College pitching coaches...what do they actually do?

My son is a pitching coach. He actually is the volunteer at this moment. He will become the 4th paid assistant July 1 of this year.

What does he do? He works his ass off.

If you need further information on the particulars you can send a pm.

@fishnsail, like anything other vocation in life some are good at it and others are not. I understand your frustration and there are places where your comments are valid. And many where they are not. I am also a pitching coach although that’s not how I make a living. But I will offer some comments as food for thought. When I talk about pitching coaches I use a pie as a analogy.  Imagine the subject matter of pitching as a pie cut into 6 or 8 pieces. It’s not hard to find a pitching coach that knows about 1, 2, or 3 pieces of the pie well enough to teach it. He is probably regurgitating what was taught to him. But there are very few pitching coaches capable of teaching the whole pie. As a result most college pitchers tend to get incomplete instruction - which can not only be frustrating but also ineffective. However, it’s not a secret where the better college pitching coaches are and it’s your job as a parent to find that information if your son is a pitcher. I’m not saying that’s a simple thing to do but it’s possible. And btw TPM’s son is one of the better young pitching minds in D1 college baseball. But they are not all up to his standards. I will concede you that point. IMO there is a widespread lack of teaching at all levels of baseball until you get to the pro ranks. The job of parents, instructors, and advisors is to find the exceptions.

Thank you and very well said.

I want to try to help him and others. Maybe we could start a serious topic if folks want.

Thanks TPM and congrats on your son . sounds like he is different and making a great name for himself..

I posted this for a reason.

it is mostly my observations of the coaches and feedback I get from son and others..

we all hire PC for the kids in HS and so on and they tech and develop (hopefully)

in college that mostly goes out the window..

it's win first..other stuff not so important...

maybe frustration or maybe I see a need that isn't being filled (mostly) in college ball..

or both.

Some are very good and some just recruit and then play the numbers game. I have two pitchers in college now.

One says his pitching coach only pays attention to half the staff. Instruction is mostly on their own and on their own time and if you're at the end of the depth chart odds are they aren't even watching your bullpen. Mine regularly checks in with another pitching coach for instruction - who does not charge. The pitching is good in their program but inconsistent. A few pitchers who have not been given opportunities have transferred out and found success at other programs/at the pro level which is frustrating to see (happy for them, just don't understand why they were written off in our program)

The other is at a program where the PC is heavily invested in his guys and probably gives them more opportunities than maybe some deserve. When we were doing the recruiting tours this PC stood out because he told us point blank that he would be a bit of a project and that he likely would have some growing pains as a freshman, but his goal was to build him up to get meaningful innings and by the end of conference play be a regular contributor. The goal was to have him ready to be one of his guys for sophomore year. So far things look like they are going to plan. In HS - he had asked the PC after one of his starts what he needed to work on. PC broke it down for him for about 45 minutes post game. A lot of the others that were asked the same question mostly gave one point and said something like keep up the good work, get stronger, etc.

.fish,

Can your pitcher ask questions? Since you stated that all HS pitchers have pitching coaches, what did they learn.
Where is the heavy side of the ball? Ask the Coach.

Bob

Now on ESPN is a pitching clinic. What do your eyes see?

White Sox pitcher Dillon Cease is a clinic. Listen and learn.

Bob

TPM's son is an extrordinarily good pitching coach. He coached the pitchers for our Valley League team one summer and was the best we've ever had. He not only worked individually with our pitchers on techniques, he scouted upcoming opponents with an eye towards how each batter should be pitched, he let pitchers know when they would be throwing in games (short relief  or long, early in games or late, a long guy ready if our starter blows up, who is closing, etc.) so they could get their work in, and he met with our pitchers before games to discuss how we were going to pitch to certain batters.  We won the league title and he was a huge part of our success.  Ever since then, when we look for pitching coaches, we have him in mind as a model, and have actually suggested/required our pitching coaches to follow his mold.   This is what good pitching coaches do.

My son has had excellent pitching coaches throughout this life — mostly through pure dumb luck.

He started playing baseball 20 years ago (he's 23).  His first couple of pitching coaches both had played pro ball and I worried they would be too hard on him. I went to all the lessons and sat on a bench a few feet away, never heard a word those guys said because they talked only to my son. But they taught him to pitch, rather than just throw. They worked with him on grips, gave him workouts to develop his lower body (one great lesson was the first guy saying — develop your legs, otherwise you throw just with your arm. That's what I did and that's why I'm here teaching you instead of pitching in the majors).

When the older man died in a car accident, my son cried. After the funeral, he said mom, I feel stupid but he helped me make my fastball work last year. Now I'm taller and I've gained weight and I needed him to help me figure out how to adjust. What am I going to do?

College coaches revamped his motion so that he wouldn't rip his arm off, taught him to use analytics to improve the design of his pitches and to create and master new ones, and that was besides what they did in the dugout during games.

He had two different pitching coaches in college — both are now in the majors, but they still find time to watch his video, offer suggestions and occasionally, just chat.

Good ones, apparently, are gold.

@Iowamom23 is correct. Good pitching coaches are gold!

Son just answered — scouting hitters from opposing teams; creating in-season/off-season throwing programs; finding what kind of improvements a player needs to make and then implementing a plan to achieve those improvements; decide who would pitch and when; call all pitches during game; direction on pitching philosophy, educate players on pitch sequencing, how to rad swings/hitters, arm care and health; recruiting;; help players move to the next level.

Just as a note — this guy started his career as a professor of kinesiology.

For college pitchers, their pitching coach will be their first boss in the adult world.  This is the guy (or gal) that is going to make you better in theory, and give you more tools to compete.   

My son and I looked & talked to many dozen pitching coaches when he was being recruited.  We saw two kinds of pitching coaches.   First is the PC who is going to take what you've learned to this point foundationally, and teach a player within the player's own framework.  The second type of PC is going to scrap the players foundation, and teach the player based on the coaches foundation (we called this the cookie cutter approach).  Essentially, it is like a house.  Are you going to build off an existing structure or tear the structure down to build something "better" in theory.   My son preferred the first type as we believed his mechanics were the strongest part of his game.   The best PC's can do both methods.

Chemistry between a recruit/player with their pitching coach or position coach is absolutely at the top of my list.  Trust and a logical approach to pitching were an important combo that my son was looking for.   His pitching coach was a crafty lefty who knew how to best communicate even though my son was a RHP.   Everbody's situation is different, and I think my son felt the most comfortable with that type of pitching coach.

JMO.

What I recollect from freshman year is my pitching coach was a disciplinarian. He commented I must have been stolen blind with my weak move in high school. I smiled and responded, “What base runners?”

I spent the rest of practice running poles. The lesson was this is the next level. Don’t be smug. You haven’t proved anything here.

@hokieone posted:

TPM's son is an extrordinarily good pitching coach. He coached the pitchers for our Valley League team one summer and was the best we've ever had. He not only worked individually with our pitchers on techniques, he scouted upcoming opponents with an eye towards how each batter should be pitched, he let pitchers know when they would be throwing in games (short relief  or long, early in games or late, a long guy ready if our starter blows up, who is closing, etc.) so they could get their work in, and he met with our pitchers before games to discuss how we were going to pitch to certain batters.  We won the league title and he was a huge part of our success.  Ever since then, when we look for pitching coaches, we have him in mind as a model, and have actually suggested/required our pitching coaches to follow his mold.   This is what good pitching coaches do.

Thank you Jay. What you described is basically what he does and what good pitching coaches do. This is a good  question to ask the coaches who are recruiting your player how does he prepare the staff, same question to the hitting and catching coach! I sound like Bob  (that's a compliment).

I remember my phone call to you asking if anyone needed a pcoach for that summer. Perfect timing! That whole experience lead to his first job!

Hope that all is well!

B

I’m sorry you have never met a good one but my son’s is one of the best.  He takes kids from where they are and gets full potential out of them.  Works every day to help pitchers succeeding and those who are failing.  I’m guessing he is doing it pretty well.  

So then, the team ERAs of the two teams that have been described as having good PCs are very low.  Some teams have player ERAs that are much higher.  Is this a quick proxy, when someone is doing research about teams and pitching coaches?

Or is it too dependent on what kind of opponents the team is playing?  But you have to start somewhere with HS recruiting.

I think looking at ERA would be a good indication of the pitching program.

Absolutely.  Era is the gauge of pitching.  A good PC develops into low era.  

Just like any industry/position - when you meet a good one you know. Seems we have some really good examples here for the OP as they 'fish' and 'sale' their way thru the recruiting trail...  I still recall one PC during our recruiting time that took the time to talk with my son about a mechanical flaw on his tape and a reminder to use his legs more on his delivery. He took the extreme example of guys that landed wayyy far down the mound, but the point was made.

thank you for the reply's everyone!
I posted this for others(parents and players) who maybe are in the recruiting process or thinking about making a move...

research and  interview the PC.  find out if you click and if it is a "match"

so far our 3 pitching coaches :  none has "taught" or really given any mechanical advice at all.. not once.
it is kind of odd...

all are nice guys though..
I think that this maybe 80 % of the D1 situations.

have to figure stuff from other sources.

Fishtale,

they are not “miracle “ workers. During our 25 years of International travel I selected MLB former pitchers as pitching coaches. Check the name Dave Laroche

Bob

@fishnsail posted:

thank you for the reply's everyone!
I posted this for others(parents and players) who maybe are in the recruiting process or thinking about making a move...

research and  interview the PC.  find out if you click and if it is a "match"

so far our 3 pitching coaches :  none has "taught" or really given any mechanical advice at all.. not once.
it is kind of odd...

all are nice guys though..
I think that this maybe 80 % of the D1 situations.

have to figure stuff from other sources.

Hitting and pitching coaches aren't just doing practice stuff like mechanics, physical training and so on but are also involved in game planning, strategy and maybe even some scouting.

I don't know much about the pitching side but I know some older mlb hitting coaches do some quite outdated cueing when it comes to mechanics but pro hitters still enjoy working with them because they prepare them really well for the next game and pitcher.

For example there is a video of Kevin long having hitters smash balls straight down into the ground with the knob of the bat.

Many guys in the social media would rip him for that and personally I would likely not teach that drill but long is still very respected by many hitters and often his teams where among the lowest in ground ball rate in the league despite such cues.

At higher levels those coaches often work more on approach and game planning than doing a lot of mechanical overhauling.

Of course there are also successful coaches that are very hands on, in the end a coach is still not judged by his process but mostly by his results, even though that has shifted some with some teams.

One of the reasons that the NCAA added another paid coach more than likely is because there is a lot to cover in a short period of time. There are time frames within the year where coaches can and cannot instruct or practice with staff. The only time allowed with no restraints is if the player is in rehab. Unfortunetly it's like anything else in life, the more money you have to spend, the more chances of winning a championship. Being a student athlete in a top 50 program, is NOT for everyone.

It's also about $$$. Most P5 programs can afford a loaded staff. Their success depends on how many are there to help the program be successful. Even the smaller programs have more hands on deck than ever before, even in some smaller programs.

My suggestions, look at staff rosters and read bios before making a decision.

Ask questions. Understand staff expectations and goals. And understand that your player needs to find the right fit to match his goals.

Another important job for all coaches is scouting reports. Think about it, if a team has 4 games a week, pitching coaches have to scout almost every hitter that they will play, and relay that info to the pitchers before each game. Same goes for the hitting coaches scouting the pitchers. There is plenty of resources to accomplish these tasks as well as contacting area scouts for opinions. I think that the portal which has created more new players on staff each year makes work even more time consuming on all coaches.

I think it multiplied by the changing of rosters each year.  People ask why our pitchers are getting hit a little more this year and I believe a large part is analytics.  They had a year to prepare for them because our rotation is identical to last year even though we start a new fielding unit, our pitchers are almost unchanged.  The ability to use all the technology is incredible, but time consuming.

@TPM posted:

Another important job for all coaches is scouting reports. Think about it, if a team has 4 games a week, pitching coaches have to scout almost every hitter that they will play, and relay that info to the pitchers before each game. Same goes for the hitting coaches scouting the pitchers. There is plenty of resources to accomplish these tasks as well as contacting area scouts for opinions. I think that the portal which has created more new players on staff each year makes work even more time consuming on all coaches.

Iowa had a great system for that — student managers. They have tons of them, maybe 20? They do everything from writing scouting reports to on field promotions. They learn real skills and make the life of all the coaches easier. And when they graduate, they get jobs.

For anyone reading this, a similar discussion is going on in a different thread at the same time:  https://community.hsbaseballwe...ruiting-story?page=4

Juco coach had a written plan for every pitcher.  Follow it, don't follow it, that's up to the player.  He was also very good at recommending small changes here and there that seemed to produce big results.  They had a track record of developing arms for D1 and the draft and that is exactly what we saw during his two years.  I felt like it was a great balance of player freedom within a proven framework.  D1 has been almost completely on his own.

 

Fishnsail…

excellent topic you bring up. I’m 💯 in agreement with you. My son played in juco and at two D1 schools and none of the pitching coaches did anything in regards to coaching of players. Their mindset was either 1) if you aren’t good enough coming in then we’ll just upgrade you in the portal 2) either do it exactly my way or you’ll be sent to the back of the line (the end of the 25-man pitching roster).

They did nothing with video. Were masters of PFP work. Seemed like their whole job was holding runners, pfp & dialing the phone all day long in the hopes of finding as many arms throwing over 90.

One of the team’s my son played for completely turned over his own recruiting class 💯 in just two years before being fired. Oddly, the school kept the pitching coach. Our experience with college baseball has left a really bad taste. Between enormous rosters due in part to the ridiculous covid eligibility to semester to semester pulling of scholarships and incessant hyper recruiting 24x7…we left the scene wondering why so much investment was made all those years ago

@Bballsavante posted:

It is a weird situation..

just a thought..  if any of your kids eventually become a pitching coach ..

and you want to give them some advice..

be different.

first thing to do is to coach/teach/develop

the rest is logistical...”

Fishnsail…

excellent topic you bring up. I’m 💯 in agreement with you. My son played in juco and at two D1 schools and none of the pitching coaches did anything in regards to coaching of players. Their mindset was either 1) if you aren’t good enough coming in then we’ll just upgrade you in the portal 2) either do it exactly my way or you’ll be sent to the back of the line (the end of the 25-man pitching roster).

They did nothing with video. Were masters of PFP work. Seemed like their whole job was holding runners, pfp & dialing the phone all day long in the hopes of finding as many arms throwing over 90.

One of the team’s my son played for completely turned over his own recruiting class 💯 in just two years before being fired. Oddly, the school kept the pitching coach. Our experience with college baseball has left a really bad taste. Between enormous rosters due in part to the ridiculous covid eligibility to semester to semester pulling of scholarships and incessant hyper recruiting 24x7…we left the scene wondering why so much investment was made all those years ago

Bball..  yes it seems like the case in 90-95 % of D1 situations.. there are exceptions such as TPM son..

check out the other Hall of Fame thread that broaches some and more of this topic :A recruiting story..

https://community.hsbaseballwe...56#75784881073112856

I have a new funny story about the PC deal..
so on son's team we have a  6' 5" built RHP  who can throw fairly hard  92-94 ish..
however he has a difficult time pitching downhill.. last few appearances he tends to fall off way left on his landing foot and will literally fall down once every couple  batters .
It is clear as day and a fairly easy fix(compared to other fixes).

and the fix "could/should"  even improve velo to a very highly desirable range with better control that would work well in higher places..
I asked son(friend of this kid)  "has the PC tried to help him with this"?
PC has never said anything about it. ...

I mean if you were a LL coach you would probably try to fix it..
but yeah the PC- he is a nice guy though..
kind of explains the whole deal .. it has been the same for 3 schools..

I will add another story for next week..lol   
have a great weekend.

I'm gonna call this.  It seems that the ones who have went to and stayed at D1 schools have good experiences and like most situations, the ones that are not the front line pitchers have had bad experiences.  I find the same with hitting coaches and head coaches.  When your son has a good experience, you seem to think the coaches are good and when you get "shafted" you think the coaches are idiots.  Is that a fair statement?

I would only add - Odds would indicate half of all pitching and hitting coaches are below average…

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm gonna call this.  It seems that the ones who have went to and stayed at D1 schools have good experiences and like most situations, the ones that are not the front line pitchers have had bad experiences.  I find the same with hitting coaches and head coaches.  When your son has a good experience, you seem to think the coaches are good and when you get "shafted" you think the coaches are idiots.  Is that a fair statement?

...and when they start playing my kid, they seem less idiotic.

@fishnsail

Thank you for the compliment.

As an FYI for anyone, there are many very good college pitching coaches all over the country.

They are found at all different programs. The problem is that everyone thinks they all work at D1 programs.

I agree with JucoDad half of most coaches are way below average.

If anyone follows D1,2,3 RPIs, you can get an idea of who is getting it done and who isn't. That's the best indicator of who has the better coaching staffs.

JMO

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm gonna call this.  It seems that the ones who have went to and stayed at D1 schools have good experiences and like most situations, the ones that are not the front line pitchers have had bad experiences.  I find the same with hitting coaches and head coaches.  When your son has a good experience, you seem to think the coaches are good and when you get "shafted" you think the coaches are idiots.  Is that a fair statement?

I think that this is generally true and simple math will support that it is. If you have a 40 man roster only about half see regular playing time - 10 pitchers & 10 position players. So half of every active college roster is not happy - more or less. Now consider all the players that are in the transfer portal. All of them are unhappy, with a few NIL exceptions. That tips the scales to the point of more players being unhappy than players being happy. Which I believe is the reason you hear so many bad stories. It’s a greater probability that you will hear a bad story. I know that this is over-simplified but nonetheless true IMO.

When my son started HS, we were so happy because we thought that finally there would be coaches who weren't dads, who were committed to helping all the boys become better players.  And, we found that to be correct, although we did not quite expect that the players would be still doing instruction and workouts on their own time in addition to team stuff.

So I assumed that college would be one step more professional than that.  That the coaches would be hired because they knew baseball and were good at teaching it and would have every incentive to do so for all players.  D3, of course, is very different from D1 in terms of practice time allowed with coaches, and we knew that, too.  I think it has worked for my son, he has gotten help when needed, and he works and studies baseball very hard on his own, too.

Also, as a non-baseball person, I did not realize how many different parts there were to pitching - not just mechanics, but also scouting opponents, pitch sequencing, analytics, etc.  I am continually being educated about something new.  I say this for readers who might not be experienced in pitching.  No coach could handle all of this with an entire large staff, and no doubt some PCs are better at some parts of it than others.  I'm going to assume that college PCs are looking at more than just velo and mechanics when deciding how much and what kind of effort to put into each pitcher.

Having said all that, there has been much conversation recently about changes to recruiting rules, and the fact that college coaches won't have as many years to talk to recruits.  I do wonder, what was said in all those years of conversations?  Did it lead HS recruits to believe that the PC would develop them and help them improve?  Are those who are disappointed mainly late recruits who did not spend years talking to the PC? 

Parent,

you have acquired a great knowledge. College coaches have the insight of coaching players who have several previous pitching coaches and advisors. The 1st step is to learn the player opinion of his previous coaches. The question of WHY?  When? Where?

What? And How? Then the next step to success.
As Joe Morgan said in our clinic. I can talk base running and base stealing for 10 minutes or 10 hours.
Bob

Another player parent said something last week that rings true….when you see the underbelly of just about anything, it becomes much less appealing.

For me, a pitching coach in college is not a pitching instructor.  He has 20 plus guys to work with and very limited time to do it.  He will take the pitchers and the skills they have and add to them.  He does not have the time or energy to rebuild a pitcher's motion.  He cannot spend 30 minutes a day with each pitcher.  No different than hitting coaches cannot spend 30 minutes a day with each hitter.  The parents or player who thinks the coach can take them from where they are and add 10 mph or teach them a new pitch a year are unrealistic, imo.

My son's pitching coach does a great job per numbers year in and year out throughout his career but there are those who just can't pitch for him.  He has crazy numbers of guys who have/are pitching in MLB as does a few others.  But he also has a few quirks that will keep guys from pitching for him.  He despises walks.  You walk a lot a guys you don't see the mound.  People ask me all the time why so and so does not get to pitch and I say look at his strikeouts versus walk ratio.  Too high.  Some guys can't figure out the location thing and so they don't get outings.  He also is adamant that a pitcher does not change his motion to hold runners on.  If you have a slide step and it does not hurt you, then fine, but he is not teaching it.  If you do your job the farthest they can steal is third.  If you did your job, they would not have got on.

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm gonna call this.  It seems that the ones who have went to and stayed at D1 schools have good experiences and like most situations, the ones that are not the front line pitchers have had bad experiences.  I find the same with hitting coaches and head coaches.  When your son has a good experience, you seem to think the coaches are good and when you get "shafted" you think the coaches are idiots.  Is that a fair statement?

not quite..
congrats to you for having a son on a very successful ranked D1 with draft interest.
but..however this could lead to an extremely clouded view..
IMO.. development improvement needs to be addressed..
and players not treated like commodities.
hey what do I know?  only have spoken to about 200 parents/kids and it seems the same ,across the board ,all over the country. ...

I have also had a son who lost 5 miles an hour in college, and lost MLB interest and the love of the game as a player because of a pitching coach, who was eventually fired, and not in the game anymore.  He pitched either starter or major closer every weekend   So I have seen both sides but just know most who think the coach is bad don’t get to play.

@PitchingFan posted:

I have also had a son who lost 5 miles an hour in college, and lost MLB interest and the love of the game as a player because of a pitching coach, who was eventually fired, and not in the game anymore.  He pitched either starter or major closer every weekend   So I have seen both sides but just know most who think the coach is bad don’t get to play.

I can appreciate that as you know that side of the coin. and it isn't fun.. I am sorry for your other son's experience. and wish he could have a do over..

best wishes for him and your current son.

But as far as the PC's-  I am speaking in overall terms.

not about Daddy or Mommy ball..

not whether "my kid or that kid " plays or not... that wouldn't affect my viewpoint

Many/most PC's , from what I have heard and seen from many.. do not delve into the mechanical nature of a pitchers delivery.
which maybe should be the #1 or #2  job description??
don't care if kid is the first overall pic or last guy on the totem pole or someone's retread..  don't care if he pitches 80 innings or 1 inning..  or wins the CWS or is on some low D1 hellfire somewhere..

A PC should be a problem solver and know when to step in and try to fix..but equally know when to not touch..
and if you do not have the ability to help and improve a pitcher (mechanically , intellectually and emotionally)
then you should not be a PC...

I get that but that is also not all they have to do.  As TPM, said somewhere up here they have to scout 2-3 teams a week with 11-15 batters and make scouting reports for their players which takes a lot of time.  They also have to prepare a pitching plan for 4-5 games a week for starters and bullpen.  There is only so much time in a day.

We talk about turnover and new players coming in.  A PC has to figure out who can pitch and who just throws.  Try to fix a few things in a pitcher but that is about all they can do.  The average D1 team now has 20-25 pitchers.  Now we know that only about 10-12 of those are going to be used.  So do you invest your time in the 10-12 that are going to help you win or the 10-12 that are not going to help you win this year and may not be here next year.  It is tough.  You only have 20 hours a week that you can work with players.  The math does not work out.  I know it may not be fair but coaches have to make choices and everyone of them and us would do the same.  Invest in the ones that are going to help you win.  You also understand that most PC's do not have qualified volunteer coaches who can help them work with pitchers so it is hands on.

I think as in about anything, you can’t apply your experience to be the standard.  When we are done, I could share some examples of lots of everyday starters who would not describe their experience as good.  

When you say they don’t have time to rebuild a guy…I wish they wouldn’t. Recruit guys you like. We’ve had multiple guys turned into side arm guys.  When things went south, the parents said they were basically told to figure it out.Hard to do when you’ve never thrown that way before and now your arm hurts). My son spent his entire first semester doing only weighted balls to change his arm path. Never even threw a pitch in fall until the last week. That was never mentioned during recruiting and did not make him better. He showed up at campus pretty dang good. Tweaking I think is fine, if you then evaluate the tweaks.  We have  quite a few guys that showed up on campus very good (by a pretty big consensus) who have regressed. And we have a pitching coach who is by many accounts “one of the best in the nation”.  We never even considered asking if they planned to change his delivery. Hindsight.

Bottom line, there are good coaches, mediocre coaches and bad coaches.  A good coach can mean different things to different people. Maybe a coach that adds a tweak that makes a big difference, maybe instilling confidence, maybe leaving a kid alone, maybe it’s building a positive culture. I guess you have to know what you need from a coach.

How did you not know this before your son went there?  Did you not research the PC's past and what his previous players had to say about him?  We contacted the successful ones and the ones who left a program.  Looked at the ones who were recruited and never played to find out why.  Some of it was not legit and most of that was not hard to figure out.

  For those of you that don’t know, @baseballhs and her son have been thru the wringer. She has been incredibly respectful toward her son’s school in the comments she has made publicly. Not sure I could have dealt with as many issues (caused by coaches) and maintained my composure the way she has. Hats off to her!
  IMO one of the biggest problems regarding college PCs are the unrealistic expectations of players (and parents) when they enter the program. @PitchingFan described the real world very accurately in his last post. It’s a numbers problem. Only so many hours in a day/week. Only half the pitching staff is contributing. So the hours that are available are spent on those that contribute. People that expect pitchers that aren’t contributing to get attention from coaches for “development” during a season in which they aren’t helping to win games are unrealistic - even delusional. It’s not gonna happen. If you find yourself in that position (as half the college pitchers always are) you have 2 choices. Either leave and go to a place where you are good enough to play. Or work hard to get good enough to play where you are. In the latter case you will need to take charge of your own development. Figure out what you need and find out where to get it. Which is probably the advice to apply to the issue of development across the board.

@PitchingFan posted:

How did you not know this before your son went there?  Did you not research the PC's past and what his previous players had to say about him?  We contacted the successful ones and the ones who left a program.  Looked at the ones who were recruited and never played to find out why.  Some of it was not legit and most of that was not hard to figure out.

There is no way to predict when a PC will decide that he needs a LH and a RH sidearm guy out of the bullpen at any cost. And there is no way to predict that it will be your kid that a PC decides to experiment with. Personally, I think it’s terrible (with an occasional exception) to change a kids arm angle if he is healthy.  And it seems to be happening at an alarming rate……when it should be a last resort type of thing.

I agree it’s up to the fact that in our recruiting process, we found that coaches would convert pitchers to side arm, and others never convert. I find that very few try to convert left, handed pitchers to side arm, but there are those who will say to a player, you will never compete here, unless you become a SideArm/submarine pitcher, or some other kind of specially pitcher.  Normally, those are soft, throwing right handed pitchers.  But very rarely does that not show up in the scouting report for the pitching coach.  And yes, I had a scouting report on about 20 pitching coaches.

@PitchingFan posted:

How did you not know this before your son went there?  Did you not research the PC's past and what his previous players had to say about him?  We contacted the successful ones and the ones who left a program.  Looked at the ones who were recruited and never played to find out why.  Some of it was not legit and most of that was not hard to figure out.

I think our year was the second time he had changed guys to sidearmers. He changed 2 our freshman year because the guy that was changed the year before did well. Even right now he is widely considered and referred to as one of the best in the country.  He was always complimentary of son, never mentioned any changes. I think with all the returning 5th year established guys we had in 2020, plus the 11 pitchers in our incoming class, they became experiments. We had literally never heard anything negative.  I think the COVID year, portal, grad transfer thing may have changed the way he handled pitchers/players. It is starting to catch up ….

btw, one rhp and one lhp were both converted. Both sat 92-94. Both did very well that first year. Both have had injury issues since.  One has regressed and rarely pitches now.

How do pitching coaches not have time? I really hate the argument that there isn't enough time to do anything with these kids. That's all they have is time. That's not to say that they don't have lives and they don't do any actual work but when your title is Pitching Coach and you don't have another job to go to - how do you not have time?

20 pitchers on a roster. 30 minutes with each of them once a week comes out to 10 hours. I have a hard time believing a Pitching Coach does not have 10 hours a week to work with his pitchers individually considering most people work 40+ hour weeks as the standard.

That's like a vet saying they don't have any time to look at sick animals.

To me it's a lazy excuse. The idea that the pitching coach doesn't have time to work with pitchers is a really weird and sad sentence.

The NCAA allowing a 4th paid coach will open up the opportunity for more coaches to spend time with players.

Will be interesting to see how many ML scouts will be lured away from their current position to become college scouts.

There’s a lot of parental emotion in the baseball journey and I can vouch personally it’s not always based on objectivity.

There’s not a lot of control in how anyone’s son will connect with a coaching staff or what opportunity he will have. How your son navigates those coaching relationships, his work ethic, supplementing what he believes he needs on his own and a fair bit of luck will all factor into his successes and failures.

Very few  pitching (and hitting) coaches are actually qualified to make major mechanical changes and I think for most leaving a players core mechanics alone and only making a few tweaks here and there is the way to go.

Of course there is some stuff you can Improve, especially balance, footwork, Stability and so on but with stuff like changing arm slot I wouldn't want 99% of coaches to ever touch that.

There are some guys I would trust with that like for example driveline but with many coaches mechanical changes are simply guesswork based on what they think is right without really understanding the biomechanical reasoning and down stream effects that a change could have.

I'm not saying a PC should never work on mechanics but very few are qualified to make changes to the core of the mechanics and those coaches are better off focusing on stuff like pitch mix, scouting, game planning and so on and only make mechanical adjustments if something got really out of whack.

Completely rebuilding a pitching staff from the ground up could be a recipe for disaster if you are not having big resscources like a biomechanics lab and very qualified coaches.

@TPM posted:

The NCAA allowing a 4th paid coach will open up the opportunity for more coaches to spend time with players.

Will be interesting to see how many ML scouts will be lured away from their current position to become college scouts.

I am going to correct myself on my post.

It's not all the things that coaches have to do but how much time that the NCAA regulates coaches can spend on each player in fall instructs and team practice. In season for pitchers its the bullpen.  Players can work on skills together.

Coaches have relationships with different summer programs and request that certain players get instruction on things they need to work on. So summer seems to be when players need to use that time to become successful.

cannot open the HS web site, can you?
Bob

On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 8:53 AM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:

This led me to think because that might be the problem.  What constitutes a good coach?  Watched the Mississippi State pitching coach get fired this week and wondered ultimately why?  Was he the sacrificial lamb?  Was it stats?  Was it wins and losses?

What determines for you if a coach is successful?  Pitching coach?  wins and losses, team era, guys getting drafted, guys staying?  Hitting coach?  wins and losses, batting average, guys getting drafted, guys leaving or staying?  Head coach?

I'm sure our definitions of successful coaches, pitching, hitting or head coach are different.  How we decide what makes one successful, what factors we use, what is success and failure.  I realized this recently when we had a discussion of successful teams or top teams.  To me the top 20-30 teams in college baseball are the top teams but that was different for many others.  Some it was top 100 teams were top teams.  Your thoughts?  Because that may be the problem with answering what is a good pitching coach.

I don’t think you have to be in a top program, to be a good/great coach. The best coach we ever had, only had a small stent at a smaller private D1. Prior to that, he just did private lessons with high school kids, and worked with a club. Almost every kid he worked with funneled into top P5 D1 programs. Was more knowledgeable about the tech and how to actually use it than anyone I’ve spoken to. He also knew that it shouldn’t drive development, it should assess it. He cold make small tweaks that made huge differences, while utilizing a kid’s natural motion. Would identify issues almost immediately. His communication style was very straightforward, which I think may be why he ran into less success at the college level. Would still want to work with him more than any other coaches we have been exposed to.

Not argumentative, but I'm assuming you are defining him as a successful coach by the fact that he got players to P5 schools or is it the relationship that you had with him.  I'm really trying to figure out how people define success and this has played right into my premise.

This actually comes into play into my sermon series as to what defines a successful parent, child, or family.  I'm trying to figure out if success is a fact (stats) or a feeling.

It’s a mix of knowledge and making meaningful changes, that made kids that work with him, better pitchers.  To me a coach is different than a manager.

I also think outstanding coaches build relationships with their players. Build confidence.  Bring out the best and utilize strengths.

I have no idea how he was with bullpen management, which factors into an overall good coach at the college level.  So I guess to me, it would be a mixture of those 3 elements. If all you do is manage the talent that is there, to me you are a good manager, not necessarily a good coach. I think college kids need more than a manager to build a good culture. They are still kids.

Probably a bit of a unicorn to have it all but I know there are a few.

@PitchingFan

Firing the pitching coach was a warning sent out to the staff and players. The sacrificial lamb so to speak.

I think Lemonis gets let go and Southern Miss staff gets the nod, or they may just hire their PC.

As I have said before there are a lot of really good coaches out there but lack the tools that the larger programs have at their disposal to make them more competitive.

JMO

@PitchingFan I think a successful parent is one who provides the love, guidance and support for each child to become the best version of themselves. Are they happy, are they contributing member of society, do they walk humbly, are they compassionate? Anything else is gravy.

I think good coaches help players reach their full potential. But just like with parenting, there are outside factors. Does the coach's style resonate with the player? Is the player willing to put in the hard work? Injuries. Starting talent level of the pitcher vs. Ceiling (i.e. did the kid show up over pitched or already peaked). Coaching is a brutal business at almost every level for one reason or another.

@PTWood posted:

@PitchingFan I think a successful parent is one who provides the love, guidance and support for each child to become the best version of themselves. Are they happy, are they contributing member of society, do they walk humbly, are they compassionate? Anything else is gravy.

I think good coaches help players reach their full potential. But just like with parenting, there are outside factors. Does the coach's style resonate with the player? Is the player willing to put in the hard work? Injuries. Starting talent level of the pitcher vs. Ceiling (i.e. did the kid show up over pitched or already peaked). Coaching is a brutal business at almost every level for one reason or another.

A+++

Part of the question is that success in the moment is not the same as success in hindsight or over the long term.  Isn't it often said that no-one likes his coach while playing, but afterward you realize what was taught?   A college coach whose players graduate but don't win many games - is he a success or not?  At what point can you determine it?  5 years later?  10?

BTW as a pitching or hitting coach you are always a bit on the mercy of luck too.

There are definitely good and bad coaches but there are cases where a PC is going to be scapegoated even if he did a good job.

1 or 2 injuries and a couple guys slumping and even a well respected coach can fall out of favor quickly.

It is a tough job and so much can go wrong in pitching, one guy from baseball prospectus famously said there is no such thing as a pitching prospect, meaning everyone can get hurt or be bad suddenly.

@Dominik85 posted:

BTW as a pitching or hitting coach you are always a bit on the mercy of luck too.

There are definitely good and bad coaches but there are cases where a PC is going to be scapegoated even if he did a good job.

1 or 2 injuries and a couple guys slumping and even a well respected coach can fall out of favor quickly.

It is a tough job and so much can go wrong in pitching, one guy from baseball prospectus famously said there is no such thing as a pitching prospect, meaning everyone can get hurt or be bad suddenly.

This is so true. Look at what happened at MSU.

As an assistant coach you are at the mercy of others who make decisions as to who will be on the roster. Then it's your job to turn them into pitchers who will help that team.

The only thing I question is why are there so many injuries with pitchers this year?  It's the pitching coaches and trainers job to keep them healthy.

When considering a program, players should certainly consider that information.

I've wondered the same over the past 3 years.  I think it is the push to increase velocity.  My son is a unicorn to be pitching in SEC at the speeds he throws.  But all the scouts are pushing him to show the 94 he threw in the fall.  "We have to see it to draft you." I think that mentality is causing guys to do whatever it takes to get the velo up.  I heard one say the other day that if one of our guys in particular can show the 100 consistently he will make a huge jump.  Like 99 is not good enough.  And if they tell the kid that you know he will do whatever to get there.  I do not think it is overuse like it used to be.  Most do not throw over 100 pitches in a game.

There has never been a time when so many guys were throwing so hard. That said, it makes the management and training/recovery for them even more important and I’m not sure everyone understands what that means or take it as seriously as they need to.

There have been lots of discussions on why injuries happen so often.

Pitching development has been great at stuff like increasing velo and pitch design but injury reduction so far wasn't successful, it even seems to get worse.

A lot of stuff gets blamed for this: youth pitcher overuse, weighted balls, throwing hard and now even pitch design gets targeted because some guys think certain pitches like the sweeper are more likely to hurt the arm.

So far there isn't any real evidence for any of those theories, a lot has been tried and so far nothing really helped.

Even the smartest teams in mlb with the best player development have a ton of injuries, so I guess there isn't a solution yet.

I think it is just the human body and nobody can completely figure it out.  We can have theories but only one knows.  I have kept my eye on Skenes at LSU and how his body responds this year.  He increased his number of pitches greatly on the season.  He added at least 7 mph consistently and he throws more pitches per game.  I hope it works for him because he seems to be a good guy.  Son likes him and they talk.  But I've just been intriqued to see how his body deals with the changes which are all to big extremes in the baseball world.