Stay after we are done playing and do your family stuff.  Don't go to the beach except in moderation.  To me it is not parenting style but RESPECT.  When 13 parents have paid thousands of dollars to go to a World Series at the beach or at Disney, you respect the other families and make wise decisions.  Go to the pool, but never before you play.  Find things to do as a family and a team but not that interfere with the games.  Do stuff at night but make sure your player goes to bed at a reasonable time if you have an early game.   Be at the field 1 hour before game time no matter how early it is.  I don't see any of that as parenting style but respect for others.  I think the same thing plays out with colleges right now.  It comes down to respecting your teammates and seeing that you may have to do without some things so that you and others get to play baseball.  No different than in other areas of life right now.  I think we have lost a true respect for our military, police, and in general others.  RESPECT is one of the things I learned growing up in rural America and it seems to be slowly going out the window.  You could say "There is no I in RESPECT."

For sure, students have lost respect for college administrators.  I'd guess the reason young people are going to parties and not following mask rules is that ever since the drinking age went up to 21, young people have been told that it is illegal to drink, but there have been few attempts to actually enforce it.  If you have laws that are not enforced, that tells people, of all political persuasions and backgrounds, that if you don't like a law, you don't have to follow it.  Maybe if colleges had previously suspended students for underage drinking, the way they are doing for partying during COVID, there would actually have been less drinking.  Fraternities are being blamed for COVID spread, but they were always known for being blatant about drinking, and mostly getting away with it.

PF, my question would be, were there consequences for that one family that didn't take baseball as seriously as the rest of the team?  Did the kid get less playing time?

In the sunburn case, it took care of itself but it affected the entire team.  Kid was so sunburnt that he could not play.  Had to go to hospital but the problem was he was the #2 pitcher so he could not pitch his scheduled game.   The family that chose Disney over playing, the parents voted and it was very close but their closest friends voted for him to be able to play even though they were mad they did it.  It was a friend of the coach which is why he had stayed so long with the team and he continued to play as a backup which is what he had been all the time.  It was the principle of the fact that we had worked hard all year to qualify for Elite 32 in Disney and then a family chose to throw all that out the window and miss the final pool play game which determined who made bracket.  There answer was he was not a starter so who cares.  I saw it as a respect thing for the other players and families. 

I'm with anotherparent and it is funny that they are treating Covid with a different set of rules than they have illegal parties for years.  How is Covid spread worse than illegal drinking?  Don't want to get off on a tangent but cities and states are more concerned with not wearing a mask in a store than they are the ones burning down stores.

For sure, students have lost respect for college administrators.  I'd guess the reason young people are going to parties and not following mask rules is that ever since the drinking age went up to 21, young people have been told that it is illegal to drink, but there have been few attempts to actually enforce it.  If you have laws that are not enforced, that tells people, of all political persuasions and backgrounds, that if you don't like a law, you don't have to follow it.  Maybe if colleges had previously suspended students for underage drinking, the way they are doing for partying during COVID, there would actually have been less drinking.  Fraternities are being blamed for COVID spread, but they were always known for being blatant about drinking, and mostly getting away with it.

The reason they turned a blind eye to underage drinking and not covid IMO is due to the bad press they get. 

Of course, the obvious question is, do players have respect for their coaches?  Do they not believe the coaches when they tell them not to party?  Whose fault is that?

I think it depends on the program.  There was a huge outbreak among the football team here due to the hurricane.  That actually tells me that they were doing a good job before their lives got turned somewhat upside down (losing power for a week, and having to shelter with others... the virus did take a backseat to that). 

So it's not baseball, but I'm watching Iowa State football on TV. They had originally planned to have 25,000 people in the stands but being first in the nation for per capita cases (now third) kind of put the kabosh on that. They do have about 2,000 people at game, including band, cheerleaders, families of players and a limited number of tickets given to athletic department staff. I'll be interested to see how that plays out, but nice to see families actually get the chance to see their kids play if they want to.

@Iowamom23 posted:

So it's not baseball, but I'm watching Iowa State football on TV. They had originally planned to have 25,000 people in the stands but being first in the nation for per capita cases (now third) kind of put the kabosh on that. They do have about 2,000 people at game, including band, cheerleaders, families of players and a limited number of tickets given to athletic department staff. I'll be interested to see how that plays out, but nice to see families actually get the chance to see their kids play if they want to.

Good for them not to back out. FAU game cancelled due to Georgia Southern canceling.

I watched UM the other night and now watching conference CUSA UNC v App St. Can't wait for Clemson game, go Tigers.

Kind of gives you a sense of things being  a little normal.

Interested to see what B10 will do going forward.

@TPM posted:

Good for them not to back out. FAU game cancelled due to Georgia Southern canceling.

I watched UM the other night and now watching conference CUSA UNC v App St. Can't wait for Clemson game, go Tigers.

Kind of gives you a sense of things being  a little normal.

Interested to see what B10 will do going forward.

Well, after taking a 31-14 loss, it might have been better if ISU had cancelled. I am curious where the Big10 will go, although I have to admit I'm selfish and I mostly care that they get football worked out so we can start to think about how baseball might work.

@TPM posted:

I don't agree 100% with Pitching Fans post. 

Son had a chance to be drafted out of HS, but we, as college educated parents, wanted to him to have the college experience.  He did, and I would not have expected otherwise.  That experience included a lot more than just baseball. 

My opinion, if the coach has made specific rules regarding expectations, and they are not kept, then let the player go, no matter what his ability may be.  Sorry, but not every power 5 player is there to get drafted. Again, this falls on the HC, if he hasn't made it clear what he expects, why have more than 35 on your roster.

Everyone's journey is different.  Part of travel ball for some is also about a family vacation. Youth travel ball should be about baseball and having fun and sharing time with family. 

JMO

been out of town for a bit and just back in the office where I catch up...on my reading. I can't believe I am typing this but generally speaking I agree!! TPM this might be a first but well said! 

Of course, the obvious question is, do players have respect for their coaches?  Do they not believe the coaches when they tell them not to party?  Whose fault is that?

perhaps the coaches should stop winking when they tell them that!! 

Honestly the morality police are out of control here, drinking and college - traditional, generational, inseparable...get of your glass houses folks and look at what you are saying. 

This is to a large degree political, even at the very best programs most players aren't going to be professional...I don't count MiLB or indy because if you cant afford to move out of mom basement and need a winter job to survive you ain't a real pro. Work hard, play hard enjoy the college experience. 

Oh BTW go talk to some career minor leaguers and see what life was like on the road. 

Last edited by old_school

Do you know how wrong this sounds when it is written or said?   "Let guys be guys."  They are HS or college kids so they are gonna drink and smoke a little pot and have sex and ....  It does not have to be that way.  I don't live in a glass house partly because I have/had expectations.  My older two are grown men on their own so they can make their own choices but I'm glad to hear every now and then that their choices are good ones.  Overheard my 30 year old tell one of his friends who is struggling with alcoholism the other day that if you never take a sip you don't have deal with that problem.  The guy laughed and said no way you have never drank.  Son, who didn't know I was listening, said never touched it.  That's how I was raised.  When coaches and parents tell their kids it is ok to break the law then what can we expect as a society for our nation to be like. 

@PitchingFan posted:

Do you know how wrong this sounds when it is written or said?   "Let guys be guys."  They are HS or college kids so they are gonna drink and smoke a little pot and have sex and ....  It does not have to be that way.  I don't live in a glass house partly because I have/had expectations.  My older two are grown men on their own so they can make their own choices but I'm glad to hear every now and then that their choices are good ones.  Overheard my 30 year old tell one of his friends who is struggling with alcoholism the other day that if you never take a sip you don't have deal with that problem.  The guy laughed and said no way you have never drank.  Son, who didn't know I was listening, said never touched it.  That's how I was raised.  When coaches and parents tell their kids it is ok to break the law then what can we expect as a society for our nation to be like. 

well I will stand with my statement of generational, I didn't mention, infer or say a thing about pot, just for the record.

If you believe 18 to 22 year old student athletes blowing off some steam during down times with some booze and chasing tail around good ol state U  is the reason for societal failures...hmm we probably don't have much more to discuss. 

Those kids in past generations fought world wars...while drinking, smoking and chasing tail all over Europe and SE Asia...but now it is going to ruin us?

Maybe just maybe we will all die from Covid before the fall of western society. 

I didn't say they were the problem I said "the mentality of let them do what they want to do even if it is illegal" is the problem.  They are not the problem it is those who allow it or encourage it is the problem.  It is governors, mayors, parents, and others in authority that say do what you want to do even if it is wrong is the problem.  The "boys will be boys" or kids will be kids or whatever mentality you want to call it is the problem.  The kids that are taught right and wrong and consequences are different. 

I would disagree with your other statement about the past generation.  Most of them were good men and did the right thing or there were consequences.  No trophies for everyone and I can guarantee you back in their day if somebody burnt down a building or dragged someone out of a car on the street there would be punishment not it's okay that is just this next generation.  That's how they are.  So I'm good with their way of life. 

@PitchingFan posted:

I didn't say they were the problem I said "the mentality of let them do what they want to do even if it is illegal" is the problem.  They are not the problem it is those who allow it or encourage it is the problem.  It is governors, mayors, parents, and others in authority that say do what you want to do even if it is wrong is the problem.  The "boys will be boys" or kids will be kids or whatever mentality you want to call it is the problem.  The kids that are taught right and wrong and consequences are different. 

I would disagree with your other statement about the past generation.  Most of them were good men and did the right thing or there were consequences.  No trophies for everyone and I can guarantee you back in their day if somebody burnt down a building or dragged someone out of a car on the street there would be punishment not it's okay that is just this next generation.  That's how they are.  So I'm good with their way of life. 

Bolded I totally agree with you, not sure how we got from college kids acting like college kids to where you are but I think we agree kinda. 

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