Do colleges cut players from the roster after the fall workouts? If yes, and the players transfer, can they move to a school after the fall semester and play for the new school that spring?
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Why?
@Consultant posted:Why?
I saw someone tweet that kids will be cut after fall practices and I was wondering how that works.
100% yes kids are cut in the fall. I don't know if they can transfer and play for another school in the spring but I have to think that answer is now yes. If you don't have to sit out you should be able to pull this off.
Yesterday I took a look at the 21 2020 kids who committed from my son's travel team. Of the 21, 4 have quit their teams, another 4 were non-rostered (not sure if they moved on from baseball), 13 are still on teams but only 4 saw any real-time as Freshman. Prepare your kids (the royal you not talking to you Francis) for the mental grind and choose a school you would want to be at without baseball.....
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:Yesterday I took a look at the 21 2020 kids who committed from my son's travel team. Of the 21, 4 have quit their teams, another 4 were non-rostered (not sure if they moved on from baseball), 13 are still on teams but only 4 saw any real-time as Freshman. Prepare your kids (the royal you not talking to you Francis) for the mental grind and choose a school you would want to be at without baseball.....
Just curious - for the 8 (4+4) what type of schools or Divisions did they go to after High School?
My son was a 2019, so we have seen 2 years of college ball affected by so much more than baseball. I have watched numerous kids of different classes decide that the lifestyle required to play baseball was not for them. It is a grind that you have to love, while trying to figure out how to keep up with academics and other real life influences. I have seen high school studs being replaced on rosters by juco and transfer guys who have been promised a chance at somewhere different. College baseball is big business where high paid coaches have to figure out how to get positive results from 11.7 scholarships and results to keep their jobs when many of the high schoolers they bet on don’t develop, or someone decides they don’t deserve to develop. College baseball at the D1 level is brutal, and lots of kids face failure in sport for the first time ever. Politics plays a role, and as parents we learn we don’t have a vote. Fall is a time of change in most programs and some kids are just happier to move on also. My son is still where he started, but point of my post is that college baseball is a tough gig that a kid has to absolutely love or it will take a toll
@Francis7 posted:Just curious - for the 8 (4+4) what type of schools or Divisions did they go to after High School?
7 of 8 were D3. The one who was D1 was not going to a high-end D1. The common theme of the kids I know that have moved on was that they didn't play HS ball their senior year, they get to college and didn't see a lot of time (or any time) and basically lost their passion for the game. In all things (sports, work, life) you need to ride out the highs and the lows..... find that middle ground and grind it out. There you have my philosophy on life....
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:7 of 8 were D3. The one who was D1 was not going to a high-end D1. The common theme of the kids I know that have moved on was that they didn't play HS ball their senior year, they get to college and didn't see a lot of time (or any time) and basically lost their passion for the game. In all things (sports, work, life) you need to ride out the highs and the lows..... find that middle ground and grind it out. There you have my philosophy on life....
Thanks. Pretty amazing that they didn't play senior year of HS and still got college offers.
@2019Lefty21 - real life influences being girls and partying?
@Francis7 posted:Thanks. Pretty amazing that they didn't play senior year of HS and still got college offers.
2020's were covid seniors. No one played.
@Francis7 posted:Thanks. Pretty amazing that they didn't play senior year of HS and still got college offers.
COVID, alot of 2020 kids didn't play their Sr. year
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:2020's were covid seniors. No one played.
Ah...makes sense!!
I think of the 14 or so that came in there are 3 left. Some never belonged, some didn't perform, and some were gone for no good reason at all.
If I've learned anything it's that getting cut doesn't mean you can't play, it means you shouldn't be playing there. I've seen a kid cut after fall ball pitching in a super regional for an SEC program a year later. I've seen a kid who turned down Round 3 draft money get 4 at bats over two years.
Baseball math doesn't always make sense, sometimes it's best not to try and make sense of it.
D1 has a midyear transfer rule that prevents baseball players (and basketball) from participating immediately in the spring season. I don't think the new one-time waiver changes that.
@Francis7 posted:@2019Lefty21 - real life influences being girls and partying?
Sure, I guess that’s what you would call those things!
Of the sixteen players in my son’s travel team roster class, eight had transferred before junior year. Everyone went major conference except one Ivy who was also offered by Duke. One kid it was only because he didn’t like the environment (culture) and being so far from home. The other seven overreached and chose their dream schools. In two cases the players chose the only D1 making an offer versus several D2’s. Coaches make mistakes too.
In one of these cases the kid didn’t see the field freshman year. He transferred to another major conference team (multiple coaches can make mistakes), sat out a year, then found himself behind a new recruit, top prospect catcher. He covered up an arm injury to compete, blew his arm out and never played a day of college ball.
My son’s definition of a dream school was one where he felt he could get on the field and get a good education. He chose an up and coming program he felt would win more than it would lose.
So, if I am reading it correctly...kid is a 2021 HS grad. Goes to college in August 2021. Works out with the team in September and October. Gets cut in November 2021.
This means he's not playing baseball in Spring 2022?
If he drops out of the second semester in his "cut school," does he still lose a year of his 4 years of eligibility?
My understanding is the same as MidAtlanticDad. The one time transfer rule does not apply during the same school year. If a player goes to school in the fall and gets cut, he is not eligible to play that spring and his clock has started so he will have to take a redshirt year for the spring. That is why we preach know the pond and section of the pond. It is not just the level of play but the right school in that level of play. When son was being recruited, he got lots of P5 interest and lots of SEC interest but UT was the best fit for him not only because of the opportunity to play in the SEC but they did not have a lot of LHP's at the time. Several others that showed interest or offers had several to a bunch of LHP's. When you walk into the first class in the fall you are burning a year one way or another. Make sure it is the right classroom (campus, school, team). it is not just the right coach, or degree, or school you like but as I always say who/how many will you have to beat out to be able to put on a uniform to play against someone of a different uniform.
And there will be a lot of them this year that will be cut or told they are a redshirt. The average SEC school has 45-55 players in the fall. Most D1 schools are not far behind. A lot of kids will be having a tough choice in the next several weeks. A lot of parent's hearts are going to be broken.
@Francis7 posted:So, if I am reading it correctly...kid is a 2021 HS grad. Goes to college in August 2021. Works out with the team in September and October. Gets cut in November 2021.
This means he's not playing baseball in Spring 2022?
If he drops out of the second semester in his "cut school," does he still lose a year of his 4 years of eligibility?
You can transfer to a JUCO at winter break and play in the spring. Happens all the time.
Russ;
you can do both. Take 12 credits courses at the JC by remote and continue with your current 4 year school. Practice with the JC, if you have the talent to play.
Bob
IMHO, hopefully Rick Allen - Informed Athlete can provide context.
Here is the NCAA doc.
@PitchingFan - can a kid get a red shirt if he's cut? Or, is this something you need to broker with the coach? "Hey, don't cut me. Red shirt me and it's a win for me and a win for the school because I will stay in classes this spring."
@russinfortworth posted:You can transfer to a JUCO at winter break and play in the spring. Happens all the time.
Kinda sucks for the Juco kids who then lose spots because of the incoming mid year transfers.
@Francis7 posted:@PitchingFan - can a kid get a red shirt if he's cut? Or, is this something you need to broker with the coach? "Hey, don't cut me. Red shirt me and it's a win for me and a win for the school because I will stay in classes this spring."
"Hey, don't cut me. Red shirt me and it's a win for me and a win for the school because I will stay in classes this spring."
Being cut in the fall is like being fired from a job. You will not be counted as part the spring varsity headcount.
Now if the coach convinces you that he thinks you will be a great addition next year, then he might say "We would like you to redshirt this year".
It is now in the player's hands to determine the validity of said coaches words.
"Trust but Verify"
Francis, I get the feeling you’re already in “what if it doesn’t work out” mode before your son even gets to campus next fall. Once a decision is made the player and his support system has to be all in. College sports are too competitive just to get on the field to not be mentally all in. If, for some reason it doesn’t work out then sort through the options.
The best option, unless the player is a legit pro prospect is go where you would be ok if baseball it taken out of the mix. If baseball doesn’t work out another option is stay and be a regular student.
@Francis7 posted:So, if I am reading it correctly...kid is a 2021 HS grad. Goes to college in August 2021. Works out with the team in September and October. Gets cut in November 2021.
This means he's not playing baseball in Spring 2022?
If he drops out of the second semester in his "cut school," does he still lose a year of his 4 years of eligibility?
That's correct for kid who is transferring to a D1 midyear. As others say, that same kid could play at a juco in the spring (or D2/D3).
You may be mixing up the 4 seasons of participation and the 5 concurrent calendar years of eligibly for D1. You only lose participation seasons when you play in a game. Almost nothing stops the 5 year clock. I don't think there's any practical eligibility difference between getting cut and red-shirting. Why are you thinking that helps the player... because the kid gets to practice with the team?
Tagging @Rick at Informed Athlete in case he wants to correct or expand.
Thanks @MidAtlanticDad
@PABaseball posted:...................................................
Baseball math doesn't always make sense, sometimes it's best not to try and make sense of it.
There you have it. Words to live by.
Bosses make decisions all day every day, and a lot of the times it is not quantitative...it is qualitative.
@PitchingFan posted:My understanding is the same as MidAtlanticDad. The one time transfer rule does not apply during the same school year. If a player goes to school in the fall and gets cut, he is not eligible to play that spring and his clock has started so he will have to take a redshirt year for the spring. That is why we preach know the pond and section of the pond. It is not just the level of play but the right school in that level of play. When son was being recruited, he got lots of P5 interest and lots of SEC interest but UT was the best fit for him not only because of the opportunity to play in the SEC but they did not have a lot of LHP's at the time. Several others that showed interest or offers had several to a bunch of LHP's. When you walk into the first class in the fall you are burning a year one way or another. Make sure it is the right classroom (campus, school, team). it is not just the right coach, or degree, or school you like but as I always say who/how many will you have to beat out to be able to put on a uniform to play against someone of a different uniform.
And there will be a lot of them this year that will be cut or told they are a redshirt. The average SEC school has 45-55 players in the fall. Most D1 schools are not far behind. A lot of kids will be having a tough choice in the next several weeks. A lot of parent's hearts are going to be broken.
And there will be a lot of them this year that will be cut or told they are a redshirt. The average SEC school has 45-55 players in the fall. Most D1 schools are not far behind. A lot of kids will be having a tough choice in the next several weeks. A lot of parent's hearts are going to be broken.
It's really a shame this is where college baseball is today. This really breaks my heart for all those young men that have put so much into baseball to get to the college level. It's a shame for the parents too, who likewise, have invested so much.
I know there are a gazillion factors that go into college baseball, and I'm not getting into that because I think most of us realize that, but I do wish kids and parents were more educated on the process and, to some extent, that college coaches were more upfront and honest with kids. (I mean, recruiting and having an 8th/9th grader commit is a little ridiculous!) Combining more kid/parent education and more coach transparency may eliminate some of the heartache for these player and families.
I just hope that by the time my 2024 gets to this point, we (whole family) are armed with the knowledge and insight to make the best decision. Of course, thanks to much of the sage advice on these boards, I think we are heading in the right direction! 
@BaseballMOM05 - you might be clear of the mess with a 2024? For sure, the 2021s and 2022s have been screwed and we will see with the 2023s.
I have a 2022. And, while it would be easy to sit here and say this sucks, it's so unfair and why me...instead, I look at it as a merit badge. The kid got offers to play college baseball at a time where it was extremely difficult to get a college offer. Maybe the most difficult time ever to get a college baseball offer? Testament to his ability and drive. The world threw him a nasty curve and he didn't go down swinging.
@Francis7 That is an awesome attitude to have!! I wish your son the very best. You should be super proud of him, and he of himself, for being able to handle this Covid recruiting mess and get to play college ball! Can't wait to hear how next year goes!
PO Jr was a Dl scholarship LHP, with 20+ innings as a freshman. Sohp year was told he was redshirting. New JC lefty transfer and 2 LHP's back from TJ. Two weeks before season ends he's told not in their future next year. Had four year guaranteed scholly money. Decided he still wanted to play and not sit the bench. Transferred to Dll and started over 35 games, 200+ innings pitched and is 7th in all time wins only playing three years. Dropping down is way better then dropping out.
Baseball will tell you if you are good enough. By the way, that JC lefty transfer, was the opener for the Atlanta Braves the other night.
I know there are those who put a lot of it on the coaches but I'm not one of them. I think they are who they are and you have to do your homework. I wish more education of parents and players was the answer but my experience tells me it is not. I know so many who cannot see the writing on the wall. I see redshirt sophomores (3rd year players) who did not have success this fall who still think they can turn it around this spring and a small percentage might. But most will sit the bench again this spring as they have the first two years. I see parents who know there will be 50 players at their son's school who still believe that he can beat all odds and make the roster. I see players who know they are the last guy on the fall roster and their numbers are not near the top guys but they think they can persevere. So many believe that they the 1% who will overcome and a few are but the rest are the 99% that will waste a year. Parents and players are not realistic when it comes to their dreams. I know my son could have gone to a smaller school and been a starter but he wanted to compete with the best and got an opportunity to play on a CWS team. But we were realistic on his expectations and if he had not competed his freshman and sophomore years he would have been somewhere else by now.
@PitchingFan posted:I know there are those who put a lot of it on the coaches but I'm not one of them. I think they are who they are and you have to do your homework. I wish more education of parents and players was the answer but my experience tells me it is not. I know so many who cannot see the writing on the wall. I see redshirt sophomores (3rd year players) who did not have success this fall who still think they can turn it around this spring and a small percentage might. But most will sit the bench again this spring as they have the first two years. I see parents who know there will be 50 players at their son's school who still believe that he can beat all odds and make the roster. I see players who know they are the last guy on the fall roster and their numbers are not near the top guys but they think they can persevere. So many believe that they the 1% who will overcome and a few are but the rest are the 99% that will waste a year. Parents and players are not realistic when it comes to their dreams. I know my son could have gone to a smaller school and been a starter but he wanted to compete with the best and got an opportunity to play on a CWS team. But we were realistic on his expectations and if he had not competed his freshman and sophomore years he would have been somewhere else by now.
It is on the coaches. They are the ones that bring in 20 over the signing number. We give the coaches way too much benefit of the doubt. The coaches are the ones selling that dream to the kid and the family. What really sucks in baseball is that the players are paying most of the bill. In the SEC, most coaches are close to a million a year or more. The assistants are 200-300k a year. The coach will dump you in a second if he can find a better player. Then you are stuck with an apartment lease at your old school and trying to find a new home with yet another apartment lease and most likely no scholarship money if you are moving on mid year. I know too many people that have gone through it the last 12 months and more that are about to go through it in the next 4-6 weeks. All of them were studs out of high school too.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:D1 has a midyear transfer rule that prevents baseball players (and basketball) from participating immediately in the spring season. I don't think the new one-time waiver changes that.
That rule doesn’t apply if transferring from D1/D2 to JuCo. You are eligible to play in the spring if you fit that profile.
Sorry for repeat. Didn’t read everything above.
So it is the coaches fault that the players are willing to come even when they know there will be 15 kids who will not make the roster limits. I believe the coaches have some accountability but I also have talked to enough parents and players who knew what they were coming into. They could have gone another direction but CHOSE to try to be the exception. Most coaches do not cut players but they do tell them they will not play this spring and will have to work on certain things to earn a position. So how is it the coaches' fault that a player does not make a team? The recruiting cycle has become such a crazy world but it is still predictable. I have watched several recruiting classes for the past 5 years and if parents and players are doing their due diligence they will know how many are coming in each year. Not just the recruiting class of incoming freshmen but the transfers and juco kids by the time the fall starts. But they come anyway because they believe they are the ones who can make it. And you never know, they might be. We were part of that group. Son does not have the numbers to be a major part of an SEC/CWS team but he is and we were willing to take that chance. If he had not made it, we would have gone a different path and I would not have blamed the coaches. They gave him a chance to earn a spot which is their job. A winning coach will never guarantee a kid a spot but give him an opportunity to earn a spot.
@fenwaysouth posted:There you have it. Words to live by.
Bosses make decisions all day every day, and a lot of the times it is not quantitative...it is qualitative.
lMHO, it will be both the quantitative will a potential pattern of how the coach may or may not manage his roster, which is why most will go to the school's website to look at the roster.
The qualitative will be asking coaches and existing player's about the team and what is expected.
What percentage is quantitative vs qualitative will depend on what might help the consumer in making their decision.
@d-mac posted:It is on the coaches. They are the ones that bring in 20 over the signing number. We give the coaches way too much benefit of the doubt. The coaches are the ones selling that dream to the kid and the family. What really sucks in baseball is that the players are paying most of the bill. In the SEC, most coaches are close to a million a year or more. The assistants are 200-300k a year. The coach will dump you in a second if he can find a better player. Then you are stuck with an apartment lease at your old school and trying to find a new home with yet another apartment lease and most likely no scholarship money if you are moving on mid year. I know too many people that have gone through it the last 12 months and more that are about to go through it in the next 4-6 weeks. All of them were studs out of high school too.
The SEC is an outlier, for the most part one could probably say P5 schools hold different weight vs non P5.
Question, how many new recruits should a coach bring in on an annual basis?
Each division has their own way they deal with roster management.
As for blaming the coaches, isn't their job to get the best talent?
Did they pressure the Student Athlete and his family to come to the school with the opportunity to potentially play baseball?
That being said, there is a interesting series of articles on d1baseball.com discussing the roster management.
Remember most decisions are emotional or what we might think maybe not the most informed.
IMHO, the meaning of making the "most informed decision" will depend on the individual.
Thanks to MidAtlanticDad for tagging me earlier in this discussion. Sorry that I didn't have time to comment until now. I'm sure this discussion is pretty complete by now. D1 baseball is the only division in which a mid-year transfer as an undergrad can't be immediately eligible. (It is possible for a mid-year GRAD transfer to be immediately eligible at a new school in the Spring.)
Dad was also correct in that almost nothing stops the Division I 5-year clock as it's ticking down. Only exceptions are military service, an official religious mission, or there's a pregnancy exception for female athletes. Therefore, if a baseball player is cut in the Fall or is told that they are redshirting, the bottom line is that they won't be using one of their four seasons of playing eligibility, but their clock will keep on ticking whether they are redshirting at their current school or have been cut and are sitting out in the Spring.
Keep in mind that levels below D1 don't use the 5-year clock but instead have a 10-semester/15-quarter rule. That's more beneficial for Fall sports than for Spring sports in most situations, however.
If a player doesn’t receive any baseball money (with a handful of exceptions) the writing should be on the wall he’s a long shot. Even if he’s the 28th player on the team he’s not going to receive playing time. Chances are there are 7-10 players receiving 25% it’s not going to work out for. So why should a kid getting nothing believe he’s the outlier? The exception is the late blooming, fast rising, big velocity pitcher.
@PitchingFan posted:I know there are those who put a lot of it on the coaches but I'm not one of them. I think they are who they are and you have to do your homework. I wish more education of parents and players was the answer but my experience tells me it is not. I know so many who cannot see the writing on the wall. I see redshirt sophomores (3rd year players) who did not have success this fall who still think they can turn it around this spring and a small percentage might. But most will sit the bench again this spring as they have the first two years. I see parents who know there will be 50 players at their son's school who still believe that he can beat all odds and make the roster. I see players who know they are the last guy on the fall roster and their numbers are not near the top guys but they think they can persevere. So many believe that they the 1% who will overcome and a few are but the rest are the 99% that will waste a year. Parents and players are not realistic when it comes to their dreams. I know my son could have gone to a smaller school and been a starter but he wanted to compete with the best and got an opportunity to play on a CWS team. But we were realistic on his expectations and if he had not competed his freshman and sophomore years he would have been somewhere else by now.
I just don't think you always know what you are getting into. When my son committed, we were given the impression that the coach was a completely different person than he was. Even last year (our first year) parents did not talk. He left over the summer and I am so surprised to now hear that almost all of the parents had the same feelings we did. He was ruthless and cut throat. Sometimes the true reality is hard to find until you are there. We went in knowing it was hard. Absolutely. But as a 2020, it was not what we signed up for. We ended up (as most of these kids did) walking into a roster that was about 15 kids heavier than anticipated (5 round draft and we had 8 returning seniors). They have told the boys this year that they have to cut 8, which isn't terrible based on the way they were allowed to be bloated last year and still honor commitments they had already made to kids. Baseball is unpredictable enough without the covid stuff...injuries, illness, trying to balance school and a very taxing schedule. I don't blame these guys for sticking with their plan when everything was turned upside down 6 months before they reported. From our HS (guys who committed) and were 2020s. 2 have quit (D1 top 25, D3), 1 had TJ but is still there working his way back (D2), 4 are still at their school (All D1...one was redshirted last year, one is fearful he will get cut at Christmas and 2 are hoping for meaningful play time).
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:The SEC is an outlier, for the most part one could probably say P5 schools hold different weight vs non P5.
Question, how many new recruits should a coach bring in on an annual basis?
As for blaming the coaches, isn't their job to get the best talent?
Did they pressure the Student Athlete and his family to come to the school with the opportunity to potentially play baseball?
No, but they tell you they want you and offer you money to come to their school instead of others TO play baseball, not to potentially play ball. They would not be offering money for the students to potentially come out for the team.
Coaches don't catch enough slack. I understand they have bills to pay and only get paid if they keep their jobs by winning and running a clean program. I have no issues with them taking on as many resources (players) as possible and getting down to a certain number. My issue lies within the fact that they are allowed to go over limitations and force kids out - kids who have turned down other options to uphold their end of the bargain.
My issue has more to do with the rules that allow this behavior, where it has become the norm. You can bring in however many you want and get rid of whoever. It allows coaches to get lazy and removes the vetting process from recruiting. Good coaches and talent evaluators will hit on most guys. Guys can play the numbers game and get lucky. The issue is there are kids who lose other opportunities because the staff at their school either did a poor job recruiting or a poor job developing.
This is a very informative thread that is full of comments from people who are in the middle of the fire right now. Anyone that has a player in HS should read this and commit it to memory. Then get your son to read it to and do the same. People have to get more educated about what the process is really like. If the do, they will make better decisions that will save a lot of heartache and frustration down the road.
Francis7, I assume you are talking about things like this?
As was said, if you are transferring down, you can play immediately at another school.
What wasn't discussed is the major pain and challenge it is to go that route - try to adjust to a new school mid-stream, get credits to transfer, get all your stuff moved, find new housing and roommates, get out of previous housing commitment, try to fit in with an entirely new group that has been working together for months, get past the many who will be holding a grudge due to themselves or aforementioned teammates about to lose their earned place in the pecking order to a new guy coming in, dealing with the ego hit when all the friends and family call and text asking what happened at school A where everyone was so excited that you were going to, dealing with your parents who now face additional expenses and uncertainty, etc., etc.
@PABaseball posted:No, but they tell you they want you and offer you money to come to their school instead of others TO play baseball, not to potentially play ball. They would not be offering money for the students to potentially come out for the team.
Coaches don't catch enough slack. I understand they have bills to pay and only get paid if they keep their jobs by winning and running a clean program. I have no issues with them taking on as many resources (players) as possible and getting down to a certain number. My issue lies within the fact that they are allowed to go over limitations and force kids out - kids who have turned down other options to uphold their end of the bargain.
My issue has more to do with the rules that allow this behavior, where it has become the norm. You can bring in however many you want and get rid of whoever. It allows coaches to get lazy and removes the vetting process from recruiting. Good coaches and talent evaluators will hit on most guys. Guys can play the numbers game and get lucky. The issue is there are kids who lose other opportunities because the staff at their school either did a poor job recruiting or a poor job developing.
This year there are ~12 schools that have more than 7 extra players over expected 2022 player limit (40).
From your perspective, how many players should the coach be allowed to bring in for the fall season?
With respects to athletic scholarship $$$, not all $$$ are equal (but we all understand).
Note, all $$$ are not equal, The $$$ provided will have different meaning based on the in-state vs out-of-state cost.
Casting a wide net has always been a issue regardless of the sport in question.
@cabbagedad posted:As was said, if you are transferring down, you can play immediately at another school.
What wasn't discussed is the major pain and challenge it is to go that route - try to adjust to a new school mid-stream, get credits to transfer, get all your stuff moved, find new housing and roommates, get out of previous housing commitment, try to fit in with an entirely new group that has been working together for months, get past the many who will be holding a grudge due to themselves or aforementioned teammates about to lose their earned place in the pecking order to a new guy coming in, dealing with the ego hit when all the friends and family call and text asking what happened at school A where everyone was so excited that you were going to, dealing with your parents who now face additional expenses and uncertainty, etc., etc.
Welcome back!
@anotherparent posted:Francis7, I assume you are talking about things like this?
Very familiar FS program. Just because you tweet it, doesn't mean you live by it!
@Picked Off posted:Very familiar FS program. Just because you tweet it, doesn't mean you live by it!
That wasn't the one I saw. Let me see if I can find it again
@Francis7 posted:That wasn't the one I saw. Let me see if I can find it again
Outside of NCAA rules, D1 in this case, aren't there conference rules as well? For example I remember asking a few years back about the Big 10, and they have specific rules they have to follow outside of the NCAA rules.
My 2022 was recruited by a top ACC school before he stepped foot onto a HS field. Based on the recruiting history of the school he probably would have gotten an offer if he attended their camp. We didn't. The thought process was if he's so good he's getting this offer now, there will still be plenty of offers when he's more mature and has a better idea of what he wants to do.
Fast forward 3 years, he's committed, and a good ball player, but he's not good enough to play for that school. Maybe he would have made it into the fall, but wasn't making it to the spring.
@baseballhs posted:I just don't think you always know what you are getting into. When my son committed, we were given the impression that the coach was a completely different person than he was. Even last year (our first year) parents did not talk. He left over the summer and I am so surprised to now hear that almost all of the parents had the same feelings we did. He was ruthless and cut throat. Sometimes the true reality is hard to find until you are there. We went in knowing it was hard. Absolutely. But as a 2020, it was not what we signed up for. We ended up (as most of these kids did) walking into a roster that was about 15 kids heavier than anticipated (5 round draft and we had 8 returning seniors). They have told the boys this year that they have to cut 8, which isn't terrible based on the way they were allowed to be bloated last year and still honor commitments they had already made to kids. Baseball is unpredictable enough without the covid stuff...injuries, illness, trying to balance school and a very taxing schedule. I don't blame these guys for sticking with their plan when everything was turned upside down 6 months before they reported. From our HS (guys who committed) and were 2020s. 2 have quit (D1 top 25, D3), 1 had TJ but is still there working his way back (D2), 4 are still at their school (All D1...one was redshirted last year, one is fearful he will get cut at Christmas and 2 are hoping for meaningful play time).
This post in particular strikes a chord with me. What is described here is the way it is at a nationally ranked Big 12 program. If your son is being recruited by top tier D1 programs this is what it’s like at almost every one of them. The unfortunate reality is that the majority of current generation of parents (that have 18 year old baseball players) have coddled their kids their entire lives. The travel ball coaches, private instructors, and scouting services do the same thing, often pumping these kids up to believe they are better than they are. Why would they do that, you ask? To keep getting your money, that’s why. Guess when that bubble bursts and the kid’s world comes crashing down around him? The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games. This sentiment is reinforced (in various ways) on a daily basis and it’s a shock to a kid’s system - since he has been treated like a superstar every day just because he had a pulse. Lots of kids can’t stand up to that kind of treatment, nor should they have to IMO. But it’s the harsh reality of D1 baseball at the most competitive level. So you damn well better know what you are getting your kid into before you do it.
Yeah Ad, but the swag, man. The jets. The rose-colored shades, the hometown press coverage, the side glances from envious teammates, the fans, the CHANCE to stick.
@smokeminside posted:Yeah Ad, but the swag, man. The jets. The rose-colored shades, the hometown press coverage, the side glances from envious teammates, the fans, the CHANCE to stick.
That’s the lure for sure, but it’s only real for the legitimate dudes - and many of them lack the mental toughness to stand up to it. Do a little research on Blake Mayfield who could have gone anywhere he wanted out of Flower Mound Marcus HS in Texas
looks like a tough road for the guy.
@smokeminside posted:looks like a tough road for the guy.
Details coming in PM
The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.
Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.
@Francis7 posted:@BaseballMOM05 - you might be clear of the mess with a 2024? For sure, the 2021s and 2022s have been screwed and we will see with the 2023s.
I have a 2022. And, while it would be easy to sit here and say this sucks, it's so unfair and why me...instead, I look at it as a merit badge. The kid got offers to play college baseball at a time where it was extremely difficult to get a college offer. Maybe the most difficult time ever to get a college baseball offer? Testament to his ability and drive. The world threw him a nasty curve and he didn't go down swinging.
@Francis7 it will probably go back to pre-covid activities.
For example, in 2019 Arkansas EADA reported 48 players had participated in some form of spring varsity baseball .
While I think a lot of what Adbono said it true, I think there are degrees. Our new coach is still tough but not to the point where he is yelling in practice that he can’t wait to recruit on top of a kid or that a kid is a waste of a scholarship. I saw last year that some programs give guys several opportunities even if they aren’t great at first. Example, Texas had some freshmen pitchers who were shaky at the beginning of the season but were well known elite players. The coach kept putting them out there and by mid season, they were killing it. Most coaches aren’t willing to stick with a kid and that’s why there were kids who could have been drafted out of us who ended up in the portal. One kid got 8 at bats. Then didn’t play again. They worried they would Lise him in the draft and then gave him 8 chances. He went in the portal. Look at Chris Taylor or Alex Bergman…even pros struggle but there is not much room fir that when a coach’s paycheck is on the line. Not sure what the answer is because, like I said,, parents weren’t really willing to speak I’ll of our former coach until he was gone and during recruiting he portrayed himself much differently than he actually was. We had a very “hard” hs coach which I guess prepared my kid a little.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.
Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.
40 players are allowed on D1 rosters this year. There are only 9 positions on the field. Only 8-10 pitchers will get meaningful innings. Maybe 12 position players get a good number of at bats. Every recruited player doesn’t get the opportunity to make an impact. I’m just telling you the way it is. Some recruits are nothing more than insurance policies. You have to be smart enough and realistic enough to know where you stack up.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.
Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.
Sometimes they didn’t see the kid enough, sometimes the kid isn’t totally healthy and able to perform his best, sometimes the transition takes an adjustment and sometimes the kid was a walk on and seems expendable. Finally, sometimes a freshman or transfer comes in who is better and they see that they won’t ever really need you. On the flip side, I think the bigger scholarship you have, the more a target is on your back to perform day one.
Waah, It's only unfair when it happens to your kid. I blame the NY Football Giants losing again, the current teams in the world series, the 8 lbs of candy that I am slowly pawning off to others, yadda yadda yadda
@@baseballhs is correct. There are varying degrees of what I discussed at the most competitive schools
@2022NYC posted:Waah, It's only unfair when it happens to your kid. I blame the NY Football Giants losing again, the current teams in the world series, the 8 lbs of candy that I am slowly pawning off to others, yadda yadda yadda
If you think my posts have anything to do with what happened to my kid you would be sadly mistaken
If you google "baseball cut in the fall", the first thing that comes up is is some HSBBW threads. The same thing for googling "over-recruiting". Having these stories on here, year after year, is hopefully helpful for some people.
That first search also brought up an article about the Harvard baseball team . . . in 1911:
https://www.thecrimson.com/art...fall-baseball-squad/
So this has been happening for a long time.
@adbono posted:This post in particular strikes a chord with me. What is described here is the way it is at a nationally ranked Big 12 program. If your son is being recruited by top tier D1 programs this is what it’s like at almost every one of them. The unfortunate reality is that the majority of current generation of parents (that have 18 year old baseball players) have coddled their kids their entire lives. The travel ball coaches, private instructors, and scouting services do the same thing, often pumping these kids up to believe they are better than they are. Why would they do that, you ask? To keep getting your money, that’s why. Guess when that bubble bursts and the kid’s world comes crashing down around him? The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games. This sentiment is reinforced (in various ways) on a daily basis and it’s a shock to a kid’s system - since he has been treated like a superstar every day just because he had a pulse. Lots of kids can’t stand up to that kind of treatment, nor should they have to IMO. But it’s the harsh reality of D1 baseball at the most competitive level. So you damn well better know what you are getting your kid into before you do it.
My son’s observation of playing P5 ball was he saw a lot of talent circle the drain because they weren’t mentally tough enough.
They never had to sit before in their life. Rather than stay physically and mentally ready some kids pissed and moaned until they mentally had one foot out the door. It doesn’t take long for the other foot to follow.
My son’s first six appearances were pinch running. Then the coaches used a mid week non conference game to see if he could hit his way on. Then he started a Sunday conference game. He started against right handed pitching the second half of freshman year.
After hitting .300 he returned soph year to find a JuCo All American at his position. He had to win another position. He beat out a Gatorade POY recruit who couldn’t handle the mental grind of failure.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.
Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.
FOMO
BaseballMOM05, then you miss the one who no one thought would make it. It is a part science part guessing game for college coaches. They are recruiting these kids so early, which they have to do to compete, that they are hoping they continue to grow and get faster and stronger. When they do not they fall in the Adbono criteria. Then there are the ones who surprise everyone. My youngest son was told by several SEC coaches that he was not big enough and didn't throw fast enough to compete in SEC. After he was a part of beating them last year, there was a big satisfaction. The one who saw him pitch more than anyone was who he was playing for.
But it is no different than going after the top guys. There are fans who say why would you waste recruiting money and time on a top 5 pick in the MLB draft. Why would you sign him when everyone knows he is going to the MLB right out of HS? Then you miss Rocker and guys like that. Coaches are many times in a no win situation.
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:This year there are ~12 schools that have more than 7 extra players over expected 2022 player limit (40).
From your perspective, how many players should the coach be allowed to bring in for the fall season?
With respects to athletic scholarship $$$, not all $$$ are equal (but we all understand).
Note, all $$$ are not equal, The $$$ provided will have different meaning based on the in-state vs out-of-state cost.
Only 12 may have 7 over expected. But how many forced kids out to get below the threshold?
In my opinion it's not about the # of players, it's about the amount of money. I don't believe coaches should be out committing 14.0 scholarships to current/future players when only 11.7 are available. You need 2.3 scholarships cut annually. I have no problem with a coach taking a few more walk-ons and making cuts in that area, when there isn't money attached you know you're expendable. But I refuse to get behind the idea the scholarship players need to be cut because the coach is over budget.
Maybe this strikes a nerve with me because the kid's roommate was cut after hitting .260 in about 25 starts as a covid freshman. The coach sat him down and told him they were over budget and asked him to give up his money. When he said no they told him his power numbers weren't there and he wouldn't be welcome back this fall. In July.
But maybe I don't think it's fair for a kid to commit to a school where the coach tells him he wants him and he passes on other opportunities to find out his money was yanked before signing day. Or for a player to put two years into a program and find out he's not going to be welcome back in the fall. This allows coaches to get lazy with recruitment and vetting. You basically get a 1.5 year free trial to see if a kid pans out. You don't have to really work to develop him because if he's no good after a year you can force him out.
^^^ that happens a lot.
"Freshman Baseball Team"
This would provide opportunities for the "transition" process for the young player.
A "farm team" and development program for the College. Inter squad games. Coaches would be Minor League Professional players who are in School.
Bob
@baseballhs posted:^^^ that happens a lot.
You beat me to the punch. It happens a lot. Those of us that are aware post about it as PSA to others who may not know. Not because we are whining about what happened to our own kids. Geez!
@@BaseballMOM05, I saw your rant but my phone won’t let me reply to it. All that you say is what has turned into the business side of college baseball. It’s cold and hard and that’s just a reality. It underscores the importance of doing your homework and being realistic about the choice that is made. Reaching for an option that’s a low percentage play is riskier than ever. Many have said it on here before but never has it been more important to go somewhere that everyone would be happy with if baseball doesn’t work out.
@adbono posted:If you think my posts have anything to do with what happened to my kid you would be sadly mistaken
Wasn't referring to your kid just a snarky statement on the overall unfairness of baseball
@adbono posted:@@BaseballMOM05, I saw your rant but my phone won’t let me reply to it. All that you say is what has turned into the business side of college baseball. It’s cold and hard and that’s just a reality. It underscores the importance of doing your homework and being realistic about the choice that is made. Reaching for an option that’s a low percentage play is riskier than ever. Many have said it on here before but never has it been more important to go somewhere that everyone would be happy with if baseball doesn’t work out.
Yeah, I deleted my rant. I felt it was pointless. It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business." Just doesn't seem right. Sometimes sports, whatever sport it is, is a person's only way to get to college. Just so many things I'm learning about this process and it makes me sad and mad - all at once! LOL!
@2022NYC posted:Wasn't referring to your kid just a snarky statement on the overall unfairness of baseball
Honestly, it is unfair. Mostly to freshmen. There are kids who could have gone anywhere included being drafted ( I know multiple) who aren't given chances because the mentality is winning today and no development or work to tweak issues. That's why Juco transfers are so dangerous to guys who commit and go in as freshmen. The Juco guys many times already came from a strong baseball program, dropped down to transfer, get a chance to actually play and figure out the transition and then come in to compete against your kid that is completely green to college baseball. After freshman year, you have a better understanding of what you are up against, but I feel for the freshmen walking in.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business." Just doesn't seem right.
That's baseball at the upper levels. No one is entitled to anything or owed anything. You either earn it or you don't.
I remember when my son was a freshman starting on varsity and there were some juniors sitting the bench all year. Their mothers were angry because their kids never played. The moms thought their sons were entitled to playing time because (a) they were juniors and (b) they put in their time playing freshman as freshman and playing JV as sophomores.
Guess what? Coach only wanted to play kids who were going to help him win...period. And their kids weren't it.
Didn't matter what mom wanted or felt the kids were entitled to, etc.
All those kids were gone senior year too.
Just summing up the thread for those of us who got through college thanks to CliffsNotes.....
@BaseballMOM05 posted:Yeah, I deleted my rant. I felt it was pointless. It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business." Just doesn't seem right. Sometimes sports, whatever sport it is, is a person's only way to get to college. Just so many things I'm learning about this process and it makes me sad and mad - all at once! LOL!
It’s not personal. It’s just business.
- The Godfather II
Francis7, the comparison you make doesn't work. In the case of D1s especially, there has been recruiting, a coach has at some point said he thought you were good enough, or would/could become good enough. Or else why would you have gone to that school? So the coaches are at best careless and heartless (yeah, business, I get it). And once there, a lot of kids work really hard and are not entitled, and still don't make the grade.
@BaseballMOM05 I agree with you completely, have seen it happen. It's brutal and unfair. Really the only thing that can be said, as is said over and over, is, don't be a walk-on, if they don't give you scholarship money, go elsewhere. But even then...
@anotherparent posted:Francis7, the comparison you make doesn't work. In the case of D1s especially, there has been recruiting, a coach has at some point said he thought you were good enough, or would/could become good enough. Or else why would you have gone to that school? So the coaches are at best careless and heartless (yeah, business, I get it). And once there, a lot of kids work really hard and are not entitled, and still don't make the grade.
My point was that you are never entitled to anything in baseball. Maybe they recruited and romanced you heavily? Maybe they gave you money? Bottom line, if you show up and can't perform or if you perform badly when given the chance, nothing else matters. And, you won't be given more rope just because you think that you are entitled to it.
@anotherparent posted:Francis7, the comparison you make doesn't work. In the case of D1s especially, there has been recruiting, a coach has at some point said he thought you were good enough, or would/could become good enough. Or else why would you have gone to that school? So the coaches are at best careless and heartless (yeah, business, I get it). And once there, a lot of kids work really hard and are not entitled, and still don't make the grade.
@BaseballMOM05 I agree with you completely, have seen it happen. It's brutal and unfair. Really the only thing that can be said, as is said over and over, is, don't be a walk-on, if they don't give you scholarship money, go elsewhere. But even then...
I agree that you can't compare high school to college. If the college players were all on full rides, I might not have as strong opinions about this topic.
@Francis7 posted:My point was that you are never entitled to anything in baseball. Maybe they recruited and romanced you heavily? Maybe they gave you money? Bottom line, if you show up and can't perform or if you perform badly when given the chance, nothing else matters. And, you won't be given more rope just because you think that you are entitled to it.
Just be prepared that it is a hard pill to swallow. I’m sure the kid who could have been drafted, but chose school, thought he would get more than 8 at bats to prove himself. And for the record, I think he deserves more than that.
I don't think we talk enough about the schools who don't over recruit. If you know of one near you that isn't as cut throat but still puts out a good product, post about them.
Missouri State is one around here that fits that. They make a 4 year commitment and usually only carry 30 or so players. They are at 35 for next year. They had a higher transfer out number due to an assistant who is no longer there, but typically they are a low turnover program.
@d-mac posted:I don't think we talk enough about the schools who don't over recruit. If you know of one near you that isn't as cut throat but still puts out a good product, post about them.
Missouri State is one around there that fits that. They make a 4 year commitment and usually only carry 30 or so players. They are at 35 for next year. They had a higher transfer out number due to an assistant who is no longer there, but typically they are a low turnover program.
THIS.
I remember when we were early in the process and discussing a school. First thing the travel coach said to us was: This coach is a good guy and every year he only has 35. He doesn't over recruit.
That's a huge deal when you factor in all those other schools who will have 40 to 50 in the fall.
It's called due diligence. Do. Your. Homework. Ask the tough questions. If I remember correctly, my most important question to the HC on the visit was wanting to know about roster size and turnover. The HC said he usually runs with 32-35, but would reluctantly run with about 38 for the 20-21 year due to Covid. Is running with 37 so far this fall. I'd much prefer 32-35, but how many programs can say they're running with 37/38 guys and that their numbers are swollen? Different strokes for different folks, but I simply can't imagine being okay with my kid heading to a program with 40+ on their roster. 50+ would be mortifying, yet plenty exist at that size. My son enjoys PLAYING baseball. He is far from guaranteed playing time on his team, but Vegas likes his chances a helluva lot more than if he were on a team of 45, 50, or 55. No one can make things fair, but with some humility, some research and deprioritizing ego and bragging rights, you can get at least somewhere closer to fair.
@PABaseball posted:Only 12 may have 7 over expected. But how many forced kids out to get below the threshold?
In my opinion it's not about the # of players, it's about the amount of money. I don't believe coaches should be out committing 14.0 scholarships to current/future players when only 11.7 are available. You need 2.3 scholarships cut annually. I have no problem with a coach taking a few more walk-ons and making cuts in that area, when there isn't money attached you know you're expendable. But I refuse to get behind the idea the scholarship players need to be cut because the coach is over budget.
Maybe this strikes a nerve with me because the kid's roommate was cut after hitting .260 in about 25 starts as a covid freshman. The coach sat him down and told him they were over budget and asked him to give up his money. When he said no they told him his power numbers weren't there and he wouldn't be welcome back this fall. In July.
But maybe I don't think it's fair for a kid to commit to a school where the coach tells him he wants him and he passes on other opportunities to find out his money was yanked before signing day. Or for a player to put two years into a program and find out he's not going to be welcome back in the fall. This allows coaches to get lazy with recruitment and vetting. You basically get a 1.5 year free trial to see if a kid pans out. You don't have to really work to develop him because if he's no good after a year you can force him out.
I remember an article in 2013 (ESPN) that spoke about the issue that you've alluded to, so it has not changed, nor will it change in the near future.
18 mos is the average time for scholarship athletes.
Note, doesn't this happen with other sports or any business?
As for coaches "to lazy with recruitment and vetting", that is a slippery slope. The question is, what is their roster management strategy?
For example, what does Abilene Christian do?
If I'm a HS player I might shy away from this school
Looks like they get major of the players from JUCO.
What is their annual player turnover?
Note, each school will have their individual tendencies and the player/parents need to understand this is how life works.
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@Consultant posted:"Freshman Baseball Team"
This would provide opportunities for the "transition" process for the young player.
A "farm team" and development program for the College. Inter squad games. Coaches would be Minor League Professional players who are in School.
Bob
Ok. everything cost $$$.
Where is the $$$ coming from?
If you provide a development team for baseball, based on EADA, you have to provide same $$$ if not more to women's sports.
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This has been a very interesting and enlightening thread. Lots of different parent perspectives.
My son did not play for one of these cut throat D1s, but I know many that have. My son's best friend played for a P5 powerhouse...CWS champions. He came over our house during Xmas break freshmen year. We had a very candid conversation about how things were done in his program, and what the consequences were for not performing. He referred to it as the "dark underbelly" of the program. He was not painting a pretty picture....a far cry from his recruiting experience where he was recruited as a high school sophomore by many D1 programs (and followed by pro scouts) in our area. College baseball was a job 100% of the time to him versus my son's D1 experience where the coaches were forgiving if my son had labs or missed a day of practice for academic reasons. I've shared what I've known to those that have reached out to me. These high-end D1 coaches have one thing on their mind and it is winning. Everything else is peripheral. You do not want to be in there way, or an obstacle to winning. My son's best friend was a Fall cut as a college sophomore but he went on to get his degree at the same school. He had full ride D1 offers at other schools where he would have been a 4-year starter. Opportunity lost. He did not miss playing baseball at this school for one second.
If you don't understand or question any of this, then the top tier of D1 is not for you. Know thyself....if you have no problem following orders and doing what you are told without reservation then this might be the right fit for you. You have to bring "it" every day in practice and games because these coaches absolutely demand it. If not, I suggest you look at other college baseball options. There are plenty out there.
JMO.
@BaseballMOM05 posted:Yeah, I deleted my rant. I felt it was pointless. It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business." Just doesn't seem right. Sometimes sports, whatever sport it is, is a person's only way to get to college. Just so many things I'm learning about this process and it makes me sad and mad - all at once! LOL!
It has always been a business.
Just a new set of stakeholders going through the process.
Bottom line, look at the team's roster management patterns.
Become more informed and make the appropriate decision for your son and family.
@d-mac posted:I don't think we talk enough about the schools who don't over recruit. If you know of one near you that isn't as cut throat but still puts out a good product, post about them.
Missouri State is one around here that fits that. They make a 4 year commitment and usually only carry 30 or so players. They are at 35 for next year. They had a higher transfer out number due to an assistant who is no longer there, but typically they are a low turnover program.
Pre covid - about 41% Player attrition
2021 - 30% Player Attrition
2022 Projected 58% Player Attrition
Source of New recruits
Incoming By Position
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I think if you are wanting to go to a top D1 or P5 school then you better know the competition is tough. There is very little room for failure. I disagree that he only got 8 at bats to prove himself. That sounds like the parent I talked to last week who said her son has never gotten a chance to fully prove himself. He is a junior who has been through 3 falls and 2 springs (1 cut short) to prove himself. If you can't hit in practice, you have not earned the right to hit in a weekend game. Her son got 25 at bats last year and went 2/25. Probably 15 more than I would have given him since at one point he was 0/21. Her answer was he hit a HR last year. If you are looking to go somewhere to develop, then you must also be willing to sit for a year or two while you develop. Coaches only have so much time and they are trying to use it as wisely as possible. I also know the ones who complain they never got a full shot are the same ones who are not there putting in 2-4 hours extra work each day. When son was a freshman, he stayed until almost 11 each night getting swings in and working on mechanics of his pitching to earn a spot. I understand not every coach is a good guy but most are with what they have to do, which is win. If you want to go to an elite program, you better go in with full eyes open and know what is expected right away. Every year son's team has had a freshman or two that refused to enroll early for summer semester to learn what is expected. Then they and their parents get mad when they get chewed out or sent out of the workout for not knowing how to do the lifts or workouts that everyone does. If you want to play with the big boys, you better be ready to compete from day one. Not much room for figuring it out.
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:I remember an article in 2013 (ESPN) that spoke about the issue that you've alluded to, so it has not changed, nor will it change in the near future.
18 mos is the average time for scholarship athletes.
Note, doesn't this happen with other sports or any business?
As for coaches "to lazy with recruitment and vetting", that is a slippery slope. The question is, what is their roster management strategy?
For example, what does Abilene Christian do?
If I'm a HS player I might shy away from this school
Looks like they get major of the players from JUCO.
What is their annual player turnover?
Note, each school will have their individual tendencies and the player/parents need to understand this is how life works.
Any time you have a coaching change, the transfer numbers are generally high. The high number of transfers may or may not be the norm moving forward.
@fenwaysouth posted:If you don't understand or question any of this, then the top tier of D1 is not for you.
This is a simple sentence, but profound. Every player and parent will SAY the right things. They'll say "I'm not naïve. I know it's going to be super hard." and the like. But it's like the person (like my ex wife) who has no problem saying "I'm not perfect," but stops well short of backing the statement up with examples. For every 10 players/parents that SAY they have an understanding of how hard it will be/what they're up against, less than 1 actually truly KNOW it. They'll tell you that they have no delusions that their Johnny will see the field as a freshman, but inside they're 100% SURE he actually will. They're all 100% sure that Johnny will put in all the hard work AND that the hard work is essentially guaranteed to get him onto the field; and quick. But saying something and actually knowing it (and being able to articulate it in detail) are far from the same thing. But I do think people who frequent this site stand a better chance of actually believing the words that come out of their mouths when they inevitably say all the right things.
@d-mac posted:Any time you have a coaching change, the transfer numbers are generally high. The high number of transfers may or may not be the norm moving forward.
You are absolute correct, but in the case of Abilene Christian, since moving from D2 to D1, they have sourced the majority of their players from JUCO.
Yes, it is a "big" business.
The recent football game at E-Lansing with MSU and UM provided memories of the Athletic Dept at Michigan State U in the 1950's and 60's.
Two Rose Bowl football teams, College World Series for the baseball and Big 10 Championships for basketball, track and hockey.
We had 120 players for the Freshman Baseball Team, only 5 played in Omaha - 4 years later. The team included 3 football QB and one hockey player. This was competition.
A lesson learned "do not give up your day job"!!!
Bob
How important is winning to top program coaches? Look at Jack Leggett. He’s a member of the 1,000 win club. He’s sent a noteworthy number of players to pro ball. But he stopped winning 40-50 games per year, stopped beating South Carolina and didn’t win a CWS. He was shown the door after 22 seasons of .667 winning baseball. These top programs are on the receiving end of a lot of pressure to win from alumni.*
How much pressure to win do you think is on David Pierce? He’s following Augie Garrido. Texas hasn’t won a CWS since 2005. Garrido won two in three years at one point. Ever seen video of the post game locker room talk after Garrido teams lost a weekend series?
* I have an acquaintance who sits on the fifty for an SEC football team’s games. The amount of money he donates to the university is absurd. When he talks the AD listens.
Son (2020) was lucky, we never had D1 dreams. When younger, son never dreamed he would be good enough to play in college. As he got to HS it started to sink in that it was possible. He made a decision early on that his education was the first priority then baseball, but playing baseball was a must. While Mother Nature worked on him physically, it became clear that he was going to be able to play post-high school. There were convos with D1 - D3 coaches, but we knew to obtain the education he wanted that matched his desire to play, D3 was the place. Last year as fresh, he had a role out of the arm barn 😜, and was contributing till he lost a quarter of the season to a positive COVID test. He plays on a very good team in very good D3 conference and is getting a great education. The biggest problem I’ve seen during this journey is delusional players/parents not being honest about the players ability and where they fit. Ten of my son’s HS teammates from the four years of HS, went on to play in college, three only, three made it past first fall season. Most were delusional about where they fit.
Sons college coach told him in his first one on one after last fall season that there are some players on the team that just do not work as hard as everyone else, but will play just because they are better than everyone else. Son loved it.
There is a wide range of talent between the best and the worst D3 programs. But one thing that applies pretty much across the board is that D3 is a much more player friendly experience than D1 or D2. Because of that, I believe that more players should look harder at that option- especially if they don’t have the talent or the aspirations to play professionally.
Being a college baseball player can be a tough road. The example above of having 10 high school teammates and only 3 making past freshman fall is probably pretty common. A low percentage of kids have all of these: baseball talent, good athleticism, mental toughness, good grades, good work ethic, and a good attitude. With ALL of these it can be tough. Without all of them it is nearly impossible to be successful and have a good experience. Seems like more and more kids have an entitled attitude and have overestimated their ability and their value to a college baseball program.
Don’t leave out the part about parents overestimating their kids abilities. Where do you think those kids attitudes of entitlement come from?
@adbono posted:Don’t leave out the part about parents overestimating their kids abilities. Where do you think those kids attitudes of entitlement come from?
Bingo. In my opinion, this is quite possibly the biggest negative factor in this environment. The parents are supposed to be the adults in the room, but rarely are. If you think about all the peripheral things that feed into the monster, most can be tied back to the parents. The parents allow PG/PBR/etc to flourish. The parents think nothing about their kid walking away and entering the transfer portal. The parents fully embrace and throw gasoline onto the "my kid is getting screwed" fire. Like it or not, all the garbage that is out there exists because we've allowed it to. We created the petri dish but now struggle to understand why we're up to our eyeballs in bacteria. Point with the thumb. I can go first. I enrolled my son in travel ball at age 7. He played 8U ball twice.
Am I missing something? For my child, and granted it was collegiate softball, after the season, she had an exit interview where the coach laid out the next year and the monies that she would receive. Also, this was for every sport at her university. Therefore, are these players not receiving an exit interview where they are told what to expect the next year? Are they showing up for school without money guaranteed in some form?
@CoachB25 posted:Am I missing something? For my child, and granted it was collegiate softball, after the season, she had an exit interview where the coach laid out the next year and the monies that she would receive. Also, this was for every sport at her university. Therefore, are these players not receiving an exit interview where they are told what to expect the next year? Are they showing up for school without money guaranteed in some form?
Many coaches do that, but not all. Plus, even for those that do have an exit interview, there are some key differences between softball and baseball and two of the three can happen after the exit interview.
1. 11.7 baseball scholarships for up to 27 athletes (in a normal pre-COVID year), while D1 softball has 12 scholarships and I think it's fair to say that many D1 softball teams don't carry as many players. You definitely don't use as many pitchers in softball.
2. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm not aware that there's many summer softball leagues for college players where they may be seen by other coaches and coerced to change schools like happens in baseball.
3. The MLB draft can change things up for a coach and consequently his team depending upon who is drafted, who signs and who doesn't, etc. Softball may have a pro draft (I'm not sure), but it definitely doesn't have the impact on college softball as the MLB draft can have on D1 baseball teams.
@adbono posted:Don’t leave out the part about parents overestimating their kids abilities. Where do you think those kids attitudes of entitlement come from?
At the fall parents meeting with students when my son was a soph in high school the coach asked who wanted to play college ball. Everyone raised their hand. Then he asked who thinks they can play D1 ball. About half raised their hand. He proceeded to ask who has seen a D1 game (two D1 stadiums within biking distance). Three kids raised their hands. The coach commented only three kids in the room have shown the potential to play D1. He suggested players see the speed of a D1 game before they make the judgement. A lot of parents walked out grumbling over this statement.
As it turned out twelve kids from my son’s junior year roster went on to play college ball. The three he commented about (without naming them) were the only D1 players.
Of all the kids whose parents ended up claiming their kids got screwed in high school ball there wasn’t one case where it was true. But parents have to blame someone. Their kids peaked at 14u.
@Rick at Informed Athlete posted:Many coaches do that, but not all. Plus, even for those that do have an exit interview, there are some key differences between softball and baseball and two of the three can happen after the exit interview.
1. 11.7 baseball scholarships for up to 27 athletes (in a normal pre-COVID year), while D1 softball has 12 scholarships and I think it's fair to say that many D1 softball teams don't carry as many players. You definitely don't use as many pitchers in softball.
2. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm not aware that there's many summer softball leagues for college players where they may be seen by other coaches and coerced to change schools like happens in baseball.
3. The MLB draft can change things up for a coach and consequently his team depending upon who is drafted, who signs and who doesn't, etc. Softball may have a pro draft (I'm not sure), but it definitely doesn't have the impact on college softball as the MLB draft can have on D1 baseball teams.
Most college softball teams have three pitchers. The studdette, the adequate replacement and the freshman in waiting. My daughter played 22u ASA in the summer.
I have sent a lot of players to play in college in baseball. They have played at many levels but including B1G and SEC. Perhaps I missed one but I can't think of any one of them that didn't have an exit interview. If a player and his family depend upon that aid, then why would they risk returning to a school that, financially, they can not afford?
I saw my son at his first freshman year ball game in the spring. I had not seen any practices, and when I asked him how it was going the only response I got was “fine” or “good.”
I showed up for the first game with great enthusiasm. I had a new hat with the school’s colors—I was very excited.
When I got there the first inning had already started, and to my horror my son was on the field but not playing his preferred position! I was shocked—he never said that was a possibility!
Then I looked down the roster, and he was the only freshman on the field. So of course none of the other freshman parents wanted to commiserate with me. In fact, with a roster size twice what I was used to from the year before, I should have been thankful.
Oh, that was JV baseball at his high school. Why would college be any different?!
@CoachB25 posted:I have sent a lot of players to play in college in baseball. They have played at many levels but including B1G and SEC. Perhaps I missed one but I can't think of any one of them that didn't have an exit interview. If a player and his family depend upon that aid, then why would they risk returning to a school that, financially, they can not afford?
I think they are mostly talking about freshmen. Also, HS 2019s lost most of 2020, and then 2021 had large rosters, so coaches didn't cut players who ordinarily might have been cut at the freshman exit interview. Some of those were cut after the 2021 season, after they had been in college for 2 full (academic) years.
Somewhat related, but for a pitcher besides velo, strike %, etc, do not underestimate "availability" as a key attribute/metric to staying around.
What does availability mean?
@PitchingFan posted:What does availability mean?
I would guess it means always being available to pitch and not being injury prone and often not available. But that's just a guess.
Also mentally!
I'm guessing the next two weeks will be stressful on a lot of college campuses since fall practices will end after this week. End of fall meetings will begin and some cuts will begin to happen and others will be told they will not be used this spring.
@PitchingFan posted:What does availability mean?
Not injured and I not a long history of injuries.
Just got a text from a dear friend who's son was cut partly because of health issues he was having. The team did give him a lot of opportunities and encouragement but in the end it just wasn't a good fit. It was hard news but they are taking it as the clean break needed to find the right place for him.
Wow - it hits harder when it's someone you know.
My son was cut ,along with several others at the end of this year's fall season from his HA D1 program. He made it through the severe covid cuts in 2020 ( they cut 14 players) and hung in there for '21 but in the end didn't make it this round. Many factors could explain him being cut, but at the end of the day it's important to try to turn this negative into a positive and keep going.
I have been reluctant to post about it because honestly we were all pretty devastated to say the least. It now has sunk in a bit, he went in the portal asap, has been reaching out to coaches and may have found a good fit to transfer into but will mostly likely need to be an undergrad for a 5th year.
The covid year really threw a wrench in many players baseball story. It is hard because he's an academic junior and has an unbreakable bond with his team and really enjoys the school, so it's a complicated and difficult situation. The team has really come through for him in this tough time to say the least.
To echo everyone who has posted on this thread- HS seniors, ask the right questions on the official visit about roster management, try to see some games to understand coaching style and be prepared to transfer/listen to your gut if things are seeming off. Work your damn hardest in the classroom and in the gym and on the field . Examine the rosters of each team you are seriously considering and see how many freshman are still around senior year and you may be surprised, so you just have to be ready to adapt to change.
Fingers crossed he can find a good new home! Thanks for everyones knowledge and insights!
So sorry to hear that. I hope he can make a decision he is at peace with.
I’m so very sorry. :-(
@2thousand19LHP posted:My son was cut ,along with several others at the end of this year's fall season from his HA D1 program. He made it through the severe covid cuts in 2020 ( they cut 14 players) and hung in there for '21 but in the end didn't make it this round. Many factors could explain him being cut, but at the end of the day it's important to try to turn this negative into a positive and keep going.
I have been reluctant to post about it because honestly we were all pretty devastated to say the least. It now has sunk in a bit, he went in the portal asap, has been reaching out to coaches and may have found a good fit to transfer into but will mostly likely need to be an undergrad for a 5th year.
The covid year really threw a wrench in many players baseball story. It is hard because he's an academic junior and has an unbreakable bond with his team and really enjoys the school, so it's a complicated and difficult situation. The team has really come through for him in this tough time to say the least.
To echo everyone who has posted on this thread- HS seniors, ask the right questions on the official visit about roster management, try to see some games to understand coaching style and be prepared to transfer/listen to your gut if things are seeming off. Work your damn hardest in the classroom and in the gym and on the field . Examine the rosters of each team you are seriously considering and see how many freshman are still around senior year and you may be surprised, so you just have to be ready to adapt to change.
Fingers crossed he can find a good new home! Thanks for everyones knowledge and insights!
Sorry to hear about your son.
Thank you for posting this, especially when everyone is still dealing with the grief. I wish your kid the best in finding a new home to continue his journey.
So very sorry for your family and son. Hopefully he lands in a great spot for him! Wishing all the best.
I'm very sorry about what happened to your son and don't want to come across as insensitive. However, I couldn't help but ask. If he is at a HA school that he likes and is an academic junior, then why wouldn't he just stay and complete his degree? Couldn't club ball or a men's league satisfy his desire to play baseball while he completes his degree? Is he still hoping to become a pro prospect? Don't underestimate the benefits of graduating 2 yrs early and getting started on a career, that is exciting too. I wish you son luck in whatever path he chooses.
To @2thousand19LHP and all:
Considering the content on this thread, starting next week (~Dec 9th)
CBI Team Roster Turnover Insights will show additional information free version
Information to be included:
Total Outgoing Players
Total Outgoing Freshman
Total Incoming Players
Just as a reminder, we've published 2021 fall rosters for all divisions were available.
The goal of publishing the fall rosters is to provide family an overview of college's roster management strategy go forth.
Please note, it is not the end all be all, but just the start of what you need to know when assessing programs.
"Trust but Verify"
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Maybe it because its our sport of choice but the baseball journey just feels different than other sports. Maybe it has to do with being labeled our national pastime. Maybe the glorious history of the game adds some weight too. But to me the baseball journey resembles a love affair or a marriage. It is a roller coaster ride of every kind of emotion. It’s exciting and disappointing and can have the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. It starts awkwardly in the beginning, you figure out how to get good at it, something happens, and it’s over in a blink of the eye. Sometimes you don’t see the end coming and you aren’t prepared. It often doesn’t end well and it can be a loss that has to be grieved by the whole family. Hopefully after the hurt subsides you recognize that the relationship was good for you and helped you grow as a person. It would be my wish that your son and your family can get to that point as soon as possible. There is probably no other place you could post about this where more people would understand what you are feeling.
This won't help at all with the pain right now, but may well mean something down the road. Your courage to come here and share your painful story stands the chance of helping others. In fact, it's already helped me. I have a 2021 Juco son and just like everyone else, the odds are high that he'll get cut at some point. Could be very soon. You just never know for sure. But like most parents/people, we tend to get a lot of mileage secretly out the "it won't happen to me" tank. So as much pain as the situation has caused your son and family, know that real first-hand stories like this are better preparing us to support our own children and help educate others from hopefully feeling blindsided. You're positively impacting this community and I, for one, am very grateful. Pulling for you all and sending positive thoughts your way. Every day our kids get to keep playing the game they love is a gift and most here have family that got to play longer than most everyone else. Always keep that front and center.
@2thousand19LHP Thank you for sharing your story and I am truly sorry that your son got cut. Unfortunately, your story is far to familiar in the collegiate baseball world. Still, that doesn't make it any easier to process. Foremost, keep your son's mental state in mind, as this is just part of his journey, and life will throw him many curveballs. This will eventually make him stronger. It is awesome that his teammates have stepped up to support him.
I clearly remember the day I received "The Call" from our LHP of his release. He was devastated. I will tell you that there is life after release and transfer. Feel free to reach out (DM) if I can also support you and your family.
My son was cut his RS Junior season from a D1 Mid-Major. He pitched well the season before, until a toe injury significantly slowed him down. Even still, he lead the team in saves, had a solid ERA and very good k/9 ratio. Despite that, he was cut in the fall.
At first, we were panicked and devastated. But, the next day we developed a plan for his options. His primary focus was to get stronger and throw harder and load up on classes to graduate. He went to a baseball focused workout facility 45 minutes away and took a 19 credit semester in the spring, 4 credit "mid-term" and 6 credit summer.
Having a plan and hard work got him several dozen offers and in the end he chose one of the best P5 schools and is now in the minor leagues.
Getting cut in college is not the end, but can create new opportunities if you put a plan in place and put in the work
@314Calhoun posted:I'm very sorry about what happened to your son and don't want to come across as insensitive. However, I couldn't help but ask. If he is at a HA school that he likes and is an academic junior, then why wouldn't he just stay and complete his degree? Couldn't club ball or a men's league satisfy his desire to play baseball while he completes his degree? Is he still hoping to become a pro prospect? Don't underestimate the benefits of graduating 2 yrs early and getting started on a career, that is exciting too. I wish you son luck in whatever path he chooses.
Calhoun, thanks so much for your kind words. Not at all insensitive and definitely staying at his current school is not off the table ! He may try to graduate early and then still have eligibility left to play in grad school, so he'll have to weigh his options. The biggest part is if he decides to go that route , staying in shape and on a pitching program would need to be figured out since the club ball program at his school isn't very competitive.
@adbono @Suds @Picked Off @DanJ Wow, I am really humbled by everyone's kindness and I cannot thank you all enough for the support. It is inspiring to hear from you all. Stories like Suds son's are what makes us all keep the dream alive! I have been talking to my son to monitor his mental state and he seems like he's doing well under the circumstances, that was my first concern especially with him being out of state and not being able to see him in person.
As all of you know our "normal" friends just don't fully understand this stuff (: this is really one of the only places to discuss things like this. I am grateful for the bond my son and I have via baseball and all the amazing folks I have met along the way.
6 years of players in a 4 year window—somehow the compassion shown to the college classes of 2020 and 2021 has had trickle down effects on the underclassmen. Good luck with his studies and his love of the game! Keep grinding no matter what the future brings!
@2thousand19LHP,
Let me echo the sentiments of others. We can understand the situation and the emotions involved, and a lot of us have lived through similar times and come out better on the other side. My son was in the transfer portal last spring with no immediate prospects, but he kept working to make connections and ended up in a great program with improved educational and baseball opportunities. Let me know if I can help you guys.
Yesterday I got a call from a good friend who is an agent/advisor with a high profile sports agency. He is advising a top HS prospect on the east coast. Kid has an older brother (that can play) but needs to transfer at semester. My friend is an ex-player and a strong baseball guy. Based on his reputation and a phone call from me to a Texas JuCo HC the kid has a new home and a place to play this spring - on full scholarship. This was all word of mouth based on trust. Video that followed more than supported the decision. As a result an existing roster player will be cut and a kid that thought he was gonna be a starter in the OF will be moved to the bench. And this is how it goes at every competitive program in college baseball. Is it brutal? Yes, it can be. It’s survival of the fittest and only the very best players are exempt from it. It has always been this way and it always will be. But it seems more likely to happen now more than ever to any player that stretches to reach a program that he isn’t really good enough for. This underlines the importance of understanding what lane you belong in and staying in it if playing college baseball is important to you.
Spot on.
IMHO, the game hasn't changed, just the actors.
Coaches just have more resources to chose from.
It seems there can be a lot of turmoil during the winter, to your point, post fall season transfers.
I will also add that at no time during the conversations was there any discussion of metrics. The only things discussed had to do with in game production at the JuCo level, which was later supported by video.
Another real world example supporting going where you're loved and fishing in the right pond. The larger/regular contributors to HSBBW are already well aware of this, so this info is really for you parents/players newer to the recruiting process. @adbono and many others continually dish out first-hand straight dope for the benefit of you and your child. The onus is now on you to actually act on it. We all get it. Since our kids left the womb, we've been conditioned to tell them they can do anything they want to do in life. That the sky is the limit. To go after their dreams and ignore the naysayers. So it's incredibly difficult to fight the inertia of all that and suddenly take a hard left turn towards logic, reason and practicality. But make no mistake - that is EXACTLY what is best for you and your college recruit right now. The conditions and environment around college baseball - right or wrong - demand a change/augmentation to the dream. Our kids aren't really capable of fully understanding the risks and odds. Like it or not, we have 2 choices: 1) help them mitigate the risks by making smarter choices or 2) allow them to blindly continue chasing what is quickly becoming a pipe dream. Choose #2 if you're hell bent on keeping the dream alive, but know that you'll be hard pressed to find much sympathy from anyone who knows you were made aware of the risks and odds ahead of time. If you insist on building your house on the beach, you forego the right to complain when sand and water inevitably get in your house. Know that your kid didn't necessarily get "screwed." It's more likely that you/your kid screwed himself before he even set foot on campus. My fun-hating, dream-killing rant is over.
Well said @DanJ, and thanks for the kind words.
@adbono posted:I will also add that at no time during the conversations was there any discussion of metrics. The only things discussed had to do with in game production at the JuCo level, which was later supported by video.
My only question from a integrity perspective is:
What is worse? Being included in the fall cuts or being cut after fall cuts (december) and not being able to go elsewhere
What does the coach say to players that supposedly passed the fall cuts?
Does he say that you are currently on the bubble and there might be some players that drop down?
IMHO, if the player understands what may or may not happen and if the coach has a history of recruiting players post fall cuts, then he might look to see if there are greener pastures someplace else.
No simple answer.
I don't there's much question there - it's worse for the player to be cut at xmas and stuck there for another semester. The upside is that you've got a lot more time to find and decide on your next landing spot. And you get to do so while only being a student.
What does the coach say to those xmas cut players? Well, hopefully the coach was upfront with all his players if he runs a survival of the fittest at all times program. Then it's as simple as saying "I'm sorry, but better options came along."
I think some coaches with heavy consciences will let a player know if they're bubble, but ultimately the program as a whole supersedes all. Just like any business, the bigger picture will always win out. And that means casualties. There are lots of businesses/activities/etc out there with lower risks. Choose the one you can most easily stomach in terms of risk. Always look out for yourself and no one can let you down. Sadly, the genie is way out of the bottle at this point. The entire system is flooded with individuals who are going to do what is best for themselves at all times so long as other options exist. That's just as true for the players as it is for the coaches/admin/etc. No clue how you fix that.
It’s important to get some athletic money so the player knows the coach is invested. If a player is only getting academic money or his family has more than enough money to pay for college the player better know he’s a lock to play. Otherwise, bad things can happen.
A friend’s son was a backup first baseman for two years at a mid major. He didn’t have good foot speed. I encouraged the father for his kid to to learn how play left. He entered college competing against a top recruit first baseman/sometimes pitcher (6’2” 200) and a P5 transfer DH/P who also played first (6’3” 215). My friend’s son was 6’ 190.
This kid could pick it. He was the best I’ve seen in high school and travel. In high school, when my son was playing short he said he could come up throwing on any play knowing chances are the kid would pick it with worse case being knock it down. Twelve years later I can still mentally picture an incredible play they made on both ends. Imagine the shortstop throwing on his butt with the first baseman picking a one hop, bad hop, low throw that came straight up on him. He picked it like swatting a fly.
In limited college at bats the kid hit .400 for two years including a game winning pinch double against a ranked P5 opening day in his first college at bat. He hit the ball as hard as anyone. But he didn’t elevate the ball. The other two hit about .220 with some flashes of power playing full time for two years.
The kid wasn’t told his services weren’t needed until the coach called him into his office junior year two days before the team was departing for their opening series. The kid thought he was being told he wasn’t on the opening series travel squad.
At no time that fall and spring did the kid feel he was competing for a position. He was happy to be on the team, getting some pinch hitting appearances and getting his degree. It amazed me the kid was never used as a late inning defensive replacement. Had he been told after soph year he would have transferred to a D2.
@DanJ posted:I don't there's much question there - it's worse for the player to be cut at xmas and stuck there for another semester. The upside is that you've got a lot more time to find and decide on your next landing spot. And you get to do so while only being a student.
What does the coach say to those xmas cut players? Well, hopefully the coach was upfront with all his players if he runs a survival of the fittest at all times program. Then it's as simple as saying "I'm sorry, but better options came along."
I think some coaches with heavy consciences will let a player know if they're bubble, but ultimately the program as a whole supersedes all. Just like any business, the bigger picture will always win out. And that means casualties. There are lots of businesses/activities/etc out there with lower risks. Choose the one you can most easily stomach in terms of risk. Always look out for yourself and no one can let you down. Sadly, the genie is way out of the bottle at this point. The entire system is flooded with individuals who are going to do what is best for themselves at all times so long as other options exist. That's just as true for the players as it is for the coaches/admin/etc. No clue how you fix that.
@danj Totally agree.
Are there teams (especially here in Texas) that have a reputation for limiting cuts? Conversely , are there teams that are well known for over recruiting and then cutting large numbers?
@Adams Baseball posted:Are there teams (especially here in Texas) that have a reputation for limiting cuts? Conversely , are there teams that are well known for over recruiting and then cutting large numbers?
Yes and yes.
Do your homework on roster history and you can find out a lot.
Talk to players and parents in the programs of interest and you can find out more. I will share what I know about specific Texas programs in PM if you like
@Adams Baseball posted:Are there teams (especially here in Texas) that have a reputation for limiting cuts? Conversely , are there teams that are well known for over recruiting and then cutting large numbers?
It is not a foolproof method to know which schools follow which philosophy but:
If a school has a fall roster posted including incoming freshmen and transfers where the total number of players is in the 41-43 range, maybe a few more in the new pandemic era, those schools to use your term are "limiting cuts"
Be wary of the schools that don't post a fall roster or post a partial roster of just returnees. Those tend to be the schools that are over recruiting and throwing it against that wall in the fall to see what sticks. Those schools with some exceptions repeat the very same process every year because the seasons results indicate that the spaghetti they chose didn't stick long enough...
@Adams Baseball posted:Are there teams (especially here in Texas) that have a reputation for limiting cuts? Conversely , are there teams that are well known for over recruiting and then cutting large numbers?
You can use the following insight to understand roster management.
https://collegebaseballinsight...mp;mc_eid=edeb86d5a8
Note, 2021 fall rosters were published as preliminary view where provided. They will be reload by tomorrow.
For a couple of my son's friends who have transferred there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they were ever listed on the school's roster. For that reason I'd advise also looking at the Perfect Game commitments to a school for a given year.
Son went to college with one of his best friends from HS, a kid who was in the starting rotation at his HS (more of a prodigy as an East Cobb Player) and he was eventually cut from baseball as a result of an injury. He stayed with his scholarship and completed school, met his sweetheart and is recently engaged, and a now a GST patrolling Richmond county. That worked out for him but he pivoted and didn't pursue the baseball elsewhere. I saw many talented, highly-touted kids cut and also have their roles diminished along the way and personally, always appreciated the time my son got to play and to contribute knowing his playing time could be affected but things outside his control.
@K9 posted:For a couple of my son's friends who have transferred there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they were ever listed on the school's roster. For that reason I'd advise also looking at the Perfect Game commitments to a school for a given year.
Agreed.
Note, as we understand the PG is not the full list and there is a disclosure on the PG website with respects to accuracy.
Note, coaches also manage their spring roster in an interesting way. I've seen in many cases the coaches delete players that were inactivated, even if they have statistics.
Hi Everyone, been meaning to post this for a while now. Just wanted to say thanks to all for offering words of wisdom and experience during the very difficult time when my son was cut. Since then, things have been looking up....
He entered the transfer portal and was picked up by a California D3 school with a great team/coaching staff.The process was long and definitely challenging for many reasons , leaving your friends, life behind ,etc.He dropped down from a D1 to D3 ,but for him it works well and he is enjoying his new school and loving his new life out west.
Looking forward to the spring.
Happy Holidays to all!
Awesome news!