College Summer League Rosters

The league has generic rules. They avoid a lot of conflict. The rules will be broken for deserving exceptions with connected coaches.

@RJM posted:

The league has generic rules. They avoid a lot of conflict. The rules will be broken for deserving exceptions with connected coaches.

As with most things baseball…

Just seems like a bad rule to me.

"Yeah, our league is 90% D3 and Juco players. If you want to play as a rising freshman, you can play with us if you're heading to a 290th nationally ranked D1. But, if you're heading to a Top Ten nationally ranked D2, sorry, you need the reference of a major league scout."

Just seems ignorant and/or stupid to me.

Their league, their silly rules. Most important thing is to play on a league the coach recommended. There may be future teammates on the roster.

@RJM posted:

The league has generic rules. They avoid a lot of conflict. The rules will be broken for deserving exceptions with connected coaches.

@RoadRunner posted:

As with most things baseball…

@T_Thomas posted:

As with most things anywhere…

That was almost gonna be my post. But things are so upside down in the world right now that I couldn’t bring myself to say that.

@Francis7 posted:

Just seems like a bad rule to me.

"Yeah, our league is 90% D3 and Juco players. If you want to play as a rising freshman, you can play with us if you're heading to a 290th nationally ranked D1. But, if you're heading to a Top Ten nationally ranked D2, sorry, you need the reference of a major league scout."

Just seems ignorant and/or stupid to me.

Try not to be discouraged. Many other leagues have rules surrounding rising freshman as well. Some limit the number of rising freshmen, for example.

Francis; is this the League for your son? Did you check the "Financial Records" for the League. They will provide you with the answers.

Bob

The kids going to the Top 5 D2s who are not invited to play in the league are either

A. Not from the area. B. Heading to campus to get bigger, stronger, and acclimated to college life. Because that is more important than hanging around and playing in a local league just for the hell of it. C. Already above this league - talent wise

Tampa, Mesa, and the like are the exception, not the rule. Well over half of Tampa's roster is either a D1 dropdown or a JC stud transferring in. Tampa gets used as an example quite a bit on this board. Tampa is a mid level ACC school playing D2. They are not a good example for anything other than to prove just because you don't play D1 doesn't mean you don't have talent.

There is also a significant drop-off once you leave the D2 CWS realm. The teams closer to 25 are not going to run away with every D1 conference. I have seen a ranked D2 play quite a bit as former teammate of '19 plays for them. He's a good player, and they're a good team, I enjoy watching them play when they're in the area. But if you put them in any D1 conference local to the area they put will put up similar results to the "lowly" teams you mentioned.

Also don't listen to garbage you hear. I can assure you nobody involved with Major League Baseball goes anywhere near this league. I can also assure you that this league is based 90% on coaching placement and 10% on filling out rosters. If the D2 powers feel they are not getting enough representation in this random league, the HC of Tampa should sit down and have dinner with league director.

I can also assure you that any D1 player in this league is likely going to be battling for a final roster spot in the fall or has a very unique reason for being there (like one of the kids from our school whose father has stage 4 cancer and wants to be as close to home as possible).  

@Francis7 posted:

Just seems like a bad rule to me.

"Yeah, our league is 90% D3 and Juco players. If you want to play as a rising freshman, you can play with us if you're heading to a 290th nationally ranked D1. But, if you're heading to a Top Ten nationally ranked D2, sorry, you need the reference of a major league scout."

Just seems ignorant and/or stupid to me.

If a kid is headed to a ranked D2 he should be able to get a recommendation through his coach.

Francis is discussing the Atlantic League. My son asked his P5 coach to place him with a team in Northern NJ so he could do an internship in NYC. His coach flipped out on him for wanting to play in the league.

Then, the coach asked my son a stupid question given he was headed into his senior year. “What’s more important? Becoming a better baseball player or the internship?”

His post season surgery solved the problem? The internship led to the job he had his first five years out of college.

Francis7, with respect, I like most of your posts, but right now you seem really to be trying to create separation between (unworthy) D3 and (worthy) D2 baseball players.  It's not worth your time.  There's a big range of players in D3, and in D2, and in NAIA.  The players that I know from HS who went to D2s and became benchwarmers were about the same level as the ones who went to D3s and started.  The truth is that most people who are not in the business or athlete parents don't know the difference.   Have your son focus on creating good relationships with as many people in baseball as possible, that's what will matter.

Francis …You’ve returned to giving too much time to things you can’t control. Concern yourself with “what is” and how to maneuver it.

Francis, as you know, most of the top established summer leagues don't allow rising freshmen except maybe early season short term contracts.  Most of the next tier of summer leagues aspire to be one of those "top established" leagues.  So in many ways, it seems logical to me (as opposed to "the craziest thing ever") that these next tier leagues would have some guidelines for qualifying/allowing rising freshmen.  I would, in fact, EXPECT the qualification to be that a player is either recruited to a higher level or comes with a referral.  Generally, there is a difference between an experienced returning college player, even from a non-D1, and a rising freshman without a single day of college playing experience.  What you describe doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all.

It seems to me that you are sort of implying that an incoming freshman to a lower level college program should be considered on par with a player who has already successfully navigated at least one year of a program at that level.  There are certainly exceptions but I categorically disagree.

I suspect that most of those players recruited to the best D2's probably won't have difficulty getting that referral or, at least, a referral that would be accepted.  A local scout would most likely be familiar with such a player.

Lastly, summer leagues do pride themselves on number of D1 players.  It adds credibility and marketability.  Sure, there are weak D1 programs and P5 guys add more clout than mid-major, for example, but still, a D1 player is a feather, warranted or not.

Thanks all. This is what I wanted to know:  If it was whacky or not. The majority feels it is not. Based on that, I have changed my opinion. It's not whacky.

The Valley League started last summer allowing 2 graduated high school seniors. The players are required to be verifiable draft prospects, and approved by the league commissioner. We actually only had 3-4 in the league but our team had 2, one pitcher and one position player. Both were good looking players, committed to Major D-1's (SEC and Big 10), with D-1 coaches verifying draftability, both with high national rankings. Both were good kids. The position player looked like a beast and had a ton of power...but he had not faced the consistent level of pitching that he saw and struggled at the plate all summer long.   The pitcher had a live arm, good control, low to mid-90's fastball, and had some good outings but he seemed to have a case of homesickness, had some occasional difficulty with adversity on the mound, and bugged out on us at the end of the season before the playoffs, costing himself a championship ring.  My take: No matter how many showcases and elite tournaments a high schooler may have played in, a good summer league, living away from home for 2 months, with tons of comparable talent around, is different. These were good guys that worked hard, but it was a huge step and they struggled.     As for our team, we won't experiment with this again. Lesson learned.  Until Bryce Harper III comes around. (Harper in the same situation destroyed a summer league and I believe was the league MVP.  Truly "elite talent" might be an exception.)

"bugged out on us at the end of the season before the playoffs, costing himself a championship ring."

a kid bugged out and left you...in the small world of college baseball. I have to feel like not getting the ring wouldn't be a major part of the thought process.

Hokieone;

great report. Best wishes to you and your league in 2022.  My College Summer Team included 4 future MLB players and Managed by 12 year ML player.

Bob

Let me nicely say, and I will include my own sons in this for you.  Most incoming freshman going any level are not ready for that level ball right out of HS.  That is the benefit of fall ball.  So an incoming D1 player is probably not ready to step on a D1 field and compete right away.  So to have them play that summer with players that are currently playing a level below makes sense to me.  In the old days, there was a distinct difference between the levels but I would say that has somewhat gone away in the past couple of years.  Kids that could be playing a certain level if they were patient are no longer waiting.   They are playing down 1, 2, or 3 levels.  I know a kid who was at a P5 last year and is now at an NAIA because he just was not willing to wait his turn.  The NAIA guaranteed him to play 2-ways where the P5 said you are a pitcher who might get to swing a bat.

This does bring up a question son & I have been pondering, and I thank @PitchingFan for spurring it in my mind.

Summer 18U ball here in Georgia has (over the past 2 years) seemed very competitive with the impact C19 had in recruiting. There's also a college summer league here in Georgia, Sunbelt Baseball League, that has a broad range of players (Vandy to...well, not Vandy).

He would definitely get more game time in the 18U league, just because there's not the same high number of players per team. But it isn't the same level of play as collegiate league. So will higher reps at a lower level outweigh the lower reps at a high level as he approaches his freshman year?

@Senna posted:

This does bring up a question son & I have been pondering, and I thank @PitchingFan for spurring it in my mind.

Summer 18U ball here in Georgia has (over the past 2 years) seemed very competitive with the impact C19 had in recruiting. There's also a college summer league here in Georgia, Sunbelt Baseball League, that has a broad range of players (Vandy to...well, not Vandy).

He would definitely get more game time in the 18U league, just because there's not the same high number of players per team. But it isn't the same level of play as collegiate league. So will higher reps at a lower level outweigh the lower reps at a high level as he approaches his freshman year?

Not sure how low "lower reps" would be or how exactly the competition level compares, but I'll say two things...

You want to show up in the fall healthy, fresh and ready to compete.  So you don't need to or want to play a ton - just enough to be sharp in the fall.  If he can get a fair number of AB's against experienced college arms, he is that much further ahead in mental preparedness.

@old_school posted:

"bugged out on us at the end of the season before the playoffs, costing himself a championship ring."

a kid bugged out and left you...in the small world of college baseball. I have to feel like not getting the ring wouldn't be a major part of the thought process.

A friend’s son was in AAA at the time of this story. He was a rah ray kind of guy.   Heading into the last week of the season he got up on the table to give a rah rah speech. He told the team they were capable of winning the last four and making the playoffs. The team was half AAAA players and former successful MLBers hanging on. They were MLB pennant chase insurance.

One player told him if he wanted a ring to go the freak’n jewelry store. He just wanted to go up or go home. The veterans turned and walked a way. The prospects on the way up were shocked at the attitude.

RJM sometimes we cant see the forest thru the trees

Post high school senior year the best thing most kids can do is get some ball in somewhere and work on getting bigger, faster and stronger.

My son played Legion and worked out. He said compared to 17u travel Legion was batting practice. But he had a great time having one last go round with his high school buddies. They (all previously played 17u travel and headed for college ball) all came back to Legion after graduating and focused on working out. They worked out together and pushed each other.

His travel organization had a 22u team for those seniors who wanted to play. A lot of the team were D3 players.

@Francis7 posted:

We have a local college summer league by us. It's not the Cape. It's not Northwoods. It's not Costal Plain.

In fact, if you look at the rosters over the past few seasons, most kids are D3 or Juco. Some D2s. And, some lower level D1s.  But most of the kids are not D1.

They will let recent HS graduates (rising college freshman) play in the league the summer after HS graduation and before the kid heads to college for the first time in the fall.

BUT, they will only accept the rising freshman if he's playing D1 or he's been recommended by a major league scout.

Is that the craziest thing ever? For a summer league where most of the players are not D1...and the majority are D3 and Juco?

Taking it a step further, the kid going to perennial powerhouse D2 Tampa or Colorado Mesa, can't get into the league without a recommendation from a major league scout. But, the kid playing D1 at lowly St. Peter's or FDU after HS can play in the league just because he wants to play.

The league has been in existence since 1966. So, it's not like they are new to this...

This make sense to anyone?

This rule makes 100% sense to me.  I've seen all-state high schoolers going to top 50 D1 programs as "rising freshmen" fail miserably trying to play in these summer college leagues with established college players.   It was especially noticeable when they were hitting (or better phrased...attempting to hit).   

I'm not sure what this league is, but they have this rule for a reason.   My two cents is that it is a very good rule, and there to protect the confidence of these young men from themselves and their parents.

JMO.

18U summer ball is fine for a kid that just wants to play one last summer with his buddies. But a kid that has committed (and signed a NLI) to play college baseball should play in a college summer league after high school graduation if at all possible - for all the reasons mentioned above, especially the mentions by Cabbagedad. Travel ball orgs sometimes put pressure on their HS senior college commits to stay in their org and play 18U and I think that’s a crappy thing to do as it really doesn’t have the kids’ best interest at heart. But then again, you could say that about many aspects of travel ball.

If it's the ACBL, which I think it is. All it would take would be a call from your son's coach to be placed on a team.

My son's college program is very big on having the kids play in the summer. It seems like the entire roster does it every year. Most of them play in the Maryland College Baseball League, Coastal Plains League, Southern Collegiate Baseball League and the Valley League. But, that is just for kids once they are in school.

I agree with @adbono. Kids who signed a NLI to play college baseball should play in a college summer league after high school graduation if at all possible. It's a great way to show up in the fall coming off reps facing competition near the level you will see at school.

A lot of schools have the kids come in for a short summer school session in early July. Mine played some American legion ball prior to that and saw several college kids on each of those teams. The world changes for all you dads who are waiting to experience this adventure for the first time, and to be honest with you, the powers that be don’t give a rats rear end about what you think once that NLI was signed!lol

I will sort of piggy back off what @adbono said based on my 2021's experience.  I encouraged my son to get into any collegiate league he could last summer to help better prepare him for the fall.  He didn't want to.  He wanted his last summer with his friends, days at the lake, etc.  And how can any parent in good conscience argue a kid isn't entitled to that, right?  In some ways as a parent, it seems right to encourage that sort of thing.

But I can tell you that my son was nowhere near as prepared as he could have been.  Every person and player will look you in the eye and tell you they know college ball will be much harder than anything they've seen.  But for almost everyone, it's much tougher than they figured.  You can't truly know until you get there.  That is, unless you listen very closely to those here on HSBBW.  My son was no different and argued that the disadvantages of not playing in a collegiate league league wouldn't hold him back.  Well, it did.  He's going the Juco route so when he showed up on campus, there were guys already there for 1 and 2 years.  And every one of them had just gotten done playing in a summer collegiate league AFTER they played 1-2 years of Juco ball.  There's no way to not sound boastful in saying this, but my son - a MIF/OF - was his Juco's first 2021 class commitment and 2nd 2021 offer behind a pitcher who declined.  Until an 11th hour addition committed, my son was ranked highest - by quite a bit - by PBR out of their 2021 class.  His metrics were also better than anyone else in his class.  So yeah, embarrassingly, we felt pretty good about his chances.  Not arrogant or entitled, but we felt pretty good.  I felt playing collegiate league ball before getting to campus would be ideal, but that not doing so wouldn't handcuff him at all.  So did my son.

Uh, no.  Looking back, it might have been a difference maker for him.  He did alright in the fall, but where he's about to fit in this spring is very much in question.  The 2nd and 3rd year (thank to Covid) guys are that much more experienced, coached and bigger/stronger/faster.  With all those advantages over incoming freshmen, playing collegiate ball was definitely something within our control to increase the odds.

@adbono is spot on.  There was no grace period for my son or any freshmen.  Nobody says "we'll give the freshmen some time to find their bearings and get up to speed." No way.  If think your son will have a few days of leeway, think again.  Here is an example to help put it into perspective. 1-2 months before freshmen had to report to campus, the coach started having them run back home.  They had an app and had to run certain distances in certain periods of time with verifications going to the coach.  Every player who plays there must test out for a 2-mile run when you get to campus.  It needs to done in under 14 minutes.  They had to report to campus on a Sunday and move in.  The next morning at like 6am, the players are lined up for their first shot at passing the 2-mile run.  15 kids DIDN'T pass it that first day, so about 25 did.  My son was one who didn't pass.  Ran something like 14:20.  My son is fast (6.6ish speed) and was in great shape, but he failed.  And the coach was VERY displeased with ALL who failed it day 1.  You might think it's harsh, but it was black eye/stain for 15 kids. On Day 1. Don't think for one second that coach didn't/doesn't hold it against them.  All but 2 or 3 passed on day 2, but not one of them was praised for passing it day 2.  It wasn't at all a good thing to pass it on the 2nd try.  No pats on the back.  It was simply better than those poor guys who failed it on day 2.  While this doesn't have anything to do with collegiate summer leagues, please know the importance of showing up already "there."  Be ready to compete literally on day 1.  If you're not "there" until after the first 7 days or whatever, good luck.  Because almost everybody else was "there" the moment they showed up on campus.  It's a tough pill to swallow, but be great and be great the day before you step on campus.  It feels like losing game 1 and immediately finding yourself having to play through the loser's bracket. And everyone know how hard that is.  But I'll bet few feel it's possible to fall behind on day 1.  Trust me, it's very possible.

@Francis7 posted:

I agree with @adbono. Kids who signed a NLI to play college baseball should play in a college summer league after high school graduation if at all possible. It's a great way to show up in the fall coming off reps facing competition near the level you will see at school.

Maybe as a position player so they can see college level pitching. But as a pitcher, not so clear IMO. My 2022's college coach is approaching everyone on a case by case basis. 6'1" 150lb kid?...maybe a solid strength program over the summer....

I'm guessing my 2022 will pitch a good amount during the HS year. I don't think he'll commit to play in a summer league. But who knows.

@nycdad - I can see the point with pitchers. The last thing an incoming freshman pitcher wants to tell his new college coach in August is "Sorry. I can't throw this fall because I hurt my arm throwing in a summer league."

@nycdad posted:

Maybe as a position player so they can see college level pitching. But as a pitcher, not so clear IMO. My 2022's college coach is approaching everyone on a case by case basis. 6'1" 150lb kid?...maybe a solid strength program over the summer....

I'm guessing my 2022 will pitch a good amount during the HS year. I don't think he'll commit to play in a summer league. But who knows.

Fair point about pitchers. Sometimes they are coming off a heavy workload in the high school spring season and need to rest and recuperate. But in every other circumstance it would help them to face college level hitters the summer before setting foot on campus. I will echo the post from @DanJ that you better be ready to go from day 1.  It’s hard to do that as a pitcher if you haven’t faced live hitting in 2 or 3 months. Get with the right team and limit pitch count along with regular bullpens and a conditioning program.

@nycdad posted:

Maybe as a position player so they can see college level pitching. But as a pitcher, not so clear IMO. My 2022's college coach is approaching everyone on a case by case basis. 6'1" 150lb kid?...maybe a solid strength program over the summer....

I'm guessing my 2022 will pitch a good amount during the HS year. I don't think he'll commit to play in a summer league. But who knows.

100%!  Son was offered college summer spot, but we said no due to the amount of innings thrown for HS team.  Hung out with legion team buddies summer before freshman year, coaching bases or keeping scorebook.

First weekend his freshman season, he was conference rookie of the week and in the starting rotation the next week.

I say chill out and don’t rush things.  If the kid has the work ethic he’ll be fine.

Francis,

can you imagine Bob Gibson telling his College Coach your statement?

Bob

With all due respect to @CTbballDad, I worry about his advice falling into the wrong hands. And there are LOTS of wrong hands out there.  In his case, his son was freshman of the week after one week and a starter right after that. No one will argue that’s realistic for all but a very select few. That’s tremendous and super early success that almost no one sees. The problem is, most players and parents will look at that and think “yeah, my kid is capable of doing the same thing.” No, they’re not.

I’m no expert, but most collegiate summer rosters I’ve looked at are not small. So I’d argue it wouldn’t be difficult (especially for a recent high school grad) to avoid too many innings on their arms. I couldn’t see too many collegiate summer coaches telling an 18 year old recent HS grad that he absolutely must pitch a ton for him this summer. If that’s the case, you’re a freshman of the week type outlier or that coach did a horrific job of putting his summer roster together if he needs a HIGH SCHOOL kid to carry that much water for him on the mound.

While I could be convinced that a freshman with a solid work ethic will be fine, I’d first want to see what people define as “fine.” Because there are LOTS of freshmen with GREAT work ethics that do not end up fine according to their definition.  I look at work ethic as college baseball 101 for anyone who simply wants an opportunity to possibly see the field ever. Great work ethic can be seen across all decent or better programs that never results in playing time let alone starting. If I were coaching and you had subpar work ethic, get packing. Then I’d go ask the remaining players who can show me something much more than just strong work ethic. I’m in management always tell my people that today it’s no longer enough to just work hard and expect to get ahead. The expectation is that everyone works hard. Out of those people, I’ll take the ones that also work just as SMART. Just because you’re sweaty doesn’t mean you’ll ever play.

The parental Echo chamber that this topic has become is amazing, to some degree the whole site can be that way I guess. There are about 1000 variables that go into college experience. The focus on the player work ethic is important but over blown, the massive impact on first impression is valid but also overstated, any coach basing roster decisions on a 2 mile run is a dumbass and you are going to have more concerning problems with him in the future so don't get to excited you can be pretty certain of that.

Get in shape, get strong, get humble...most of them don't understand what even means. It isn't their fault, they are 18 and have been hugely successful for most of the their lives...they will learn soon enough. Come in listening and observing not talking!! 

The key is learning to adapt to new program, new leadership, new expectations sooner rather then later. if they do this they will be fine, if they continue down the i have all the answers plan they are going to get their teeth kicked in. 50 games in which you will probably play 25 in some summer league the season before college is going to do nothing to change the talent that your son has. for some it may accelerate the learning curve but i would expect to most it will be nothing or be negative.

Spend the summer mentally and physically preparing for new life steps, responsibilities and challenges. The rest of it is just noise.

I had read all the advice about what to do the summer before college, my son was going to play in a collegiate league.  The day before he was supposed to leave, he was diagnosed with mono.  No physical activity for 6 weeks, then he just played with a very low-level travel team (mostly kids not playing in college, no challenge there) for a few weeks, and started working out again.  Based on what I had read here, I was very worried that he would be way behind when he got to college.  He was fine.  Old_school is right, there are 1000 things that go into college baseball success, everyone's journey is different, no one choice is going to be the defining factor.  First, enjoy the senior year of HS baseball.

What a player should do the summer after his senior year in HS is dependent on a number of things. A pitcher that throws a lot of innings in the HS spring season won’t have the same needs as a kid that had limited mound time. A position player might need time to heal from an injury. Another might need as many at bats as possible. So there is no “one fits all” answer. But there are a couple of aspects that haven’t been discussed. One is the mental aspect of playing college baseball - and hardly any HS senior really knows what that is all about. Therefore it is helpful to spend time around college players before arriving on campus to observe the difference in attitude and work ethic displayed by college players vs the HS grab ass that they are accustomed to. Another difference maker is the type of college program that a HS player is reporting to. You can afford to be a little more cavalier about your preparation at most D3 programs than you can at most D1 programs. However, if you are advancing to a competitive program, that competes for championships, you best put your best foot forward on day one regardless of what number follows the D.

al

I fully agree. We played Hitters travel team in Summer and got to see how D1 guys deal.

Very different from small time programs.

We were recently discussing how he was dealing with the time constraints of D1 bb and came to a funny realization. His HS schedule was: 6am lifting, eat, classes, then either football/basketball practice, eat, hitting or pitching lessons, study til u drop and next day do it again.

So we were laughing that he actually  got to drop hitting and pitching lessons and football/basketball, and he is not noticing a change. This is just "what he does".

Will have to see how travel now will upset that rhythm but time will tell.

Also 50 games this Spring and 60 this Summer has to wear.

@adbono posted:

What a player should do the summer after his senior year in HS is dependent on a number of things. A pitcher that throws a lot of innings in the HS spring season won’t have the same needs as a kid that had limited mound time. A position player might need time to heal from an injury. Another might need as many at bats as possible. So there is no “one fits all” answer. But there are a couple of aspects that haven’t been discussed. One is the mental aspect of playing college baseball - and hardly any HS senior really knows what that is all about. Therefore it is helpful to spend time around college players before arriving on campus to observe the difference in attitude and work ethic displayed by college players vs the HS grab ass that they are accustomed to. Another difference maker is the type of college program that a HS player is reporting to. You can afford to be a little more cavalier about your preparation at most D3 programs than you can at most D1 programs. However, if you are advancing to a competitive program, that competes for championships, you best put your best foot forward on day one regardless of what number follows the D.

the bolded is spot on, the question is what is the best way and timeline for that to happen.

Some HS grads may be ready for it, however I don't think most June grads are ready to up and move to a host family play ball 6 days a week with travel, learn to be on their own, get / get in better shape while away, prepare for the actual school part of college and be in the best mental position to be successful in late august to start school.

I love college ball players, i have some amazing stories that have been shared with me from my son and couple of roommates after they graduated and the stunts they pulled both good and well not so good. Freshman get indoctrinated into that quickly enough but it isn't full bore from day 1 on campus. Some of the summer league stories I have been told are epic and they aren't pretty. The vast majority of incoming freshman aren't ready for upperclass men who are cutting loose for the summer with very limited mentorship.

The son you you have in May after the freshman year is entirely different then the one who you drop off in August. At least in the school year there are program support systems, coaches, academic advisors and so on. In the summer it is a free for all.

@adbono posted:

18U summer ball is fine for a kid that just wants to play one last summer with his buddies. But a kid that has committed (and signed a NLI) to play college baseball should play in a college summer league after high school graduation if at all possible - for all the reasons mentioned above, especially the mentions by Cabbagedad. Travel ball orgs sometimes put pressure on their HS senior college commits to stay in their org and play 18U and I think that’s a crappy thing to do as it really doesn’t have the kids’ best interest at heart. But then again, you could say that about many aspects of travel ball.

My son was heading to a mid-major as a PO.  He played 18U the summer after his senior year.  He had thrown quite a bit (and played SS) during his HS senior season so we figured that playing 18U and staying in "game shape" was enough.   I'll tell you that his 17U season was 100x better baseball, and more competitive than the 18U summer.  At 17U almost all of the kids were still actively pursueing a college baseball career....and he was on a very good organization, playing in good tourneys.   At 18U there was a mix of kids who, like my son were heading to college in the fall....but there was also quite a few that were just "playing one more year" before they hung up the cleats.  It really didn't hurt my son....he threw enough to be ready to go in the fall...and was a starter his freshman spring.....and he also got one last summer of playing some SS.  As a PO, I think it worked....if he had been going to hit everyday in college, he'd have been better off looking for something more competitive....maybe even a 21U league....just to see some older, more experience pitching

@old_school posted:

any coach basing roster decisions on a 2 mile run is a dumbass and you are going to have more concerning problems with him in the future so don't get to excited you can be pretty certain of that.

I didn't mean to imply that the coach is basing roster decisions on a 2-mile run.  My guess is that the 2-mile distance and 14 minute duration are inconsequential.  I think that run was largely about trust and about seeing who did the bare minimum.  Those are two foundational things that laid the first base layer on which everything else was added and they're not really things you can observe and test during the recruiting process.  The coach wanted to see what his team was made of on day 1.  I personally thinks that's awesome.  And my son actually failed the test.  A HUGE lesson for him.  And a coaching item for me to leverage when he comes to me complaining he isn't getting everything he wanted.  It all matters.  And unless you're mashing in ways no one else is, all this stuff gets factored in to the equation.  You never get a second chance to make a first impression is about as fundamentally true as it gets, right?

For the kids that had sub 14-minute results in the months leading up to reporting to campus, but then took 16, 17+ minutes once on campus, they clearly cheated.  Hoped on a bike or drove slowly in a car.  Lying to your future coach is not something I think can be overblown or overstated.  That has real staying power for most.  For kids like my son who came up just short (20 seconds in my son's case), it tells a coach that he did the bare minimum that was asked of him in the summer.  The coach gave out 1-2 running assignments a week in the summer.  I know that my son did those assignments and nothing else in terms of longer distance running.  Had he done more than just what the coach asked - like maybe run a couple 2-miles on his own every week - his chances of passing the test on day 1 would have improved significantly.  But my son hates that type of running, so he did the bare minimum.  And his 14:20 time then proved that to his new coach on day 1.  To each their own, but if I've got 35+ studs on my roster to choose from and can afford to make trust and extra efforts a factor, I'm doing it every time.

Couple of things:  UT does a 3-300 yard shuttle timed run first day back after Christmas every year.  Son has been worried every year because he is just not fast.  He put a lot of work in every year and this year was most confident.  You do not practice until you pass it.  His freshman year his roommate never passed it and finally quit.  But he also did nothing to get better at it.  Didn't work out, change eating habits, run more.  Just came in every day and tried to run it before practice.  Usually failed the first one and went home.  After about a week of it, the seniors took his stuff out of his locker and moved it to the old lockerroom, storage room.  Told him when he cared enough to get it done he could have his locker back.

The best advice I would give is that if the coaches want you to come in during the summer semester to get acclimated then do it.  The three years that son has been at UT and I have been following it closely at his and other P5 schools where he has buddies.  No player except one has played his freshman year with any consistency, most got let go after first year, that did not come in during summer.  It is a great time to learn how it is done from classes, study hall, weight room, workouts, practice schedule, terminology and build relationships.  Most do not take time to teach all of that after school starts and most P5 schools, the upper classmen will send you home if you mess up their workouts, weights, or practices.  I think it is seen as a disrespect to the program not to invest before school starts.

DanJ, I appreciate all your posts, because you are living this, and reporting in real time. Very valuable to others in the same position, and shows the degree of second-guessing by parents of college-aged players.  The site depends on anecdotes.  However, yours are incomplete, because you don't actually know how it's going to turn out. Maybe that 2-mile run will be the dividing line in how players are treated when the season gets going, and maybe it won't.  So it will be useful if you can update this thread in June, when you know how it turns out.

@anotherparent posted:

DanJ, I appreciate all your posts, because you are living this, and reporting in real time. Very valuable to others in the same position, and shows the degree of second-guessing by parents of college-aged players.  The site depends on anecdotes.  However, yours are incomplete, because you don't actually know how it's going to turn out. Maybe that 2-mile run will be the dividing line in how players are treated when the season gets going, and maybe it won't.  So it will be useful if you can update this thread in June, when you know how it turns out.

The dividing line will be performance and contribution. Period. Coaches get paid to win. Hit the ball or throw un-hittable strikes. Keep it simple.

@PitchingFan posted:

Couple of things:  UT does a 3-300 yard shuttle timed run first day back after Christmas every year.  Son has been worried every year because he is just not fast.  He put a lot of work in every year and this year was most confident.  You do not practice until you pass it.  His freshman year his roommate never passed it and finally quit.  But he also did nothing to get better at it.  Didn't work out, change eating habits, run more.  Just came in every day and tried to run it before practice.  Usually failed the first one and went home.  After about a week of it, the seniors took his stuff out of his locker and moved it to the old lockerroom, storage room.  Told him when he cared enough to get it done he could have his locker back.

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

@PABaseball posted:

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

This post is so incredibly on target! I hope that everyone reads it. So much of what coaches do (at the most competitive D1 programs) is not about baseball at all.  It’s about mind control and mf’ing their own players. It doesn’t go on everywhere but the more competitive the program the more likely that it’s going on. This was a serious problem at my alma mater and many spoke out about it, including me. It resulted in a coaching change but jury is out about whether things have improved in that regard or not. Kids don’t need to be belittled in order to compete and coaches that take that approach are lazy and insecure IMO. I played in a nationally ranked D1 program and our coach was a gentleman. He treated every player with respect - whether it was an All-American or whether it was me. Kids play their best when they are treated well and if they aren’t treated well they will never reach their potential. It boggles my mind that so many coaches don’t seem to understand this.

@PABaseball posted:

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

I agree with this. There definitely needs to be minimum standards for fitness. However, some guys are more suited for speed and sprinting and others have better endurance.  No point forcing a square peg in a round hole. The greatest coaches know how to capitalize on and enhance what they have.

@PABaseball posted:

Seems unnecessary. And I get it, I really do - the whole it's not about the running, it's about the preparation.

But not letting someone practice because they can't run ____ in _______ seconds or minutes is silly considering it's a game where you run max 360 feet at any given time. I'm as anti-coddling as they come but how about they put more time into his bullpens or his BP rounds and stop worrying about the running?

Makes absolutely no sense to me how coaches will only watch their top 20-25 guys practice but watch 26-40 on the roster like hawks when it comes time to condition.

Maybe that's why UT is competing for a CWS and we're on at large watch every year. Not sure, but from a lot of what I've heard from friends and guys in other programs it seems like there is a lot of time wasted on useless activities and a lot of ignoring guys who could become contributors if they got a little more attention

do pitchers ever need to run more then 80'? I mean from the rubber to backing up home or 3rd is the farthest they ever move and i get it as well what it is about, I actually think the concept is very good just the tool and methodology to implement it is silly and nonproductive. Think how many great baseball players couldn't play on that squad....Prince fielder and Colon immediately jump to mind. Granted you can't have 35 of them but zero is stupid.

Man, I feel like I did a really poor job of articulating my point, my son's situation and my son's coach.  The 2-mile run thing is done now.  It was really just a week 1 deal - day 1 for 2/3 of the team, 2 days for all but 2 kids and 5 days for those last 2.  And no kid who failed was prevented from practicing and taking part in all activities. The "punishment" was having to keep running it every day until you passed.  Personally, I think it was mostly about trust, ensuring none of his recruits got lazy over the summer and to set a serious tone from day 1 that playing there would not be easy.  Again, I dig the concept even though my son failed the first day.  I promise he won't fail when he reports this coming fall and I think that's an important lesson and a big win for my son.

While I have never spoken personally with the coach about the 2-mile deal, I did meet for hours with him on our visit and have had multiple conversations with him since then.  I have a solid feel for who he is and the way he runs his program.  For starters, speed and versatility are hallmark pieces of his program.  He doesn't recruit 1B or PO's.  He told me "why would I recruit guys who can only do one thing?"  He is not a fan of high school POs at all as he prefers guys who are mentally used to competing every day, so his pitching staff is almost exclusively made up of 2-way guys.  They only become POs once they get to college and only after he's evaluated them more and bounced that up against the needs of the team.  You may not care for his particular approach, but considering he routinely sends 2/3 of his roster on to D1s, regularly has top 20 team GPAs in the NJCAA, has won 30+ games each season for 10  years straight, is the winningest coach in the history of the program and has very low negative attrition, there's an argument to made that his methods are quite effective and attractive.  I want a tough road for my kid so long as it's fair.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

"He doesn't recruit...PO's".. , regarding competition.  A PO who competes every single pitch vs. a position player who competes 20-30 plays/at bats a week.  I'd say it's at least equal on that level.  Sounds more like a philosophy he just made up in his head rather than one that has any sound reasoning.  IF he just said he needs to make sure he has flexibility on the roster, I'd take that...but I'd take the mental toughness and compete level of a pitcher over a position player any day of the weeks.   Besides, compete level is really an individual thing, not a position thing.

Despite being a former PO, there is no bias in that opinion whatsoever

I will clarify and defend the many coaches that are being attacked here.  Any coach who does not have a minimum qualification of fitness is probably not successful at any level.  Not saying there aren't the flukes but come on.  I'm 56 years old and way overweight.  I decided to try it.  I was within 7 seconds of passing it the first time.  I don't think I would have gotten #2 or #3 of the fitness test without a little more rest in between but I'm 56 and overweight.  In the three years son has been there only 1 guy has not gotten it and as I stated he did not do anything to get better.  If you want to attack this mindset, do you think the guy who won't lose some weight and do extra workouts and run to get his qualifier in will help you on the mound at any point.  He is not a competitor.  Each year the number who do not make it on the first try has gone down.  This year it was only 1 pitcher who was a late transfer and was not there in the fall.  You do it in January because guys should have had all fall to prepare.  UT is one of the fittest teams because of the preparation, that is probably why the Cubs stole our baseball strength and conditioning coach.

I don't buy the mindgames stuff but I reckon it is to some extent.  If you won't prepare to do something that you know is coming for 4 months you won't prepare to compete.  The only run 80 feet thing is not realistic because to pitch you have to use your legs for 7-9 innings.  If you want to be the best you have to push your players to be the best.

Normally those guys who say spend more time on the bottom guys are connected to the bottom guys.  I know for a fact that almost all top D1 coaches would not turn down a guy who wanted extra help in bullpens or bp sessions.  The guys who won't compete off the field don't really want to compete on the field.  It is not that they have not been given a chance, they have not take the chances they were given.  When son was trying to be a 2-way guy he was at the field every night for normally 3 hours, many times by himself, getting his reps in to compete.  Now he uses the same time trying to be the best reliever he can be.  He wants to be the first LHP out of the bullpen each game and that desire takes drive.  He was at the field every day this week for 8 hours.

Pitching fan:

very true. During the Area Code games I would "wander" into the dugout and then the bullpen and listen to the players talk about themselves, complain and make excuses.

A few would analyze the situation on the field and prepare for their next AB or Mound appearance.

All products of their previous 2 years of life and baseball.

Their baseball future "very predictable"!! College Coaches and Pro Scouts study "body language"! We call it "non verbal" communication.

"Test running", a form of "non-verbal communication" has been a Coach's communication to his team for 50 years.

Bob

@HSDad22 posted:

"He doesn't recruit...PO's".. , regarding competition.  A PO who competes every single pitch vs. a position player who competes 20-30 plays/at bats a week.  I'd say it's at least equal on that level.  Sounds more like a philosophy he just made up in his head rather than one that has any sound reasoning.  IF he just said he needs to make sure he has flexibility on the roster, I'd take that...but I'd take the mental toughness and compete level of a pitcher over a position player any day of the weeks.   Besides, compete level is really an individual thing, not a position thing.

Despite being a former PO, there is no bias in that opinion whatsoever

And when you get your own team to skipper, you're free to stock it with as many HS POs as you'd like.  If it's as simple as "something he made up in his head" then man, did he ever get lucky.  Like REALLY lucky!  THIS lucky:

Routinely sends 2/3 of his roster on to D1s, regularly has top 20 team GPAs in the NJCAA, has won 30+ games each season for 10  years straight, is the winningest coach in the history of the program and has very low negative attrition.

Try and find more than 20 Jucos in the country that are just as "lucky."  Feel free to dislike his approach, but if you're going to argue it's not a good one, you're going to have to work a little harder than that considering the results.  Again, he does have POs on his roster.  It's guys who have been POs PRIOR to college that he isn't a fan of.  My kid is short and Altuve is amazing, but you won't find me questioning the reasoning of coach's who prefer bigger kids to smaller ones.

Just FYI, the 2 High School kids that we took on our Valley League team were placed by their College coaches.    ANY high school player that is heading for college baseball should talk with one of their soon-to-be college coaches about what to do for the pre-college summer.  Another point sorta related: One major D-1college coach that we spoke with said their policy is to give their freshmen the fall and spring to show what they can do. If they don't look like they can add to the program (i.e., help the coaches win games) after that, they will be told in their exit interview that they should look for another school. Seems very harsh, downright cold, and I am sure they aren't all this way, but rule #1 is that college coaches want to win games.

HokieONE

Did you attend the recent College Baseball Coaches Convention? Did the Summer Leagues have a meeting? Any new changes? What are your opinions of the new transfer rules?

Bob