College coach problems

I'd look into transferring to a JUCO, playing there a year or two and then move on to another 4 year

My sympathies to your son's situation.  Please don't beat yourself up re this.  Ultimately it was your son's decision to go there.

The coach isn't going to change.  Either your kid sticks it out or transfers, but generally when people show you their true colors, they don't change their personalities.

Going to get into some psych here, but is your son in a roundabout way asking you if its ok to walk away from the program?  If so you need to let him know that its his decision and you support him either way.  Kids don't always ask but by letting you know he is having a hard time he maybe feeling you out to make sure you are going to be on his side if he leaves the team.

The above said, I ran track in college at a competitive school.  The coach was a little old fashion and at times would be abrupt, distance and seem like he was ignoring you.  My sr year I went to him with a problem with a class scheduling problem (he asked us to do this) that may cause me to drop below the required 12 credits needed in season.  His answer to me, "figure it out its your problem" and he walked away.  This really pi$$ed me off.  I called one of the ACs that I was close with and let him know I was going to quit the next day.  He talked me off the ledge and reminded me that the HC could be a little bit of an A.. and that I need to take 48 hours before making my decision.  In the end it was good advice.  I guess what I am getting at is this...Is there an AC that your son can talk to?  It maybe that he is reading too much into things and that he is ok.  The AC could maybe able give him some perspective.

Your kid can go any where he likes.  Look at some other schools.  If the situation seems better, make the jump.

But beware, most coaches, like most bosses, are jerks in some way.  The grass may not be greener. 

Sorry to hear. As parent that ticks me off beyond words. However, I agree with Joe, it is your son to decide leaving school he clearly likes for baseball. What he decides I am sure you will give him the necessary support. I think the baseball universe requires at least 20 of these SOB coaches for every great one to keep it in balance.

Your son seems to be at his breaking point.  If he went to the school for BASEBALL first  and everything else second, I would let him\encourage him to transfer to a JUCO at the semester break.   No reason to stay and play for that coach.  None.  

Sorry to hear. This is a tough one. Does your son like the school and is he making progress towards his degree? Remember, that's the goal here. Transferring to another school can be difficult. Loss of credits, not on the coaches proffered list and another year older with less experience.

Does he have other coaches interested? Is there a good JUCO he can get in to?

I would suggest you continue to reach out here on this site and continue to give more information. Also, I would encourage you tell your son to continue to work hard, don't take the coaches comments personal. Stay focused on baseball.  He might be able to get past this, but if not, he will be in good baseball shape for the next opportunity.

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies.  I passed your advice on to my son.  His dad and I are still reeling from hearing this but we’re trying really hard not to let our feelings cloud the advice we give him (I want to say “please stay and play!”).  He is on track towards his degree and loves the school otherwise.  He just told me he doesn’t want to transfer because he feels so settled there.  So if he decides to quit the team, it sounds like his baseball career will be over.  I Hate to even think about that, but it’s his choice.  I’m hoping he at least sticks it out for the year and then decides. 

joes87 posted:

Going to get into some psych here, but is your son in a roundabout way asking you if its ok to walk away from the program?  If so you need to let him know that its his decision and you support him either way.  Kids don't always ask but by letting you know he is having a hard time he maybe feeling you out to make sure you are going to be on his side if he leaves the team.

The above said, I ran track in college at a competitive school.  The coach was a little old fashion and at times would be abrupt, distance and seem like he was ignoring you.  My sr year I went to him with a problem with a class scheduling problem (he asked us to do this) that may cause me to drop below the required 12 credits needed in season.  His answer to me, "figure it out its your problem" and he walked away.  This really pi$$ed me off.  I called one of the ACs that I was close with and let him know I was going to quit the next day.  He talked me off the ledge and reminded me that the HC could be a little bit of an A.. and that I need to take 48 hours before making my decision.  In the end it was good advice.  I guess what I am getting at is this...Is there an AC that your son can talk to?  It maybe that he is reading too much into things and that he is ok.  The AC could maybe able give him some perspective.

Your story is awful!! I can’t believe how cold these coaches can be.  I’m all for being tough on them and teaching them responsibility, but to be that rude is uncalled for.  I’m glad you found someone to talk to - hopefully my son will as well.  

First, is playing baseball at this college or their academics more important in this situation? It’s how he decides if he transfers or not. If it’s a high academic you stay. If it’s Timbuktu U transferring is an option. 

Everything in his life isn’t going to be rosy. I got my dream job out of college. Consider it like a high academic college. But I detested my boss. He wasn’t a manager. He was an authoritative boss living three decades in the past. When I started an MBA at night he told me not to get smart and quit on him. 

I kept the job long enough to use my established experience and the reputation of having worked there to eventually find a better job. But I stuck it out until it was the right time to leave. 

When a person quits and runs it gets easier to do the next time. This may be the first mentally tough test of his young adult life. The situation may not change. But your son may change into maturing to deal with it. 

What happens if your son transfers and the next coach doesn’t turn out to be a nice guy? 

As a final note, after my son’s redshirt soph year the coach left. The new coach didn’t respect what my son was trying to accomplish academically. He made it tough on my son. He mocked him. After being a starter he didn’t start the first two games the following season. My son never spoke of quitting. But he did call me ticked off a few times to let off steam. He did stay mentally prepared, delivered in Sunday’s game and started the rest of the season.

I think your son will figure it out all by himself. A little background - My son went to Notre Dame as an architect major and played his first year of Fall ball. Not sure if you know Aaron Heilman but he was the big pitcher for them at the time. Aaron loved my son and told coach to keep him on the team as his bullpen guy. Coach told my son he would never get game time but he would be on the team as long as he switched his major (because architects spend a year in Italy). My son thanked him but stayed in the architect program and is very successful today. It broke my heart but it was the right decision. 

I am a college coach and I think a pretty compassionate one. Sometimes that gets in the way of making a correct decision, but that's OK with me. I know your guy is in Fall ball but is he going to be rostered in the spring? If yes since he loves the school then just stick it out and keep his head down, love his teammates and things will work out. As in life you will come across every possible personality trait among coaches.  So if he's a hard ass it's a non issue and your guy will deal with it.  

Since he was injured last year, he hasn't even gone through a full season as an active player.  For that reason alone, I would stick it out for the year.  Was he rough on your son last year?  If not, maybe this is his way of trying to motivate your son.  Why would a head coach watch a bullpen session? Typically, as I understand it and have been told, a pitcher will interact much more with the PC than the HC.  Does he love his teammates and how important is that over his relationship with the HC?

At the end of the year, if he's still miserable and the negatives outweigh the positives, then maybe you reconsider.  In hindsight, perhaps your relationship/read of the HC should have been more of a factor in choosing this school?

Good luck

SUMOM3 posted:

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies.  I passed your advice on to my son.  His dad and I are still reeling from hearing this but we’re trying really hard not to let our feelings cloud the advice we give him (I want to say “please stay and play!”).  He is on track towards his degree and loves the school otherwise.  He just told me he doesn’t want to transfer because he feels so settled there.  So if he decides to quit the team, it sounds like his baseball career will be over.  I Hate to even think about that, but it’s his choice.  I’m hoping he at least sticks it out for the year and then decides. 

Though not exactly the same, I can relate to your heartbreak a little bit. My nephew is only a sophomore in HS, but he recently decided he didn't want to pursue college ball (though he had a real chance at a competetive D1 program). His mom and I are still wrapping our heads around his decision (and secretly hoping he changes his mind). My boss is also part of the "heartbroken baseball parent" club right now. Her son gave up his starting CF spot on a competetive D2 program to transfer for a different major. She is taking it much better now that classes have started at his new school and she sees how happy he is there. 

At his age, your son probably knows in his heart what is right for him. Only he knows whether its worth his time and energy to stick it out with this coach. He just needs to know you guys will support him whatever decision he makes. Sounds like that is exactly what you are doing, so kudos to you. Your story is the perfect example of the advice I have often seen here:  "choose a school you would love even if you didn't play baseball." Whatever he decides, I wish your son the best!

CTbballDad posted:

Since he was injured last year, he hasn't even gone through a full season as an active player.  For that reason alone, I would stick it out for the year.  Was he rough on your son last year?  If not, maybe this is his way of trying to motivate your son.  Why would a head coach watch a bullpen session? Typically, as I understand it and have been told, a pitcher will interact much more with the PC than the HC.  Does he love his teammates and how important is that over his relationship with the HC?

At the end of the year, if he's still miserable and the negatives outweigh the positives, then maybe you reconsider.  In hindsight, perhaps your relationship/read of the HC should have been more of a factor in choosing this school?

Good luck

Correct, he only played last fall for this coach, and in D3 that’s not much. This will be his first full season if he sticks with it.    The coach was definitely cold last year, but his rudeness is bothering my son more this year.  Being asked to leave practice because he missed a wild pitch was the breaking point.   He does love his teammates... he’s made some great friends.  And several of them are unhappy with the coach. Although they don’t say it in such polite terms.   And I agree... we should have talked more about this HC when my son made his decision.   I’m so mad at myself for not speaking up when my gut told me that I didn’t like this guy. 

SUMOM3 posted:

CTbballDad posted:

Since he was injured last year, he hasn't even gone through a full season as an active player.  For that reason alone, I would stick it out for the year.  Was he rough on your son last year?  If not, maybe this is his way of trying to motivate your son.  Why would a head coach watch a bullpen session? Typically, as I understand it and have been told, a pitcher will interact much more with the PC than the HC.  Does he love his teammates and how important is that over his relationship with the HC?

At the end of the year, if he's still miserable and the negatives outweigh the positives, then maybe you reconsider.  In hindsight, perhaps your relationship/read of the HC should have been more of a factor in choosing this school?

Good luck

Correct, he only played last fall for this coach, and in D3 that’s not much. This will be his first full season if he sticks with it.    The coach was definitely cold last year, but his rudeness is bothering my son more this year.  Being asked to leave practice because he missed a wild pitch was the breaking point.   He does love his teammates... he’s made some great friends.  And several of them are unhappy with the coach. Although they don’t say it in such polite terms.   And I agree... we should have talked more about this HC when my son made his decision.   I’m so mad at myself for not speaking up when my gut told me that I didn’t like this guy. 

SUMOM3

I sent you a PM

IMO just move on polite as possible. It is a small community of coaches and is seems they all associate together, work together, coach clinics together, recruit similar locations, tell each other they are smarter then the next guy and that everyone who doesn't coach is a dumbass, they convince themselves coaching D3 is a high pressure job...and the cycle continues.

You won't win and you can't stop it. Just do your best to get what your sons needs or wants at new school. There is no point in have a fight or argument. This isn't personal...you could certainly argue it isn't professional and you may or may not be correct.

Just move on.

Tough situation & decisions for a young man.  I agree with Joe87 that your son is checking in with you to see how much latitude he has.  As an FYI, very few college players like their HC for one reason or another just as most people don't like their bosses.  It sounds like this guy is going out of his way to make some point with your son....I don't know what that point is and I'm guessing your son is going to be apprehensive about approaching this coach to discuss it.  But, I think that is what he has to do before making any big decisions such as leaving a school he loves, or dropping the sport he loves.   Requesting a one on one meeting with the HC at the end of the season would be a good starting point to get all the information he needs to make an informed decision (if any).   

As always, JMO.

old_school posted:

IMO just move on polite as possible. It is a small community of coaches and is seems they all associate together, work together, coach clinics together, recruit similar locations, tell each other they are smarter then the next guy and that everyone who doesn't coach is a dumbass, they convince themselves coaching D3 is a high pressure job...and the cycle continues.

You won't win and you can't stop it. Just do your best to get what your sons needs or wants at new school. There is no point in have a fight or argument. This isn't personal...you could certainly argue it isn't professional and you may or may not be correct.

Just move on.

If the community of coaches is small, which I'm aware it is, how is it beneficial for a kid to try to move on mid-year?  You would think he needs to reach out to other coaches before transferring.  If so, would the potential new coach reach out to the current coach to ask what's up?

I'll be the tough love guy: I don't think anyone should quit anything in life, without truly vetting the situation.  Do not quit unless the boy speaks with the coach.  Maybe the coach sees potential in the player, but think he needs to 'sharpen the blade' if you would.

At some point, our kids need to face the situation head on, without calling mom or dad.  Perhaps this is the first of many instances, time to nut up.

OZone, very good post! Great perspective & sound wisdom! 

SUMom, this is part of his growing up...He can learn alot from this guy, if not what "to do", then what "not to do"...It may be an "obstacle", but NOT a dead end...Does your son have what it takes to overcome? Persevere? demonstrate Courage?

jmo

I'm going to go another way with this.  We hear it all the time on here yet have not heard it in this conversation.  Have him make an appointment with the HC and sit down.  Maybe there is something he needs to hear from the HC about the situation.  Every now and then in life, we do something that we do not realize or have unfair expectations.  Maybe he has done something without realizing it or maybe the HC is just trying to motivate him to be more assertive and want it.  I know my middle son at times became complacent when he did not have the success he did in high school and it showed in his pitching and practices.  The AC called me at least twice and wanted to know if something was going on they did not know about.  I told them he was the kid who needed the kick in the butt and a strong talking to to be motivated.  He called the next night and told me the coaches had jumped his butt about his lack of competitiveness and I said good.  I told him later they had called me.  Again, some coaches style of motivation is not the same as others.  Some motivate through love and others through discipline.  I think there has to be a mix of both.  At least have him ask before he quits.  May change everything.

SUMOM3 posted:

joes87 posted:

Going to get into some psych here, but is your son in a roundabout way asking you if its ok to walk away from the program?  If so you need to let him know that its his decision and you support him either way.  Kids don't always ask but by letting you know he is having a hard time he maybe feeling you out to make sure you are going to be on his side if he leaves the team.

The above said, I ran track in college at a competitive school.  The coach was a little old fashion and at times would be abrupt, distance and seem like he was ignoring you.  My sr year I went to him with a problem with a class scheduling problem (he asked us to do this) that may cause me to drop below the required 12 credits needed in season.  His answer to me, "figure it out its your problem" and he walked away.  This really pi$$ed me off.  I called one of the ACs that I was close with and let him know I was going to quit the next day.  He talked me off the ledge and reminded me that the HC could be a little bit of an A.. and that I need to take 48 hours before making my decision.  In the end it was good advice.  I guess what I am getting at is this...Is there an AC that your son can talk to?  It maybe that he is reading too much into things and that he is ok.  The AC could maybe able give him some perspective.

Your story is awful!! I can’t believe how cold these coaches can be.  I’m all for being tough on them and teaching them responsibility, but to be that rude is uncalled for.  I’m glad you found someone to talk to - hopefully my son will as well.  

I don't see it that way.  When I was in college "old school" coaches were more the norm then the exception.  You learned to deal with it.  Heck in a way it gave my teammates and me something to rally around.

I just realized that I did not follow up to what ultimately happened.  I stayed on the team.  The AC raised a good point in that it was my Sr season and I only had 1 Sr season and I worked too hard to give it up at that point.  I stayed on the team.  As I said above the coach was old fashion "at times".  He was also a decent guy if he needed to be.  He was very helpful and accommodating during a personal tragedy my sophomore year.

Also, I have very fond memories of my last day on the track.  As many folks have alluded to playing sports in college is more like a job then it is in HS.  Track meets normally last 10 hours or more and sometimes are spread over 2 days.  When you have a home meet you show up, do your job and then leave.  Most times folks will shower and stay around for a while, but they rarely stick around all day.  My very last meet was a home meet.  I vividly remember finishing up, and seeing a group of other SRs sitting around on the track.  I walked over and sat with them for the remainder of the meet.  After it was done we were walking around talking to folks from other teams, some teammates and officials.  In reality no one wanted to leave the track.  The HC came over to each one of us and pulled us aside.  He had a personal conversation with each one of us.  To this day I still treasure that discussion and keep some of it private as it means a lot to me.

In the end I choose to see the fix it yourself incident as a growing moment.  He was teaching me that you need to deal with your problems and that other folks will not fix things for you.  He basically taught me to man up.  The ACs advice to wait a while before making decision was solid as well.  To this day both of those lessons have severed me well.

There are some good points on both sides of this conversation. At the end of the day your son will have decide what he wants. He has 4 years maybe 5 of college, he has already spent one. He needs to decide what type of remaining time he wants to have and what that is worth.

Keep in mind he is paying for the privilege to be treated poorly...somewhere as a human being that does matter. If it is irrelevant then he might be at the perfect place.  

I'm going to add a perspective I have had to tell players over the years when I gave them the same advice I gave young guys going into boot camp. There are coaches like this out there. There used to be more.

My son's freshman and sophomore years we had one of these old school coaches. He was vulgar. Screamed obscenities at the kids. One of his favorites was to grab a bat out of the batters hands during BP and throw it as far as he could into the outfield and make the kid sprint after it. From the outside, it looked awful. I, however, had gotten to know this guy on a personal basis. You would never have known how much he cared about these kids from his demeanor on the field. I once watched him completely humiliate and berate a player at practice and then, less than two hours later, was with him while he sold a college coach on the kid in glowing terms. I'm not sure this kid ever knew what the coach thought of him. This was his style of coaching. It was his style. I didn't agree with it, but I never saw him put kids in physical danger. Of course, it was somewhat psychologically a problem and wouldn't fly in almost any other area, but this is nothing new in sports. 

One place it does fly is the military. I have counseled kids with coaches like this to understand what such actions do and don't mean. I tell the same to kids I know going into the military. It's just a pre-planned strategy they use. It's nothing personal and there is almost nothing you can do to avoid it. This is how I got through boot camp. I simply understood. Once you understand that it's not personal and not a reflection of actual hatred toward you, the hard part becomes actually trying not to laugh at what then just seems like a comically absurd, over-theatrical style of motivation. 

Now, maybe your kid's coach actually does hate him, but it's unlikely. More likely, this is just what he thinks works. Now, coaches who put kids in harm way are a different story. It's an old saying with coaches like this that you shouldn't worry when they are screaming at you and berating you - it's when they stop and ignore you that you better worry.

MOM3:

Are you on the East Coast? There is a short Fall season for "turning the coach". What is the background of the Coach, full time, a teacher. How long at this school. Gather information, before you make a decision. The Coach's "bullying" performance is his way of removing players from the team.

He cannot face the player, but uses "insults" to the player. He wants a reaction.

Bob

This is from a motivational speech by Randy Pausch ...

The coach really gave you a hard time this week. It’s because he cares. If he didn’t care he would be ignoring you. The walls weren’t put there to keep you out. They’re there to see how badly you want it.

it’s possible the coach's act is to run him off. But it could be to motivate him. It’s why it’s important to talk to the coach if he believes he is being run off. He could be very wrong.

I have to tell you, roothog...we think alike. I recall one time, my husband "lectured" our son on some seemingly "difficult" situation. My husband earned a Silver Star, among other medals during Vietnam, 1967-69. He told Pres..."It ain't like your in the middle of a f***ing jungle, facing an invisible enemy with AK47's! Or seeing your radio man step on a landmine"...

It's all perspective...You learn to overcome fear, angst, personalities, etc.

I was told by a father of a player on my sons team that he needed to be prepared to get his a$$ chewed out. I told my son the story and like Roothogg66 I told him it wasn't personal it is business,  not to take anything said personal and if he would just sit back and think about what they are saying he would probably laugh about it. When fall practice started it was nonstop, there was nothing he did that was correct. One time the pitching coach took him and a teammate in to the weight room to show them how he wanted them to do a lift. The coach was showing the other player how to do his lift and my son sat in the seat of the machine that he was going to use, the coach turned to him and said, "Did I tell you to sit down!". My son jumped up, stood at attention and said no sir. The coach was still working with the other player and turned around a few minutes later and said to my son, "Are you ever gonna start your lift!". When he told me that I couldn't stop laughing. He said it wasn't funny and I told him it wasn't funny to him because he took it personally. Told him that the coach was trying to make him uncomfortable and wants to see how you handle all the "abuse".  He wants to see how you handle pressure now not when he calls you to the mound with bases loaded no outs. He wants you to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Son never told me anything else, but I have heard stories from other parents that would make you cringe. When I would tell my son and ask him if he heard anything he just says, I doubt it was said like that, and even if he did coach was just trying to get a reaction, player took it too personal. Amazing how attitudes change after 3 years.

Hope he can work through it, tell to not take it personally and keep working hard. If he can get through it he will probably have a different perspective in a few years.

RJM posted:

This is from a motivational speech by Randy Pausch ...

The coach really gave you a hard time this week. It’s because he cares. If he didn’t care he would be ignoring you. The walls weren’t out there to keep us out. They’re there to see how badly we want it.

it’s possible the coach's act is to run him off. But it could be to motivate him. It’s why it’s important to talk to the coach if he believes he is being run off. He could be very wrong.

One of the things I like to consider is would I work for this man a manager in the real world? In my mind that is fair question. If the answer is no why would I want to pay to play for him? There is some an overwhelming ability in the sports world to just defer to the coach...as he is some kind of special being.

I honestly don't get it. Lets motivate the player by seeing how shitty he can be treated before he wants leave? Keep in mind I don't care if the coach is nice guy or not, I care about being clear in your message, holding people accountable to the program and being honest with your people.

You can be a tough, hard nosed, no nonsense coach and not be an asshole.

greatgame posted:

I was told by a father of a player on my sons team that he needed to be prepared to get his a$$ chewed out. I told my son the story and like Roothogg66 I told him it wasn't personal it is business,  not to take anything said personal and if he would just sit back and think about what they are saying he would probably laugh about it. When fall practice started it was nonstop, there was nothing he did that was correct. One time the pitching coach took him and a teammate in to the weight room to show them how he wanted them to do a lift. The coach was showing the other player how to do his lift and my son sat in the seat of the machine that he was going to use, the coach turned to him and said, "Did I tell you to sit down!". My son jumped up, stood at attention and said no sir. The coach was still working with the other player and turned around a few minutes later and said to my son, "Are you ever gonna start your lift!". When he told me that I couldn't stop laughing. He said it wasn't funny and I told him it wasn't funny to him because he took it personally. Told him that the coach was trying to make him uncomfortable and wants to see how you handle all the "abuse".  He wants to see how you handle pressure now not when he calls you to the mound with bases loaded no outs. He wants you to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Son never told me anything else, but I have heard stories from other parents that would make you cringe. When I would tell my son and ask him if he heard anything he just says, I doubt it was said like that, and even if he did coach was just trying to get a reaction, player took it too personal. Amazing how attitudes change after 3 years.

Hope he can work through it, tell to not take it personally and keep working hard. If he can get through it he will probably have a different perspective in a few years.

 

 

I relate this, again, to boot camp. Upon arrival, there is nothing you can possibly do right. Even if you do everything perfectly, it won't be "right." The story I tell is on the first day of boot camp, we were required to clean the barracks. We did so. They were spotless. Then they inspect and find hundreds of "hits" - things that are inadequate. Fast forward a month and the same cleaning job is inspected and found acceptable. Bottom line is, with this type of coaching, everything you do is going to be found by the coach to be "wrong" - for the time being. It's an old-school "break 'em down and build 'em up mentality."

old_school posted:

RJM posted:

This is from a motivational speech by Randy Pausch ...

The coach really gave you a hard time this week. It’s because he cares. If he didn’t care he would be ignoring you. The walls weren’t out there to keep us out. They’re there to see how badly we want it.

it’s possible the coach's act is to run him off. But it could be to motivate him. It’s why it’s important to talk to the coach if he believes he is being run off. He could be very wrong.

One of the things I like to consider is would I work for this man a manager in the real world? In my mind that is fair question. If the answer is no why would I want to pay to play for him? There is some an overwhelming ability in the sports world to just defer to the coach...as he is some kind of special being.

I honestly don't get it. Lets motivate the player by seeing how shitty he can be treated before he wants leave? Keep in mind I don't care if the coach is nice guy or not, I care about being clear in your message, holding people accountable to the program and being honest with your people.

You can be a tough, hard nosed, no nonsense coach and not be an asshole.

A lot of kids playing college sports are finding the sport a challenge for the first time in their life. They may be told they’re doing it wrong or failing for the first time in their life. Some kids don’t handle this well. They only think the coach is a jerk. 

At the end of the day, it's about school and an education....not baseball.  My son's HC has been much like your son's for the 3 years he's been there.....not just to my son, but basically to every kid in the program.  It's gotten tougher and tougher to attend games....EVERY single parent has the same story about the crap their kids put up with.  Couple that with both on-field and off the field incidents between the coach and players and it's become painful to watch.    I actually told my son at the end of last season if he wanted to "walk away and enjoy his Senior year" that I'd be all for it.   He decided to stay....practice starts today so we'll see how it goes.   It's no different than any other job.....if your boss is a jerk, you either 1) put up with it as long as you can or 2) if it gets too bad, you leave.   It happens all the time....coaches "love" every kid when they're recruiting them....but once you get into the program, the coach is there for one reason.....to win games.  Some coaches don't click with certain players.....some coaches are just POS to everyone lol.   It's a tough decision, but not worth wasting 3 years of his life being miserable.   Consider all options and make a decision based on that

old_school posted:

RJM posted:

This is from a motivational speech by Randy Pausch ...

The coach really gave you a hard time this week. It’s because he cares. If he didn’t care he would be ignoring you. The walls weren’t out there to keep us out. They’re there to see how badly we want it.

it’s possible the coach's act is to run him off. But it could be to motivate him. It’s why it’s important to talk to the coach if he believes he is being run off. He could be very wrong.

One of the things I like to consider is would I work for this man a manager in the real world? In my mind that is fair question. If the answer is no why would I want to pay to play for him? There is some an overwhelming ability in the sports world to just defer to the coach...as he is some kind of special being.

I honestly don't get it. Lets motivate the player by seeing how shitty he can be treated before he wants leave? Keep in mind I don't care if the coach is nice guy or not, I care about being clear in your message, holding people accountable to the program and being honest with your people.

You can be a tough, hard nosed, no nonsense coach and not be an asshole.

I'm with you, man. I am not young, and have done some  pretty tough work with some pretty hard men at times, but I don't get the whole "acting like an a-hole" thing. I believe in the power of positivity. Doesn't mean that there can't be discipline, but..

  Best coach I ever had, in any sport, almost never raised his voice. The worst one wouldn't stop screaming. It's almost like he tried to compensate with volume for his lack of knowledge and ability to teach.

Great thread.  I feel for OP's son - that sucks.  Baseball is supposed to be fun right?

I do have to bring out the old famous Casey Stengel quote though:  "The key to being a good manager is to keep the players who hate me away from those who are still undecided."  One of my faves.

Tell the young man to keep the faith -- if it were easy, everyone would do it.  

roothog66 posted:

greatgame posted:

 

I relate this, again, to boot camp. Upon arrival, there is nothing you can possibly do right. Even if you do everything perfectly, it won't be "right." The story I tell is on the first day of boot camp, we were required to clean the barracks. We did so. They were spotless. Then they inspect and find hundreds of "hits" - things that are inadequate. Fast forward a month and the same cleaning job is inspected and found acceptable. Bottom line is, with this type of coaching, everything you do is going to be found by the coach to be "wrong" - for the time being. It's an old-school "break 'em down and build 'em up mentality."

Yes.  But while that approach is expected (and maybe necessary) in military settings, do you think it ought to be used in college baseball?  (Asking seriously--would like to know what you think.)  

I have worked for some incredibly demanding bosses who I respect, admire and learned a great deal from.  But even so, I think every one of them would have been more effective if s/he had been a little "softer." 

Had a steady diet of extreme verbal abuse and occasional physical abuse in HS football.  Made a promise to myself to avoid those coaches for my kids - so far, so good.  

OK. Don't confuse two issues. One issue is whether it's right or whether you would want your kid playing under such a coach. The issue I'm trying to address is what to do about it when you are already in that situation. For the record, it's not a style I like or would recommend my own kid to play under. However, once your there, you either figure out how to deal with it or you leave. Leaving has plenty of consequences to be considered. If a coach is otherwise fair with playing time, isn't doing anything physically abusive, develops talent, etc AND you can learn how to deal with this style of coaching, staying is often the better option. YMMV.

roothog66 posted:

OK. Don't confuse two issues. One issue is whether it's right or whether you would want your kid playing under such a coach. The issue I'm trying to address is what to do about it when you are already in that situation. For the record, it's not a style I like or would recommend my own kid to play under. However, once your there, you either figure out how to deal with it or you leave. Leaving has plenty of consequences to be considered. If a coach is otherwise fair with playing time, isn't doing anything physically abusive, develops talent, etc AND you can learn how to deal with this style of coaching, staying is often the better option. YMMV.

That makes a lot of sense to me. 

(Although I do find as I get older, I have less and less tolerance for bosses who are screamers.  I think that is true for most folks.  Somehow it's the youngsters who are expected to take having their characters molded.)

I'm obviously in the minority but I have no problem with my son being coached by a screaming coach.  But I think you need to separate the coach who is screaming for a reason and the coach whos it just screaming. My son's program expects to make it to the NCAA tournament every year, with the goal of making it to Omaha. They are trying to put you in uncomfortable situations so that you are able to deal with the pressure. However I understand that each player deals with these types of coaches differently. We had a pitcher who came in with my son, the HC said that he had the potential to be one of the best to wear their uniform. Currently there are 19 alums in the majors. He was the friday started his freshman year. That lasted 4 weeks. He was the Friday started his sophomore year that lasted 3 weeks. When everything was going good he was great, when things weren't he feel apart. I had several conversations with his father. He told me some of the comments that the pitching coach said to him. They would make a NY taxi driver blush. I told him that was the type of coach that I responded to, because I would show him how wrong he was. He said he was the same, but that wasn't his son. He was drafted in the first round last year and had a great 1st year in the minors. The word on the street is that he had to get away from the college coaches, I live in the same town so I know several people who knows the family. So now my questions are, did the college coaches put too much pressure on him so he could not perform or did the pressure prepare him for the next level?

Sounds like the big time college coach was 1 trick pony, maybe he cost himself a stud by not being able to adjust....I have learned managing many people many years to use lots of methods, be clear and be open minded to new ideas. 

I had a huge ego as young manager, I became a much smarter more successful business owner when I lost (had it kicked off my shoulder) the ego. 

Life has a way of softening the edges 

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies, and thank you Qhead for the great quote... I needed that laugh.  It’s been a tough day, I heard from my son a few hours ago.  He met with his coach and decided to walk away.  He’s done with baseball.  I’m really sad, but also proud of him.  Transferring isn’t an option for him because he is in a great school for his major.  I’ll explain what happened in a second, but wanted to say one thing first... there’s been a lot of talk here about the pros and cons of tough coaches... so I do want to be clear that my son has had tough coaches... the kind who scream and yell and somehow in their madness are making you a better, stronger player.  I’m ok with that... I actually like that tough love approach.  I remember one game in HS - my son was throwing a no hitter shut out, but had a few bad moments in the 6th inning and walked the 7th and 8th batters.  It didn’t matter how well he was pitching or that we were up by a lot... his high school coach started screaming, threw his clipboard and shattered it because “you never walk the bottom of the lineup!!!”  They laugh about it today, and that lesson always stuck with him.  Despite his tough demeanor, at the end of the day, that high school coach cared for his players, and he paid attention to all of them... even the ones who never played.  In fact my son spent 45 minutes on the phone with him the other day getting advice on his current situation.  He was there for him.  In contrast, my son’s college coach isn’t like that... he’s demeaning and belittling and acts like you aren’t worth his time.  He has a few select players that get all his attention, but the rest are pretty much ignored.  After my son’s injury, I think this guy looked at him as damaged goods.  He wasn’t worth his time anymore.  So imo, tough coaches are good.... mean coaches are not.  Ok, back to what happened today... my son met with his HC and told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there.  The coach said, “this may not be the right fit for you, you’d probably be better off somewhere else.”  My son put his uniform on the desk and walked out.  There were no words of encouragement, nothing.  About an hour later, my son received a text from him.  I’ll let you read what it said in my son’s own words:

“After an hour went by he sent me a text saying how a lot of people feel the same way I do but they aren’t as mature as me and aren’t strong and brave enough to confront him about it. He said he respected that. He also said that there’s a lot of people on the team right now that he believes should do what I did but are afraid of doing it. After I went in there and after he texted me, it felt as if a 100lb backpack was just taken off my shoulders and I can finally breathe.  I’m sorry if this makes you guys upset, but in the end I feel a lot better than I have in awhile.  It took me until all this came up to realize that I haven’t been happy.  I’ve finally got some closure about this and it feels great. I’m gonna miss it but that’s why i’m going into this field, so I can stay around it. I love you and I’m sorry if you’re upset, but this is something I had to do, especially after hearing what he had to say.”

The tears are flowing down my cheeks re-reading his text.  He didn’t make the decision I wanted him to make, but he did what he felt was best.  And I’m proud of him for that. I don’t know what to think of a coach who has kids on his team that he doesn’t want.  Why recruit them if you don’t want them?  And why belittle them instead of just being honest and cutting them?  

This forum is wonderful.  Thank you everyone for your advice. I sure am going to miss watching my son play.  But I know he will be fine. 

My only experience is HS football, where I had to tolerate abusive coaching b/c there wasn't anywhere else to go.  I swallowed my anger and tried to redirect it into more weight work and conditioning.  However, if I could have left, I would have. 

I've always thought a good way of approaching the problem is to evaluate the coach as a person.  Is he a stable guy with a family, friends, etc?  Does he show love to the kids when he's not ripping them?  Does he ever engage in cruelty, as opposed to just chewing butt?  

One of my high school coaches was an undiagnosed alcoholic; another was an absolute loner with few close friends.  Neither was happy with themselves, and that's what took tough coaching over the top into nonsense and abuse.  

SUMOM3

Very proud of you son. Sounds like he will do great thing with his future!

I think this is a really important story and you have a son with a great head on his shoulders! I know you are so proud, and I would be too in your shoes. It sounds like he's got great things ahead of him. Best of luck to you guys!

That's unfortunate.  Sounds like the coach wanted to force him out, probably because of the injury.  Best wishes to your son.

If he led with .... told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there ... I wouldn’t expect any coach to respond any differently than the coach did. He also shouldn’t have brought other players into the conversation. 

Personally, I would've sat down with the HC, an AC I had a relationship with, and a captain. And just straight up asked "Is everything ok between us because I don't feel like it is for whatever reason and others are picking up on it as well." And take the conversation from there. Leading with... I'm not happy... kind of gave the coach his "out". 

On the other hand, it's good that he chose a school where baseball would take a backseat to academics. When it comes to D3 I think choosing a school for its academic reputation and having baseball as an added bonus is the best route to take. Only 10-15 kids are getting drafted from D3 every year. Put yourself in the best position to succeed beyond baseball at that point. 

SUMOM3 posted:

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies, and thank you Qhead for the great quote... I needed that laugh.  It’s been a tough day, I heard from my son a few hours ago.  He met with his coach and decided to walk away.  He’s done with baseball.  I’m really sad, but also proud of him.  Transferring isn’t an option for him because he is in a great school for his major.  I’ll explain what happened in a second, but wanted to say one thing first... there’s been a lot of talk here about the pros and cons of tough coaches... so I do want to be clear that my son has had tough coaches... the kind who scream and yell and somehow in their madness are making you a better, stronger player.  I’m ok with that... I actually like that tough love approach.  I remember one game in HS - my son was throwing a no hitter shut out, but had a few bad moments in the 6th inning and walked the 7th and 8th batters.  It didn’t matter how well he was pitching or that we were up by a lot... his high school coach started screaming, threw his clipboard and shattered it because “you never walk the bottom of the lineup!!!”  They laugh about it today, and that lesson always stuck with him.  Despite his tough demeanor, at the end of the day, that high school coach cared for his players, and he paid attention to all of them... even the ones who never played.  In fact my son spent 45 minutes on the phone with him the other day getting advice on his current situation.  He was there for him.  In contrast, my son’s college coach isn’t like that... he’s demeaning and belittling and acts like you aren’t worth his time.  He has a few select players that get all his attention, but the rest are pretty much ignored.  After my son’s injury, I think this guy looked at him as damaged goods.  He wasn’t worth his time anymore.  So imo, tough coaches are good.... mean coaches are not.  Ok, back to what happened today... my son met with his HC and told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there.  The coach said, “this may not be the right fit for you, you’d probably be better off somewhere else.”  My son put his uniform on the desk and walked out.  There were no words of encouragement, nothing.  About an hour later, my son received a text from him.  I’ll let you read what it said in my son’s own words:

“After an hour went by he sent me a text saying how a lot of people feel the same way I do but they aren’t as mature as me and aren’t strong and brave enough to confront him about it. He said he respected that. He also said that there’s a lot of people on the team right now that he believes should do what I did but are afraid of doing it. After I went in there and after he texted me, it felt as if a 100lb backpack was just taken off my shoulders and I can finally breathe.  I’m sorry if this makes you guys upset, but in the end I feel a lot better than I have in awhile.  It took me until all this came up to realize that I haven’t been happy.  I’ve finally got some closure about this and it feels great. I’m gonna miss it but that’s why i’m going into this field, so I can stay around it. I love you and I’m sorry if you’re upset, but this is something I had to do, especially after hearing what he had to say.”

The tears are flowing down my cheeks re-reading his text.  He didn’t make the decision I wanted him to make, but he did what he felt was best.  And I’m proud of him for that. I don’t know what to think of a coach who has kids on his team that he doesn’t want.  Why recruit them if you don’t want them?  And why belittle them instead of just being honest and cutting them?  

This forum is wonderful.  Thank you everyone for your advice. I sure am going to miss watching my son play.  But I know he will be fine. 

I am so sorry that your son had to lose his love for the game because of one guy. That coach should know the effect he has had.  What you mentioned is key.  I remember a tough season with a horrible coach and one of the boys on my son’s team referenced the coach from the year before...also tough.  He said, it was ok when Coach XYZ  screamed at us, because we knew he loved us.  That is the key. If you can’t balance your toughness with making sure the kids know you care, you need to change your approach, or quit coaching.

RJM posted:

If he led with .... told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there ... I wouldn’t expect any coach to respond any differently than the coach did. He also shouldn’t have brought other players into the conversation. 

This sounds like a coach who has quit learning and being introspective IMO.  It’s arrogance, which 9 times out of 10 isn’t good for anyone.  The coach needs to look at himself and realize that maybe the way he is approaching things isn’t having the effect he intends. Everyone can still learn.

Sorry to hear the journey has taken a new path.  I would not defend a coach like that but I must appreciate the follow up.  He could have left your son hanging but had enough courtesy or respect for your son to send him the text.  I can promise you this, the text will stand out in your son's mind as a life lesson longer than the belittling events.   He will use that some day in dealing with someone else.  Closure is a good thing.

On the question, why would he recruit someone he did not want.  The recruiting process is a two-way street.  Having a son who is a college recruiter for softball, I hear his side of it.  he gets a glimpse into a kid's life but can't always tell the work ethic or attitude or how parents deal with life situations ....etc.  he only sees them sometimes on the field and some HS or travel coaches will not tell the truth about a player or their parents.  He has had to encourage some to move on after a year because once they were there they just did not fit for various reasons.  Some have left because they felt they did not fit.  He has always tried to help them find where they fit even if it is a competitor.  Again, I will say recruiting is dating and some times the dating process is long and sometimes it is not long enough to really find out what you have.  Sometimes, it is just not a good fit.

Again, glad your son sees the big picture and made the right choice on schools for his long-term goals.  And thanks for sharing your hurt.  I promise that will help some other parent along the journey and isn't that why we are here.  To help someone along this journey of baseball.

It was a mature decision. I've seen guys keep playing well after it stopped being fun for them simply because they just felt playing ball was wht they wer supposed to do.

SUMOM3 posted:

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies, and thank you Qhead for the great quote... I needed that laugh.  It’s been a tough day, I heard from my son a few hours ago.  He met with his coach and decided to walk away.  He’s done with baseball.  I’m really sad, but also proud of him.  Transferring isn’t an option for him because he is in a great school for his major.  I’ll explain what happened in a second, but wanted to say one thing first... there’s been a lot of talk here about the pros and cons of tough coaches... so I do want to be clear that my son has had tough coaches... the kind who scream and yell and somehow in their madness are making you a better, stronger player.  I’m ok with that... I actually like that tough love approach.  I remember one game in HS - my son was throwing a no hitter shut out, but had a few bad moments in the 6th inning and walked the 7th and 8th batters.  It didn’t matter how well he was pitching or that we were up by a lot... his high school coach started screaming, threw his clipboard and shattered it because “you never walk the bottom of the lineup!!!”  They laugh about it today, and that lesson always stuck with him.  Despite his tough demeanor, at the end of the day, that high school coach cared for his players, and he paid attention to all of them... even the ones who never played.  In fact my son spent 45 minutes on the phone with him the other day getting advice on his current situation.  He was there for him.  In contrast, my son’s college coach isn’t like that... he’s demeaning and belittling and acts like you aren’t worth his time.  He has a few select players that get all his attention, but the rest are pretty much ignored.  After my son’s injury, I think this guy looked at him as damaged goods.  He wasn’t worth his time anymore.  So imo, tough coaches are good.... mean coaches are not.  Ok, back to what happened today... my son met with his HC and told him how he was feeling - that he wasn’t happy with how he and others were being treated, that it wasn’t fun for him anymore and he was questioning being there.  The coach said, “this may not be the right fit for you, you’d probably be better off somewhere else.”  My son put his uniform on the desk and walked out.  There were no words of encouragement, nothing.  About an hour later, my son received a text from him.  I’ll let you read what it said in my son’s own words:

“After an hour went by he sent me a text saying how a lot of people feel the same way I do but they aren’t as mature as me and aren’t strong and brave enough to confront him about it. He said he respected that. He also said that there’s a lot of people on the team right now that he believes should do what I did but are afraid of doing it. After I went in there and after he texted me, it felt as if a 100lb backpack was just taken off my shoulders and I can finally breathe.  I’m sorry if this makes you guys upset, but in the end I feel a lot better than I have in awhile.  It took me until all this came up to realize that I haven’t been happy.  I’ve finally got some closure about this and it feels great. I’m gonna miss it but that’s why i’m going into this field, so I can stay around it. I love you and I’m sorry if you’re upset, but this is something I had to do, especially after hearing what he had to say.”

The tears are flowing down my cheeks re-reading his text.  He didn’t make the decision I wanted him to make, but he did what he felt was best.  And I’m proud of him for that. I don’t know what to think of a coach who has kids on his team that he doesn’t want.  Why recruit them if you don’t want them?  And why belittle them instead of just being honest and cutting them?  

This forum is wonderful.  Thank you everyone for your advice. I sure am going to miss watching my son play.  But I know he will be fine. 

ok now I'm getting teary eyed.  Hate to see a young person so upset and miserable!  I am glad he made the decision that was right for him.  I'd bet that within a week (heck 2 days) he'll be saying - what baseball team?  

Sumom3, I'm sorry your son went through this, but it sounds as if he handled it well and will end up stronger for it.  It's a shame, though, that the coach couldn't have had an actual conversation with him earlier that might have cleared the air for both.

A couple of months back I got raked over the coals in another thread on this sitefor suggesting that a college coach who had more players than he wanted on his roster could decide to make things unpleasant for players he wanted to leave.  I essentially was told that it was outrageous to even suggest a coach might do that.  Just sayin'...

If nothing else, this thread has made me appreciate my son's coaching staff. They have had fantastic results, yet don't have to resort to belittling players, and have players that are happy campers, for the most part. 

I have no problem with coaches that are demanding, or that hand out discipline when warranted. I just don't get creating a negative atmosphere. Sucks the spirit out of a team.

Lots of great comments in this thread. 

With two boys playing college ball, we've sadly seen it all from coaches.  IMHO, screaming is just screaming, it's not coaching.  All the other boorish behavior including running kids off programs really bothers me.

Coaches have a tremendous opportunity to be a life changer and a mentor at this stage.  My oldest's coach understood that and did an awesome job helping kids stay on track towards graduation, plan semester course schedules, work with them on career planning, etc.  And he is an excellent baseball coach.  My youngest's coach is a screamer, bat thrower, trash can kicker, etc.  And he remains sub .500 for his career...maybe that catches up to him.  But for now, it makes the baseball miserable for most of the players and the turnover continues to be way too high.

Glad the OP's son seems to have found the best resolution for him.  In an effort to add perspective for those who may find this thread as guidance in similar situations, i will add...

Right or wrong, this type of coaching "style" is not uncommon in college baseball.  I think it is sometimes somewhat by design and sometimes not.  But the fact is, a player should be ready to deal with it and still find satisfaction in his college baseball career.  I think, quite often, players who are capable but not top recruits (the majority) don't have the luxury of hand picking a school that has the best of everything, including a coach personality that they will mesh well with.  Also, coaches will, of course, put on their best positive faces for the recruiting courtship and then get down to business in their own fashion once the player arrives.  Often, this is not the same personality.  So many players find themselves in a similar circumstance, perhaps not to the extreme.  

The good news is that when this happens, the players (and often assistant coach(s) ) rally around each other and become the bond.  This is where a player can turn for positive support.  Then, it's just a matter of figuring out how to navigate the coach's personality and win playing time.  Don't take it personal.  Deal with it as the next (often constant) hurdle.  I'm not saying sticking with it is always the right choice.  Sounds like the OP's son made the right choice for him by letting go.  But for many, this is just another hurdle to be overcome, like so many they have jumped before and so many yet to come.  

SUMOM3:  I almost teared up reading your son's text. I'm so happy that he did what was best for him, and he is very lucky to have great parents to support him. 

I'm going to add a new perspective to the broader conversation about tough coaches. Education and overall mental health/happiness should be the priority for most college players. The reality is that the vast majority of college players will never play after college, so their focus in college should be education. When a player is suffering at the hands of a mean coach, he has to decide whether he should stick it out, quit, or transfer to a new team. If he's at a top program and is on course to go pro, then sticking it out might be worth it. If it's pretty clear his future career is not in baseball, then the misery may not be worth it. OP's son clearly felt the misery was not worth it and it sounds like that was the best decision for him. 

As someone else said, there is a difference between tough and mean. Sounds like this coach was intentionally mean to OP's son and other players for whatever reason (perhaps to force them out, but the reason is irrelevant). I personally think mean is stupid; you can build character and teach without being mean. That being said, the reality is there are mean coaches out there and each player has to decide whether he wants to deal with it.    

Some of the advice that has been given here equates to "players should always tough it out because it builds character" and "kids should never quit." I strongly disagree with that philosophy if a kid is dealing with a mean coach who is causing the kid to be literally miserable. That's where the mental health priority comes into play. There are times when it is truly not healthy for a person to stay in a stressful situation. College should be a fun experience that prepares the student for the rest of their life. In an ideal situation, baseball (and the coaches) help do both. When it doesn't, and baseball makes the kid miserable, a parent should never encourage them to "just stick it out because it builds character." That attitude does not work for everyone and can lead to serious mental health issues if it gets to an extreme. College athletes have to be tough to even get that far, and it's not a sign of weakness if a kid quits for a good reason. Sometimes quitting is an informed decision to remove unhealthy (and unnecessary) stress from your life. Doing that allows you to put your energy into succeding in other areas of your life, like education.  

Some thoughts.  First, let your son know that regardless of what he decides, you are behind him.  Secondly, it is time for your son to decide how much of this is the coach and how much of this is him.  I know that this sounds harsh but the truth often is that when a student is in a tough part of their progress toward a degree, they start to get tired.  When they get tired, they sometimes don't do well with comments or actions of others who they want support from.  For example a coach.  

My daughter wanted to come home after one semester of college.  She loved the game but college was a lot different.  She loved her coach but was the target of some on the team since she was a freshman and during fall ball, starting.  If you have ever heard the song, "Dream Big," it is a powerful song.  The song is by Ryan Shupe and the Rubber Band.  Have your son find the lyrics and listen to the song.  

Zia2021 posted:

... I personally think mean is stupid; you can build character and teach without being mean. That being said, the reality is there are mean coaches out there and each player has to decide whether he wants to deal with it.    

Some of the advice that has been given here equates to "players should always tough it out because it builds character" and "kids should never quit." I strongly disagree with that philosophy if a kid is dealing with a mean coach who is causing the kid to be literally miserable. That's where the mental health priority comes into play. There are times when it is truly not healthy for a person to stay in a stressful situation. College should be a fun experience that prepares the student for the rest of their life. In an ideal situation, baseball (and the coaches) help do both. When it doesn't, and baseball makes the kid miserable, a parent should never encourage them to "just stick it out because it builds character." That attitude does not work for everyone and can lead to serious mental health issues if it gets to an extreme. College athletes have to be tough to even get that far, and it's not a sign of weakness if a kid quits for a good reason. Sometimes quitting is an informed decision to remove unhealthy (and unnecessary) stress from your life. Doing that allows you to put your energy into succeding in other areas of your life, like education.  

Zia, a few things...

First, I agree with most of what you said.

Second, I think your statement is stretching the message a bit from many of us... none of us are saying a kid should always tough it out and should never quit.  For example, I specifically said I think in the case of the OP, it sounds like the player made the right choice for him.  I think everyone agrees if the case is extreme and/or the player is actually miserable on a regular basis, it's not worth it.  

HOWEVER...

From what I recall, your son has tools and is getting early attention.  You have become pretty well connected with what's going on with the current recruiting scene and you are an intelligent person.  You have found this site to be the great asset that it is.  My suggestion is that you put a good bit of focus in the coming months on researching realistic expectations when it comes to what the stress level of a typical college baseball player is (balancing school and baseball and sometimes work, constantly competing and fighting for his playing time/position while trying to find adequate study time to succeed in the academic aspect, trying to find sufficient social time and being willing to sacrifice at least a significant portion of that aspect, adhering to the HC directive of going to play a heavy summer college schedule after having been consumed with practices, workouts , games, studies, cafeteria food, no down time, no family time for the previous nine months, etc. all the while, trying to learn how to live on his own for the first time).  Even if he has a great coach that uses all the "right" techniques and displays genuine concern for his players, there is still often conflict between the coach's priorities (have his players best prepared to win games) and the student athlete's objectives (to also be successful in the classroom).  The college experience for the baseball player is not going to be the "fun experience" in the same sense that the typical student has.  If a student athlete, particularly a baseball player, expects the college experience to be this big bundle of "fun and stress free" living, he has very unrealistic expectations and will be set up for failure.  Stress will be there on a fairly regular basis, regardless of the coach.  Fun usually comes in the form of comradery with the group of other players struggling with the same stresses and challenges and that fun becomes heightened when they are actually able to do so while performing well and winning among all the chaos.  Even in that comradery, there is the juxtaposition of the serious competitive battle among each other for precious starting/playing time while at the same time, pulling for each other as teammates.  On top of all this, I would take a wild guess that your son's major is not likely to be a particularly easy one.  Yes, the baseball part is still a game but at this point, has taken a giant step toward being a full time job and is also far more competitive and time consuming than what the HS player is used to and expects.  Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

cabbagedad posted:

 

 Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

This the kind of comment I really don't understand. Why should he subject himself to that? He wouldn't have to in the corporate world, at least not outwardly and certainly not in light he has described things. Plus the coach doesn't want him, he made that clear by his actions and then again by his conversation and follow up.

I have suggestion for the coach, man up, call the boy (remember he is 19 and the coach in theory is a grown mature adult) into your office, tell him the problem, what is not acceptable and what needs to happen moving forward...or cut him loose.

Don't be 30 or 40 50 year old hiding behind your job title, man the hell up and deal with an uncomfortable situation like an adult. This not to much to ask for and the fact that any coach doesn't do that is a poor reflection on the coach as person and school as an entity.

This is basic common sense and communication 101. He doesn't have to be nice he only has to be professional.

old_school posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

 Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

This the kind of comment I really don't understand. Why should he subject himself to that? He wouldn't have to in the corporate world, at least not outwardly and certainly not in light he has described things. Plus the coach doesn't want him, he made that clear by his actions and then again by his conversation and follow up.

I have suggestion for the coach, man up, call the boy (remember he is 19 and the coach in theory is a grown mature adult) into your office, tell him the problem, what is not acceptable and what needs to happen moving forward...or cut him loose.

Don't be 30 or 40 50 year old hiding behind your job title, man the hell up and deal with an uncomfortable situation like an adult. This not to much to ask for and the fact that any coach doesn't do that is a poor reflection on the coach as person and school as an entity.

This is basic common sense and communication 101. He doesn't have to be nice he only has to be professional.

I think you need to change your screen name. 

Just having fun, not trying to pick a fight

old_school posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

 Dealing with a nasty, temperamental or mean coach (which, again, happens more than many think) is really just another item on the long checklist of challenges to overcome.

This the kind of comment I really don't understand. Why should he subject himself to that? He wouldn't have to in the corporate world, at least not outwardly and certainly not in light he has described things. Plus the coach doesn't want him, he made that clear by his actions and then again by his conversation and follow up.

I have suggestion for the coach, man up, call the boy (remember he is 19 and the coach in theory is a grown mature adult) into your office, tell him the problem, what is not acceptable and what needs to happen moving forward...or cut him loose.

Don't be 30 or 40 50 year old hiding behind your job title, man the hell up and deal with an uncomfortable situation like an adult. This not to much to ask for and the fact that any coach doesn't do that is a poor reflection on the coach as person and school as an entity.

This is basic common sense and communication 101. He doesn't have to be nice he only has to be professional.

Again, I am not referring to the coach or player in the OP.  I have said several times now that I think he made the right decision for himself in that scenario.  If you look at the full context of my post, I was trying to help Zia (who is not the OP) with realistic expectations in regards to the type and degree of "fun" and level of stress a college baseball player typically has.

College coaches yell.  Watch any football or basketball sidelines.  Sure it's much worse during a practice session, don't see why baseball would be any different

The OP son had an issue with it.  Probably a combination of sensitivity on the side of the player and boorish behavior by the coach.

The coach's text response makes it appear that he's not an ignorant prick, so take it for what it is.  Maybe a certain link in the chain was removed, which was the coach's objective.

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

PABaseball posted:

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

IMO, conduct that would get a manager fired (or put on probation) at most companies = abusive.  I don't think any of the business school research finds that screaming, throwing things, etc. is an effective way to motivate people or build cohesive teams. 

Maybe sports teams ought to be governed like military units?  I'm willing to listen to that argument (seriously), but it doesn't seem self-evident to me.

PABaseball posted:

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

1/2 the players and parents on my son's HS team strongly dislike the coach, he does this, doesn't do that, so on.  Those are the kids who don't get a lot of PT.

The other 1/2, who play, speak highly of him. 

I can say he reached out to my son many times this summer, asking how recruiting was going and what he could do to help.  I'm sure the coaches who came to watch our HS games were also there because of him.  One offer my son received was a direct result of his feedback.  

People are going to play the victim card when they don't get what they want.  Unfortunately, this is the direction our culture has been moving towards for several years.

CTbballDad posted:

PABaseball posted:

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

1/2 the players and parents on my son's HS team strongly dislike the coach, he does this, doesn't do that, so on.  Those are the kids who don't get a lot of PT.

The other 1/2, who play, speak highly of him. 

I can say he reached out to my son many times this summer, asking how recruiting was going and what he could do to help.  I'm sure the coaches who came to watch our HS games were also there because of him.  One offer my son received was a direct result of his feedback.  

People are going to play the victim card when they don't get what they want.  Unfortunately, this is the direction our culture has been moving towards for several years.

Your son's HS coach may be great and criticisms of him may be sour grapes--I have no idea.  But plenty of bad managers play favorites--the fact a manager treats some employees well doesn't prove that he isn't abusive to others.  (Again, I know nothing at all about the particular coach you're referring to.)  And if a coach is abusive but also supportive in other respects, that doesn't make the abuse ok.

I'm serious:  Does anyone know of any research that indicates screaming, etc. is effective as a management strategy?  Do you work at a company that would tolerate a manager who routinely yelled or threw things?  

Maybe sports is different.  But if so, why?  I don't expect to be treated at my job the way some routinely expect coaches to treat athletes.  But my job pays me to be there--if anything, don't they have a greater right to expect me to tolerate whatever they throw at me?  Or is the difference that I am an adult and can easily choose to work elsewhere?  

I don't know what business school research has to do with college baseball coaches. And comparing the workforce to college coaches is apples to oranges. Two completely different worlds. Even if one were to make the argument, the language and attitude on Wall street and in big banking, which is the arguably the highest level of the business industry, would beg to differ. 

Either way, the original post had nothing to do with screaming or throwing things. The original post referenced not watching bullpens, and speaking to the player in an unpleasant tone. Does it suck? Sure and many would agree the player made the right decision. But is it abuse? Not even close. And to her credit, the OP did not mention abuse once, just an unhappy son.

OK - here you go.  Augie Garrido was a great coach and teacher who would rip his teams when necessary (check YouTube).  His players loved him.  He cared about them, and made that clear.

Bobby Knight, though he won a lot of basketball games, is not like Augie Garrido.  A nasty, needlessly cruel person.  

I'd draw the line somewhere between those two.  

PABaseball posted:

I don't know what business school research has to do with college baseball coaches. And comparing the workforce to college coaches is apples to oranges. Two completely different worlds. Even if one were to make the argument, the language and attitude on Wall street and in big banking, which is the arguably the highest level of the business industry, would beg to differ. 

Either way, the original post had nothing to do with screaming or throwing things. The original post referenced not watching bullpens, and speaking to the player in an unpleasant tone. Does it suck? Sure and many would agree the player made the right decision. But is it abuse? Not even close. And to her credit, the OP did not mention abuse once, just an unhappy son

 

 

 

No disrespect intended, but you say sports are different--and that makes behavior ok that isn't tolerated in the workplace.  Why?  What about college sports makes it ok for coaches to act in ways businesses won't allow from managers?  

Wall Street , large law firms and a few other employers do tend to tolerate conduct others wouldn't (I mentioned this also in a post above).  I don't know many folks who would defend these as good models for the workplace, but they do exist.  They also rely heavily on burning out lower level employees in a few years and replacing them.  Granted, college sports teams can use the same model.  Does that make it a good way to operate?

I agree this has wandered off topic from the OP.  Still an interesting discussion and worth having, IMO.  If you don't agree, that's all right, too.  I've never known threads on this forum to limit themselves to single issues.

Not trying to provoke you at all.  Willing to have an online discussion if you want.  But can we agree that saying "people today complain too much" or "coaches have done it this way forever" doesn't justify the behaviors?  And so I ask again, why do we tolerate conduct from coaches that companies would not tolerate from managers?  Do we think the coaches are able to be more effective this way?  Do we think 15-22 year old males are too hard-headed to respond to other methods?  If you think it's ok for coaches to scream, belittle players in front of their peers, etc., then why?

OskiSD posted:

OK - here you go.  Augie Garrido was a great coach and teacher who would rip his teams when necessary (check YouTube).  His players loved him.  He cared about them, and made that clear.

Bobby Knight, though he won a lot of basketball games, is not like Augie Garrido.  A nasty, needlessly cruel person.  

I'd draw the line somewhere between those two.  

Good post.  I think "there is a difference... and I know it when I see it" is a fair response.  It's not going to be possible to draw up strict rules. 

Still interested (though others may not be) in why most of us would tolerate conduct by Garrido that we wouldn't tolerate from our bosses.  

Chico Escuela posted:

PABaseball posted:

I don't know what business school research has to do with college baseball coaches. And comparing the workforce to college coaches is apples to oranges. Two completely different worlds. Even if one were to make the argument, the language and attitude on Wall street and in big banking, which is the arguably the highest level of the business industry, would beg to differ. 

Either way, the original post had nothing to do with screaming or throwing things. The original post referenced not watching bullpens, and speaking to the player in an unpleasant tone. Does it suck? Sure and many would agree the player made the right decision. But is it abuse? Not even close. And to her credit, the OP did not mention abuse once, just an unhappy son

 

 

 

No disrespect intended, but you say sports are different--and that makes behavior ok that isn't tolerated in the workplace.  Why?  What about college sports makes it ok for coaches to act in ways businesses won't allow from managers?  

Wall Street , large law firms and a few other employers do tend to tolerate conduct others wouldn't (I mentioned this also in a post above).  I don't know many folks who would defend these as good models for the workplace, but they do exist.  They also rely heavily on burning out lower level employees in a few years and replacing them.  Granted, college sports teams can use the same model.  Does that make it a good way to operate?

I agree this has wandered off topic from the OP.  Still an interesting discussion and worth having, IMO.  If you don't agree, that's all right, too.  I've never known threads on this forum to limit themselves to single issues.

Not trying to provoke you at all.  Willing to have an online discussion if you want.  But can we agree that saying "people today complain too much" or "coaches have done it this way forever" doesn't justify the behaviors?  And so I ask again, why do we tolerate conduct from coaches that companies would not tolerate from managers?  Do we think the coaches are able to be more effective this way?  Do we think 15-22 year old males are too hard-headed to respond to other methods?  If you think it's ok for coaches to scream, belittle players in front of their peers, etc., then why?

Interesting questions, but I do believe it's probably apples and oranges.  Certainly not my level of expertise, but I'm sure there are employment laws that prevent the type of behavior you see in sports.  A college athlete is not an employee.

Perhaps there are some old cultural norms that allow the behavior you're questioning, but that's too deep for my simple mind.

CTbballDad posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

PABaseball posted:

 

 

 

Perhaps there are some old cultural norms that allow the behavior you're questioning, but that's too deep for my simple mind.

Dang!  I was hoping you could explain it to me!!  I think we do have different norms for coaches (I do, too).  But if I ask myself "do those behaviors motivate people better or help teams work better?," I think I have to say "no" based on my experience.  Which is kind of a paradox...    

OskiSD posted:

OK - here you go.  Augie Garrido was a great coach and teacher who would rip his teams when necessary (check YouTube).  His players loved him.  He cared about them, and made that clear.

Bobby Knight, though he won a lot of basketball games, is not like Augie Garrido.  A nasty, needlessly cruel person.  

I'd draw the line somewhere between those two.  

A lot of former Indiana players worship Bobby Knight. They say he taught them discipline, self management skills and to grow up. Plus, his players graduated. 

I don't think many of the "old school" tactics have a place and I would say just because some like a coach does not make it right.  I know women who say they love their husbands who beat them every night and live in that environment.  Success does not make a coach good so the examples that have been presented are still wrong.  Treat people right.

I really don't see how high school coaches get away with this stuff.  I have often wondered what would happen to a high school english teacher who broke into a tirade because kids made bad grades and dropped the f bomb and sh-- words while spitting chewing tobacco at their students feet.  Why do we accept it in the sports world?  I told a principal one time where I coached that if the football coach was still there when my son got there he could go ahead and expect a call to DCS or the Superintendant.  I won't take anything from a coach on the field toward my son in high school that I would take from a teacher.  And I know my wife would not because she is a DCS worker.  I have seen her confront parents in a parking lot so I know she would have no problem confronting a coach on a field whether it was toward our son or someone else.

College is another issue because that is his call not mine.  I believe he is my responsibility until he graduates from high school and then he has to make the big boy decisions on most things except the things I am paying for. 

In almost every college baseball environment half the players will fail and transfer or quit freshman or soph year. Many have never failed before. It can’t possible be they weren’t up to the task. It must be the coach’s fault. Failing as a freshman or soph as an athlete doesn’t necessarily mean the kid can’t play. If you think the competition to get recruited is stiff wait until it’s about getting on the field at college. 

To think this doesn't happen in the business world is a bit naive.  Especially what was described by the OP.  

If a coach takes any pride in a kid losing his love of baseball because of his coaching, he is a crappy coach. I agree with the person who said the coach should man up. If a kid isn’t making the cut, tell him why. Don’t hide behind poor treatment hoping they quit.  Be the kind of man you are expecting 18-22 year olds to be.

RJM posted:

In almost every college baseball environment half the players will fail and transfer or quit freshman or soph year. Many have never failed before. It can’t possible be they weren’t up to the task. It must be the coach’s fault. Failing as a freshman or soph as an athlete doesn’t necessarily mean the kid can’t play. If you think the competition to get recruited is stiff wait until it’s about getting on the field at college. 

Respectfully, I'd say you're changing the subject.  Do kids today need to be better at handling failure?  A lot of people think so.  No one in the thread has said we should blame coaches if our kids can't cut it, or if that coaches shouldn't hold players to high standards and let them know if they fail to meet them.

But why do we accept behavior from coaches that we would not from accept from business managers, teachers (as PitchingFan noted), or just about anyone else outside a military or correctional context?  Is it more effective?  Does it make a team cohere better?  

real green posted:

To think this doesn't happen in the business world is a bit naive.  Especially what was described by the OP.  

It happens, but no company would condone it.  No management training would suggest that it is effective or appropriate.  No business school would suggest managers act this way.  Why do we expect it from coaches? 

Yelling at employees isn't illegal (unless motivated by unlawful discrimination or it amounts to an actionable threat of physical harm).  Companies could decide to manage their workers the way Bobby Knight coached his basketball players.  A lot of employees would quit--maybe you'd need to pay extra to keep people on.  But if it's such a great way to motivate people and get them to work as a team, shouldn't some company in the Fortune 500 be rolling out this program to increase their productivity?  Not one of them is even considering it.  

CTbballDad posted:

PABaseball posted:

The word abusive needs to stop being thrown around. Too many coaches lose their jobs because players don't like the way they make them feel.  Just because a coach is mean, or cold, or intimidating does not mean he abuses his players. For every coach labeled "abusive" by a player there is probably a line of teammates, former players, and coaches ready stand behind him and defend him. Being rude, not watching bullpens, and speaking to a player in a unpleasant tone is nowhere near abusive. 

1/2 the players and parents on my son's HS team strongly dislike the coach, he does this, doesn't do that, so on.  Those are the kids who don't get a lot of PT.

The other 1/2, who play, speak highly of him. 

I can say he reached out to my son many times this summer, asking how recruiting was going and what he could do to help.  I'm sure the coaches who came to watch our HS games were also there because of him.  One offer my son received was a direct result of his feedback.  

People are going to play the victim card when they don't get what they want.  Unfortunately, this is the direction our culture has been moving towards for several years.

What I'm about to type is not directed at the OP or her sons situation.

That being said,  CTbballDad's HS survey post is spot on. Playing time always dictates coach evaluations. If your son doesn't play the HC is a clueless fool. If your son plays, he's fine. It's subjective and unfair but that's just how it is. 

Most parents don't understand what dictates playing time. Playing time is based on one simple rule: Coaches play the kids that will help them WIN. Period.

This is true at the HS level, Travel ball level and especially at the NCAA level. NCAA D1 HC Salaries start well into six figures and big program HC's make 1 Million+ . These guys are paid to WIN and will absolutely get FIRED if they don't.

It's a talent issue

It's simple. But the problem with that equation is that in the case of a kid not receiving playing time , The Parents are forced to face the reality that their kid may not be as talented as they thought. Most parents are unwilling or unable to accept that.

Some coaches just aren't very good at communicating. I've heard stories of some from friends and although at times my son's college coach and he were at odds about an issue, he was the first guy he went to see this week while back at Clemson. He really respects Coach Lee.

Sorry to hear about your son and this issue, keep us informed of what happens. I hope it doesn't drive him away from the game.

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

In almost every college baseball environment half the players will fail and transfer or quit freshman or soph year. Many have never failed before. It can’t possible be they weren’t up to the task. It must be the coach’s fault. Failing as a freshman or soph as an athlete doesn’t necessarily mean the kid can’t play. If you think the competition to get recruited is stiff wait until it’s about getting on the field at college. 

Respectfully, I'd say you're changing the subject.  Do kids today need to be better at handling failure?  A lot of people think so.  No one in the thread has said we should blame coaches if our kids can't cut it, or if that coaches shouldn't hold players to high standards and let them know if they fail to meet them.

But why do we accept behavior from coaches that we would not from accept from business managers, teachers (as PitchingFan noted), or just about anyone else outside a military or correctional context?  Is it more effective?  Does it make a team cohere better?  

There are tough coaches out there. My son had a jerk after the first coach took a different job. My experience from talking to other dads and stories my son told the jerk coaches aren’t as bad as the players who don’t cut it make them out to be. It’s also a matter of how much the player takes it personally. For these kids it’s the first time they’ve failed athletically. They have trouble accepting it’s partially on them. 

Some kids and their parents don’t understand college athletics is the real world. The coach is feeding his family and paying the mortgage based on what he can get out of his players. Failure means getting fired. Those players who don’t get it done are swept aside. It doesn’t mean they can’t play. It means they won’t be playing there. 

RJM posted:

OskiSD posted:

OK - here you go.  Augie Garrido was a great coach and teacher who would rip his teams when necessary (check YouTube).  His players loved him.  He cared about them, and made that clear.

Bobby Knight, though he won a lot of basketball games, is not like Augie Garrido.  A nasty, needlessly cruel person.  

I'd draw the line somewhere between those two.  

A lot of former Indiana players worship Bobby Knight. They say he taught them discipline, self management skills and to grow up. Plus, his players graduated. 

Beat me to it.  In addition to being a baseball player my son played AAU basketball at a fairly high level.  We used to play a team coached by a couple of ex-IU players.  One of the players was pivotal to the famous chair throwing incident.  Anyway, over the years I had the opportunity to get to know this player.  His coaching style was direct opposite of Bobby's but he spoke very highly of Bobby Knight.  Lots of respect for him.

Chico Escuela posted:

real green posted:

To think this doesn't happen in the business world is a bit naive.  Especially what was described by the OP.  

It happens, but no company would condone it.  No management training would suggest that it is effective or appropriate.  No business school would suggest managers act this way.  Why do we expect it from coaches? 

 

I actually had someone who was not my direct manager call me into his office and chew me up and down, yelling, spit spewing type of chew out.  I was doing some work in one of his stores (this is in retail) and one of his employees gave me some attitude that I did not appreciate so I let that employee know it.  The manager took offense to that as it was his store and his employee.  I sat there and took the chewing out.  Let him know I was sorry and we moved on.  In fact we went out for a beer the next day.  Thing is I was young in my career, just out of college and sports, and he was an ex-NFL player who came out of the old school coaching world.  At the time we both saw it as "normal".  I don't think I would stand for it today.  I will say in the retail world "management by intimidation" is not dead.  

Not sure how accurate the movie "Miracle" portrayed Herb Brooks and his actions to the players ... but those actions unified the team - and we know what that result was.

I know there are lots of folks who support Bob Knight - I've worked with a few Hoosiers in my day.  He does have lots of players who say really nice stuff about him.  

I still wouldn't want my son to play for a guy who hits his players and puts tampons in their lockers because they're "pussies."  Just my opinion.  

Different sports and the skills needed for each sport are different.  Football / Basketball... anger and rage can be used / harnessed for an advantage.  Not so sure that reaction helps a baseball player - or a golfer.  Personalities play into it as well... some respond to yelling - others need a pat on the back.  One style does not fit all, but both styles can be successful.   Think of the difference between Tom Landry / Jimmy Johnson ... Bill Parcells / Bill Bellichek ... Billy Martin / Joe Torre.  I had a wrestling coach that used to slap a wrestler  in the back of the head to wake them up before a match... not hard - not what anyone would consider abusive... but for me - it would be a distraction ...  I told him ... flat out ... the head thing doesn't work ... then I started getting it on the ass.  That didn't bother me.  Just saying - everyone, every situation is different.  A coach will use what works to get wins - until they keep losing.  

What a great topic this has turned into.  Many different perspectives based on what each individuals priorities are for their sons/daughters.  I find it fascinating that we will accept borderline physically/emotionally abusive behavior from coaches at all levels if they are "winners".  Now we will draw a line at the physical abuse, although we will waver on that line if they win enough, meaning administrators/AD's/fans....hard to know where the line is on emotional abuse because it is different for every parent/player combination and that is to be expected with everyone coming from a different perspective....But why do we allow winning  to be defined at the HS/D1,2,3 levels by only the score on the scoreboard?  Why do fans stop showing up for games if the scoreboard isn't in their favor often enough?  What makes a good coach? 

• Help develop players into solid, conscientious adults?
• Players show consistent progress toward a degree as a way to  hopefully better provide for themselves/family in the future?
• Teams are visible, active part of the community in which they play?
• Teams compete their tail off every time they step on the field and work their tail off to come out on top the next time after they fall short?

OR recruiting the best players to win the most games without really having to "coach" anything...

I am always amazed that a coach who does the former will lose his job because fans will stop showing up....and people will rally around the latter example solely because of the scoreboard...If I / you / we want coaching to change we must change how we define what makes coaches "winners"

No question Bob Knight and other “old school” coaches (I’ll avoid the word “abusive”) can be winners. But did their old school tactics make them successful?  Could Knight have won just as many games (or maybe more) if he had used a different approach?  Did he NEED to behave the way he did to win?

I keep saying it: If being a jerk is so successful, why isn’t there a single business school or management guru out there advocating it?  I think (?) we all agree that managing people in the working world isn’t supposed to work that way (although sometimes managers are jerks, too). So why do we expect something different from coaches?  

I think Newumpire nailed it. People are different, my son and daughter did not like to be yelled at. I responded to the yeller. It's like time out, worked for my daughter only had to do it once for a minute. If my dad would have put me in time out, I would have been like, "Let me get this straight, you're gonna put me in this comfortable chair for 1 minute per my age and I'm not gonna get a spanking, sweet sign me up!" 

As far as Bobby Knight, I would have no problem if he was my son's coach, but not sure he would like it. If Knight put a tampon in my locker, me and the guys I played with would have laughed so hard we would have had an aneurysm.

Agree with your definition of a good coach ...  but change takes time ... sometimes generations.   It is not just with coaching - it is with all social norms.   Mixed race marriages in the 60's were nearly unheard of ... now - at least in my neck of the woods - no one gives it a second thought.  Gay rights are making that transition now.  Slowly, the "old School" coach is fading as well.   Looking at the NFL, I find it difficult to find a screamer.   The likes of Sean McVeigh, Hugh Jackson, Bill Bellichek, Andy Ried, Todd Bowles.. are changing the way the game is coached.   Same in the NBA - Pop, Brad Stevens, Kerr, Doc, - In baseball ... Cora, Francona, Boone, Maddon, ... even ex players - Molitor, Mattingly ... maybe our grandkids will be benefators of the trickle down effect into College and HS ball once they see that there is a positive that translates to wins.

Chico Escuela posted:

I keep saying it: If being a jerk is so successful, why isn’t there a single business school or management guru out there advocating it?  I think (?) we all agree that managing people in the working world isn’t supposed to work that way (although sometimes managers are jerks, too). So why do we expect something different from coaches?  

Authoritative Management is what we are discussing.  Yes, it is still very common in the job market...  

Chico Escuela posted:

No question Bob Knight and other “old school” coaches (I’ll avoid the word “abusive”) can be winners. But did their old school tactics make them successful?  Could Knight have won just as many games (or maybe more) if he had used a different approach?  Did he NEED to behave the way he did to win?

I keep saying it: If being a jerk is so successful, why isn’t there a single business school or management guru out there advocating it?  I think (?) we all agree that managing people in the working world isn’t supposed to work that way (although sometimes managers are jerks, too). So why do we expect something different from coaches?  

OK, Chico, I'll throw this out there...

First, I think there are more than one ways to be successful.  Me, personally, I would say I am more progressive than old school but some of my players would probably disagree.

I am going to make an analogy to the military.  Of course, I am not trying to say it is the same level of importance or that losing has the same severity of consequences.  But there are many similarities, philosophies and perhaps an argument for old school tactics.  You have a large group of young men from widely varying backgrounds and levels of life experiences, mostly quite limited and not yet nearly prepared for what they are about to face.  They have to be whipped into shape in very short order and fully prepared to go out and do battle from the first day the war begins.  Having comradery and teamwork fully developed day one is an important but elusive goal.  So is full conditioning and exposure to as much simulated warfare as possible before the real thing begins.  Toughen them up and prepare them for anything and everything.  How does the military do this?  Pretty much the same way as the old school coaches do it.  I think the Herb Brooks analogy is really good.  Calculated breaking down of the individuals, along with purposeful development of resentment of the coach in effort to create team unity among the players.  Then push and push some more, beyond what they think they are capable of.  (Can't do that by coddling and telling they are all wonderful, just the way they are   )

I think many coaches use some of these tactics.  On the other hand, I also know that some coaches do it, not having a clue or specific plan.  It's just the way they are.  

NewUmpire posted:

Agree with your definition of a good coach ...  but change takes time ... sometimes generations.   It is not just with coaching - it is with all social norms.   Mixed race marriages in the 60's were nearly unheard of ... now - at least in my neck of the woods - no one gives it a second thought.  Gay rights are making that transition now.  Slowly, the "old School" coach is fading as well.   Looking at the NFL, I find it difficult to find a screamer.   The likes of Sean McVeigh, Hugh Jackson, Bill Bellichek, Andy Ried, Todd Bowles.. are changing the way the game is coached.   Same in the NBA - Pop, Brad Stevens, Kerr, Doc, - In baseball ... Cora, Francona, Boone, Maddon, ... even ex players - Molitor, Mattingly ... maybe our grandkids will be benefators of the trickle down effect into College and HS ball once they see that there is a positive that translates to wins.

Did you just put 1-31-1 Hue Jackson in the same category with Belichick?Wow...and I hate Belicheat, I'm mean Belichick...

real green posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

I keep saying it: If being a jerk is so successful, why isn’t there a single business school or management guru out there advocating it?  I think (?) we all agree that managing people in the working world isn’t supposed to work that way (although sometimes managers are jerks, too). So why do we expect something different from coaches?  

Authoritative Management is what we are discussing.  Yes, it is still very common in the job market...  

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that Authoritative Management Includes throwing things, belittling your reports in front of their peers, and the other kinds of behavior I have in mind. 

cabbagedad posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

No question Bob Knight and other “old school” coaches (I’ll avoid the word “abusive”) can be winners. But did their old school tactics make them successful?  Could Knight have won just as many games (or maybe more) if he had used a different approach?  Did he NEED to behave the way he did to win?

I keep saying it: If being a jerk is so successful, why isn’t there a single business school or management guru out there advocating it?  I think (?) we all agree that managing people in the working world isn’t supposed to work that way (although sometimes managers are jerks, too). So why do we expect something different from coaches?  

OK, Chico, I'll throw this out there...

First, I think there are more than one ways to be successful.  Me, personally, I would say I am more progressive than old school but some of my players would disagree.

I am going to make an analogy to the military.  Of course, I am not trying to say it is the same level of importance or that losing has the same severity of consequences.  But there are many similarities, philosophies and perhaps an argument for old school tactics.  You have a large group of young men from widely varying backgrounds and levels of life experiences, mostly quite limited and not yet nearly prepared for what they are about to face.  They have to be whipped into shape in very short order and fully prepared to go out and do battle from the first day the war begins.  Having comradery and teamwork fully developed day one is an important but elusive goal.  So is full conditioning and exposure to as much simulated warfare as possible before the real thing begins.  Toughen them up and prepare them for anything and everything.  How does the military do this?  Pretty much the same way as the old school coaches do it.  I think the Herb Brooks analogy is really good.  Calculated breaking down of the individuals, along with purposeful development of resentment of the coach in effort to create team unity among the players.  Then push and push some more, beyond what they think they are capable of.  (Can't do that by coddling and telling they are all wonderful, just the way they are   )

I think many coaches use some of these tactics.  On the other hand, I also know that some coaches do it, not having a clue or specific plan.  It's just the way they are.  

You make some very good points.  I’m cogitating about what parts of this would apply in business settings and which would not, and why. Even with a group of very young, very “green” employees, the military model generally wouldn’t be used. Maybe it should (to some extent)?  

For the record:  I’m ok with old school to the extent it means demanding. And chewing somebody out can have its place.  I think we all know “abusive coaching” when we see it, even if we don’t always agree. 

Interesting thread. I’m going to retire from the field for a while...

greatgame posted:

I think Newumpire nailed it. People are different, my son and daughter did not like to be yelled at. I responded to the yeller. It's like time out, worked for my daughter only had to do it once for a minute. If my dad would have put me in time out, I would have been like, "Let me get this straight, you're gonna put me in this comfortable chair for 1 minute per my age and I'm not gonna get a spanking, sweet sign me up!" 

As far as Bobby Knight, I would have no problem if he was my son's coach, but not sure he would like it. If Knight put a tampon in my locker, me and the guys I played with would have laughed so hard we would have had an aneurysm.

As my WWII Marine veteran father (who also played Big 10 football) said to me when I complained about a high school coach ...

You can be a pussy and quit. Or you can man up and figure out how to deal with it if you truly want to play.

No matter what the coaching style and the era the advice still fits.

NewUmpire posted:

Not sure how accurate the movie "Miracle" portrayed Herb Brooks and his actions to the players ... but those actions unified the team - and we know what that result was.

Brooks had them skate sprints until the players were dropping. One of the players realized and yelled out he played for the USA not his college. Some of the players weren’t getting along due to a college rivalry and an incident (not explained in the movie) in one of their games 

This has turned into a very interesting and respectful discussion. You guys were busy on here today! A busy day at work kept me from responding until now, but I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. 

CABBAGEDAD:  I appreciated your advice to me. It was excellent, but I can assure you that I already had no delusions that a college baseball player's "fun" experience is anything similar to the average student's "fun" experience. My use of the term "fun" was intended the way you described it for college athletes (camaradarie, etc.). I'm still glad you provided that advice though in case anyone else in the future comes across this thread and doesn't have a realistic perspective of life for college athletes. (I know when I first found this site last year, old threads were extremely helpful.)

Chico:  I agreed with pretty much everything you said. 

The more I think about this topic, I honestly think it's as simple as this:  if the coach is an a-hole in all the other areas of his life, then he's most likely going to be an a-hole coach. If he's a decent human being in his personal life, then he's probably going to be decent to his players. Keep in mind, most of us in this disucssion have reached a consensus that "mean/abusive" (whatever term you want to use) is different than "tough." Each parent/kid has to decide if they want to deal with mean. Personally, I don't think kids should have to deal with that in any area of their life, including sports. The perfect example from above is the teacher/coach comparison. We put up with behavior from coaches that we would never tolerate from any other professionals. Hopefully there is a change underway. 

Someone above opined that acceptable behavior/styles of leadership have already changed drastically in the business world, and that coaching styles may be moving in that direction as well. I think this is the case. The younger generation of coaches may repsect the "mean" coach they had, while also recognizing that style is not the best way to motivate players and win. I will put forth Nick Mingione as an example of this newer generation of coach. He's been successful, his players respect him, he's tough, but he's also a good human being who treats his team like family. 

OP's post hit home for me. My first job out of law school, after switching careers, I had a total a-hole boss. He was the Bobby Knight of bosses (except no one respected him). He is the perfect example of the guy who is an a-hole in all areas of his life. I was miserable. It got so bad that I had to file a formal complaint after he got in my face and I thought he was going to hit me. He was forced to attend anger management type classes. He eventually was such an a-hole to a judge in open court that the news media picked up on it, and he was fired in a very public way. (His anger management was obviously not successful.) I would not wish that type of coach/boss on anyone. Could I handle it? Yes. Should I have to put up with it in a business setting? No. Was it a learning experience? Yes:  I should never let ANYONE treat me that way. I should've quit long before I did. But just like with players who have tough coaches, some of my former co-workers chose to continue working for him until he was fired.

Which brings me back to the one thing we all seem to agree on:  whether you agree with the "mean coach" philosophy or not, your kid might end up playing for one like OP's son did. If that happens, each player has to decide if he wants to deal with it or not. I just hope that if a kid decides he doesn't want to deal with it, his parents will be as supportive as OP was with her son. 

I think a lot of this comes from what is ok in life.  I never curse and my parents didn't curse so cursing is wrong in my world.  I won't go on because I know I will offend someone.  My dad who was a military guy used to say cursing was for men who couldn't come up with intelligent words to use so they added curse words in.  So, for me and my family you don't curse me or my family.   You can use those words in my presence and I will just smile but if you curse me or my family, I believe there is a difference it is on. 

The same way I do not believe you touch a kid in anger.  If you do there are consequences.  Because I did not grow up in that.  I was spanked but never beaten. 

I know that what happens in college is different for me because that is my son's accountability not mine.  He is a grown man.  I will support him if I need to but he has to make those choices.  I heard a college player tell a coach one time don't ever call me a SOB.  My mom is a good lady and if you refer to her a B.... again I will have to punch you.  This is a true story.  The coach just laughed and said I understand.

The hard part for the kid’s to grasp is they’re shown a lot of love during the recruiting process. Then, when things don’t work out the coach can barely remember their name. He’s more focused on who will get playing time and the next batch of recruits. It’s not mean. It’s juat the way it is. Then the kid tells his parents the coach is mean. 

although this example was div3,   Now that some of our friends are getting drafted,  going to college almost all of the turmoil over playing time,  coach being a jerk etc.   seems to stem from the 11.7 scholarships.    a couple of kids I know were drafted  expected to sign  didn't  showed up with 95% scholarships and immediately had their coach in a tough spot having to manage his oversigns.    When they got injured  he really preferred they moved on.   even if they were clearly better pro prospects.     Then I know kids on the other side of it,   signed LOIs but turns out the coach over signed and he had to find away to encourage them to look somewhere else.      Its not going to change but it sure does play a big part in the stress involved for both coaches and players.    

gunner34 posted:

although this example was div3,   Now that some of our friends are getting drafted,  going to college almost all of the turmoil over playing time,  coach being a jerk etc.   seems to stem from the 11.7 scholarships.    a couple of kids I know were drafted  expected to sign  didn't  showed up with 95% scholarships and immediately had their coach in a tough spot having to manage his oversigns.    When they got injured  he really preferred they moved on.   even if they were clearly better pro prospects.     Then I know kids on the other side of it,   signed LOIs but turns out the coach over signed and he had to find away to encourage them to look somewhere else.      Its not going to change but it sure does play a big part in the stress involved for both coaches and players.    

not unusual

gunner34 posted:

although this example was div3,   Now that some of our friends are getting drafted,  going to college almost all of the turmoil over playing time,  coach being a jerk etc.   seems to stem from the 11.7 scholarships.    a couple of kids I know were drafted  expected to sign  didn't  showed up with 95% scholarships and immediately had their coach in a tough spot having to manage his oversigns.    When they got injured  he really preferred they moved on.   even if they were clearly better pro prospects.     Then I know kids on the other side of it,   signed LOIs but turns out the coach over signed and he had to find away to encourage them to look somewhere else.      Its not going to change but it sure does play a big part in the stress involved for both coaches and players.    

The part I don't get is why can't the coach deal with this like an adult.  In my professional life I've had to deal with personnel cuts many times - budget cuts and not enough money to fund all the employees, somewhat analogous to a shortfall in scholarships.  I can't imagine giving employees the cold shoulder or being a jerk just so they'd leave.  You sit them down and tell them what's going on and you tell them you have to let them go.  You listen to their concerns and you look for ways you can help them move forward.  This isn't easy, but everyone, including college players, deserve at least this much respect.

Smitty28 posted:

gunner34 posted:

although this example was div3,   Now that some of our friends are getting drafted,  going to college almost all of the turmoil over playing time,  coach being a jerk etc.   seems to stem from the 11.7 scholarships.    a couple of kids I know were drafted  expected to sign  didn't  showed up with 95% scholarships and immediately had their coach in a tough spot having to manage his oversigns.    When they got injured  he really preferred they moved on.   even if they were clearly better pro prospects.     Then I know kids on the other side of it,   signed LOIs but turns out the coach over signed and he had to find away to encourage them to look somewhere else.      Its not going to change but it sure does play a big part in the stress involved for both coaches and players.    

The part I don't get is why can't the coach deal with this like an adult.  In my professional life I've had to deal with personnel cuts many times - budget cuts and not enough money to fund all the employees, somewhat analogous to a shortfall in scholarships.  I can't imagine giving employees the cold shoulder or being a jerk just so they'd leave.  You sit them down and tell them what's going on and you tell them you have to let them go.  You listen to their concerns and you look for ways you can help them move forward.  This isn't easy, but everyone, including college players, deserve at least this much respect.

Not saying any of that is OK, but this is different. Now, let's go to your business example and assume that the people you want to let go have guaranteed contracts and you'd have to get them agree to not only leaving, but giving up guaranteed future paychecks. Will that work? No.

roothog66 posted:

Smitty28 posted:

gunner34 posted:

although this example was div3,   Now that some of our friends are getting drafted,  going to college almost all of the turmoil over playing time,  coach being a jerk etc.   seems to stem from the 11.7 scholarships.    a couple of kids I know were drafted  expected to sign  didn't  showed up with 95% scholarships and immediately had their coach in a tough spot having to manage his oversigns.    When they got injured  he really preferred they moved on.   even if they were clearly better pro prospects.     Then I know kids on the other side of it,   signed LOIs but turns out the coach over signed and he had to find away to encourage them to look somewhere else.      Its not going to change but it sure does play a big part in the stress involved for both coaches and players.    

The part I don't get is why can't the coach deal with this like an adult.  In my professional life I've had to deal with personnel cuts many times - budget cuts and not enough money to fund all the employees, somewhat analogous to a shortfall in scholarships.  I can't imagine giving employees the cold shoulder or being a jerk just so they'd leave.  You sit them down and tell them what's going on and you tell them you have to let them go.  You listen to their concerns and you look for ways you can help them move forward.  This isn't easy, but everyone, including college players, deserve at least this much respect.

Not saying any of that is OK, but this is different. Now, let's go to your business example and assume that the people you want to let go have guaranteed contracts and you'd have to get them agree to not only leaving, but giving up guaranteed future paychecks. Will that work? No.

I guess I'd have to buy them out, wouldn't I, since it was my mistake for giving a guaranteed contract to someone I ended up not wanting.

Smitty28 posted:

roothog66 posted:

Smitty28 posted:

gunner34 posted:

although this example was div3,   Now that some of our friends are getting drafted,  going to college almost all of the turmoil over playing time,  coach being a jerk etc.   seems to stem from the 11.7 scholarships.    a couple of kids I know were drafted  expected to sign  didn't  showed up with 95% scholarships and immediately had their coach in a tough spot having to manage his oversigns.    When they got injured  he really preferred they moved on.   even if they were clearly better pro prospects.     Then I know kids on the other side of it,   signed LOIs but turns out the coach over signed and he had to find away to encourage them to look somewhere else.      Its not going to change but it sure does play a big part in the stress involved for both coaches and players.    

The part I don't get is why can't the coach deal with this like an adult.  In my professional life I've had to deal with personnel cuts many times - budget cuts and not enough money to fund all the employees, somewhat analogous to a shortfall in scholarships.  I can't imagine giving employees the cold shoulder or being a jerk just so they'd leave.  You sit them down and tell them what's going on and you tell them you have to let them go.  You listen to their concerns and you look for ways you can help them move forward.  This isn't easy, but everyone, including college players, deserve at least this much respect.

Not saying any of that is OK, but this is different. Now, let's go to your business example and assume that the people you want to let go have guaranteed contracts and you'd have to get them agree to not only leaving, but giving up guaranteed future paychecks. Will that work? No.

I guess I'd have to buy them out, wouldn't I, since it was my mistake for giving a guaranteed contract to someone I ended up not wanting.

You know, I should have said no, that is not a reason to behave like an ass and hang a kid out to dry.  Man-up and sit him down and tell him you screwed up and as a result he's not going to play and he may have a better career if he moved on.  There are ways to handle these things with dignity and as an adult.

"I guess I'd have to buy them out, wouldn't I, since it was my mistake for giving a guaranteed contract to someone I ended up not wanting."

Yes, but there is a 4 letter organization who would have something to say about that 

Smitty28 posted:

roothog66 posted:

Smitty28 posted:

gunner34 posted:

although this example was div3,   Now that some of our friends are getting drafted,  going to college almost all of the turmoil over playing time,  coach being a jerk etc.   seems to stem from the 11.7 scholarships.    a couple of kids I know were drafted  expected to sign  didn't  showed up with 95% scholarships and immediately had their coach in a tough spot having to manage his oversigns.    When they got injured  he really preferred they moved on.   even if they were clearly better pro prospects.     Then I know kids on the other side of it,   signed LOIs but turns out the coach over signed and he had to find away to encourage them to look somewhere else.      Its not going to change but it sure does play a big part in the stress involved for both coaches and players.    

The part I don't get is why can't the coach deal with this like an adult.  In my professional life I've had to deal with personnel cuts many times - budget cuts and not enough money to fund all the employees, somewhat analogous to a shortfall in scholarships.  I can't imagine giving employees the cold shoulder or being a jerk just so they'd leave.  You sit them down and tell them what's going on and you tell them you have to let them go.  You listen to their concerns and you look for ways you can help them move forward.  This isn't easy, but everyone, including college players, deserve at least this much respect.

Not saying any of that is OK, but this is different. Now, let's go to your business example and assume that the people you want to let go have guaranteed contracts and you'd have to get them agree to not only leaving, but giving up guaranteed future paychecks. Will that work? No.

I guess I'd have to buy them out, wouldn't I, since it was my mistake for giving a guaranteed contract to someone I ended up not wanting.

You could tell them they are welcome to stay and draw a paycheck, but will not be allowed to work. Of course, that might be taken a lot better by employees than it would in a baseball program. I'd love it if my boss came to me with that offer. All in all, I agree with you as to the "Coach, handle it like a man" argument.

Hi everyone, I’m the OP.  I haven’t had much to contribute since my initial post and follow-up.  But I have enjoyed reading all the comments.  I just wanted to say that I still support my son 100% in his decision, but man it has been way harder for me than I thought it would be!!  I am truly sad that he isn’t playing anymore. There are so many reminders in this house of his 14 years playing baseball.  And it seems like every memory that pops up on Facebook is a baseball post lol.  Has anyone else gone through this “mourning” when their child hung up their cleats for good? I know that must sound ridiculous, but I’ll really miss watching him play... mainly because I loved watching him do what he loved.  I don’t let him know how I’m feeling  though... because if I’m this sad, I know it must really be bothering him and I don’t want to make it worse for him. I know he was really, really worried about disappointing his dad and me. 

SUMOM3 posted:

Hi everyone, I’m the OP.  I haven’t had much to contribute since my initial post and follow-up.  But I have enjoyed reading all the comments.  I just wanted to say that I still support my son 100% in his decision, but man it has been way harder for me than I thought it would be!!  I am truly sad that he isn’t playing anymore. There are so many reminders in this house of his 14 years playing baseball.  And it seems like every memory that pops up on Facebook is a baseball post lol.  Has anyone else gone through this “mourning” when their child hung up their cleats for good? I know that must sound ridiculous, but I’ll really miss watching him play... mainly because I loved watching him do what he loved.  I don’t let him know how I’m feeling  though... because if I’m this sad, I know it must really be bothering him and I don’t want to make it worse for him. I know he was really, really worried about disappointing his dad and me. 

I feel for you. I mourned volleyball when my daughter decided not to play in college, but I knew when I was watching her last game. I can only imagine it is much harder when you don’t know it’s the last time.  Continue to be proud.  He knows his worth and won’t allow someone to make him feel less than and that is a great trait. 

At some point every player stops playing. I think every parent misses it. It took three years before I stopped actively searching each week for high school and college games to watch.

My son’s college career ended in a doctor’s office when he was told he needed a second surgery. At the time I wished I had known it was the last game when it was the last game.

The journey never ends. Eventually you see a successful young adult. Then a parent. Before you know it your watching the cycle repeat when he’s coaching his kids.

My oldest was a soccer player.  I am not a particular fan of the game (unlike baseball, which I have loved since I was a kid), but I sure do miss seeing her play.  She gave it up after HS, having decided she just didn't want to risk another orthopedic surgery.  It was the right decision for her, no question.  But she had played since she was four years old...  If you have a child who is at least a moderately serious athlete, then sports is likely one of the main things you and your kids spend time doing together (driving to practices and games, traveling to weekend tournaments, maybe coaching their teams when they are young, etc.).  I think it's only natural to miss that.

OP:  Your feelings are not ridiculous at all. I suspect we will all feel some degree of sadness when the time comes, no mater when or how they stop playing. My friend at work that I mentioned in my earlier post experienced the exact same feelings as you. She also described it as "mourning." Her son quit this spring after his sophomore college season to puruse a specific academic program at a different school. She was so upset over his decision over the summer that she said she teared up in Dick's Sporting Goods when she ran into a familiar sales woman who asked about her son. My friend said it helped seeing her son get settled at his new school and how happy he is there in his new academic program. Her son doesn't regret his decision at all, and I suspect yours will not either once he gets past the initial disappointment. Once you see how relieved he is, I think it will be easier for you. He is lucky to have your support, and I wish you and your family all the best! 

Man, I hate these threads.  My daughter 2019 (twin sister of my RHP) decided last year she doesn't want to play sports in college, softball or volleyball, and she has the talent to do both.  I think she'll miss being on a team and the bonds you make, but I support her decision.  Not looking forward to softball season, as that's the sport she's vested so much time in.  This past summer was her last travel year and she cried for HOURS after her last game, and she's not a crier.  Mom and me were a wreck. 

I remember senior night last year, I was emotional for the senior parents, who knew this was the last time they would watch their kids play organized sports.  Luckily, I'll be able to watch my son in college, but I still dread the thoughts of when it will all end.

Good luck SUMOM.  I will admit, I was sad for you and your son when I read he made the decision he did.  But, as many have pointed out, there's so much more and he's got a good head on his shoulders (I would maybe throw it out there, if he does have regrets, he can always reconsider, just so he knows you support him and it's OK to rethink it).

Yeah, it will happen for us all. I had this very conversation last spring with a friend. It was after we lost the state championship game. He didn't have a kid in this game but still followed our high school because both his sons played there. I mentioned that for most of the kids on the field, it was probably the last time they would play the game and that I was relieved I didn't have to go through that feeling. He basically laughed at me. One of his sons pitched in the majors - had a ten year career as a starter. He let me have the bad news. It's a life changing event for a parent even at that level. 

As others have said, it will eventually end for them all.  Although it is not the same, having my son go off to college so far away, I had to find something to do with my time.  I decided to go back to school and earn my MBA.  After years of focusing on my kids, it was nice to do something for myself.  It was hard to get back into the swing of writing papers, taking tests, etc., but it was really good for ME.  Find something for yourself, pull back a little, and you'll find your comfort zone.

rynoattack posted:

As others have said, it will eventually end for them all.  Although it is not the same, having my son go off to college so far away, I had to find something to do with my time.  I decided to go back to school and earn my MBA.  After years of focusing on my kids, it was nice to do something for myself.  It was hard to get back into the swing of writing papers, taking tests, etc., but it was really good for ME.  Find something for yourself, pull back a little, and you'll find your comfort zone.

Probably a wiser course of action than the plan I have been mulling to adopt a 5-year-old tee ball player with promising skills...   

My son played through College. We knew it would end then. He had no interest in playing in the lower level independent leagues, and did not believe he was a prospect. He has team mates from his old summer leagues still trying to make it and end up every year back in the Pecos league. He was ready to move on. He played no Baseball the summer after he graduated. However he did take the summer off an coached a local travel team associated with his HS. He wanted to see if coaching was something he wanted to do. He has been an assistant on the Freshman, JV and next year he will be the varsity pitching coach.  He continues to coach in Summer travel. and is the head coach for that team. 

So I still get to see him on the field, usually in the third base coaching box. I will probably go to more Varsity games next spring as well. And now that he is settled in he has spent the last two summers playing in a local Men's league. In College he was a PO, weekend starter all four years. Now he plays in Right field and is a reliever if needed. He still loves to pitch, but I think he is very happy getting to bat and play the field every game again. Plus I get to watch him play on Sunday afternoons. 

It is much more relaxed and he really enjoys his teammates. So for us anyway, it continues to go on. 

SUMOM3 posted:

Hi everyone, I’m the OP.  I haven’t had much to contribute since my initial post and follow-up.  But I have enjoyed reading all the comments.  I just wanted to say that I still support my son 100% in his decision, but man it has been way harder for me than I thought it would be!!  I am truly sad that he isn’t playing anymore. There are so many reminders in this house of his 14 years playing baseball.  And it seems like every memory that pops up on Facebook is a baseball post lol.  Has anyone else gone through this “mourning” when their child hung up their cleats for good? I know that must sound ridiculous, but I’ll really miss watching him play... mainly because I loved watching him do what he loved.  I don’t let him know how I’m feeling  though... because if I’m this sad, I know it must really be bothering him and I don’t want to make it worse for him. I know he was really, really worried about disappointing his dad and me. 

Sum, yeah, i think we all go through this to varying degrees.  Regarding your last two comments, it's really important to put focus on all the other things aside from baseball that make him the person that he is.  Embrace his other interests, his career direction and the new passions he will find.  When he sees that from you, he will be more than fine.

Chico Escuela posted:

rynoattack posted:

As others have said, it will eventually end for them all.  Although it is not the same, having my son go off to college so far away, I had to find something to do with my time.  I decided to go back to school and earn my MBA.  After years of focusing on my kids, it was nice to do something for myself.  It was hard to get back into the swing of writing papers, taking tests, etc., but it was really good for ME.  Find something for yourself, pull back a little, and you'll find your comfort zone.

Probably a wiser course of action than the plan I have been mulling to adopt a 5-year-old tee ball player with promising skills...   

Chico Escuela posted:

rynoattack posted:

As others have said, it will eventually end for them all.  Although it is not the same, having my son go off to college so far away, I had to find something to do with my time.  I decided to go back to school and earn my MBA.  After years of focusing on my kids, it was nice to do something for myself.  It was hard to get back into the swing of writing papers, taking tests, etc., but it was really good for ME.  Find something for yourself, pull back a little, and you'll find your comfort zone.

Probably a wiser course of action than the plan I have been mulling to adopt a 5-year-old tee ball player with promising skills...   

They’re called grand kids. 

I had a coach at a division 1 school in Conference USA that was miserable. Abused verbally and physically, called kids derogatory names. Freaked out on a trainer and kicked his equipment one morning at weights.

dont put up with it. The best thing I ever did was leave and go to a junior college and then transfer to another division 1 school where the coaches respected their players. Both my jucu coach and my 4 year coach Are great mentors and will forever be great friends of mine.

At the end of college you should graduate with your degree, a direction for life after college, and a network for life that should include your friends, faculty and staff who supported you during your time in school. If your son is headed towards all three, then he should stay.