College Summer Leagues-The Times They Are a Changing

Appreciate the post.  The other item not mentioned is the amount of players who are choosing to train instead of playing in the Summer.  The quality in pitching seems to be way down across the leagues, even the Cape. 

Just to get his straight kids are taught to be eyes wide open, colleges recruit them at 14 and then cut them loose before they get to campus or cut them loose after a bad fall or ball season, coaches and the many experts on here tell everyone of us every day you better to be ready to play, nobody cares if you can't play, they will cut you loose in second if they deem someone is better or one of my favorites being that colleges don't have time to develop skills figure it out for yourself...but now the kids are supposed to bleed the colors of a summer team for 42 games because it is special? Good luck with that.

Baseball has been feasting on its own for years and the laws of supply and demand have made it ok, maybe just possibly the summer teams are on the front end of that changing and the kids are realizing that the organization can **** off as well as the player can be sent walking.

Baseball has brought this on themselves by treating players like crap for many years, suck it up summer ball I don't see it changing.

Hokieone,

One very bad, selfish and unappreciative person shouldn’t spoil an entire business.   The guys sounds like a self involved tool but that is not the big picture problem here. 

So, what is going on around the baseball ecosystem?   We could probably come up with at least 10 significant trends in college baseball that is effecting summer college baseball.   The college game is popular but other sports are growing quickly and are more popular.   Let’s face it, baseball is looked at as an old person sport.

Let’s start with the college draft.  Far fewer players drafted that may cause some changes in attitude.   The NCAA changed their stance on NIL and athlete marketing.   College athletes are competing for additional revenues.   The NCAA has introduced a transfer portal.   The Power 5 conferences are consolidating...fewer dollars available for those outside of the SEC, Big10 and ACC.    Even MiLB is consolidating.    All of these factors are economic at their core.   People are coin operated and behavior has been modified to chase fewer dollars.   It is not that shocking to me to see people get a case of the “me firsts” because that is what they’ve been economically conditioned to think.

JMO. 

I get it that this generation of players has a me over team attitude. And it frustrates a lot of us. IMO it’s a product of over-hype on social media. By scouting services, parents, keyboard warriors, and pretenders that build their brand off of unsuspecting kids. And I hate every bit of it.
  But I want to offer up a story that gives us hope. Earlier this year I was asked by a family friend to help a neighborhood HS senior (Ryan) get recruited. Ryan had just lost his father 90 days before I met him. His dad passed in the fall on senior night as Ryan played his last HS football game. I asked around about Ryan’s character and got nothing but glowing responses. I watched him play and recognized him as having more than enough talent to play college baseball. He had gone under-recruited b/c of bad advice and b/c he played for a bad travel org. After sizing up the situation I decided to help. I met with Ryan this morning, just before he left town to report to his JuCo campus. We talked about what he should expect when he gets there. As we parted company he handed me an envelope. This is what was inside:

@fenwaysouth posted:

  The college game is popular but other sports are growing quickly and are more popular.   Let’s face it, baseball is looked at as an old person sport.

Like pickleball! Also an old person's sport however.

@IAmThatGuy posted:

Like pickleball! Also an old person's sport however.

A swing and a miss.   I was thinking more of lacrosse.  But I love me some pickleball too!

Hokie and Adbono;

The Summer teams should develop a "List of Questions" for each player. Why, What, When, Where and How.

It would appear that the "selfish" players are NOT knowledgeable of the communication between the Pro Scouts, College Coaches and your teams. The player's baseball career maybe "harm" by his "behavior". The pro scout is an expert in gathering information [positive and negative].

Hokie, keep up your "good work". Continue to "fine tune" your organization.

Bob

@adbono posted:

I get it that this generation of players has a me over team attitude. And it frustrates a lot of us. IMO it’s a product of over-hype on social media. By scouting services, parents, keyboard warriors, and pretenders that build their brand off of unsuspecting kids. And I hate every bit of it.
  But I want to offer up a story that gives us hope. Earlier this year I was asked by a family friend to help a neighborhood HS senior (Ryan) get recruited. Ryan had just lost his father 90 days before I met him. His dad passed in the fall on senior night as Ryan played his last HS football game. I asked around about Ryan’s character and got nothing but glowing responses. I watched him play and recognized him as having more than enough talent to play college baseball. He had gone under-recruited b/c of bad advice and b/c he played for a bad travel org. After sizing up the situation I decided to help. I met with Ryan this morning, just before he left town to report to his JuCo campus. We talked about what he should expect when he gets there. As we parted company he handed me an envelope. This is what was inside:

Thanks for posting this, the thread  desperately needed balance.

@2022NYC posted:

Thanks for posting this, the thread  desperately needed balance.

Yeah, when is the last time you saw something like that from a HS kid?

My son did not like his first year of summer ball. Was in a basement with 5 other players, and had a coach that was basically trying to do what the OP described, get a name for himself to get a better college coaching job. As a pitcher, it didn't make a lot of sense for him to be there. But he did seem to enjoy participating in the community volunteer activities, and the camaraderie. But he really wanted to be home training. As a pitcher, I had to agree with him.

If we go back to the 40 vs. 4 year plan, summer ball doesn't help the 40 year plan at least for the majority of pitchers IMO.

Flip side of this. I mentioned in another thread that a kid on my son (2022) incoming class de-committed and signed a pro contract. He was able to do that because he played summer ball and was seen by scouts.

I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that college kids can't stand their summer leagues. It's not a knock on the guys who run them either, but it's hard to convince a kid to care about a bunch of strangers who also don't want to be there. Broke college kids, let me add that in. You take a bunch of college kids with no money, have them live with strangers and have them compete in a league where maybe 4 kids get drafted in any given year and they're supposed to care/get excited to go the park everyday?

It gets old after a while. At school they're working and struggling next to the same people everyday working towards a common goal. With summer ball they're having their summer, their only time off, taken from them - playing in wildly different atmosphere with stakes not nearly as great as what they're accustomed to. It's hard to get up for those games. The only silver lining is they may get drafted but there are only a handful of leagues that produce multiple draft picks every season.

Don't forget, they're also living in a world where social media exists. They can see what their friends are up to 24/7. You think they want to be sitting on a 6 hour bus ride when a few girls from  campus are having a party at the lake house? Ask a player if he'd rather win a summer league championship or spend his entire summer at the lake, making money, doing whatever and see what they say.

I have two in leagues. One in a decent league, the other in a local league. From going to games, talking to players, and sitting behind the dugout and getting the mic'd up version. 95% of those kids do not want to be there, and sometimes the coaching staff. There are college baseball social media pages where you see the summer ball experience from the players side. There is a theme.

Regardless, that is no excuse for any of them to be rude or ungrateful. That is pretty unfortunate.

Fortunately there are a surplus of talented players for the vacant roster position. My 1st question to a player, Why? Second question What can I learn about baseball, about life.

Bob

As a parent I kinda wish there was no summer ball.  As a rising senior, son should be in an internship, preparing for his next stage.  Instead he pitched his 10 inning limit (communicated with coach prior to the season), training and working a PT summer job…setting him back for his next 40 years, IMO

He’s enjoyed his summer teams, and it’s cool when he competes against his summer teammates in the spring.  A few smiles on the bump then a hug at the completion of the series.

I think the seasons are too long, it’s a bit much that some are still playing, and the vast majority don’t need to be prepared for the MiLB grind.  55 spring games starting in February,  40+ in summer, then fall competition into Oct/Nov.  Way too much, especially for pitchers.

@adbono posted:

Yeah, when is the last time you saw something like that from a HS kid?

I hope a lot more than we realize.  There are a lot of very humble, well mannered kids out there, they just get pushed aside by the ones that aren't.  I know my son isn't in high school anymore, but as a 20-year old he took it upon himself to go buy a thank-you card for his host family and write them a personal note thanking them for their hospitality.  The next morning I found a brand new pen wrapper with a pen missing.  I asked him where it came from and he said he had to buy a pen to write the thank-you note.    

Mom01;

your communication triggered a memory of my first host family in South Dakota. They told me the story of their son and Pearl Harbor in 1941.
Later I visited his grave and we visited again in LA with many memories.

Summer Baseball has the opportunity many experiences.
Bob

From what I've seen watching two years of summer games, I think that many players are enjoying it, at least if they're playing well.  I have been surprised by how many players have left before the end of the season, and by the fact that the teams (in good D1 and D1/juco leagues) have been scrabbling for rising college freshmen by the end of the season.

My son has loved his summer league experiences - his ideal life, having nothing to do but learn about and play baseball every day.  However, he did leave early this summer, because he had more innings than expected in the college season, and his arm was done.  I would hope that summer league teams don't blame the players for "me" attitudes when injuries or physical overuse happens.  I would also think that they should expect it and manage for it.

I agree with old_school that maybe the "me" attitude is not all that surprising in some cases - I doubt players in the portal are having particularly good feelings about team loyalty.

@PABaseball posted:

I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that college kids can't stand their summer leagues. It's not a knock on the guys who run them either, but it's hard to convince a kid to care about a bunch of strangers who also don't want to be there. Broke college kids, let me add that in. You take a bunch of college kids with no money, have them live with strangers and have them compete in a league where maybe 4 kids get drafted in any given year and they're supposed to care/get excited to go the park everyday?

It gets old after a while. At school they're working and struggling next to the same people everyday working towards a common goal. With summer ball they're having their summer, their only time off, taken from them - playing in wildly different atmosphere with stakes not nearly as great as what they're accustomed to. It's hard to get up for those games. The only silver lining is they may get drafted but there are only a handful of leagues that produce multiple draft picks every season.

Don't forget, they're also living in a world where social media exists. They can see what their friends are up to 24/7. You think they want to be sitting on a 6 hour bus ride when a few girls from  campus are having a party at the lake house? Ask a player if he'd rather win a summer league championship or spend his entire summer at the lake, making money, doing whatever and see what they say.

I have two in leagues. One in a decent league, the other in a local league. From going to games, talking to players, and sitting behind the dugout and getting the mic'd up version. 95% of those kids do not want to be there, and sometimes the coaching staff. There are college baseball social media pages where you see the summer ball experience from the players side. There is a theme.

Regardless, that is no excuse for any of them to be rude or ungrateful. That is pretty unfortunate.

I have NO experience here. But, I have heard from kids who have heard from others playing in the summer leagues that they hate it. Living with host families is either uncomfortable or down right a nightmare. Pitchers arms are tired. Catchers legs are tired. The schedule is a grind. It's hot. The fields and facilities are lacking. Again, this is all second hand via not trustworthy sources. But I have heard it more than once and repeatedly through the years.

@Consultant posted:

Fortunately there are a surplus of talented players for the vacant roster position. My 1st question to a player, Why? Second question What can I learn about baseball, about life.

Bob

Right now there may be a surplus, at least there was one not long ago. Based on Hokies comments from his long experience and relationship to other leagues the surplus is going down a quickly assuming it is still there.

"2 Teams couldn't complete the playoffs from running out players, pitchers or both"

This doesn't indicate surplus of anything to me.

As far as the Why question a few of you have asked...I think the truth is because there are not choices. How many programs line it up, make it mandatory and the kid has virtually no ability to say no. Give the wrong response and your college career is over, show up and go thru the motions you still have life.

Chasing summer ball for the pipe dream of being couple year MiLB player and the appeasement of a coach is short term thinking and negative EV...IMO and it seems that kids are figuring it out before the coaches, parents and management.

The times are changing and baseball better figure it out or they are going to have bigger problems.

Dear Middling Summer League  Team,

I'm really sorry that I didn't get to play for you this summer because you preferred to sign another end-of-the bench player from a bottom feeding Mid Major D1 team. Too bad, as I would have played my heart out for you. As my college coach assured you, I would have been a great player, teammate and leader, and I would have done everything I could do to show my host family now much I appreciated their generous hospitality. I hope that next summer you'll give a chance to one of my college teammates. I won't be available as I'll be starting my career at a great Fortune 500 Company.

Sincerely,

A D3 Baseball Player

I think for a lot of kids, summer ball is hard and even a little isolating.  I had no idea how bad my son's experience was until the host family organizer came to talk to me at his last game.  He had been placed 30 minutes from town on a farm.  The host family did not cook for him, or even pay much attention to him. They went out of town most weekends.  I saw on his debit card that he literally ate at Kwik shop almost every day.  Apparently, they were no longer going to allow the family to host and the organizer apologized profusely.  I guess his roommate, that left after a few weeks had shared his experience with the organizer.  They had to be at the field at 2 or earlier for away games and when they finished at 10 or 2, if they were on a bus, everything was closed.  He never told me once that it was bad (because he said I would try to fix it).  At the end of a long season, he asked if he could drive his car home (24 hour drive) and fly back for his last start.  They told him no.  That gave him 3 days at home before reporting to school.  He's literally been that kind of kid for the past two years...do everything they ask, don't complain even if it's not helping you.  At this point, sadly, I don't think he has had coaches that actually care much.  I told him that at this point, play for himself, make decisions for himself, be selfish.  Someone has to look out for the kids sometimes and unfortunately, it may have to be them.  I wouldn't be so quick to judge them as selfish, they may just have eyes open now.  That said, I agree, you never need to be rude or appear unappreciative to people that are being gracious.

My son has been fortunate to have very good host families, although certainly he has had to adapt to different ways of living, which was a great experience.  And he has played in the north, so the weather has been beautiful - I can't imagine doing summer ball in the south.  The atmosphere at the ballparks was great.  He didn't get paid, but we didn't have to pay (much) for him, either.

But let me get this straight:

- according to every thread ever on this site, college baseball is a grind, and you'd better really love the game if you want to do it.

- according to PABaseball and Francis7, players hate playing the game they supposedly love in summer leagues - "they're having their summer, their only time off, taken from them" - they would rather be at the lake with friends, or working in offices

- according to old_school, D1 players are jerked around in college, don't get playing time, know they are likely to be cut, are told they have to play in the summer if they want a hope of PT, then still don't get it in the college season no matter how well they do in summer ball

- but that's maybe because the pitching in summer leagues is not great, because the good college pitchers are pitched out during their seasons and don't go. So if D1 bench players hit well against bad summer pitching, it doesn't matter, and if they do badly it's even worse.

- no-one has the hope of getting drafted any more

- it's not enough just to enjoy playing the sport you love all summer and entertaining fans who come to ballparks by the hundreds or even thousands to have a nice summer evening of baseball, beer, and family fun

- because according to Fenway, no-one likes baseball any more anyway

So, what are we all doing on HSBBW, then?

@anotherparent posted:

- because according to Fenway, no-one likes baseball any more anyway

@anotherparent - That's a lot of literary license you took there.  Not even close to what I said or meant.  I was pointing out macro trends in MLB/MiLB/NCAA baseball that have a definite impact on college summer baseball.  Also, the economy isn't doing so great right now and if Mom and Dad are funding the summer college baseball experience then possibly they are thinking twice.

All - Full disclosure:  My oldest son did not play college summer baseball at all.  He had opted out all 3 years.  He worked to pay for his portion of a private college, and he felt he needed a rest after being a starting pitcher in the regular season.  All 3 of my sons had some financial responsibility in their college selection.

His first college summer job was working for a civil engineering firm at a waste water treatment facility.   If you need a further description of what it is like to work at a waste water facility in the hot Virginia summer, please PM me.   His second and last summer internship was working as a GE engineering intern.  GE hired him prior to  college graduation.  Again, he didn't feel the need to pitch in the summers.  His college coaches pre-approved this as this was a question (summer ball vs internship) my son asked when he was being recruited. There were no surprises.

My point is summer college baseball is not for everyone, and there are reasons (financial or otherwise) to not play.  If your son has aspirations to play baseball professionally then playing in a college summer league is essential.  However,  my son had no aspirations of becoming a professional baseball player so it made sense to him to do an engineering internship.  I'm wondering if more college players are opting out of college summer baseball to get work experience plus the economy is a little jittery right now....a dollar is not going nearly as far as it used to.  Just a thought.....     

Just my opinion and experiences.....

Ha…quite the recap  @anotherparent.  Here’s our story and where I stand.

Son had discussions with a few MLB teams prior to this year’s draft, as a potential late pick.  With a low/No SB, we made it clear he’d return to school and graduate.

I do believe son has ability to linger in the minors for a few years, but most likely his ceiling.  Pitchers in MLB either throw 100 or have devastating breaking stuff.  Rare air stuff.

Son recently brought up grad school option for his Covid year.  It broke my heart, but my response was it’s time to start thinking about life after baseball.  If grad school was to just play another year, I wouldn’t recommend taking on debt just to play another year.  Plus, we’ve had to support him financially, on top of a very expensive school, bc he has little time to earn much money on his own. Either get drafted next year or give Indy ball a shot, then move on.

To answer your question, I think as the years go by, you need to start thinking about the next 40 and life after baseball. The closer you get to the business side of the game, the more it separates the talent pools.

I respect @hokieone for what he does, but summer ball is probably somewhere in between creating opportunities for kids and a business.  Hopefully, this thread shows not all players have a “Me First” attitude, rather life is pulling players and families in multiple directions and difficult decisions need to eventually be made.

I do think it is good preparation if you want to play pro.  My son told me that he didn't tell me how bad it was because he was going to "embrace the suck".  That said, as a covid era parent, sometimes you just want them to catch a break.  The games were great in Northwoods.  Great stadium, fans, etc., and they streamed all games which I very much appreciated.  We were looking forward to the cape this year, but alas, surgery.  My only point was that if a kid was just there for numbers, he probably did need to be focused on that, and not "team" (with guys he didn't know) to get noticed and picked up from the bloated portal.

@adbono posted:

Yeah, when is the last time you saw something like that from a HS kid?

@adbono  IMHO, I think many HS student athletes would do the same.  the problem is the current system has fostered a different response.

I'm thinking this young man perspective has significantly changed upon losing his father and by you providing a open hand, you've provided a life boat for opportunities.

Good stuff.

@anotherparent posted:

My son has been fortunate to have very good host families, although certainly he has had to adapt to different ways of living, which was a great experience.  And he has played in the north, so the weather has been beautiful - I can't imagine doing summer ball in the south.  The atmosphere at the ballparks was great.  He didn't get paid, but we didn't have to pay (much) for him, either.

But let me get this straight:

- according to every thread ever on this site, college baseball is a grind, and you'd better really love the game if you want to do it.

- according to PABaseball and Francis7, players hate playing the game they supposedly love in summer leagues - "they're having their summer, their only time off, taken from them" - they would rather be at the lake with friends, or working in offices

- according to old_school, D1 players are jerked around in college, don't get playing time, know they are likely to be cut, are told they have to play in the summer if they want a hope of PT, then still don't get it in the college season no matter how well they do in summer ball

- but that's maybe because the pitching in summer leagues is not great, because the good college pitchers are pitched out during their seasons and don't go. So if D1 bench players hit well against bad summer pitching, it doesn't matter, and if they do badly it's even worse.

- no-one has the hope of getting drafted any more

- it's not enough just to enjoy playing the sport you love all summer and entertaining fans who come to ballparks by the hundreds or even thousands to have a nice summer evening of baseball, beer, and family fun

- because according to Fenway, no-one likes baseball any more anyway

So, what are we all doing on HSBBW, then?

@anotherparent great summary.  I might try to create a infograph.

And you are absolutely correct, IMHO HSBBW is here to help inspiring baseball players of all level to navigate the journey.

I've learned significant amount of insight from this community and still remain humbled by the knowledge base.

Here is your laugh for the day.

When I joined, it reminded me of Seinfeld "Soup N...", I put my head down, commented when possible adding some context,  listened and shared.

My son enjoyed his summer ball experience. He knew he was getting into six days a week play and bus rides. He knew it could be a grind. It was. But he loved the experience. The simulation of low minors play made him decide if his upside was future Single A roster filler he wanted no part of it. His host families were big baseball fans. They embraced him. He’s still in touch with them. He heard of other not so pleasant experiences.

One summer he chose to play in a lesser league so he could do a summer internship and play baseball. His college coach’s response? “You don’t really give a damn about baseball, do you?” My son was developing his “next forty years” plan. A late season injury and surgery eliminated the conflict. The internship became his professional job his first five years out of college.

My daughter’s summer college softball experience was easier. She took off for the weekend and played in 22u tournaments. Hotels and food were provided. She came home late Sunday night or Monday morning. No practices.

When I played (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth) the games were Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday doubleheaders. There were beautiful summer Sundays I would wake up wishing I could go to the beach instead of playing two. When I got to the park I got over it. I was ready to go. Our furthest games were two hours away. No overnights.

I was “hosted” along with a teammate at my family’s summer place on the lake about a half hour from the home field. My parents were getting divorced. My mother never showed up. My father dropped by to socialize with neighbors and check the food supply. But he never stayed overnight. We had to make our own meals. There were lots of pregame fast food stops.

When I was a college kid there weren’t a lot of sanctioned  college summer programs like now. I played in a mostly D1 and released former pros semi pro league. It was disappointing to see the league sink to local D3’s then ultimately disband as better college summer ball options popped up.

One weekend in my late thirties I was with my wife and kids in the town where I played. We went by the park. There was a playground nearby for the kids. In the park was a MABL game. I saw a couple of local guys I played college summer ball with and against playing. They were a shell of their former selves as players. I told my wife not to every let me do that.

@anotherparent  nice post!  I was also kind of surprised by some of the negative comments.

If a player does not want to go play summer ball, there is no rule that says he has to. If he wants to go home, work, work out, be with his GF, that's ok. Tell the coach.

However, if the player needs at bats or innings, he really should play. If he isn't playing he should contact his coach who sent him. Also know that most college coaches speak to their players often during the summer. If your son has no contact with their coaches, that tells you something right there. Enough said.

Remember, as mentioned, there are plenty of local leagues your sons can play in and sleep in their own bed. And yes it's hot! Very.

Son didn't go to the Cape his first year, he was beat, his freshman year he logged about 80 innings. He spent his summer up at the lake with other players and made some money helping in camp, he needed a break from baseball, which many do. I completely agree with that.

Second summer he went to the Cape and played at Falmouth. Loved everything about it, loved his host family (still keeps in touch on FB). Host dad took them fishing on days off. As a starter at college, he was a reliever. Kept his innings down.

For all of those complaining, son was required to work 5 mornings a week for a few hours (no sleeping in) up at the field for camps. The money he earned was for weekly payment of $50 for his host family. He lived in a beautiful home and food was always in the fridge for him and his 2 teammates. We came to visit and host family took us out for lobster. The summer cost nothing for us but gas in his truck. He played in the all star game and went to Fenway paid by the league.  When host family was drafted they sent him a tie with STL logo. He did well in summer ball and I believe that helped in the draft.  Clemson played in Omaha, so when they were done they had to come home have exit interviews unpack and pack again and head to the Cape.

I have a friend whose son just went to his first summer program. He said it was crazy 2500-3000k. Savannah Banana type of antics and contests, prizes. He loved it but did have to leave early.

As a pitcher most do not practice in Junior fall ball but have instruction. Coaches realize players need time off and rest.

hokieone has been a long standing member of our community and GM of Strasburg Express. Again, surprised at some of the remarks. FWIW, he gave son his first coaching job out of college as pcoach and they were champions that summer. His host family treated him like a son.

As I posted in another topic, kids are different these days. Many are self centered and it's all about them. I kind of wonder if that's why that player that hokieone mentioned was in the portal!

My kid's team had a broad age range that included a 26 year old. He would overhear dug out conversations that included going to weddings and bar events. He was asked to meet up with the team at a bar,  but he reminded them he is only 17.

@anotherparent posted:

- according to every thread ever on this site, college baseball is a grind, and you'd better really love the game if you want to do it.

- according to PABaseball and Francis7, players hate playing the game they supposedly love in summer leagues - "they're having their summer, their only time off, taken from them" - they would rather be at the lake with friends, or working in offices

If that is how you interpreted what was said then so be it but you have the ten year vet/owner of a collegiate league team (in a good collegiate league I may add) telling you that morale is down and they are canceling games because not enough guys want to be there.

The words are right there.

I like baseball, I can still point out its flaws. And if my kid told me the options were

A. To be broke and take 6 hour bus rides to play mostly meaningless baseball with a dugout full of kids who also don't want to be there in a league where very few are drafted.

B. Get a job/internship for future career, make some money, train on own time with pitching guys, and do whatever he wanted on the weekends

I'd let him make that decision for himself and I have a pretty good idea of what he would pick.

Then why did he pick A?  His college coach required it?

What do college coaches think?  Do they expect their players to like it?  improve because of it?  or just to shut up and do it?

@Francis7 posted:

I have NO experience here. But, I have heard from kids who have heard from others playing in the summer leagues that they hate it. Living with host families is either uncomfortable or down right a nightmare. Pitchers arms are tired. Catchers legs are tired. The schedule is a grind. It's hot. The fields and facilities are lacking. Again, this is all second hand via not trustworthy sources. But I have heard it more than once and repeatedly through the years.

Minor inconveniences for those that love the game. (Exception would be proper arm care including inning limits).

@anotherparent posted:

Then why did he pick A?  His college coach required it?

What do college coaches think?  Do they expect their players to like it?  improve because of it?  or just to shut up and do it?

it is typically a blend of all 3, just shut up and do it generally speaking is the college baseball culture. There are outliers but yes that is the expectation.

Wow, some interesting replies. For those that have sons that aspire to pro ball...that's probably 99% of them...a pro scout once called a team in our league to check their schedule as he wanted to see a particular player. The scout was told the player said he was "tired' and had gone home the previous week (about 35 games into a 42 game schedule). The scout's words: "That's great, I can take him off of my list. If he can't handle a 42 game schedule, he sure can't handle a minor league or major league schedule with triple that many games."   An under-rated part of summer ball is that players need to learn to get their sleep, get their rest, get their work in, and take care of their body...for 2 months, not 6 months as in the MLB, but a goods learning situation nevertheless.    It's not just a mid-week game and 3 more on weekends. With rain outs to be made up, occasionally we play 9-10 nights in a row. The coaches get guys nights off and it's a lot of games...but nothing like Milb or MLB.   For pitchers, pitch counts are closely monitored and the Pitch Smart rules are strictly enforced, but they too need to learn the value of getting into a routine, getting their work in, and getting their rest.   And quite a few pitchers have improved their golf game during the summers as well.       But I can tell you that the hard workers are noticed and whether in calls from college coaches shopping the portal or calls from scouts, a solid work ethic is always mentioned and always well-received.      

Hokie;

"Outstanding" summary. Do not give up! The Pro scout "network" is amazing.

"Baseball teach life"! "How to make adjustment"

Bob

@hokieone posted:

Wow, some interesting replies. For those that have sons that aspire to pro ball...that's probably 99% of them...a pro scout once called a team in our league to check their schedule as he wanted to see a particular player. The scout was told the player said he was "tired' and had gone home the previous week (about 35 games into a 42 game schedule). The scout's words: "That's great, I can take him off of my list. If he can't handle a 42 game schedule, he sure can't handle a minor league or major league schedule with triple that many games."   An under-rated part of summer ball is that players need to learn to get their sleep, get their rest, get their work in, and take care of their body...for 2 months, not 6 months as in the MLB, but a goods learning situation nevertheless.    It's not just a mid-week game and 3 more on weekends. With rain outs to be made up, occasionally we play 9-10 nights in a row. The coaches get guys nights off and it's a lot of games...but nothing like Milb or MLB.   For pitchers, pitch counts are closely monitored and the Pitch Smart rules are strictly enforced, but they too need to learn the value of getting into a routine, getting their work in, and getting their rest.   And quite a few pitchers have improved their golf game during the summers as well.       But I can tell you that the hard workers are noticed and whether in calls from college coaches shopping the portal or calls from scouts, a solid work ethic is always mentioned and always well-received.      

I think you hit the nail on the head here, realistically maybe 25% should have pro aspirations or some number way below 99%

I also think the season isn't 2 months. The season starts 6 to 7 days a week in January for these guys and basically is a year round gig with a few breaks. Add in the class time, the fact that they aren't professionals yet and maturity is a bog part of that. Academics are a way bigger part of the picture for baseball players then some other sports...the list goes on.

I think baseball as an entity asks for a tremendous commitment while not providing many of the perks that football and basketball provide. 

Good conversation here as I can see both points very clearly.   HokieOne's 99% could apply to the freshmen or underclassmen who think they are on the fast track to MLB.  But I also see old_schools 25% applying to guys who have been around the block and seen exactly how difficult it is to 1) get playing time 2) get drafted or 3) just play anywhere at the next level.  I clearly understand the problem, but I don't have a solution.

When we first started at HSBBWeb many moons ago (son was a freshman in high school), I read a lot but did not post or contribute at all.   There was one post I remember very clearly, and it really stuck with me.   The point was that baseball (in general) is going to eventually chew you up and spit you out whether that was in high school, college, MiLB or MLB.   Everybody has a different timetable, but eventually baseball will come to an end on terms dictated to you.   Some of us can understand it, embrace it and prepare for it was kind of the gist of it.   Others don't or won't acknowledge it.   I think my son at 17 years old understood this (he's an old soul) as I explained it to him .  He decided he was going to turn the tables and use baseball as best he could for as long as he could until he could do something else professionally with as much passion as he had for baseball.  Honestly, I think more kids and young adults are thinking this way, and reading stories about the minor league salaries, conditions, less teams and more opportunities for world athletes (Latinos and Asians) to compete in US baseball.  Are kids today more practical, savvy and realistic?  I don't know the answer to that, but I know one kid who was.   

JMO.

Fenway, it is Summer Leagues like Hokie's that survive each year relying on the "commitment" of the player who is invited.

The question: Why are you playing?

If the player is not 100% for the experience, then HE should not join the TEAM. His future employer will ask that question.

Bob

I would say that playing in a good summer league IS a perk that other athletes don't have. You get to work on and play the game you love, while being watched by fans who want to see you play, and provided with food and housing.  (of course doesn't apply to leagues where you have to pay)  Surely you don't only have to dream of the MLB to be able to view this as an internship for a range of careers, from coaching to the entertainment business.

Hokieone's original post was not about college players who choose not to play summer ball. Certainly that is understandable, and, for starting college pitchers or students with defined career goals or rising seniors who realize that professional baseball isn't in the picture, it makes perfect sense.

His post was about players who sign to play in summer ball, and then don't like it and leave. And yes, I've known some like that, too. Sometimes they are not playing as well as they hoped - maybe they don't want to look bad for their college coaches. Maybe they see no consequences to leaving, since they aren't being paid. Maybe they have family situations that they don't share.

But I'm guessing that summer league managers are also having to deal with the fallout from the college season. With all the transfers, I'd guess that anxiety is through the roof.  Players who didn't get much PT in the college season are probably not feeling the love for baseball or the hope of the draft, especially if they have injuries or don't play very well in the summer.

Bob - I understand the situation, as I very closely read Hokieones post as well as all the others.  Exactly as you've written it above is the problem....players are not 100% for the experience and so the numbers are down.   The ones that elect to play are 100% focused on themselves.   Many players are leaving these college summer leagues, and this is a problem for the business and most likely for the college baseball ecosystem.   Let's call that the "what" in this little problem that hokieone has brought forward.   

The discussion since the original post is verifying the "what" but also opening up the "who" and "why" issues tied to this.   Is there any thing you want to share from that perspecitve?

Once again, no one is forcing anyone to go play. There are plenty of players out there who put in significant time on the field, want some time off or take classes to lighten the load for next semester.

If you haven't played much, go play. If  you don't want to, don't be surprised if you are not part of the team in the fall. If your heart isn't in it anymore, move on. There are plenty of players waiting to take your place.

To avoid any issues, have this discussion prior to committing to any program.

Before there’s any misperception of what I’m about to post I understand pitchers hitting their pitching limit and injuries happen. If a player is returning to college in the fall to compete for a position he wants his injuries/dings to be healed.

Otherwise, the first time a person does something it can be hard. The more they do it the easier it gets. It applies to improving in anything. It also applies to quitting. Once a person has quit once it gets easier and easier each time.

If a player quits his summer league team it’s just practice for quitting on his college team if the fall doesn’t go well. Almost everyone on a college roster is capable of starting. The studs at the top of the roster are a given. After the it becomes about who is mentally tougher. It’s about those who are physically ready and mentally tougher than the rest. They’re the players who are all in when opportunity knocks.

Sports experiences often carry over to adult life post baseball. Learning how to quit in baseball can carry over to a person’s professional life.

This said, I give a pass to those who have hit the wall baseball talent wise but recognize they’re at the right school academically. It’s more likely to occur with D3 players. There isn’t another level to move down. There are also some HA D1’s that would be an exception.

If my son was at Harvard or similar and baseball wasn’t working out he wouldn’t be leaving. If he considered it my response would be, “Are you out of your bleep’n mind? You can still go play in a semi pro or MABL summer league.”

Personally, I was tired of the summer Sunday doubleheaders by the end of the season. I looked forward to a couple of weeks without baseball. But after those two weeks I couldn’t wait to get started with fall ball.

I was the kid growing up if there wasn’t anyone to play with a was throwing a rubber ball against the garage. Or I was playing Start O Matic by myself. I couldn’t get enough baseball.

I had great memories this week watching the last two games of the ‘67 season (Sox against the Twins). The regular season ended with Jim Lomborg carried off the field on his teammates shoulders. I was twelve.

After college other than going to a few Dodgers and Angels games I was more into becoming a competitive beach volleyball player. It’s a sport where you’re short at 6’1”.

Remember when fans stormed the field in celebration?

https://youtu.be/uUQQj5Q-fy0

Who - is the opposing team, my team, the Host family,  the COACHES.

What I can learn from this experience for the future. THE summer team is like a College class.

Actually it became a "term paper" for my Grad Psychology CLASS.

Why - Why am I playing? To improve, to gain baseball knowledge, to explore new areas of USA and Canada and to live independent.

When I batted off Bob Gibson, I asked myself "what am I doing here"? Watertown, SD in the College "Basin" League.

Bad lights, no helmet and ball looking like an aspirin tablet!

Bob

@old_school posted:

I think you hit the nail on the head here, realistically maybe 25% should have pro aspirations or some number way below 99%

I also think the season isn't 2 months. The season starts 6 to 7 days a week in January for these guys and basically is a year round gig with a few breaks. Add in the class time, the fact that they aren't professionals yet and maturity is a bog part of that. Academics are a way bigger part of the picture for baseball players then some other sports...the list goes on.

I think baseball as an entity asks for a tremendous commitment while not providing many of the perks that football and basketball provide.

They also play a 60 game season that rolls right into summer ball. If you're in the NW league where they're playing 70 game seasons you're playing 130 games while going to school and doing whatever else. A+ plays a 130 game season and they have over a month left.

I'm not anti summer ball, but I am anti blind dedication. I understand why players get annoyed when the only time they have off they're being told they have to go somewhere they don't really want to be and what they're competing for is not nearly as significant in their college season.

If you need reps, innings absolutely. If you want to increase draft status sure. But there are a lot of kids who don't fit those two categories that would probably prefer to be somewhere else and I don't really blame them. There are alternate routes to summer ball that can be valuable in their own way

@TPM posted:

Once again, no one is forcing anyone to go play.

The coaching staff is forcing them. I'm sure there could be some dialogue but the theme definitely seems to be here is where you're going, don't make this difficult.

I'm not pro or anti summer ball I'm just pointing out the general attitude of the players I've been around watching different leagues with my own eyes and what I read on social media. Is summer ball a necessary experience? Maybe. Do players enjoy their summer season significantly less than their college season? I think the answer would be overwhelmingly yes, especially as you move away from the Cape and other top leagues.

I have to say this is kind of discouraging.  I know my son as a late blooming kid who had very little experience on the mound when he got an offer to play in college (all potential, effective but no polish), would love to put in a year or two of summer league.  He'd be fortunate to be given that opportunity and it would all be just to be a better college pitcher.  It would be a shame to have that attitude all around him.

I think leagues should know who they are, and the kids in them should know why they are in that league.  A "collegiate" league is for college athletes to get more reps if they need them,  leagues like the cape are for showcasing potential pro talent.  One should not try to be the other and players should not think the league is supposed to be more than it is.  If you are there for the right reason and are in the right league for that reason, I can't find a logical reason for any kid to bail on that outside of injury, etc.

Now horrible host families and the like are an issue the leagues need to deal with and players should speak up about it.  Is there a probation period for host families with oversight.  Exit interviews with players and host families, etc.

I get the impression that good host families are getting harder and harder to find/replace.  Heard the Hamptons league had some teams dissolve as all the homes were becoming second home vacation houses and some of the older hosts were moving on (cashing out).  I think the team owners ending up stuffing as many players as they could in their own homes.  Looks like some of the newer leagues have a completely different housing model (motels to go along with pay to play). 

I do think the social media discussed earlier has something to do with it - seeing everyone else's summer fun when you perhaps get shipped off to some rural outpost (although some of the locations do seem more like vacation spots).  I think social media has now been around long enough that 95% of these kids are very active users and some find it hard to embellish Kokomo Indiana nightlife.

@PABaseball posted:

The coaching staff is forcing them. I'm sure there could be some dialogue but the theme definitely seems to be here is where you're going, don't make this difficult.

If the coach is doing nothing to help the player develop in fall or spring and the coaching staff is forcing them, sounds like a bunch of coaches who need to find another profession.

JMO

TPM;

College Coaches should always prepare for their next level. They can educate themselves.

Take the opportunity to evaluate, investigate all the Summer Leagues and Summer Team coaches before they match a player to a team.

Ask the questions of the Team Owners;

What is the resume of the team Coaches, what is the "host family" situation, do they evaluate the host family? What baseball and cultural development can our players expect? Do they have available the MLB playbook? How do the players travel to away games? How are pitcher's -pitch count controlled? What is your history of players departing before season is completed.

Final question: do I receive a % of the gate.

Bob

@Consultant

Most college coaches, especially at the D1 level, are familiar with many of the organizations GMs that they send their players to year after year.

But coaching staffs do change summer to summer and perhaps that may be part of the problem.

I can't speak for other divisions.

JMO

@old_school posted:

I also think the season isn't 2 months. The season starts 6 to 7 days a week in January for these guys and basically is a year round gig with a few breaks. Add in the class time, the fact that they aren't professionals yet and maturity is a bog part of that. Academics are a way bigger part of the picture for baseball players then some other sports...the list goes on.

I think baseball as an entity asks for a tremendous commitment while not providing many of the perks that football and basketball provide.

For most of the guys this is so true. So the “season is about 90+ games for most D1. There are certainly schools in certain conferences that do have some pretty nice perks. But for the majority, not many perks outside of getting the opportunity to play a child’s game, as an adult. When the opportunity to play gets taken from you, for whatever reason, I bet most guys aren’t complaining then, just saying’

Mike Gillespies USC summer baseball rules

@HSDad22 posted:

Mike Gillespies USC summer baseball rules

Does "think this out in advance" mean if you aren't sure then don't go?

TPM

most definitely    Mike had a few more comments “face to face” with each player.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Fenway, it is Summer Leagues like Hokie's that survive each year relying on the "commitment" of the player who is invited.

The question: Why are you playing?

If the player is not 100% for the experience, then HE should not join the TEAM. His future employer will ask that question.

Bob

I believe that for a large percentage of players the why is because i am told, from that point they if they want to stay relevant in the program they have no choice. Baseball already proudly proclaimed there is no loyalty, you can and will be replaced in a moment at any level. There really is little choice if you want to stay in the program you currently reside at. It may be a choice but it is a choice staring down the barrel of the gun as they say.

As far as his future employer will ask, well outside of baseball you are incorrect. The vast majority of these kids won't play pro and I promise you their future employer won't give a damn. As a side note, they aren't joining teams they are being placed on them...big difference. But none of that seems to matter because everyone want to believe manage and operate as if we are MLB training ground...it is supposed to be college baseball not Milb.

Why is the concept of loyalty so hard to figure out? When organizations show none or little, they will receive none or very little back. Baseball is actually quite proud of it being survival of the fittest and that nobody is safe....the narcaissism in mind blowing.

@old_school posted:

I believe that for a large percentage of players the why is because i am told, from that point they if they want to stay relevant in the program they have no choice. Baseball already proudly proclaimed there is no loyalty, you can and will be replaced in a moment at any level. There really is little choice if you want to stay in the program you currently reside at. It may be a choice but it is a choice staring down the barrel of the gun as they say.

As far as his future employer will ask, well outside of baseball you are incorrect. The vast majority of these kids won't play pro and I promise you their future employer won't give a damn. As a side note, they aren't joining teams they are being placed on them...big difference. But none of that seems to matter because everyone want to believe manage and operate as if we are MLB training ground...it is supposed to be college baseball not Milb.

Why is the concept of loyalty so hard to figure out? When organizations show none or little, they will receive none or very little back. Baseball is actually quite proud of it being survival of the fittest and that nobody is safe....the narcaissism in mind blowing.

I agree with this 100%.  I think most kids (and parents) go in with rose colored glasses and buy in to what they've been sold.  In many cases, they quickly learn that the coach doesn't much care much about trying to develop them, and is constantly looking for their replacement.  

What about this? The great "equalizer"!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouble_with_the_Curve

Bob

I feel like I can add a little perspective here...

My son is a 2019 HS grad who has played at two different schools and now in three different collegiate summer leagues.

The summer after his freshman season (Covid year 2020), he played in the SCBL for the full season. He started just a few days after school ended, and played until about a week before going back to school. He was able to live for this summer with his aunt who was about 30 minutes from the home field. It was also close enough that he could come home on a few of the off days.

Last summer, he played a partial season in the VBL (with some much appreciated placement assistance from some great folks here on this forum - he was in the transfer portal so his previous coach didn't help.)  He had a few weeks home before moving up there, and maybe a week or two at end of season. Had a great host family, with 2 players sharing a large private space in the basement.

This current summer, he played a full season in the Coastal Plain League. Had 1 day at home after spring school season ended, and 6 days at home after summer season before he reports back to school this weekend. Again, he had a great host family, even though the conditions were cramped with 3 players sharing a very small house with the family. Team provided a gym membership where he spent much of his free time, but there were also afternoons at the lake and a few rounds of golf.  (Proud dad  - He also took 4 summer classes and made 4 As this summer.)

In each of these three different experiences, he has made new friends and extended his circle of baseball connections. Players and coaches and team officials and host families and members of the communities he will remember forever...

In each season, he has gotten opportunities to pitch in meaningful games and played in front of enthusiastic fans and tried hard to win championships and help grow the community involvement with the teams.

He's had the opportunity to learn different things from diverse groups of teammates and coaches, and see the world from several vastly different perspectives. On MLB Draft night, he traded texts with previous teammates who had gotten the call. He was proud to tell me how he had gotten outs against several of the guys who had been popped early - and I reminded him of one or two who had gotten hits or walks against him :-)

Yeah, there were several times when it was hard, and maybe a few times when he wanted to be somewhere else, but the value of these experiences is so much greater than having a few more weeks of idle time. I mean, he told me last night that he was really tired in the last few weeks, but that the experience of making the championship series and pitching in Bananaland was something he'll never forget.

And, I never got the sense that there was an overall feeling of going-through-the-motions among his teammates. In all the games we were able to see (in person and streaming,) the team chemistry and enthusiasm seemed incredible.

Who knows what the future will bring, but he sure expects to play as many more summer seasons as possible, and he hopes to be able to get into leagues and situations where he can keep learning and keep getting seen by the folks who can help him go farther in the game.

I'd like to publicly thank @hokieone (and all the others here) who helped him get these opportunities. The contacts he made in the VBL when he was in the portal led directly to transferring to his new school.

So, I guess the point of all this is just to say that for some kids, especially mine, that the summer ball experiences can be some of the best and most influential they will ever have. They will learn much that would not be possible otherwise, and it will benefit them in everything they'll do later.

It's a small sample size, but from my perspective, leagues like the VBL and the CPL don't have too much to worry about - they're providing a great service to their players and their communities.

I remember one year of college summer ball my coach promised fourteen position players starting positions. Two got pissed and walked away. It made life a little easier.

The next season I changed teams to an honest coach. He told me I was his center fielder. The previous coach told me, “But you were going to be an every game starter this year.” Sure I was! He just didn’t want me playing against his team. A lot of players didn’t return the following year. He pulled the same BS on a new round of recruits.

Looking back I did something not so mature in BP the first game against my old team. The previous coach was standing down the right field line chatting with someone. I lined every pitch down the right field line. I was trying to hit him. I did keep him alert. He had me drilled in my first at bat. Then, given this was baseball in the 70’s I knocked his shortstop into next week breaking up a double play.

T_Thomas;

Outstanding! He has a good future with these experiences.

Now reading "Cloudbuster Nine" by Anne Keene. Story of the Navy pilots training at Chapel Hill during WW2. One of the pilots was Ted Williams.

Johnny Pesky, Johnny Sain were also Cadets.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

T_Thomas;

...Now reading "Cloudbuster Nine" by Anne Keene. Story of the Navy pilots training at Chapel Hill during WW2. One of the pilots was Ted Williams....

Bob

Thanks Bob.  I ordered it yesterday after you mentioned it.  I've always been a big fan of Ted Williams. Amazing what he was able to accomplish on the ball field and battle field...

T_Thomas;

Please notice the "vision" of Ted as he utilize the teaching of the Navy to refine his hitting. As a pilot, he learned the weather conditions and later applied to hitting a baseball. "Spin rate" in 1943.

When you finished the book, please send me a report.

Bob Williams

I am surprised coaches still need to remind players of "f"

Fascinating discussion here..   I think everyone is correct in many aspects.
IMO- Summer Ball is about Growth- personally and baseball wise...

it's about Perserverance..

my 2019 RHP has been put through many challenges/schools/portals etc..  very difficult but after awhile it makes you stronger.

last year , while he was in the portal, during the summer he went to Driveline for a week and he worked out with our local PC and played for PC's local team.  He thought that was the best fit for growth at that time.

this summer- His current D1 didn't really want him to play Summer but he insisted and they placed him in the WCL-
not the whole season but about 5 weeks.  exact and limited pitch counts..

within 24 hours of him being there - we get the phone call:

"host family is 30 min away from field, I don't have a car, there is no pitching coach and no body works out here- I think it would be more beneficial to come home to work out with home PC "

so how do you handle that?   

on one hand he kind of has some valid point's.

but on the other hand it is about personal Growth and perserverance.. as well as grinding it out and being a good teammate and dependable person

so we rented him a car from afar. he got back some freedom and found a gym.   He weathered another  "mini storm" along with some crazy bus trips and had a good time.  Pitched well too.. made friends and memories that he won't ever forget.

It was a good decision.

@hokieone posted:

My Valley League team just completed our 10th year, and in talking with other teams' officials, and folks from other summer leagues, everyone is noticing changes, and whether those changes are good, bad, or indifferent I guess is in the eye of the beholder.  First and foremost, and I really don't like this one, there are a lot of players 100% focused on themselves, first, last, and always. We had a player from a big time D-1 program tell his host family that he was here to put up numbers so he could transfer; he couldn't care less whether the team won or lost, didn't really care about the town or all of the volunteers, he was in the portal and needed numbers. And when he got an offer mid-summer from another D-1, away he went. Some other players just packed and left, with no word to their host family or our coaches until they arrived at their home. 'It's all about me" seems to be the operative expression. Thankfully we also had a lot of really good kids that worked their butts off, improved their game, and were a delight for the fans and the host families...but the "all about me" crowd seems to be growing.    This seems to be happening across the country as I know some kids signed late by the Cape that would have never gotten a sniff from the Cape a few years ago, which tells me that even the Cape is seeing a lot of turnover. From our original 35 man roster, 22 were gone by the end of the summer-some innings limits, some injuries, some girl friends, some just flaked out...but as scouts will tell you, if a kid can't hack a 42 game summer schedule, how with they handle a MiLB schedule?         Another team ended up with 5 of their original 35 players.  2 teams couldn't complete the playoffs because they ran out of either position players, pitchers, or both.     And our league is a very old and respected league, not just a "come lately".    The portal is now huge-we had quite a few college coaches come to a lot of games to scout guys that were in the transfer portal. Our GM got a number of calls asking what "portal kids" we had.  We had 5 former players drafted in the MLB draft this summer, the highest was in round 4. 2 more guys signed as free agents. Next year, we will have a former player probably go in the top 10 picks. So if we can't keep kids, what about less established teams in less established leagues?      I don't know the answers-our league's board will be having a lot of discussions, but I suspect some summer leagues will just fold and some teams will just fold.   The "good kids" make it worthwhile and praise the Lord our league seemed to have a bunch of them...but the "Me First" numbers are growing.     

Well why didn't you post something on here? It was decided that the kid could go back later in the season. He and his coaches looked and looked. A simple post here would have picked up a kid grateful to play. Yes, one could point out that we should have posted on here looking, my bad, but this is a resource you choose not to use then come here complaining.

@SomeBaseballDad posted:

Well why didn't you post something on here? It was decided that the kid could go back later in the season. He and his coaches looked and looked. A simple post here would have picked up a kid grateful to play. Yes, one could point out that we should have posted on here looking, my bad, but this is a resource you choose not to use then come here complaining.

I am sure there are NCAA guidelines regarding summer leagues. I would imagine that leagues cannot recruit, but rather be contacted by a player or a coach.

Would appreciate hokieone commenting.

I’m never short on opinions and usually not shy about expressing them. So why change now?
I don’t believe the NCAA has any jurisdiction over college summer leagues. Only definitions about what can destroy an amateur status as defined by the NCAA. Not 100% sure but I would bet on it. Also, many leagues actively recruit players. I have done it myself.
Therefore I don’t think there would have been a legal problem if HokieOne had posted about wanting a player or two.          My experience on this board has been that HSBBW are more than happy to help another member any way they can. With no expectations of anything in return. HSBBW is a platform that many use to give back to the game and/or stay involved in the game. That’s one of my very favorite things about it.

In case anyone is interested I Googled, “ What makes a college summer league NCAA approved?

https://studylib.net/doc/85208...-baseball-guidelines

Leagues and teams recruit at least below the top leagues. For example ACBL added teams this years, they had to recruit.

I think those guidelines are outdated.  MLB grant money is paid directly to the MLB-approved leagues (meaning the league and all teams must be 501(c)(3), and must submit financial and other info to MLB as requested). Some players get part-time jobs but I have never heard of anyone reporting those jobs to the NCAA. Summer leagues do have be be wary of NCAA eligibility rules to make sure a player doesn't inadvertently become ineligible; for example if the team has a D 1 or D 2 coach, the team cannot sign JUCO players.   As for recruiting, teams can recruit pretty much however they please. I have even seen summer teams use Twitter looking for prospective players. Our team recruits by our GM contacting the college coaches that he routinely has worked with over the years.   And it goes both ways-colleges often contact us to determine if we have interest in and room for players.     During our season, replacing players  can get a bit hectic-travel plans, getting unis from departing players, updating the roster, coordinating with the host family about their "new" player (we tell our hosts not to fall in love with their players, but they often still do..our veteran hosts have seen that players can come and go and handle changes very well).   Our league has increased the allowed roster size to 35, and most teams that fill their limit have at least 20 pitchers. That sounds like a lot, and it is, but with innings limits, pitch count limits, college guys needing more rest between outings than pros, etc., and with weather sometimes playing havoc with schedules,  a lot of arms are needed and by the end of the summer, all of the pitchers have gotten plenty of work.    We had a stretch this summer playing 11 days in a row, and another stretch with 5 games in 3 days.  Our league plays a 42 game schedule and we try very hard to be finished by early August, if not late July, so players can have some "home time" before going back to school.     And we are truly nonprofit. Our coaches and trainer are paid. Everyone else is a volunteer.  And a lot of people put in a lot of time with fund-raising, caring for the field, coordinating host families, etc. simply out of a desire to provide a good experience for our players, and provide a place where locals can go and watch good baseball during the summer at a cheap price (admission has been $5 forever, and most kids get in free).  There is no local economic benefit except for players' families visiting and using local hotels and eateries.  Our fans socialize with their friends as they  watch the games and its a good warm atmosphere.   Some players appreciate what's done for them  and some don't, and that's all perfectly fine.  Lots of relationships have formed through the years between players and their hosts that continue long after the player's career ends-weddings, birth announcements, Mother's Day cards, graduations, visits-all of this happens, and it's the coolest part of summer ball-relationships.  

@hokieone Thank you, I had done a search but didn't come up with what I was looking for.

I didn't see your original post as complaining, but explaining how things have changed.

Hokie

Would you consider having the players and parents signing a contract to accept your “rules of conduct”.

Bob

Signing "contracts" is somewhat of a wasted effort. If a player breaches the contract, our remedy is to sue the player (and I am a recovering/retiring attorney), but that's really extreme. If a kid wants to leave for whatever reason, you might as well just move on. We try to talk to players leaving for less than obvious reasons (such as injuries, pitch counts, academic obligations), and some have stayed, but at times you just wish them well and be thankful you get the unis back.   It comes with the territory. It's a truism of summer ball that the team you start with is not the one you finish with.  This is weird: we started our team in the Valley League 11 years ago. We won 10 games, out of 44, our first summer. Not a single player left early. And we didn't have a  single game rained out.   The odds of either of those two things are huge.

Would it make sense to shorten the summer season a bit? Or perhaps have a few players start early and leave and have a few that arrive late and finish the season? They could have a week or two of overlap in the middle to give a couple kids a couple days off.

I'll share one personal experience and hopefully it's helpful for someone in our community.

My HA D3 rising sophomore spent all summer as a PO on a NW team - one he initially targeted since only a few hours from home/GF, thinking he'd be able to visit on "off days" or from being pitched out.  I was really worried about the long summer commitment but looked at it as a kind of "study abroad" experience imagining it would culturally be different on many levels.  He'd only pitched around 15 innings in the spring and his goals were to get innings and immerse himself in a competitive environment.  He arrived Memorial Day weekend as one of the younger, greener players on the team having just been moved to a new host family a half hour's drive from the ballpark.  Well, he only made it back once during the all star break and just now wrapped 70+ games, arriving home with a newly formed mustache, a thick gold chain and some really entertaining stories from what we all believe will end up being one of the most unique and valuable summers of his life.

There were many highs and lows, especially performance-wise, with some really tough outings all which we frame as good experiences along with the times he stood on the mound with his teammates after earning a W. 

On the plus side, he ended up with a wonderful host family and a great roommate to share a finished basement set up along with the commute/gas money.  He also raved about his HC who he revered in many ways and I believe set the tone for such a close-knit team. 

And there were definitely hardships throughout the summer.  Some host families and players had issues, a coach "left", one of the teams had their gear stolen off the bus along with the typical challenges of sharing hotel beds, long and late bus rides, perceived lack of playing time, player injuries, etc. 

Regarding the OP, there were some "me" centered players and they didn't last long on this team and, my understanding is, that was communicated to their college coaches. 

But overall, my kid had such a rich experience living and playing with new found brothers with bonds built throughout a summer of winning, losing, prevailing, struggling and a lot of time shooting the sh*t out in the bullpen.  He says this team had some of the best chemistry of any of the teams he's played on with a make up of  NAIA, JuCo, D1-3 players from all over the country. 

I made it up to watch his last game and witness my stoic and rather undemonstrative kid hug it out with his teammates, hearing "love you, man" as they said goodbye.  I had to quickly look since there's no crying in baseball. 

My nostalgic mood didn't last long as it sounds like the stache is here to stay...oy.

@tribefangirl

Sounds like an awesome summer ball experience and one that he will always remember!

Tribefan girl,

a great story of a team forming. His College team will benefit from your son’s experience. A great example of Social Psychology.

Bob

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Would it make sense to shorten the summer season a bit? Or perhaps have a few players start early and leave and have a few that arrive late and finish the season? They could have a week or two of overlap in the middle to give a couple kids a couple days off.

Yes, I agree.  I understand the schedule in comparison to trying to mimic a minor league schedule, but we are painting a wide brush with a lot of these young men and times have changed.  We talk a lot about kids going into the transfer portal and the summer is a hot time for them in regards to recruiting so they are now trying to play baseball in a new town with new teammates and living with strangers while trying to find a new home to play in the fall (some by choice, some by no choice of their own.)  They are trying to find time to visit a new school, meet with a new coach, and eventually make a new commitment.  This wasn't as big of an issue a few years ago because the transfer portal wasn't as crazy as it has been the last couple of years so these boys just played all summer and then went back to where they were.  There are boys playing up until just days before they need to move into a new school and some are thousands of miles away from home yet!

My son's teammate was an outfielder who was in this exact same situation.  He finally committed to a new school, needed to start a class for admission and find housing for the fall so was given permission to leave early.  He was called back to play because he was told that the team was short players (complete lie, they actually had extra kids sitting on the bench) but he was a great outfielder and hitter and the coaches wanted to win in games that meant nothing.  In his first game back he slid into 3rd and tore his ACL..DONE for the season at his brand new school!  To say that him, his parents, and his new college coach are extremely angry is putting it mildly.  I can't blame them.

I love the summer leagues for these boys for so many reasons and love the community involvement that rallies around these programs, but if the transfer situation doesn't change then maybe it does need to be looked at for shortening these summer seasons.  Because as others have said multiple times on this site, are we looking for a 4-year or 40-year plan?? 

That story about the ACL is just unbearable.  Although, of course, it could have happened in the first practice at the new school, too, or any time - or while riding a motorcycle, like Tatis.  So you can't really blame summer ball for that.  Of course, if they didn't play during the summer, they wouldn't get injured - but they wouldn't be playing.  That's like saying a kid shouldn't play high school ball because he might get injured for the travel season (or vice versa).

But I totally take the point that baseball players have a lot more to worry about, these days, than just how they are playing and getting injured.

@anotherparent posted:

That story about the ACL is just unbearable.  Although, of course, it could have happened in the first practice at the new school, too, or any time - or while riding a motorcycle, like Tatis.  So you can't really blame summer ball for that.  Of course, if they didn't play during the summer, they wouldn't get injured - but they wouldn't be playing.  That's like saying a kid shouldn't play high school ball because he might get injured for the travel season (or vice versa).

But I totally take the point that baseball players have a lot more to worry about, these days, than just how they are playing and getting injured.

Oh for sure!!  It could have happened at any moment, I think it was just the situation he was put in that caused so much frustration and anger. 

@anotherparent posted:

That story about the ACL is just unbearable.  Although, of course, it could have happened in the first practice at the new school, too, or any time - or while riding a motorcycle, like Tatis.  So you can't really blame summer ball for that.  Of course, if they didn't play during the summer, they wouldn't get injured - but they wouldn't be playing.  That's like saying a kid shouldn't play high school ball because he might get injured for the travel season (or vice versa).

But I totally take the point that baseball players have a lot more to worry about, these days, than just how they are playing and getting injured.

I know of at least 1 HS player that didn't play last year to avoid injury before the draft.

Hokie;

Maybe you can provide the "parents" a day in the life of a Summer Team GM. What is the cost to arrange housing, games, coaching for each player? This expense is paid by income from the "customer".

The ticket paying customer for the games contributes to the summer income of the ushers, grounds crew, food concessions, program ads & sales, office staff and Coaches.

A shorter season will reduce this INCOME.

Summer baseball is a business. "Enjoy the opportunity"!

Stanford conducted a research - $1 expended at the ballpark rotates 20 times thru the Community.

Bob

A "typical" CEO/GM day, at least for me:   7:30 a.m. drive into town and set out "sandwich board" signs for the night's game. During the morning, I will receive an e-mail with the umpires for tonight's game that I forward to the head coach.  Usually I receive an e-mail from my son  who does all of our players recruiting if any roster changes have occurred. 12:00-1:00 p.m. Once or twice a week, go to the field and mow the area outside of the fences, 4:00-4:30, head to the field to make sure the interns have cups and water/Gatorade (the home guys get the Gatorade) to both dugouts prior to BP. BP starts at 5:00. Take programs/rosters to gift shop, 5:00-6:30, obtain lineups and have interns write-up a larger print version for the PA announcer (me), make sure scorekeeper gets lineups into the computer (Pointstreaks), confirm in game activity plans with interns, confirm nightly giveaways, get info for any game sponsors for that night to announce, 6:50 start announcements, player introduction, get microphone to National Anthem singer for the night, 7:00-9:45ish, game. My particular duties are I do the PA, music, and scoreboard. Also in the press box are our scorekeeper and on-line game announcer (and the baseball talk up there as we all work is always enjoyable, especially sweetly glaring or throat-clearing at the scorer if we disagree with a hit/error decision). After the game ends, visit with the first lady a bit, clean up and shut down the press box, along with interns empty all trash cans and make sure all trash is picked up. Grab some of the post-game meal (provided by volunteers every home game), talk with visiting parents, make sure things are cleaned up and locked up, go around town and put away the "sandwich board' signs. Get home anywhere from 1O:45 to 11:45.   Discuss whatever the first lady wants to discuss about the game and life, and hopefully sound asleep by midnight.  And Away games are just great-I get to be a spectator, doing none of  the above, but my wife and I go to every away game.   Fortunately in the Valley League our trips are relatively short-2 teams are 2 hours away but most are 20-30 minutes.      We play 42 games, plus playoffs.   And while we have a lot of fun as we work, when the season ends, we exhale and enjoy some free time.

hokieone;

Thank you for this "day in the life of a Summer League GM". I appreciate your knowledge to provide opportunities for the young College Baseball player.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Hokie;

Maybe you can provide the "parents" a day in the life of a Summer Team GM. What is the cost to arrange housing, games, coaching for each player? This expense is paid by income from the "customer".

The ticket paying customer for the games contributes to the summer income of the ushers, grounds crew, food concessions, program ads & sales, office staff and Coaches.

A shorter season will reduce this INCOME.

Summer baseball is a business. "Enjoy the opportunity"!

Stanford conducted a research - $1 expended at the ballpark rotates 20 times thru the Community.

Bob

If the quality of the product is declining, it is only a matter of time until the paying fans start to decline as well. Less income any way you slice it. Successful businesses are always shifting and changing how they do things in order to keep revenue and profit at the highest levels that are sustainable. Finding a way to keep teams whole throughout the playoffs, whether shortening the season or changing the commitment of a player, would be a top priority. More kids are waking up to the fact that they won't be an MLB player. Seems like more are looking at the "opportunity" as an obligation.

Host families: Host families in our league are not paid. They provide a place for players to sleep, do laundry, and fix food. As a practical matter, most of our host families stock up on food and keep the guys fed, include players in family meals where possible, and turn into their players' biggest fans. A lot of our host families travel to our away games as the distances aren't too bad.   We encourage our host moms do launder the uniforms as many players just aren't too good at that.  We are well-pleased with our host families and could not operate without their support. Some teams in some leagues board players in hotels. Besides being very expensive, I think this takes away from the support that a host family can provide.  The player-host family connections often last for many years beyond the time when a player is here.

Something I want to add that I feel may contribute to some of what I believe the players are thinking

Before social media and the information era the only thing players really had available to them was the coaches they directly worked with. HS Coach, maybe a private instructor. Then college staff, and summer league coaches. You could walk away from your college career with quite literally 2 or 3 opinions on improving your game.

Now any kid can fly to Driveline and live there instead for an entire summer. Any kid can hop on YouTube and watch hours of Tom House material. Even twitter, PitchingNinja, pros, etc. In between reading thoughts from your buddies and the news you can have another perspective on pitching, hitting, fielding that was never available to you before.

I'm not saying the coaches in summer leagues are not good, not at all. But with all the information and material out there I feel like kids are more likely to get a lot of options to look at and stick with what works best for them. The opinion of their summer league PC or HC is less valuable now than it was years ago for most collegiate level players. Especially when it is obviously a situation where a coach is looking to get some experience and make his way thru the ranks as opposed to having a firm track record.

Driveline cannot place your son [pitcher] in an environment facing 6'8" Frank Howard or as a [Hitter] facing Bob Gibson.

This called College Summer League "game experience". "Survival" and opportunity to succeed.

"Go Hokie" One - "do not lose the faith".

Bob

@PABaseball   I always thought that summer ball was all about playing the game and working on your stuff. Making new friends and experiencing another aspect of the game. It's especially important for those who need to put in the work.

I saw son last week and told him about this topic. His response was, I am not really understanding why a player would NOT want to play summer ball unless he was hurt or needed to take classes to graduate on time.

TPM

Your son is correct. You can add to his list for a hitter or pitcher “Trouble with the Curve”, either hitting or throwing, the curve is a great equalizer. Maybe  a Summer of Baseball can provide the answer. The player who does not play Summer Baseball will never know the answer. Look for the “red” seams.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Driveline cannot place your son [pitcher] in an environment facing 6'8" Frank Howard or as a [Hitter] facing Bob Gibson.

This called College Summer League "game experience". "Survival" and opportunity to succeed.

Bob

Neither can 99% of summer leagues. But actually if you were a college hitter for the past few summers working out at Driveline odds are you would have been playing simulated games against Trevor Bauer and other pros. Live ABs off the Cy Young seems like a challenging environment.

Nobody wants to go to some summer league for survival.

@TPM posted:

@PABaseball   I always thought that summer ball was all about playing the game and working on your stuff. Making new friends and experiencing another aspect of the game. It's especially important for those who need to put in the work.

I saw son last week and told him about this topic. His response was, I am not really understanding why a player would NOT want to play summer ball unless he was hurt or needed to take classes to graduate on time.

It is. Once again I'm not anti-summer ball. In talking with current players and seeing it firsthand I'm just pointing out possible reasons for the decline in participation and morale.

My 2022 played in a college league to get adjusted to college bats. It was extremely useful.He made the All Star Game, it worked out nicely. He also thought it was a complete drag and none of his teammates or coaches cared to be there but he knew it was necessary and we both know he is significantly more prepared heading to school next week than some of the other arms in his recruiting class.

But for 90% of guys it's you're going here. And they do it not because they want to but because they have to. If you need reps go get the reps but if you're a returning starter in a league with almost no pro visibility I really don't see the need to play a college seasons worth of games in a little over two months. The Cape is on a different planet than the local league that sees maybe 6 fans a game.

It's not that it's not always useful. It's just a lot in a short amount of time. It's hard to get excited for if there isn't a defined purpose. Getting better is too broad and subjective. If it's not reps or pro visibility I can understand why some players would feel the way they do. Big difference between I want to do this and I have to do this. It makes a great difference.

@PABaseball posted:

It is. Once again I'm not anti-summer ball. In talking with current players and seeing it firsthand I'm just pointing out possible reasons for the decline in participation and morale.

My 2022 played in a college league to get adjusted to college bats. It was extremely useful.He made the All Star Game, it worked out nicely. He also thought it was a complete drag and none of his teammates or coaches cared to be there but he knew it was necessary and we both know he is significantly more prepared heading to school next week than some of the other arms in his recruiting class.

But for 90% of guys it's you're going here. And they do it not because they want to but because they have to. If you need reps go get the reps but if you're a returning starter in a league with almost no pro visibility I really don't see the need to play a college seasons worth of games in a little over two months. The Cape is on a different planet than the local league that sees maybe 6 fans a game.

It's not that it's not always useful. It's just a lot in a short amount of time. It's hard to get excited for if there isn't a defined purpose. Getting better is too broad and subjective. If it's not reps or pro visibility I can understand why some players would feel the way they do. Big difference between I want to do this and I have to do this. It makes a great difference.

@TPM posted:

@PABaseball   I always thought that summer ball was all about playing the game and working on your stuff. Making new friends and experiencing another aspect of the game. It's especially important for those who need to put in the work.

I saw son last week and told him about this topic. His response was, I am not really understanding why a player would NOT want to play summer ball unless he was hurt or needed to take classes to graduate on time.

I guess this is why esports is growing popularity.  I'm a Metaverse allstar.

One step closer of us being in the matrix.

Time to take the pill.

So on one hand we have a situation where parents are complaining their players are sitting on the bench because the coach picked up older guys from the portal and then on the other hand we have parents stating players do not want to go play summer ball because it's not something they want to do but the coach is forcing them to do it.

What happened to the player going away and playing like an all star and proving to the coach he deserves to get off the bench and be in the line up?

I think that CBI hit the nail on the head. Coach is making a player go away instead of sitting on his butt all summer playing video games.

Why not talk to the coach about a plan for an alternative and see what happens. 

@TPM posted:

So on one hand we have a situation where parents are complaining their players are sitting on the bench because the coach picked up older guys from the portal and then on the other hand we have parents stating players do not want to go play summer ball because it's not something they want to do but the coach is forcing them to do it.

What happened to the player going away and playing like an all star and proving to the coach he deserves to get off the bench and be in the line up?

I think that CBI hit the nail on the head. Coach is making a player go away instead of sitting on his butt all summer playing video games.

Why not talk to the coach about a plan for an alternative and see what happens.

@TPM  IMHO, I think we thought very simple, we wanted to compete, we wanted to win, more important we liked the social component of play baseball.

Playing all day, 7 on 7 (Pitcher, catcher, 3 infielders, 2 outfielders), no coaches or played a game of fungo.

The game always got contentious with balls and strikes in the last inning because the batter stayed at the plate until he got the perfect pitch.

There were a lot of fights at the end of these games and then we came back the next day to do it again.

The way that things are going there should probably be a Summer league that specializes in guys who are in the Portal.  It would make it much easier for schools to scout transfers.

@K9 posted:

The way that things are going there should probably be a Summer league that specializes in guys who are in the Portal.  It would make it much easier for schools to scout transfers.

Great idea! The Transfer Portal Collegiate Summer League : rules ; 1) after one month you must transfer to another team

K9 and Adbono;

Great idea. Make it one team and charge a "franchise fee".

Call it "Team One".

Players NOT allowed to depart the team until season is completed.

Bob