Come to think of it, I didn't start watching golf until Tiger either.
Catfish,
Come to think of it, I didn't start watching golf until Tiger either.
Come to think of it, I didn't start watching golf until Tiger either.
quote:Why are they not playing the game with their sons in larger numbers? Probably because football and basketball are easier games to learn and dominate is my guess.
It is an easier track to the $$
Tiger Woods is perhaps the perfect individual for some of the discussions in this thread. As far as I know, everyone on the planet who has started to follow golf or has followed golf, watches because of Tiger Woods. He has no peers in any sport and he is obviously smart enough to matriculate at Stanford.
Same token, I am facinated by some of the commentary. For sake of discussion, Catfish - did you mean to imply that the only reason your wife now follows golf was because a black player was having success, or did you mean she simply was overwhelmed by his ability and that is what garnered her interest?
igball - I am not sure what easy has to do with it. Perhaps more African-American youth prefer football and basketball for no other reason than they prefer football and basketball
Back to Tiger Woods, he is the most interesting and transcendent of sports figures. Many people in America root for the underdog no matter what the sport because it makes for a better emotional story. With Tiger, he is ALWAYS the favorite, yet I am guessing that 99% of the people are rooting for him regardless.
Same token, I am facinated by some of the commentary. For sake of discussion, Catfish - did you mean to imply that the only reason your wife now follows golf was because a black player was having success, or did you mean she simply was overwhelmed by his ability and that is what garnered her interest?
igball - I am not sure what easy has to do with it. Perhaps more African-American youth prefer football and basketball for no other reason than they prefer football and basketball
Back to Tiger Woods, he is the most interesting and transcendent of sports figures. Many people in America root for the underdog no matter what the sport because it makes for a better emotional story. With Tiger, he is ALWAYS the favorite, yet I am guessing that 99% of the people are rooting for him regardless.
Along these lines....Didn't the sport of basketball really become popular because of Michael Jordan???? I don't recall it being as big as it is now before MJ.
quote:Originally posted by play baseball:
Along these lines....Didn't the sport of basketball really become popular because of Michael Jordan???? I don't recall it being as big as it is now before MJ.
then you are very young
Big O
Lew
Russell
Wilt
Hawkins
DRJ
Elgin
Macmillen
Wes
Clyde Frazieeeeer
Dickie B
Willis Reed
Lenny Wilkens
****just to name a few
I think that Tiger has done more for his sport than any other athlete has done. Not because he is black but because he is a master. For anyone who has tried to get that little white ball in a little black hole you can appreciate that. 
And a professional who found success early and still conducts himself as a professional.
For me that's what it's all about, not a black or white or latin or whatever thing. I don't care what sport you play and the color of your skin, but if you are a professional and conduct yourself as such.
JMO.
And a professional who found success early and still conducts himself as a professional.For me that's what it's all about, not a black or white or latin or whatever thing. I don't care what sport you play and the color of your skin, but if you are a professional and conduct yourself as such.
JMO.
quote:then you are very young
Oh, bless your heart...
Actually, I do know some of the names that you mentioned---I guess what I mean is the whole MARKETING aspect of basketball and Michael Jordan-- “I want to be like Mike”, The Jordan Rules by Sam Smith, Nike, etc....Michael Jordan even starred in a MOVIE, for heaven's sake! So although the basketball players that you mentioned were stars, I think that Michael Jordan became a star exponentially and brought the sport and the money up with him.
Catfish, Surely you weren't stereotyping me by accusing "most of us" as stereotyping black as "poor" blacks from the inner-city when that is not the case at all. Give "us" a little more credit than that. It's about the black race choosing to participate in other activities instead of baseball. It's not about poor or rich --- I see more money tied up in BMWs, 22" wheels and pigment shifting paint jobs at all black pick up basketball games than I do in cars and trucks (with Gumbo Mudders and camo seat-covers) at mostly white HS baseball games. It's just different strokes for different folks. How can it be a problem if a black athlete wants to play basketball, golf, baseball, football, track, or not play any sports and choose to get a job or pursue an education? Maybe a business man/woman that relies on baseball for their revenue may declare it a problem because they see an untapped revenue source in the black population ---- or a maybe racist may look ONLY at the color of the participants and proclaim there HAS to be a problem because the racial ratio of the town/state/world is not reflected in the roster of a particular sport.
My wife being a University of Memphis alum loves Memphis basketball. I had never noticed before but Memphis doesn't have any white players --- who cares --- I don't care what color they are, if you like good basketball you need to watch.
Fungo
My wife being a University of Memphis alum loves Memphis basketball. I had never noticed before but Memphis doesn't have any white players --- who cares --- I don't care what color they are, if you like good basketball you need to watch.
Fungo
Fungo...Had I said "all of you" then I certainly would have been guilty of stereotyping in this instance. All of you did not engage in stereotyping, but many of you did on this subject. And you, Fungo, in particular, continue to stereotype by saying that the black race chooses to participate in other activities instead of baseball, which is simply not true. Fungo, I honestly gave you more credit than that. Come on now, the whole Black race chooses not to participate in baseball? Do you really believe that? And when you talk about the automobile preferences of blacks and whites, you are mixing apples and oranges. Your example has to do with black and white people choosing to spend their money as they please. How this relates to Blacks and baseball escapes me.
ClevelandDad...I'm try to explain myself. However, I will not be offended if you don't understand where I'm coming from. When you were not legally allowed on a golf course until you were almost grown, as we were, there was no way to appreciate the game. One of the things that is nearly impossible to do is play a decent game of golf in a small wooded field as we did with baseball. It's also hard to drive a golf ball with a two by four plank. You should try it sometimes. It's hard. When we did sneak onto the golf course, all we saw were a bunch of white men and women playing golf. No one looked like us on the golf course except the caddy. However, when Tiger came along there was new excitement about the game of golf. For us, Tiger was someone I could point to with my children and grandchildren and say to them, "you" can play golf and have them BELIEVE me. Tiger did that for us. Because of Tiger, many more young Black boys and girls are learning to play golf.
Guys, there will be subjects like this on which we will not be able to agree. I have voluntarily assumed the role of an "enlightener." When the opportunity presents itself, I try to enlighten people. I don't contribute when you all talk about linear hitting and pitching mechanics because that is not my area of expertise. When you all get into those discussions, I listen to you all and I learn. On the other hand, I do know about human behavior and how we can better communicate and interact in this changing society. I also know that a man convinced against his will is not convinced. I can only state what I believe to be fair and true, and I can only reveal but so much of my soul. It matters not to me if what I say is not believed. What works for me is the fact that we can talk about it in a civil manner. Keep it going.
ClevelandDad...I'm try to explain myself. However, I will not be offended if you don't understand where I'm coming from. When you were not legally allowed on a golf course until you were almost grown, as we were, there was no way to appreciate the game. One of the things that is nearly impossible to do is play a decent game of golf in a small wooded field as we did with baseball. It's also hard to drive a golf ball with a two by four plank. You should try it sometimes. It's hard. When we did sneak onto the golf course, all we saw were a bunch of white men and women playing golf. No one looked like us on the golf course except the caddy. However, when Tiger came along there was new excitement about the game of golf. For us, Tiger was someone I could point to with my children and grandchildren and say to them, "you" can play golf and have them BELIEVE me. Tiger did that for us. Because of Tiger, many more young Black boys and girls are learning to play golf.
Guys, there will be subjects like this on which we will not be able to agree. I have voluntarily assumed the role of an "enlightener." When the opportunity presents itself, I try to enlighten people. I don't contribute when you all talk about linear hitting and pitching mechanics because that is not my area of expertise. When you all get into those discussions, I listen to you all and I learn. On the other hand, I do know about human behavior and how we can better communicate and interact in this changing society. I also know that a man convinced against his will is not convinced. I can only state what I believe to be fair and true, and I can only reveal but so much of my soul. It matters not to me if what I say is not believed. What works for me is the fact that we can talk about it in a civil manner. Keep it going.
Hey everyone, let's be a little honest here. Hopefully, we can all agree that a baseball owner would pick the finest players, whether black, white, or green. Branch Rickey did, and when he and Jackie Robinson were done the face of baseball changed for the better. Baseball became a sport where the best players took the field.
PG's lament rings true to me, because if baseball has lost a huge segment of the population, regardless of reason this is a loss for baseball.
Now, I'm hearing Catfish in one ear and Fungo in the other. Catfish mentioned that black youth coaches may not be as qualified, giving the white kids an advantage. As a result, he says college coaches tend to ignore the black player. Fungo says it is rather a choice made by the black players and their parents who choose other sports over baseball.
(If I'm paraphrazing either of you incorrectly, my apologies!)
Well, Catfish.. of course a college coach would pick the MOST TALENTED KID. His job is to win baseball games! I don't think most college coaches would give a lick about the color of a player. His job is not social-engineering, trying to figure out WHY there are fewer black kids in the sport. His job is to win! I think we can let the college coach off the hook for this aspect of the scenario.
I think a big part of the reason there are so few blacks in baseball is the lack of role models. It's not a racial thing--kids have a natural proclivity to be around other kids like themselves--if the baseball team is completely white, he may feel the odd man out. So here you have it.. his choice may be between football and 2,000 screaming fans and cheerleaders on an action-packed Friday night, or being a black third-baseman on an otherwise all-white baseball team with 50 all-white fans in attendance at 4:00 in the afternoon on a Tuesday.
Has the quality of baseball dropped off because of lack of black participation? Perhaps, perhaps not. I think the game at the highest level is better than ever because of specialization, year-round training, international participation, and improved diet and injury treatment. Having said that, it could be even better if more black kids participated.
No one's suggesting a quota. I'm not. But what's wrong with encouraging participation in a sport? Marketing a sport to a segment of the population? Nike does it. I do it as a businessman. It promotes and improves the game.
PG's lament rings true to me, because if baseball has lost a huge segment of the population, regardless of reason this is a loss for baseball.
Now, I'm hearing Catfish in one ear and Fungo in the other. Catfish mentioned that black youth coaches may not be as qualified, giving the white kids an advantage. As a result, he says college coaches tend to ignore the black player. Fungo says it is rather a choice made by the black players and their parents who choose other sports over baseball.
(If I'm paraphrazing either of you incorrectly, my apologies!)
Well, Catfish.. of course a college coach would pick the MOST TALENTED KID. His job is to win baseball games! I don't think most college coaches would give a lick about the color of a player. His job is not social-engineering, trying to figure out WHY there are fewer black kids in the sport. His job is to win! I think we can let the college coach off the hook for this aspect of the scenario.
I think a big part of the reason there are so few blacks in baseball is the lack of role models. It's not a racial thing--kids have a natural proclivity to be around other kids like themselves--if the baseball team is completely white, he may feel the odd man out. So here you have it.. his choice may be between football and 2,000 screaming fans and cheerleaders on an action-packed Friday night, or being a black third-baseman on an otherwise all-white baseball team with 50 all-white fans in attendance at 4:00 in the afternoon on a Tuesday.
Has the quality of baseball dropped off because of lack of black participation? Perhaps, perhaps not. I think the game at the highest level is better than ever because of specialization, year-round training, international participation, and improved diet and injury treatment. Having said that, it could be even better if more black kids participated.
No one's suggesting a quota. I'm not. But what's wrong with encouraging participation in a sport? Marketing a sport to a segment of the population? Nike does it. I do it as a businessman. It promotes and improves the game.
Bum...You make some excellent points. Of course, colleges should recruit and field the best players. But Joe Morgan said it best: "If you are not looking for good Black baseball players, you won't find them.
Blacks want to play baseball, role models or not. But when they look beyond high school, they see nothing.
Blacks want to play baseball, role models or not. But when they look beyond high school, they see nothing.
quote:Joe Morgan said it best: "If you are not looking for good Black baseball players, you won't find them.
Joe is probably right. And if they are not looking for the Latino or good white players, they probably would not find them either. I hope and feel confident, regardless of skin color, they are looking for the best baseball players period!
Bum,
That is what it's all about IMO. Very well said!
It's about the game itself being as good as it can possibly be. It's that simple.
How to make that happen? That is the difficult part.
If we had no history to draw from, there would be no reason for us to believe the game would be much better if there were more black players. However, we do have that history to draw from. We should know that the game would be better.
That is what it's all about IMO. Very well said!
It's about the game itself being as good as it can possibly be. It's that simple.
How to make that happen? That is the difficult part.
If we had no history to draw from, there would be no reason for us to believe the game would be much better if there were more black players. However, we do have that history to draw from. We should know that the game would be better.
Well stated Bum. At the risk of starting a firestorm, I don't know that I agree that "the game would be much better if there were more black players". The unstated parenthetical is "because they are better athletes".
It was a horrendous shame that black players were banned until Mr. Rickey came along, but nobody is banned these days. I also don't think anyone is "effectively banned" by any circumstances other than personal choice. Growing up in an area dominated by other sports surely has an influence, but it still comes down to personal choice. A lot of good and logical reasons have already been posted for the perceived lack of black players, no need to re-hash them here.
Despite anyone's level of athleticism, black, white, yellow, or green, baseball has always impressed me as a sport where sometimes an extreme work ethic can get an athlete to a higher, and sometimes the highest, levels, something realistically not possible in football and basketball. Every sport rewards extremely hard work and practice, but I think baseball is the one sport where hard work is best able to compensate, to an extent, for a lack of a high level of raw athletic talent. While extra work won't turn an 82 mph fastball into a 95 mph heater, it will turn an average fielder into something better, an average base runner into something better, and will visibly improve a hitter. Truly talented athletes will always be in a better position to excel (Hello Bo Jackson), in any sport, but baseball surely doesn't lack for "athletes".
We are not in the 1950's where there's a whole separate league out there that would beat the pants off of some MLB teams, if only given the chance. I would love to see someday a color-blind society. We've come a long way but we're not there yet and won't be in my lifetime. All we can do is to all do our part, perhaps follow the "WWJD" wristband advice. While I was thrilled to see the games on ESPN (although starting the second game at 11:00 p.m. wasn't much for us southeastern old-timers), it did get tiresome to hear the announcers go on and on and on about trying to attract black athletes....while watching one team that looked 75% latino, and both teams playing very well with lots of talent, without regard to color.
I'd like to see every kid play baseball that wants to, and wonderfully fun neighborhood pickup games are indeed possible, if parents quit trying to structure everything to death, and forget trying to project t-ballers into MLB talent. When I was a kid, we had gloves, an often repaired bat or two, baseballs that were used until the cover wore off, and then we taped them with duct tape and got a few more games out of them. We played an awful lot of baseball. We had tons of fun all summer long. Nobody got to play in college or the pros, but we sure had fun. If kids have the chance to play the game, and have fun, which can happen without lots of money, the game will be just fine.
I saw the second greatest catch of my life over the weekend, second only to Mays in the '54 series. The centerfielder for North Carolina Wesleyan, Matt Smith, starting from dead centerfield, broke on the crack of the bat for left field where a monster high deep shot had just been hit. The left fielder, playing normal left field position, lost the ball in the sun. Smith on a dead sprint caught the ball behind the leftfielder on the warning track. It doesn't look even humanly possible for an outfielder to go that far for a baseball. Matt Smith is 5'9", 150. It took speed, which he has lots of, but also desire, extreme effort, and heart, to get to and catch that ball. Being an "athlete' was part of the equation, but only a part.
It was a horrendous shame that black players were banned until Mr. Rickey came along, but nobody is banned these days. I also don't think anyone is "effectively banned" by any circumstances other than personal choice. Growing up in an area dominated by other sports surely has an influence, but it still comes down to personal choice. A lot of good and logical reasons have already been posted for the perceived lack of black players, no need to re-hash them here.
Despite anyone's level of athleticism, black, white, yellow, or green, baseball has always impressed me as a sport where sometimes an extreme work ethic can get an athlete to a higher, and sometimes the highest, levels, something realistically not possible in football and basketball. Every sport rewards extremely hard work and practice, but I think baseball is the one sport where hard work is best able to compensate, to an extent, for a lack of a high level of raw athletic talent. While extra work won't turn an 82 mph fastball into a 95 mph heater, it will turn an average fielder into something better, an average base runner into something better, and will visibly improve a hitter. Truly talented athletes will always be in a better position to excel (Hello Bo Jackson), in any sport, but baseball surely doesn't lack for "athletes".
We are not in the 1950's where there's a whole separate league out there that would beat the pants off of some MLB teams, if only given the chance. I would love to see someday a color-blind society. We've come a long way but we're not there yet and won't be in my lifetime. All we can do is to all do our part, perhaps follow the "WWJD" wristband advice. While I was thrilled to see the games on ESPN (although starting the second game at 11:00 p.m. wasn't much for us southeastern old-timers), it did get tiresome to hear the announcers go on and on and on about trying to attract black athletes....while watching one team that looked 75% latino, and both teams playing very well with lots of talent, without regard to color.
I'd like to see every kid play baseball that wants to, and wonderfully fun neighborhood pickup games are indeed possible, if parents quit trying to structure everything to death, and forget trying to project t-ballers into MLB talent. When I was a kid, we had gloves, an often repaired bat or two, baseballs that were used until the cover wore off, and then we taped them with duct tape and got a few more games out of them. We played an awful lot of baseball. We had tons of fun all summer long. Nobody got to play in college or the pros, but we sure had fun. If kids have the chance to play the game, and have fun, which can happen without lots of money, the game will be just fine.
I saw the second greatest catch of my life over the weekend, second only to Mays in the '54 series. The centerfielder for North Carolina Wesleyan, Matt Smith, starting from dead centerfield, broke on the crack of the bat for left field where a monster high deep shot had just been hit. The left fielder, playing normal left field position, lost the ball in the sun. Smith on a dead sprint caught the ball behind the leftfielder on the warning track. It doesn't look even humanly possible for an outfielder to go that far for a baseball. Matt Smith is 5'9", 150. It took speed, which he has lots of, but also desire, extreme effort, and heart, to get to and catch that ball. Being an "athlete' was part of the equation, but only a part.
As far as black participation in baseball goes, its important to understand that by all accounts there are two black America's: an underclass society which has far more problems than baseballs and bats could ever solve; and a very large well functioning middle class society. Our discussion is best suited for the latter group.
Regarding developing programs for middle class black families to encourage their sons to play the game, I think it is ridiculous and probably racist at its core to even think about such programs. Point of reference: my son goes to a private integrated high school in Chicago and on his basketball team is a black next door neighbor and good friend of Barak Obama's kids. His parents are both doctors, intelligent and wealthy. This kid doesn't play baseball and just think how patronizing (and yes at its core racist) it would be to try and instruct and encourage these parents to have their son play baseball. For the fool who tried to persuade them their response would no doubt be: "relax, he likes basketball."
There exists within our society (and encouraged and reinforced on our college campuses) an entitlement and victim mentality that is very destructive to the very people these programs are purportedly trying to "help". These proposals are another example of this dying patronizing philosophy.
Regarding developing programs for middle class black families to encourage their sons to play the game, I think it is ridiculous and probably racist at its core to even think about such programs. Point of reference: my son goes to a private integrated high school in Chicago and on his basketball team is a black next door neighbor and good friend of Barak Obama's kids. His parents are both doctors, intelligent and wealthy. This kid doesn't play baseball and just think how patronizing (and yes at its core racist) it would be to try and instruct and encourage these parents to have their son play baseball. For the fool who tried to persuade them their response would no doubt be: "relax, he likes basketball."
There exists within our society (and encouraged and reinforced on our college campuses) an entitlement and victim mentality that is very destructive to the very people these programs are purportedly trying to "help". These proposals are another example of this dying patronizing philosophy.
PGStaff, Bum, thats-a-balk, hokieone, and igball...Good points all around.
I guess the disconnect for me in this whole debate is the perception that Blacks have to be persuaded to play baseball. In my world, nothing could be further from the truth.
I can only speak about the part of the country in which I live. In the Atlanta Metropolitan area (Fulton, Dekalb, Gwinnette, Cobb, Newton and Henry counties), which has one of the largest populations of middle to upper class Blacks in the country, Black boys don't have to be persuaded to play baseball. Our recreational parks are filled with Black baseball players. However, some of them who are super studs in the other sports like football and basketball may have to be persuaded to STAY in baseball once they reach high school. Why? Because, although they may be great in baseball, they feel that their future is limited in baseball as far as College and the MLB are concerned. Why do they think that their future is limited? Because they don't see many people who look like them in the college and pro ranks. Case in point: The game on ESPN2 the other night! If you are a Black baseball player looking for a scholarship, and you are also great in football and/or basketball, where would you focus your energy? After conducting your research and looking at football, basketball and baseball teams all over this nation, where would you focus your energy? Go ahead...answer that. I can't explain it any better than that.
So, where I work and play, there is no shortage of Black baseball players who are good. We don't need a separate developing program to encourage our sons to play. What we need is for college recruiters and the MLB to recognize that they are there and act accordingly. Geez, Guys, I don't know what else to say.
I guess the disconnect for me in this whole debate is the perception that Blacks have to be persuaded to play baseball. In my world, nothing could be further from the truth.
I can only speak about the part of the country in which I live. In the Atlanta Metropolitan area (Fulton, Dekalb, Gwinnette, Cobb, Newton and Henry counties), which has one of the largest populations of middle to upper class Blacks in the country, Black boys don't have to be persuaded to play baseball. Our recreational parks are filled with Black baseball players. However, some of them who are super studs in the other sports like football and basketball may have to be persuaded to STAY in baseball once they reach high school. Why? Because, although they may be great in baseball, they feel that their future is limited in baseball as far as College and the MLB are concerned. Why do they think that their future is limited? Because they don't see many people who look like them in the college and pro ranks. Case in point: The game on ESPN2 the other night! If you are a Black baseball player looking for a scholarship, and you are also great in football and/or basketball, where would you focus your energy? After conducting your research and looking at football, basketball and baseball teams all over this nation, where would you focus your energy? Go ahead...answer that. I can't explain it any better than that.
So, where I work and play, there is no shortage of Black baseball players who are good. We don't need a separate developing program to encourage our sons to play. What we need is for college recruiters and the MLB to recognize that they are there and act accordingly. Geez, Guys, I don't know what else to say.
I think the developmental programs are not the answer. Maybe in some areas of the country. Do think they are good programs and help lots of kids, just don't have a big impact on baseball.
I don't think it's a matter of talking kids into playing baseball, but taking a different approach that might cause kids (of all races) to want to persue baseball on their own.
Specialization in one sport is part of the problem. Many specialize in football and basketball for the very reasons talked about above. Those who do not specialize and play two sports or more, often find out that what they thought was their second best sport ended up being their best opportunity in the end. Of course, specializing in one sport does not allow that to happen very often.
Catfish,
I think the Atlanta area produces many outstanding black (and white) players. It is probably a national leader in that department. Other parts of the country are much different.IMO
I think some of the top programs in your area help tremendously. There have been many outstanding players come through the East Cobb program and other top teams from the area. I think those kids understand they have a great opportunity in baseball. I don't think that is true in most other places. Especially where baseball is not quite as popular at the youth levels.
When players like Chris Nelson, Dexter Fowler, Jason Heyward, Cedric Hunter, Brent Brewer, Josh Burris, Brandon and PJ Phillips, and this year Tim Beckman and many others are getting drafted in the early rounds... That Helps! BTW, those same players would have played in college had they not signed pro contracts.
BTW, I agree that the games telecast in Compton were counter productive if the purpose was to promote baseball to African American youth. I agree, it did more harm than good. A black college with 20 players from Puerto Rico on the roster really doesn't do much to promote the college game to young black players.
I don't think it's a matter of talking kids into playing baseball, but taking a different approach that might cause kids (of all races) to want to persue baseball on their own.
Specialization in one sport is part of the problem. Many specialize in football and basketball for the very reasons talked about above. Those who do not specialize and play two sports or more, often find out that what they thought was their second best sport ended up being their best opportunity in the end. Of course, specializing in one sport does not allow that to happen very often.
Catfish,
I think the Atlanta area produces many outstanding black (and white) players. It is probably a national leader in that department. Other parts of the country are much different.IMO
I think some of the top programs in your area help tremendously. There have been many outstanding players come through the East Cobb program and other top teams from the area. I think those kids understand they have a great opportunity in baseball. I don't think that is true in most other places. Especially where baseball is not quite as popular at the youth levels.
When players like Chris Nelson, Dexter Fowler, Jason Heyward, Cedric Hunter, Brent Brewer, Josh Burris, Brandon and PJ Phillips, and this year Tim Beckman and many others are getting drafted in the early rounds... That Helps! BTW, those same players would have played in college had they not signed pro contracts.
BTW, I agree that the games telecast in Compton were counter productive if the purpose was to promote baseball to African American youth. I agree, it did more harm than good. A black college with 20 players from Puerto Rico on the roster really doesn't do much to promote the college game to young black players.
The plot thickens ----- I went by a so-ccer field this weekend and many of the participants looked hispanic (our new minority in Tennessee). It's obvious many of these great athletes should be involved in baseball. Is this a problem and if so what do we do?
I agree with everything you said, PG. I guess our little corner of the U.S. is unique. When I see hundreds of Black boys playing baseball every Spring, Summer and Fall here in our area, and then hear other posters say that Blacks choose not to play baseball, I am amazed.
A Black College with 20 players from Puerto Rico on the roster is almost comical. I have to laugh to keep from crying.
A Black College with 20 players from Puerto Rico on the roster is almost comical. I have to laugh to keep from crying.
As someone has stated previously. this subject has been discussed time after time with no clear cut answers. Everyone, I believe, has valid points as to why blacks do not participate as much in baseball as they do in the other two major sports.
I think there are any number of reasons why they do not and probably all valid points. So What? Why are we always trying to drum up a problem where none exists?
When I was young and watching Sandy Koufax pitch against Willie Mays it never entered my mind that a Jew was pitching against a Black, I just enjoyed seeing the best pitcher in the league against the best hitter in the league and was rooting for Willie to knock him off the mound. I loved Willie Mays. It also never entered my mind that there may have been a better athlete somewhere in the world that never got the opportunity to play baseball for whatever reason.
When I watched Jim Brown-a black man(my all-time favorite football player) run over Sam Huff-a white man I never wondered if there were better players somewhere that didn't get the opportunity to play in the NFL.
When I saw Bill Russell block Jerry West going in for a layup I was thrilled. He was also one of my favorites. Never crossed my mind there may be a better player that didn't make the NBA.
Look, if we as a society are purposely keeping groups of people from participating in any endeavor that they so desire, then it is wrong and should be addressed immediately and rectified, period. But to try to increase racial participation
in a sport because of the supposed shortage or the need to insure that the "best" athletes participate is 100% wrong,IMO.
If an athlete has the desire to participate in baseball, football, basketball, hockey who are we as a society to tell them they must choose one over the other? Why isn't MLB also throwing money at the Asian community? Why isn't the NBA spending $
to develop white ballplayers-couldn't it be possible that some great white athlete somwhere(maybe another Larry Bird) will never even give basketball a try because it has become a black man's game? Where's the outcry that we may never know who that athlete is?
Don't understand why people still feel the need to put everything in a black vs white issue. At least be honest in your feelings. If it's percentages you want then what are they? If it's not percentages then what is it? When is it going to be OK? When? Let us know so that we can get over this "problem".
All I know is that when I watch an athletic event I never think to myself-"It's too bad that I'm not seeing the best in the world." All I want to know is that those who are competing are giving it their BEST.
I apologize in advance for offending anyone.
I think there are any number of reasons why they do not and probably all valid points. So What? Why are we always trying to drum up a problem where none exists?
When I was young and watching Sandy Koufax pitch against Willie Mays it never entered my mind that a Jew was pitching against a Black, I just enjoyed seeing the best pitcher in the league against the best hitter in the league and was rooting for Willie to knock him off the mound. I loved Willie Mays. It also never entered my mind that there may have been a better athlete somewhere in the world that never got the opportunity to play baseball for whatever reason.
When I watched Jim Brown-a black man(my all-time favorite football player) run over Sam Huff-a white man I never wondered if there were better players somewhere that didn't get the opportunity to play in the NFL.
When I saw Bill Russell block Jerry West going in for a layup I was thrilled. He was also one of my favorites. Never crossed my mind there may be a better player that didn't make the NBA.
Look, if we as a society are purposely keeping groups of people from participating in any endeavor that they so desire, then it is wrong and should be addressed immediately and rectified, period. But to try to increase racial participation
in a sport because of the supposed shortage or the need to insure that the "best" athletes participate is 100% wrong,IMO.
If an athlete has the desire to participate in baseball, football, basketball, hockey who are we as a society to tell them they must choose one over the other? Why isn't MLB also throwing money at the Asian community? Why isn't the NBA spending $
to develop white ballplayers-couldn't it be possible that some great white athlete somwhere(maybe another Larry Bird) will never even give basketball a try because it has become a black man's game? Where's the outcry that we may never know who that athlete is?
Don't understand why people still feel the need to put everything in a black vs white issue. At least be honest in your feelings. If it's percentages you want then what are they? If it's not percentages then what is it? When is it going to be OK? When? Let us know so that we can get over this "problem".
All I know is that when I watch an athletic event I never think to myself-"It's too bad that I'm not seeing the best in the world." All I want to know is that those who are competing are giving it their BEST.
I apologize in advance for offending anyone.
Catfish has brought an intersesting perspective on this topic and I'm glad those participating are doing so in a level headed direction.
I have a question, probably directed toward Catfish in response to the above quote....I'm not privy to the answer because I'm not familiar with the mindset of the black or for that matter the Southern athlete as a whole.
Would a talented black player from the Atlanta area be receptive to going North to play college baseball on a predomintly white team if the opportunity arose?
I've had this reply sitting on my desktop all morning because I did not want it want it taken wrong because that is the furthest thing from my thought. There are regional behaviors, North/ South, black/white, that sometimes puts preconcieved limits on opportunities and this was one question sitting on the front of my frostbit mind.
Many times in life you have use an alternative door in order to get into the main room.
quote:Blacks want to play baseball, role models or not. But when they look beyond high school, they see nothing.
I have a question, probably directed toward Catfish in response to the above quote....I'm not privy to the answer because I'm not familiar with the mindset of the black or for that matter the Southern athlete as a whole.
Would a talented black player from the Atlanta area be receptive to going North to play college baseball on a predomintly white team if the opportunity arose?
I've had this reply sitting on my desktop all morning because I did not want it want it taken wrong because that is the furthest thing from my thought. There are regional behaviors, North/ South, black/white, that sometimes puts preconcieved limits on opportunities and this was one question sitting on the front of my frostbit mind.
Many times in life you have use an alternative door in order to get into the main room.
If a kid, regardless of race or creed. wants to continue playing his sport of choice he will find a way to make it happen---others have made it happen so what is the excuse ?
A well thought out response, Moc1...My response to what you have said is this: Right now many Americans feel in their gut that the numbers in baseball aren't right in college and in the MLB. Major League Baseball has even publicly said so.
Is three enough? Six too many? I can't answer that. You've probably heard the saying, "I really don't know what I'm looking for but I'll know it when I see it." I think when the numbers are right, collectively, we'll all know it, what ever those numbers happen to be.
Is three enough? Six too many? I can't answer that. You've probably heard the saying, "I really don't know what I'm looking for but I'll know it when I see it." I think when the numbers are right, collectively, we'll all know it, what ever those numbers happen to be.
quote:If you are a Black baseball player looking for a scholarship, and you are also great in football and/or basketball, where would you focus your energy? After conducting your research and looking at football, basketball and baseball teams all over this nation, where would you focus your energy? Go ahead...answer that.
If I truly loved baseball, that's where I would focus my energy. If all you are looking for is a scholarship, they you've made your choice.
I apologize, rz1. I was typing and didn't see your question until I had posted. Great question by the way.
The answer to your question is a resounding "YES" for many Black players. The southern Black is used to being the "only one" in a number of arenas as I have stated previously. Our son has been the "only one" so many times until I have lost count. If a big northern school had offered our son an opportunity to play baseball, he would have jumped at the chance. All one would want is to be treated fairly.
TRhit...No excuses. I would just like to know how in God's name does a kid who wants to continue playing his sport of choice make it happen if the coach doesn't put him on the team?
The answer to your question is a resounding "YES" for many Black players. The southern Black is used to being the "only one" in a number of arenas as I have stated previously. Our son has been the "only one" so many times until I have lost count. If a big northern school had offered our son an opportunity to play baseball, he would have jumped at the chance. All one would want is to be treated fairly.
TRhit...No excuses. I would just like to know how in God's name does a kid who wants to continue playing his sport of choice make it happen if the coach doesn't put him on the team?
Well, first of all I don't think "making someone do something" is the answer at all.
Here is the problem and at least to me, it is a big problem. Everyone is talking about something different here.
Many of us do remember the days of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and the days when baseball was 20% or more black players. One doesn't have to wonder whether Willie was the greatest player, but we all know he and many other black players were among the best.
Over the past 40 years, the number of black players has steadily declined. At the same time more and more of the draft consists of college players. The number of black college players is very small. So it appears that these numbers will continue to dwindle. So what is the magic number? I don't know, but I do know if and when that number reaches or gets close to zero, we have an inferior game as compared to what it once was.
Now, if no one sees that as a problem, that's fine. But there's no reason to argue against those who do see it as a problem. I consider it a big problem. Not necessarily a problem for blacks, but a big problem for the popularity of the game and the quality of the game. I know that there are a lot of people who really are concerned, though they might not be involved in posting here.
So it might still be OK for now, still a lot of great black ballplayers, (if that has any importance to anyone) but it is headed in the wrong direction. It will continue going in the same direction if it's ignored. The numbers will continue to decrease. I understand that is OK with many and many think there is no problem at all. And I also understand that there are many much more important things than baseball.
Finally, this is not a racial debate! This is a baseball issue in my mind. I think baseball has the most to lose!
Here is the problem and at least to me, it is a big problem. Everyone is talking about something different here.
Many of us do remember the days of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and the days when baseball was 20% or more black players. One doesn't have to wonder whether Willie was the greatest player, but we all know he and many other black players were among the best.
Over the past 40 years, the number of black players has steadily declined. At the same time more and more of the draft consists of college players. The number of black college players is very small. So it appears that these numbers will continue to dwindle. So what is the magic number? I don't know, but I do know if and when that number reaches or gets close to zero, we have an inferior game as compared to what it once was.
Now, if no one sees that as a problem, that's fine. But there's no reason to argue against those who do see it as a problem. I consider it a big problem. Not necessarily a problem for blacks, but a big problem for the popularity of the game and the quality of the game. I know that there are a lot of people who really are concerned, though they might not be involved in posting here.
So it might still be OK for now, still a lot of great black ballplayers, (if that has any importance to anyone) but it is headed in the wrong direction. It will continue going in the same direction if it's ignored. The numbers will continue to decrease. I understand that is OK with many and many think there is no problem at all. And I also understand that there are many much more important things than baseball.
Finally, this is not a racial debate! This is a baseball issue in my mind. I think baseball has the most to lose!
Moc1, Great post. RZ1, A great solution if we could identify a problem. FrankF, You bring up a great point. I think the vast majority of baseball players are trying to GIVE their talent to the game of baseball instead of looking a what baseball can give them.
Hmmm --- I'm starting to sense some sour grapes in this thread. I know sour grapes always rears it's ugly head as something other than sour grapes.
Hmmm --- I'm starting to sense some sour grapes in this thread. I know sour grapes always rears it's ugly head as something other than sour grapes.
catfish
Is it possible that a young man trying out for a team, regardless of the sport, does not make it because of his talent or lack thereof and race or religion had nothing to do with it.
I know I have never asked a HS coach about his players race or religion--my question is a simple " can he play at our level" if he can I could care less if he was green with two heads and neither would the other kids on the team
Is it possible that a young man trying out for a team, regardless of the sport, does not make it because of his talent or lack thereof and race or religion had nothing to do with it.
I know I have never asked a HS coach about his players race or religion--my question is a simple " can he play at our level" if he can I could care less if he was green with two heads and neither would the other kids on the team
FrankF, of course most Black players are looking for a scholarship. Unless you are super wealthy, wouldn't your son be looking for a scholarship?
But I'll play along. Let's follow your line of thinking. I'm a Junior in High School. I'm a good baseball and football player who would like to get a scholarship to go to college. But I truly love baseball, it's my preference, my dream is to play college and pro baseball. So I'm looking around. I send out feelers, mail back every inquiry from colleges. I've gone to the baseball showcases over the years. I continue to work hard. I look at the college ranks and don't see many, if any, Blacks on the teams. But I don't let that discourage me. I'm waiting, I'm a senior now and time is moving. I am also a good football player. Colleges are offering me football scholarships left and right. But I don't really want to play football anymore, I want to play baseball in college. I'm not getting any offers. By now I know, because I'm reasonably intelligent, that the chances of my getting a baseball scholarship is slim to none. I've done the research, I've seen the faces on the teams. At what point do I refocus my energy on a more realistic goal? Or do I risk all my eggs in the baseball basket that a baseball scholarship will come through? However, if it does, I'll take it. But in most cases it doesn't come through.
But I'll play along. Let's follow your line of thinking. I'm a Junior in High School. I'm a good baseball and football player who would like to get a scholarship to go to college. But I truly love baseball, it's my preference, my dream is to play college and pro baseball. So I'm looking around. I send out feelers, mail back every inquiry from colleges. I've gone to the baseball showcases over the years. I continue to work hard. I look at the college ranks and don't see many, if any, Blacks on the teams. But I don't let that discourage me. I'm waiting, I'm a senior now and time is moving. I am also a good football player. Colleges are offering me football scholarships left and right. But I don't really want to play football anymore, I want to play baseball in college. I'm not getting any offers. By now I know, because I'm reasonably intelligent, that the chances of my getting a baseball scholarship is slim to none. I've done the research, I've seen the faces on the teams. At what point do I refocus my energy on a more realistic goal? Or do I risk all my eggs in the baseball basket that a baseball scholarship will come through? However, if it does, I'll take it. But in most cases it doesn't come through.
Once again this has become a tough topic. Many think there is no problem and a few seem to think there is a problem.
If there is a problem then we need solutions. If there's not a problem there's no need to look for a solution.
Guess time will tell.
BTW, I also believe the percentages of all Americans is also too low right now, at least in professional baseball. But I hate to start yet another controversial topic.
If there is a problem then we need solutions. If there's not a problem there's no need to look for a solution.
Guess time will tell.
BTW, I also believe the percentages of all Americans is also too low right now, at least in professional baseball. But I hate to start yet another controversial topic.
Trhit...Great question!! Of course! It is not only possible, it is probable. It happens all the time. Please remember that I have never said that every Black baseball player who plays high school ball is good enough to play at the college level. I just know that there are many who are, but never get a shot at the college level.
Catfish
No offense, but just because you like baseball better than football that does not make you a baseball talent worthy of major college ball---perhaps your "calling" is football(Full scholarship) and then when you get there you try out for the baseball team and see what happens
No offense, but just because you like baseball better than football that does not make you a baseball talent worthy of major college ball---perhaps your "calling" is football(Full scholarship) and then when you get there you try out for the baseball team and see what happens
PGStaff...You are right. A discussion about the decreasing numbers of Americans in baseball is a whole "nother" ball game. We would need more bandwidth to open that can of worms.
No offense taken, TrHit.
No offense taken, TrHit.
PG again a super post. I KNOW this is a huge problem for baseball. Baseball may not be able to turn the tide because of people like myself that see baseball as a mere sport and not a way of life. I do disagree with your last sentence about this not being a racial issue. Many have said the same thing. This IS about race and nothing else. It's about as racial as it gets. Webster says of racial: about, related to, or pertaining to a race Maybe we're trying to make "racial" into a bad word ---- it's not. We can make it bad if we say "racially discriminatory". We can talk all day long about black players and white players and have a very healthy racial discussion and make no discriminatory remarks as most have done here today. We're talking race so we are having a racial discussion. If we single out a group of people (black or white) and alter their lives (good or bad) then we can be accused of being racially discriminating. While Catfish has not come out and said it he indicated MLB and college coaches are discriminating against the black baseball players by not recruiting them. While I have not said this I feel as if black athletes are discriminating against baseball and pursuing other sports. The end result is the same --- and baseball suffers.
Fungo...You will NOT put words in my mouth. I have never implied that MLB and college coaches are discriminating against the Black baseball player by not recruiting them. I don't know why they are not recruiting them. That's what we would like to find out.
It's sad that you feel that Black athletes are discriminating against baseball by pursuing other sports (your words). I don't understand how Black athletes can discriminate against baseball. But its sad that you feel that way, sort of strange, too.
It's sad that you feel that Black athletes are discriminating against baseball by pursuing other sports (your words). I don't understand how Black athletes can discriminate against baseball. But its sad that you feel that way, sort of strange, too.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
..I also believe the percentages of all Americans is also too low right now, at least in professional baseball. But I hate to start yet another controversial topic.
How about we cut the salary caps and ticket prices. Do a MLB expansion. Let every big city have a MLB team. I think 50 MLB teams in the State is about the right size. These will sure lure more kids to play baseball.
quote:The end result is the same --- and baseball suffers.
Fungo, That is precisely my point. But I understand why some might disagree.
It is a discussion (as far as I'm concerned) about the issue of the dwindling number of black "baseball" players. If that makes it a racial discussion I stand corrected. I still would rather call it a baseball discussion.
quote:How about we cut the salary caps and ticket prices. Do a MLB expansion. Let every big city have a MLB team. I think 50 MLB teams in the State is about the right size. These will sure lure more kids to play baseball.
Coachwww,
I don't know if you're joking or not, but as big as that seems to be, it's not a bad idea. Do you think it might water things down too much?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:How about we cut the salary caps and ticket prices. Do a MLB expansion. Let every big city have a MLB team. I think 50 MLB teams in the State is about the right size. These will sure lure more kids to play baseball.
Coachwww,
I don't know if you're joking or not, but as big as that seems to be, it's not a bad idea. Do you think it might water things down too much?
It's just my wishful thinking, I am afraid my son may not even make the D1 college team. So if they can water down things a little bit, everyone got a chance. Hey, I will take a 200K pay check anytime.
I never dream about those Millions.
If we cut the Maximum player salary to 500K per, we can afford to have 100 MLB team for sure.
quote:But I truly love baseball, it's my preference, my dream is to play college and pro baseball.
It might be your dream, but if you can't get a scholarship of some type, either you haven't exhausted all the possibilities or the talent wasn't there. I am not naive enough to believe there isn't still discrimination in this country, but I firmly believe that if a player wants to play bad enough, there is a place for him. Unless they are asking for a full ride or something similar, most anyone with some talent can find a place to play at the next level.
My son did not receive an athletic scholarship and has student loans to pay back, but he wasn't going to let that get in the way of pursuing his dream of playing college and possibly pro ball.
The desire was there and he wasn't going to take "no" for an answer. He didn't have football or basketball to fall back on. Maybe that is part of the issue? If it wasn't so easy to give up the dream maybe they would exhaust all possibilities before moving on.