Great job by Fresno. Having seen Georgia twice last week, I thought they would win. Fresno was better as they controlled most innings of all 3 games.
Homerun04's son got a pinch hit single in the 9th for Fresno. Pretty special.
All the talk about Fresno being a 4-seed and Cinderella...certainly they are Cinderella but they were only a 4-seed because the seeding was messed up. They should've been a 2 or 3.
Great job nonetheless. Having spent some time in that city/town...I can tell you, for sure, that this is very, very special. It will be a GREAT homecoming for that team.
Oh, it is special all right. Fresno is already going nuts, good times when they come home. Son's team is in the same conference, not only that but they are our biggest rival in league, and I can tell you that every player on sons team has been rooting for them every step of the way, and texting and staying in touch from all over the country from their respective summer league teams. It is always a great feeling when the CWS champion is from your conference. So Kudos to Fresno until the battle begins again next year!
.
...Posted this after the Super Regionals and Fresno's upset there over ASU...
Took some abuse for the comment but it turns out to be prophetic.
One story to relate....Great young man, team player and pending senior out of olders program was not getting PT, transferred to Fresno last fall in the last avaialable transfer year....We watched him on TV for two weeks and today in a national championship dogpile...how cool is that.
44
.
...Posted this after the Super Regionals and Fresno's upset there over ASU...
quote:....when I look at Fresno State and I see team.
I have come to believe that talent goes a long way...but that in college ball "team" is the x factor.
And I gave come to believe that while talent can be identified and recruited..."team" is a great deal more elusive....despite all efforts sometimes it simply doesn't happen.
And I have come to believe that there are many times when the pursuit of "team" means sacrificing a great deal including wins...to achieve that elusive X Factor. Fresno used 8 guys in the #8 hole...tell me that those guys will not be "bought in" .
I see Fresno as a team with their heads completely in the opportunity before them...like Irvine last year...bought into this very moment.
Took some abuse for the comment but it turns out to be prophetic.
One story to relate....Great young man, team player and pending senior out of olders program was not getting PT, transferred to Fresno last fall in the last avaialable transfer year....We watched him on TV for two weeks and today in a national championship dogpile...how cool is that.
.
.
Very cool indeed 44!
Very cool indeed 44!
Every college team in America who have asperations for a title should be taking notes from Fresno State right now. They basically applied the Oregon State formula in winning. Great defense, timely hitting, and gutsy pitching performances. It isn't about what your numbers or rankings look like in the regular season. It is about when did your team start playing like a team and when did they get hot.
Some of the higher ranked teams in this tournament were perplexing to me. They played with an entitlement mentality like their conference or their ranking was supposed to intimidate people. Some of these teams when they fell behind looked like scared puppies. I never saw the scared look on Fresno State when they fell behind. They are the ones who did the intimdating - on the field as it should be. I couldn't be happier for them
Some of the higher ranked teams in this tournament were perplexing to me. They played with an entitlement mentality like their conference or their ranking was supposed to intimidate people. Some of these teams when they fell behind looked like scared puppies. I never saw the scared look on Fresno State when they fell behind. They are the ones who did the intimdating - on the field as it should be. I couldn't be happier for them
It almost seems like you shouldn't really read all the stuff the media puts out there, and just concentrate on what is happening with your own team.
If the non stop gibberish from the from the "live coverage and commentary" is what we should be satisfied with - Oh my Gosh! The camera people were great, did their jobs, I guess.
Commentary was horrible, am I the only one who thinks so - Geeeez get the roster straight, and stop repeating the same story over and over, there are guys on the team that you could cover and mix things up. It is maddening for the listeners to hear the same thing - and centering ont he same guys, I am sure they would like them to spread the interest a little - get a clue - cover every athlete on both teams - talk to the trainer, talk to the guy on the bench, that story is interesting,
same thing over and over is boring - even the guys you are covering think so.
If the non stop gibberish from the from the "live coverage and commentary" is what we should be satisfied with - Oh my Gosh! The camera people were great, did their jobs, I guess.
Commentary was horrible, am I the only one who thinks so - Geeeez get the roster straight, and stop repeating the same story over and over, there are guys on the team that you could cover and mix things up. It is maddening for the listeners to hear the same thing - and centering ont he same guys, I am sure they would like them to spread the interest a little - get a clue - cover every athlete on both teams - talk to the trainer, talk to the guy on the bench, that story is interesting,
same thing over and over is boring - even the guys you are covering think so.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Every college team in America who have asperations for a title should be taking notes from Fresno State right now. They basically applied the Oregon State formula in winning. Great defense, timely hitting, and gutsy pitching performances. It isn't about what your numbers or rankings look like in the regular season. It is about when did your team start playing like a team and when did they get hot.
I'd say most importantly it was about believing in yourself.
Congrats to both teams for tremendous accomplishments but especially to Fresno State for believing in themselves.
quote:Commentary was horrible, am I the only one who thinks so - Geeeez get the roster straight, and stop repeating the same story over and over, there are guys on the team that you could cover and mix things up. It is maddening for the listeners to hear the same thing - and centering ont he same guys, I am sure they would like them to spread the interest a little - get a clue - cover every athlete on both teams - talk to the trainer, talk to the guy on the bench, that story is interesting,
same thing over and over is boring - even the guys you are covering think so.
It goes something like this:
Gordan Beckam is a great shortstop.
Beckam is an All-American.
Beckam was the foundation on which they built this team.
Beckam has the best hairdo at the college world series.... repeat every few innings...
The other team better be afraid of going into the late innings trailing in the game because the great Joshua Fields will come in and close the door. He was a second round draft choice last year but came back to win the title. Joshua Fields can throw really hard and everyone except Stanford is afraid of him.... repeat every few innings...
Back to Beckam.....
Back to Fields.....
Oh, Rich Poyntress had a few hits.
They ought to be ashamed of their coverage. They did a nice job on the Eric Wetzel story and his Mom but they kept repeating that story line as well.
I liked Barry Larkin's laid-back analysis and style. Anybody but Mike Patrick repeating the same cliche's over and over again is an improvement.
I did tell JBB that he would play two teams that would show panic when they were down, I have seen it myself. Not used to losing.
But I don't think it was entitlement mentality. Sacred puppies or not, they made it to the championship series.
I didn't see any sense of conference entitlement either, nor did I get that impression when I was
there a few years ago when the ACC had big representation.
Unfortunetly hype can hurt outcomes.
It's very difficult coming into Omaha being ranked #1 seed, conference champs and expected to win. It's very difficult being the loser twice in two years and being expected to win it all from experience. It's very tough coming in as national champions and winning it again. It puts a lot of pressure on the coaches, who place a lot of pressure on the players. Teams that slipped into the top seed spots did so because they won and deserved to go, but all team situations are different and some are more relaxed which means that they play looser. Loose teams win ball games.
That's just how it is and we see it all of the time, not just in Omaha. Not just in baseball. Remember the superbowl? I really felt for UNC and those kids, lots of pressure, I think that they conducted themselves with class. So did Georgia. How difficult it must be to sit around for 5 days and lose your momentum.
Every team has different dynamics going on, every team will play and approach the game differently. Fresno did a great job and deserved the title, but again none of those other 7 teams were losers, IMO. No one really loses in Omaha but only one team wins the championship.
These are just kids, and unfortunetly sometimes some get caught up in a situation where the expectations and pressure becomes bigger than the game they are playing. The commentary was horrible but after 2 weeks what was there left to say. Unfortunetly we begin to resent continuous chatter, but that's not the kids or teams faults.
But I don't think it was entitlement mentality. Sacred puppies or not, they made it to the championship series.
I didn't see any sense of conference entitlement either, nor did I get that impression when I was
there a few years ago when the ACC had big representation.
Unfortunetly hype can hurt outcomes.
It's very difficult coming into Omaha being ranked #1 seed, conference champs and expected to win. It's very difficult being the loser twice in two years and being expected to win it all from experience. It's very tough coming in as national champions and winning it again. It puts a lot of pressure on the coaches, who place a lot of pressure on the players. Teams that slipped into the top seed spots did so because they won and deserved to go, but all team situations are different and some are more relaxed which means that they play looser. Loose teams win ball games.
That's just how it is and we see it all of the time, not just in Omaha. Not just in baseball. Remember the superbowl? I really felt for UNC and those kids, lots of pressure, I think that they conducted themselves with class. So did Georgia. How difficult it must be to sit around for 5 days and lose your momentum.
Every team has different dynamics going on, every team will play and approach the game differently. Fresno did a great job and deserved the title, but again none of those other 7 teams were losers, IMO. No one really loses in Omaha but only one team wins the championship.
These are just kids, and unfortunetly sometimes some get caught up in a situation where the expectations and pressure becomes bigger than the game they are playing. The commentary was horrible but after 2 weeks what was there left to say. Unfortunetly we begin to resent continuous chatter, but that's not the kids or teams faults.
This was one of the most enjoyable CWS championship finals to watch (for me) because both teams had such great field presence and dugout decorum. Granted, a couple of the players got upset with themselves but even their reactions were relatively mild compared to some teams in the past. As a matter of fact, even tho I was cheering for Fresno (western school and all), I would have been just as pleased if Georgia had won.
Tho both teams were 'Bull Dogs', I thought the teams were pretty different all the way around. The Fresno boys I saw as "heartland" boys while I found the Georgia kids seemed to be a little more sophisticated. Those were merely my perceptions, but it didn't seem to matter because as different as they seemed to be, they played like gentlemen, acted like gentlemen, and treated their teammates and coaches with great respect. Those coaches have done a great job of teaching their players how to respect the game.
Did anybody else NOT miss some of the shennagins of players letting themselves get hit to get on base? I think there must have been fewer hit batsmen in this CWS than in any I can remember ... I loved it. Both teams played the game the way it was meant to be played. Quite enjoyable.
Tho both teams were 'Bull Dogs', I thought the teams were pretty different all the way around. The Fresno boys I saw as "heartland" boys while I found the Georgia kids seemed to be a little more sophisticated. Those were merely my perceptions, but it didn't seem to matter because as different as they seemed to be, they played like gentlemen, acted like gentlemen, and treated their teammates and coaches with great respect. Those coaches have done a great job of teaching their players how to respect the game.
Did anybody else NOT miss some of the shennagins of players letting themselves get hit to get on base? I think there must have been fewer hit batsmen in this CWS than in any I can remember ... I loved it. Both teams played the game the way it was meant to be played. Quite enjoyable.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
Great job by Fresno. Having seen Georgia twice last week, I thought they would win. Fresno was better as they controlled most innings of all 3 games.
Homerun04's son got a pinch hit single in the 9th for Fresno. Pretty special.
All the talk about Fresno being a 4-seed and Cinderella...certainly they are Cinderella but they were only a 4-seed because the seeding was messed up. They should've been a 2 or 3.
Great job nonetheless. Having spent some time in that city/town...I can tell you, for sure, that this is very, very special. It will be a GREAT homecoming for that team.
Thanks JBB, I was so hopping for a Stanford - Fresno matchups of the un-seeded West Coast Teams. I so thought it was going to happen you guys had a great run.
As you experienced, it is a truely special event to attend, I am just sorry we had not gone efore now. We met a lot of individuals that attend every year even if they do not have players who are participating.
quote:Originally posted by iheartbb:
Listen,
If you are an aspiring commenntator, then do your job. Do some interviews outside the box. MAKE IT INTERESTING!!!! YOU DO NOT HOLD OUR ATTENTION BY REPEATING YOURSELF -----DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU HAVE BEEN THERE FOR TWO WEEKS. DO YOUR JOB. INVESTIGATE!!!!! FIND NEW STORIES AND LINK THEM TO EXISTING ONES.
Why is this something I should be telling a crew from ESPN that are paid professionals? If this National Championship is worth covering, then do it with the greatest effort you can, or just let some locals do it. Find something of interest ot cover!!!!! IT IS YOUR JOB!!!. HANGING OUT IN THE DUGOUT REHASHING THE SAME STUFF OVER AND OVER WAS ENOUGH TO FORCE ME TO TURN OFF THE TV SOUND AND TURN UP THE COMMENTARY ON MY SON'S SUMMER COLLEGIATE GAME - WHICH IS QUITE RAW, BUT NONE THE LESS, NEW INFO AS OPPOSED TO THE DAZED AND CONFUSED DUO WE ARE ALL FORCED TO LISTEN TO - THE ROOKIES WERE BETTER. For all of us listening, we would like those who commentate to really care about what they are talking about especially in the championship game. Share the love on both sides - we want to hear everthing about every player on the roster! They are all going down in history, why not talk about them!!
I agree about the commentary. However, these guys don't really have time to interview players, because most are not given the time to do it. Some coaches are pretty adament about their players not talking freely to the press that's after them, and control their interviews. The reason being is that all the hype and hoopla can get in the way of the reason for being there. I remember in Omaha, Dave's teammate was a 13th pick, one of the highest at the time, everyone wanted to interview him, the coach wouldn't allow it. His reasoning, he didn't want any egos to get in the way. Some allow press interviews for the paper, which is awesome, everyday there are some new articles in the paper about teams, players, etc.
I do beleive that the only info ESPN may have to go by is that given to them by the school's SID, the rest they try to find on their own, high draft picks playing always being a big story in Omaha.
As far as the emotions coming from the dugout, it's not all because of a loss. This is a time when reality hits that the season has ended and for many that means the end of their college careers and leaving those whohave been like your family for years. These guys go through a lot to get there, it's a reality check for many. I am sure many of your son's have experienced those emotions regardless of where or how it ended. It's a tough time for many of them.
Maybe those emotions get misunderstood as sore losers or cry babies.
Homerun04, way to go and congrats to your son's team.
I do beleive that the only info ESPN may have to go by is that given to them by the school's SID, the rest they try to find on their own, high draft picks playing always being a big story in Omaha.
As far as the emotions coming from the dugout, it's not all because of a loss. This is a time when reality hits that the season has ended and for many that means the end of their college careers and leaving those whohave been like your family for years. These guys go through a lot to get there, it's a reality check for many. I am sure many of your son's have experienced those emotions regardless of where or how it ended. It's a tough time for many of them.
Maybe those emotions get misunderstood as sore losers or cry babies.
Homerun04, way to go and congrats to your son's team.
Fresno State finishes with a #51 RPI. I wonder what it was before they were seeded 4 in their regional, in the 70's perhaps. A lesson for the mid majors out there. Anything is possible. 
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
Fresno State finishes with a #51 RPI. I wonder what it was before they were seeded 4 in their regional, in the 70's perhaps. A lesson for the mid majors out there. Anything is possible.
I believe it was in the 70's. One lesson for the mid-majors out there is if your RPI is as high as Fresno's was, you better win your conference tournament like Fresno did or you won't even get a chance to be Cinderella.
The true lesson is that a cohesive TEAM (who believes in itself - agree with Roger Tomas on that point) can beat the nationally ranked recruiting rosters. Fresno disposed of Long Beach State, San Diego, ASU, North Carolina, Rice, and Georgia. Hope I didn't forget anyone
Absolutely you have to play as a team who believes that they can play against and beat nationally ranked teams. And a great example of stepping up when one of the best pitchers in the country goes down. That is what it is all about, IMO.
Is Fresno considered a mid major D1.
This is a great story, but are we assuming other teams didn't play as a team also and didn't beleive in themselves?
Justbaseball did make a comment that they actually should have been a higher seed.
Not sure of the remarks about Beckham and Fields, not their faults the announcers had nothing else to talk about.
BTW, I think that Josh Fields is a great story. Drafted high to come back to help his team get to Omaha. Then drafted high again. We may understand it as trying to get more $$, that's not his style, so the word is. He may seem a bit uppity to some, but as I posted before, he has a very quiet demeanor, doesn't talk much, very strict in his beliefs and interacts differently with people.
Is Fresno considered a mid major D1.
This is a great story, but are we assuming other teams didn't play as a team also and didn't beleive in themselves?
Justbaseball did make a comment that they actually should have been a higher seed.
Not sure of the remarks about Beckham and Fields, not their faults the announcers had nothing else to talk about.
BTW, I think that Josh Fields is a great story. Drafted high to come back to help his team get to Omaha. Then drafted high again. We may understand it as trying to get more $$, that's not his style, so the word is. He may seem a bit uppity to some, but as I posted before, he has a very quiet demeanor, doesn't talk much, very strict in his beliefs and interacts differently with people.
quote:Is Fresno considered a mid major D1.
It is a subjective call. Their last 6 ending RPI's in descending order were 91, 35, 167, 76, 69, and 70. Their conference is ranked 13th in RPI. Looks like a mid to me, but I don't consider that a bad thing.
quote:Fresno disposed of Long Beach State, San Diego, ASU, North Carolina, Rice, and Georgia. Hope I didn't forget anyone
I would have to say that Fresno had the toughest road to the Championship.
And came out on top.
They truely earned this Championship.
EH
I never considered Fresno St. a mid-major. Not 10 years ago, not today. But maybe thats my California bias?
They get good players (some of the best actually) from our area every year. They draw good crowds to a big college stadium. They have a strong fan base. To me, their program is just a tick below Fullerton and Long Beach...but certainly above mid-major.
(BTW, did you know they were missing their best pitcher through all of this? Tanner Scheppers).
RPIs are a mess. Have been ever since I've watched them. Maybe if the NCAA would pay less attention to them they would get the seeding more correct.
Fresno is most certainly a Cinderella champion. But they are legit, no doubt. USD, Long Beach State, ASU, Rice, UNC and Georgia is quite a track record and perhaps no national champion in some time is more deserving. What a great story!
They get good players (some of the best actually) from our area every year. They draw good crowds to a big college stadium. They have a strong fan base. To me, their program is just a tick below Fullerton and Long Beach...but certainly above mid-major.
(BTW, did you know they were missing their best pitcher through all of this? Tanner Scheppers).
RPIs are a mess. Have been ever since I've watched them. Maybe if the NCAA would pay less attention to them they would get the seeding more correct.
Fresno is most certainly a Cinderella champion. But they are legit, no doubt. USD, Long Beach State, ASU, Rice, UNC and Georgia is quite a track record and perhaps no national champion in some time is more deserving. What a great story!
Looking at the Georgia Bulldogs record was it not a battle between two Cinderellas for who got the Glass Slipper
Had to love the Fresno kid who when asked about the Cinderella aspect simplly said--We are not Cinderella. We are Fresno State
Had to love the Fresno kid who when asked about the Cinderella aspect simplly said--We are not Cinderella. We are Fresno State
It is amazing to me that somehow Fresno St. managed to outdo the cindarella stories of OSU the last two years. That was so much fun to watch!
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
I never considered Fresno St. a mid-major. Not 10 years ago, not today. But maybe thats my California bias?
They get good players (some of the best actually) from our area every year. They draw good crowds to a big college stadium. They have a strong fan base. To me, their program is just a tick below Fullerton and Long Beach...but certainly above mid-major.
(BTW, did you know they were missing their best pitcher through all of this? Tanner Scheppers).
RPIs are a mess. Have been ever since I've watched them. Maybe if the NCAA would pay less attention to them they would get the seeding more correct.
Fresno is most certainly a Cinderella champion. But they are legit, no doubt. USD, Long Beach State, ASU, Rice, UNC and Georgia is quite a track record and perhaps no national champion in some time is more deserving. What a great story!
justbb - I just used your post to start a discussion - I am not critiquing what you have to say in any way.
Curious what people really think. Do some think the RPI system stinks? Lets look at it...
RPI
1 0.648 53 11 53 11 Miami, Florida
2 0.643 54 14 54 14 North Carolina
3 0.634 54 14 54 14 Florida State
4 0.626 47 15 47 15 Rice
8 0.606 49 19 49 19 Louisiana State
9 0.601 41 24 41 24 Stanford
11 0.600 45 25 45 25 Georgia
No. 51 is Fresno.
The only real aberation there is Fresno, otherwise it looks like the RPI system was a pretty good predictor of the Omaha teams.
Do people think the West is superior? In 2005 Texas won. Are they from the East or the West? In 2006 and 2007 it was Oregon State and in 2008 it was Fresno State. Does this trend prove the West Coast teams are superior? Using that logic, would we conclude UC Davis, for example, is more talented than Stanford since they took 3 of 4 from them this year?
I don't recall one reporter or poster on the hsbbweb saying that Frsno State was under-seeded before the tournament started. In hindsight, they obviously were. I think some of the beef might be with the SEC placing 9 teams. Is it fair to say some of the hard feelings are about the at-large bids being skewed toward the East (or at least perceived that way). Is it even fair to say that? These are just questions for discussion. Lets have fun with it and see where the logical arguments take us
Don't know if I posted it or not...but I most definitely thought Fresno was under-seeded from the very start. Everyone I know out here thought so. Early rumors were that they'd be the #4 in our region and that worried us all an awful lot! Thought UC Davis was under-seeded too and they gave us quite a scare.
UC Davis might have been better than Stanford? They certainly matched up very well against us. They beat us 3 of 4 and had us on the ropes in the regional until the 9th inning of Game 2. I would say they should've been a 3-seed...but even a very strong 3-seed at that.
I am not going to re-start the East/West debate. I will just say that the NCAA ignores or under-seeds some really solid West teams every year in memory. Then everyone acts surprised when the West wins it. We play harder schedules out here (likely due to fewer weak teams nearby) and thus take more losses...beat each other up. But it serves West teams well in the playoffs as they have already played in many pressure-packed, competitive, close games. They're used to being behind and fighting back (see Fresno State demeanor when behind GA 5-0 in Game 2). Its probably just a function of geography and schedule-able games more than anything else. Our pre-season series were Nebraska, Fullerton and Texas. Doesn't get much better than that. Our conference had no "gimme's." It just is what it is.
On RPIs, looking at the relative 1-8 of the CWS teams...I would say it was upside down (more or less...exception UNC?), wouldn't you? Don't the results say that? But my main complaint about the RPIs is that they penalize teams like Santa Clara (#68 RPI, a mid-major for sure but with a very hard schedule and good results), UCSB and perhaps this year Oregon State (#60 RPI and thats a joke! Saw them in 3 games and they were as tough as any 2-seed in any regional out there).
JMO, nothing more.
UC Davis might have been better than Stanford? They certainly matched up very well against us. They beat us 3 of 4 and had us on the ropes in the regional until the 9th inning of Game 2. I would say they should've been a 3-seed...but even a very strong 3-seed at that.
I am not going to re-start the East/West debate. I will just say that the NCAA ignores or under-seeds some really solid West teams every year in memory. Then everyone acts surprised when the West wins it. We play harder schedules out here (likely due to fewer weak teams nearby) and thus take more losses...beat each other up. But it serves West teams well in the playoffs as they have already played in many pressure-packed, competitive, close games. They're used to being behind and fighting back (see Fresno State demeanor when behind GA 5-0 in Game 2). Its probably just a function of geography and schedule-able games more than anything else. Our pre-season series were Nebraska, Fullerton and Texas. Doesn't get much better than that. Our conference had no "gimme's." It just is what it is.
On RPIs, looking at the relative 1-8 of the CWS teams...I would say it was upside down (more or less...exception UNC?), wouldn't you? Don't the results say that? But my main complaint about the RPIs is that they penalize teams like Santa Clara (#68 RPI, a mid-major for sure but with a very hard schedule and good results), UCSB and perhaps this year Oregon State (#60 RPI and thats a joke! Saw them in 3 games and they were as tough as any 2-seed in any regional out there).
JMO, nothing more.
RPI is misleading. The degree of seperation is not proportionate to the position. Tiger woods is ranked #1 in the world but there is a huge gap in his ranking score and #2, with everybody else bunched up, way below him.
#51 is competitive with everybody, as they proved. If Fresno is commonly percieved as a major program on the west coast, then it is what it is.
It is such a momentum game. The intangibles leading to success are what makes your skin tingle, kids dogpile and drives coaches crazy trying to figure out.
#51 is competitive with everybody, as they proved. If Fresno is commonly percieved as a major program on the west coast, then it is what it is.
It is such a momentum game. The intangibles leading to success are what makes your skin tingle, kids dogpile and drives coaches crazy trying to figure out.
Where does this Tiger Woods play?
How does a golfer compare to a baseball team?
How does a golfer compare to a baseball team?
quote:It is such a momentum game. The intangibles leading to success are what makes your skin tingle, kids dogpile and drives coaches crazy trying to figure out.
Great point.
Perhaps we can all find our Santa Clara's out there. I looked at their schedule and yes there are some big boys on it but some other parts of their schedule leaves something to be desired imho. Hard to determine things on paper however
Never forget that winning must be factored in regardless of the schedule. I can point to College of Charleston on this coast who none of you have seen play. You would not want to see those guys show up in your regional bracket just like we probably all would be shaking our heads if we saw Santa Clara play in one of our brackets. The answer for Santa Clara is to win more games. That will raise their RPI and put them in line for an at-large bid given their tough schedule.
I admit I know virtually nothing about College of Charleston other than they have a reputation as a very good baseball program...even out here.
But...
Strength of Schedule:
Santa Clara - 17
College of Charleston - 137
RPI:
College of Charleston - 52
Santa Clara - 68
Losses:
College of Charleston - 20
Santa Clara - 22
Hard for me to reconcile all of this.
But...
Strength of Schedule:
Santa Clara - 17
College of Charleston - 137
RPI:
College of Charleston - 52
Santa Clara - 68
Losses:
College of Charleston - 20
Santa Clara - 22
Hard for me to reconcile all of this.
Youre right you don't know much about C of C. 9 players drafted. It is a fantastic college and wins their cof. regularly.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
I admit I know virtually nothing about College of Charleston other than they have a reputation as a very good baseball program...even out here.
But...
Strength of Schedule:
Santa Clara - 17
College of Charleston - 137
Excellent point and that is why I started the discussion. I still believe winning will set you free. If a school's main argument is SoS, then that is a loser most of the time imho - especially if you come out on the short end of the stick in many of those alledgedly "tougher" games.
Automatic Bids are another way for some of these smaller programs to take the decison-making away from the NCAA committee. Fresno State has indeed showed one possible way. Go out and win your way to a championship and leave all the excuses behind.
CD,
I think most of us accept that the conference tourney winner, whether it be Columbia in the Ivy League or LSU in the SEC gets a berth. It is that way in all levels of NCAA baseball and it isn't going to change.
Where the real issues arise, in my view, is when the NCAA repeatedly takes the 6-9 teams in the SEC, 5-8 in the ACC, 5-8 in the Big 12, at the expense of the #3-4 in the Big West, the number 5-6 in the Pac 10, and the #3-4 in the WCC.
In the Stanford regional, there was not much that much difference in Stanford, Pepperdine and UC Davis in the way they played.
The one team that did not have a chance to win that regional was the #9 SEC team, Arkansas, and they received a #3 seed ahead of Davis. Good team but no chance to compete in that regional, and not competitive with Davis.
Oklahoma being selected out of the Big 12 was laughable and that gets reinforced when you see how that conference performed in the post season.
Most everyone is now seeing/agreeing there is increasing parity in baseball, except, it seems, when the post season at large selections are made every year.
So I really see this as an issue whether the #5-9 teams in the SEC/ACC and Big 12 continue to deserve post season opportunities when it comes at the expense of programs like the College of Charleston, Santa Clara, and some others. Personally, I think we will have the same discussion in 2009, 2010, because the SEC/ACC etc will always wield much more influence. It is fun to discuss and debate, though.
I think most of us accept that the conference tourney winner, whether it be Columbia in the Ivy League or LSU in the SEC gets a berth. It is that way in all levels of NCAA baseball and it isn't going to change.
Where the real issues arise, in my view, is when the NCAA repeatedly takes the 6-9 teams in the SEC, 5-8 in the ACC, 5-8 in the Big 12, at the expense of the #3-4 in the Big West, the number 5-6 in the Pac 10, and the #3-4 in the WCC.
In the Stanford regional, there was not much that much difference in Stanford, Pepperdine and UC Davis in the way they played.
The one team that did not have a chance to win that regional was the #9 SEC team, Arkansas, and they received a #3 seed ahead of Davis. Good team but no chance to compete in that regional, and not competitive with Davis.
Oklahoma being selected out of the Big 12 was laughable and that gets reinforced when you see how that conference performed in the post season.
Most everyone is now seeing/agreeing there is increasing parity in baseball, except, it seems, when the post season at large selections are made every year.
So I really see this as an issue whether the #5-9 teams in the SEC/ACC and Big 12 continue to deserve post season opportunities when it comes at the expense of programs like the College of Charleston, Santa Clara, and some others. Personally, I think we will have the same discussion in 2009, 2010, because the SEC/ACC etc will always wield much more influence. It is fun to discuss and debate, though.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Youre right you don't know much about C of C. 9 players drafted. It is a fantastic college and wins their cof. regularly.
Re-read my entire post in which I said:
quote:...other than they have a reputation as a very good baseball program...even out here.
I think infielddad has nailed the crux of the problem from my perspective. I can only compare teams I've seen in person but Santa Clara, Oregon State and even Washington were all better than Arkansas. UC Davis was much better than them too, yet seeded lower. It wasn't that close.
BTW, I thought the best team I saw in person this year was Georgia. I thought they'd win it, but I hadn't seen Fresno State and while I thought they were very good too, I underestimated them myself.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
Where the real issues arise, in my view, is when the NCAA repeatedly takes the 6-9 teams in the SEC, 5-8 in the ACC, 5-8 in the Big 12, at the expense of the #3-4 in the Big West, the number 5-6 in the Pac 10, and the #3-4 in the WCC.
Great points! This is where I suspected the beef was. It is really hard to argue stats however. I would love to see Santa Clara play but for obvious reasons cannot. Interesting in basketball, most of us can see many programs play on both coasts via television. Perhaps if this sport were to grow on television, it might not be as easy to justify some of these decisions.
It seems UC Davis has transitioned well to D1. The Cajuns played them in Hawaii 2005, the year they moved up from D2.
Dad04 - I think their coach (Rex Peters) has really done a very nice job. He is well respected by HS coaches in Northern California and has recruited players that other schools may have overlooked...and coached them into better players.
UC Davis is a good academic school in a tough conference. Nice college town. Decent facilities. Pretty committed following (at least when they play Stanford!).
I have no idea how committed he is long-term to that program...and I would call them a "mid-major" for now. If I were a "major," he's a guy I'd sure be interested in interviewing. But I hope he stays...he's done a nice job.
UC Davis is a good academic school in a tough conference. Nice college town. Decent facilities. Pretty committed following (at least when they play Stanford!
).I have no idea how committed he is long-term to that program...and I would call them a "mid-major" for now. If I were a "major," he's a guy I'd sure be interested in interviewing. But I hope he stays...he's done a nice job.
To support justbb(like he needs it from me 
)
Coach Peters was hired in 2003 from DIII power Chapman in Southern CA, where he had great success.
He took over from a coaching legend that bbscout loved.
He does not have the best athletes. However, his teams execute and they play the game fundamentally well and he has very good players.
On top of that, Peters seemed to be a wonderful game coach with use of the hit and run, squeeze and constantly putting pressure on a defense to make plays.
Finally, while I am not close enough to truly know, my impression of the Davis program(like Fresno St) is that Coach Peters coaches in a way that gets the most out of his players, but his players seem committed, fearless and give their heart 100% on each and every play, in each and every game.
Coach Peters was hired in 2003 from DIII power Chapman in Southern CA, where he had great success.
He took over from a coaching legend that bbscout loved.
He does not have the best athletes. However, his teams execute and they play the game fundamentally well and he has very good players.
On top of that, Peters seemed to be a wonderful game coach with use of the hit and run, squeeze and constantly putting pressure on a defense to make plays.
Finally, while I am not close enough to truly know, my impression of the Davis program(like Fresno St) is that Coach Peters coaches in a way that gets the most out of his players, but his players seem committed, fearless and give their heart 100% on each and every play, in each and every game.
ClevelandDad said:
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IMHO the answer is California will always have better overall team representation from its schools in the CWS tournament. For me the Georgia team pretty much is a single team, though groomed from the outset from East Cobb tournaments represents a very small populated state in comparison to California. For my way of thinking Georgia was the Cinderella team because if had to play in the west I don't think it would have made to the CWS at all. A greeat team doesn't get skunked 19-10.
California and the West is always discounted in equality against the East and Southeast schools. It just part of the culture there. To settle this once and for all we need to have cross country tournaments to qualify for the regionals then you would truely get the best teams competing for the CWS championship just as they do with the basketball finals. Bet the small schools from the SEC wouldn't get as far as they have been in the past.
JMO
quote:Do people think the West is superior? In 2005 Texas won. Are they from the East or the West? In 2006 and 2007 it was Oregon State and in 2008 it was Fresno State. Does this trend prove the West Coast teams are superior? Using that logic, would we conclude UC Davis, for example, is more talented than Stanford since they took 3 of 4 from them this year?
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IMHO the answer is California will always have better overall team representation from its schools in the CWS tournament. For me the Georgia team pretty much is a single team, though groomed from the outset from East Cobb tournaments represents a very small populated state in comparison to California. For my way of thinking Georgia was the Cinderella team because if had to play in the west I don't think it would have made to the CWS at all. A greeat team doesn't get skunked 19-10.
California and the West is always discounted in equality against the East and Southeast schools. It just part of the culture there. To settle this once and for all we need to have cross country tournaments to qualify for the regionals then you would truely get the best teams competing for the CWS championship just as they do with the basketball finals. Bet the small schools from the SEC wouldn't get as far as they have been in the past.
JMO
Georgia dominated this year, they played competatively. The 5 day lay off hurt them.
It would be interesting to see more east/west during season.
One of the toughest teams Clemson ever played, neither east or west, **** Roberts. TOUGH AS NAILS.
It would be interesting to see more east/west during season.
One of the toughest teams Clemson ever played, neither east or west, **** Roberts. TOUGH AS NAILS.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
. The 5 day lay off hurt them.
Since Georgia won game 1, in very dramatic fashion, I don't understand how those days off play into the result. Your thoughts??
"A great team doesn't get skunked 19-10."
Don't really care one way or another-a bulldog is a bulldog-
but my experience is that getting skunked means being shutout. Could be wrong. At any rate, I don't necessarily agree that a great team can't get beaten by a large margin every now and then. 12-4, 15-1, 11-1, 14-4. FSU-West scores this year. They're still a pretty darn good team IMO.
Don't really care one way or another-a bulldog is a bulldog-
but my experience is that getting skunked means being shutout. Could be wrong. At any rate, I don't necessarily agree that a great team can't get beaten by a large margin every now and then. 12-4, 15-1, 11-1, 14-4. FSU-West scores this year. They're still a pretty darn good team IMO.
I've been waiting on the east/west fireworks to begin. Bottomline, people have opinions about "their" conference or local because it's theirs! They see more games from local areas or where son plays, etc. Regardless of what east coaster or west coaster says, they can't be completely unbiased towards any team. It's similar in asking any parent on this board about their child - they're not going to see that kid the same way another set of eyes will.
Georgia is a great ball team. I've seen them play several times during the season - however, I realize I have a SEC bias. It's what I've grown up cheering for. Obviously Fresno State was a better ball team this week - for several reasons IMO. I'm not sure that I'd even ever heard of Fresno State. I bet folks in CA had.
The arguments regarding west/east, north/south, are really meaningless IMO. There's GREAT ball everywhere and no one state, no one conference, no one region has a lock on that.
Georgia is a great ball team. I've seen them play several times during the season - however, I realize I have a SEC bias. It's what I've grown up cheering for. Obviously Fresno State was a better ball team this week - for several reasons IMO. I'm not sure that I'd even ever heard of Fresno State. I bet folks in CA had.
The arguments regarding west/east, north/south, are really meaningless IMO. There's GREAT ball everywhere and no one state, no one conference, no one region has a lock on that.
How can anyone say that Georgia dominated this year when they went 45-25-1 in regular season. The fact is regardless of who won last nite the champion would have had more losses than any team to win in the history of the CWS, not that Fresno state cares.
As for the layoff---it should have worked to their advantage as they had a rested pitching staff and the Fresno came into the final beat to a pulp
I think it was two evenly matched teams playing and the Fresno kids just were on a roll and wanted it more
As for the layoff---it should have worked to their advantage as they had a rested pitching staff and the Fresno came into the final beat to a pulp
I think it was two evenly matched teams playing and the Fresno kids just were on a roll and wanted it more
Fireworks are fun! (As long as no one takes it personally ).
Never heard of Fresno before? Augie Garrido played and coached there. His number is retired and hanging on the outfield wall.
Georgia was the best team I saw in person this year...at the time I saw them. And yes, I most definitely have a West bias, but that impression is not hard for me to admit.
Georgia was better than ASU, Fullerton, Texas, Nebraska, Cal, Arizona, Florida State, Miami and yes, Stanford (see our coaches comments after our 2nd game...he said the same). I never saw Fresno in person...but they obviously were the very best team at the end of the year!
West Coast college baseball deserves better respect from the NCAA when they select and seed the field...that is the only thing I am saying. We're used to it, it happens every year...but we have all been robbed of seeing some really good players on a national stage during college because of it (most recent prime example was Tim Lincecum from U. Washington).
Everyone talks of Fresno being the biggest upset ever...not IMO. They were an upset winner, yes, but not the biggest and the perception is only there because they were under-seeded to begin with. Seriously, can anyone say (with a straight face) that they were at the same level as nearly all of the other 4-seeds? IMO, they embarrassed the work of the NCAA selection/seeding.
I think this stuff is fun to debate. Just 2 nights ago I sat at a BlackJack table in Reno and debated SE football vs. West Coast football with an LSU alum. Fun stuff!
).Never heard of Fresno before? Augie Garrido played and coached there. His number is retired and hanging on the outfield wall.
Georgia was the best team I saw in person this year...at the time I saw them. And yes, I most definitely have a West bias, but that impression is not hard for me to admit.
Georgia was better than ASU, Fullerton, Texas, Nebraska, Cal, Arizona, Florida State, Miami and yes, Stanford (see our coaches comments after our 2nd game...he said the same). I never saw Fresno in person...but they obviously were the very best team at the end of the year!
West Coast college baseball deserves better respect from the NCAA when they select and seed the field...that is the only thing I am saying. We're used to it, it happens every year...but we have all been robbed of seeing some really good players on a national stage during college because of it (most recent prime example was Tim Lincecum from U. Washington).
Everyone talks of Fresno being the biggest upset ever...not IMO. They were an upset winner, yes, but not the biggest and the perception is only there because they were under-seeded to begin with. Seriously, can anyone say (with a straight face) that they were at the same level as nearly all of the other 4-seeds? IMO, they embarrassed the work of the NCAA selection/seeding.
I think this stuff is fun to debate. Just 2 nights ago I sat at a BlackJack table in Reno and debated SE football vs. West Coast football with an LSU alum. Fun stuff!
lafmom,
I actually don't see this as a West-East issue.
Certainly, I don't think many West Coasters are going to try and run down UNC, Miami, Florida St. LSU, etc. I don't think any East coasters will run down Fullerton, ASU, U of A, Stanford, etc.
As I posted before, my view is there is parity in college ball that is being missed in the NCAA selection process so that the 6-9 teams in the SEC...as an illustration only, are being chosen over the 2-4 seeds in the WCC and Big West on this side of the US, the Missouri Valley and MAC in the more Central locations, and the Big South and Southern Conference in the...well, the South.
There is little doubt in my mind the 8 teams in Omaha were very, very, very good. The quality of the play and closeness of the games is clear evidence.
I am not convinced, and in fact have strong feelings the bottom tier teams in the power conferences get too much at the expense of better teams in the non power conferences.
That is where I think CD is precisely correct. Teams in conferences like the WAC(Fresno St) have to win their tournament or they are not going to post season play, at the expense of the #9 or even #10 in the SEC.
I actually don't see this as a West-East issue.
Certainly, I don't think many West Coasters are going to try and run down UNC, Miami, Florida St. LSU, etc. I don't think any East coasters will run down Fullerton, ASU, U of A, Stanford, etc.
As I posted before, my view is there is parity in college ball that is being missed in the NCAA selection process so that the 6-9 teams in the SEC...as an illustration only, are being chosen over the 2-4 seeds in the WCC and Big West on this side of the US, the Missouri Valley and MAC in the more Central locations, and the Big South and Southern Conference in the...well, the South.
There is little doubt in my mind the 8 teams in Omaha were very, very, very good. The quality of the play and closeness of the games is clear evidence.
I am not convinced, and in fact have strong feelings the bottom tier teams in the power conferences get too much at the expense of better teams in the non power conferences.
That is where I think CD is precisely correct. Teams in conferences like the WAC(Fresno St) have to win their tournament or they are not going to post season play, at the expense of the #9 or even #10 in the SEC.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
Fireworks are fun! (As long as no one takes it personally
Never heard of Fresno before? Augie Garrido played and coached there. His number is retired and hanging on the outfield wall.
I think this stuff is fun to debate. Just 2 nights ago I sat at a BlackJack table in Reno and debated SE football vs. West Coast football with an LSU alum. Fun stuff!
I saw Garrido in the stands and I think they even interviewed him. Even though I'm well aware of his career, I had no idea he went to Fresno State until watching the games. As I said, FSU was a no name school for me. That might well be my ignorance, but it is what it is.
I can truly support any football team anywhere! So, those conversations wouldn't get me riled.
Now, when you go to putting basketball into the equation..... wanna see some fireworks!!! Step back!!
Moc1 said:
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Moc1 maybe your point is correct but in the given three game matchup we all just watched, Georgia was overmatched...squeaked by in the first game on a fluke bounce of the ball off the second base bag to go ahead.
The dominating teams are from the west...just look at the record. USC has won the most CWS and second isn't even close.
http://thesundevils.cstv.com/sports/m-basebl/spec-rel/061202aaa.html
I don't disrespect the Georgia team, no doubt they have some very good ballplayers, it's just their frame of reference to competition is parochial in comparison to the overall competition the California teams go through just to get to the regionals.
JMO
quote:Don't really care one way or another-a bulldog is a bulldog- but my experience is that getting skunked means being shutout. Could be wrong. At any rate, I don't necessarily agree that a great team can't get beaten by a large margin every now and then. 12-4, 15-1, 11-1, 14-4. FSU-West scores this year. They're still a pretty darn good team IMO.
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Moc1 maybe your point is correct but in the given three game matchup we all just watched, Georgia was overmatched...squeaked by in the first game on a fluke bounce of the ball off the second base bag to go ahead.
The dominating teams are from the west...just look at the record. USC has won the most CWS and second isn't even close.
http://thesundevils.cstv.com/sports/m-basebl/spec-rel/061202aaa.html
I don't disrespect the Georgia team, no doubt they have some very good ballplayers, it's just their frame of reference to competition is parochial in comparison to the overall competition the California teams go through just to get to the regionals.
JMO
quote:Certainly, I don't think many West Coasters are going to try and run down UNC, Miami, Florida St. LSU, etc.
Good thing I said "many" so I could give LL some room to wedge in with his view.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
Dad04 - I think their coach (Rex Peters) has really done a very nice job. He is well respected by HS coaches in Northern California and has recruited players that other schools may have overlooked...and coached them into better players.
UC Davis is a good academic school in a tough conference. Nice college town. Decent facilities. Pretty committed following (at least when they play Stanford!
I have no idea how committed he is long-term to that program...and I would call them a "mid-major" for now. If I were a "major," he's a guy I'd sure be interested in interviewing. But I hope he stays...he's done a nice job.
jbb I remember listening to Coach Peters on the pregame in Hawaii. It was Jr's 2nd college start and 1st win, so the game was memorable. He was very humble, just hoping to compete with a young club. I later found out he was successful as soon as he got there, and still is. He just competes. I expect he will continue, there or elsewhere. I'm sure he will get opportunities to consider. They had 9 draft picks this year.
quote:Now, when you go to putting basketball into the equation..... wanna see some fireworks!!! Step back!!
Are you inviting me to give my opinion of UK basketball?
Dad04 - He recruited my son a little in the beginning. At the time they were D2 and transitioning and given who else was recruiting him he wasn't too interested.
But he told me that Coach Peters was one of the warmest, kindest coaches he talked too. When our son told him that they weren't in the mix, Coach Peters talked to him for around 20 minutes on who was and about how they were such great choices. Really classy IMO.
Our younger son's HS coach thinks very highly of Coach Peters and I think his approach to the local kids has reaped him lots of success and a bright future.
But he told me that Coach Peters was one of the warmest, kindest coaches he talked too. When our son told him that they weren't in the mix, Coach Peters talked to him for around 20 minutes on who was and about how they were such great choices. Really classy IMO.
Our younger son's HS coach thinks very highly of Coach Peters and I think his approach to the local kids has reaped him lots of success and a bright future.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
. The 5 day lay off hurt them.
Since Georgia won game 1, in very dramatic fashion, I don't understand how those days off play into the result. Your thoughts??
From 6/14-6/21 they played 3 games. Stanford almost put them away. First game against Fresno, they almost lost, they certainly didn't look "refreshed". You lose momentum, you lose the edge, you lose the adrenaline.
This is often something I've seen that happens to teams during exam week, late spring, takes a while to get back up and running, practice against your team mates doesn't always work.
JMO and observation.
Infieldad said:
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IMO it just seems to me that West Coast schools never get any respect...even after such an outstanding performance by our boys from Fresno they are called "Cinderella" as though teams from California are someway inferior because they don't have that East Coast or SEC "pedigree".
I get tired of it and it isn't just with our college teams but our MLB pros and high school teams also. Then the East Coast and SEC bias by the NCAA is so evident and really overt with the sports media...they've never heard of De La Salle. A private high school out here that would kick the stuffing out of their best.
Most the teams they hold so dear are second level teams out here.
JMO
quote:Good thing I said "many" so I could give LL some room to wedge in with his view.
_______________________________________________________
IMO it just seems to me that West Coast schools never get any respect...even after such an outstanding performance by our boys from Fresno they are called "Cinderella" as though teams from California are someway inferior because they don't have that East Coast or SEC "pedigree".
I get tired of it and it isn't just with our college teams but our MLB pros and high school teams also. Then the East Coast and SEC bias by the NCAA is so evident and really overt with the sports media...they've never heard of De La Salle. A private high school out here that would kick the stuffing out of their best.
Most the teams they hold so dear are second level teams out here.
JMO
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:quote:Now, when you go to putting basketball into the equation..... wanna see some fireworks!!! Step back!!
Are you inviting me to give my opinion of UK basketball?
Nooooo, Bearcat man!! I think I already know!!
LL it seems you have a serious chip on your shoulder. All I have seen is everyone here giving Fresno State the props they deserve. The announcers make me sick with the "Glass Slipper" comments. But they think that stuff sells. They were the best team in Omaha. They earned their way to the event and then proved they were the best. West coast bias? The people that truly follow the sport and the players already know that there is great baseball from coast to coast. Its not about conference or west vs east. Its about team vs team. And Fresno proved they were the best team in the nation. And they did it on the field which is the only place that matters.
I believe we should halt all arguement's about the best conf. best coast best whatever.
It serve's no purpose on the HSBBW.
Great play all over the country.
I do believe that more teams need to get into the tournament.
My suggestion is to have Sub-Regionals.
16 site's, 8 teams.
Top 4 teams in each sub regional gets reseeded.
And placed in the Regionals.
That way there would be more team's that would have a chance.
And less arguement's about who deserve's what.
JMO
EH
It serve's no purpose on the HSBBW.
Great play all over the country.
I do believe that more teams need to get into the tournament.
My suggestion is to have Sub-Regionals.
16 site's, 8 teams.
Top 4 teams in each sub regional gets reseeded.
And placed in the Regionals.
That way there would be more team's that would have a chance.
And less arguement's about who deserve's what.
JMO
EH
Not to continue the debate but...
Surely everyone was surprised that Fresno State became the national champion. I doubt if a month ago anyone outside of Fresno would have picked Fresno State to win it all. Therefore they certainly were a Cinderella team. This is not to say they didn’t deserve to win because they did.
They were 21-25 in 46 of their “regular season” games this year against the following teams.
Portland (1-1)
UC Davis (2-2)
Indiana (2-1)
Santa Clara (0-2)
San Francisco (0-2)
San Diego (0-1)
New Mexico State (6-3)
Cal Poly (2-3)
Cal (0-2)
Nevada (4-4)
Sacramento State (2-2)
Hawaii (2-2)
Not that the above teams aren’t great competition, but who would have thought National Championship at the end of the regular season? Interesting that they beat 4 of those teams in the playoffs. Three to win their conference tournament to make the NCAA field. Fresno State does have a lot of talent but this really is a great Cinderella story IMO. In fact, it was a big Cinderella Story just making it to Omaha. There’s nothing wrong with being a Cinderella Story, those are the things that make sports great. It was fun to watch and they sure did earn it. What a TEAM! What a run!
Regarding someone not being a great team if they lose 19-10… This year the National Champion Fresno State team lost to San Diego 15-1, lost to New Mexico State 9-2, lost to Indiana 11-1, and lost to Cal 14-4. Its baseball and that stuff happens.
All that said, it does seem like the NCAA slights the west coast teams. Maybe they should look at the results over the past several years.
Surely everyone was surprised that Fresno State became the national champion. I doubt if a month ago anyone outside of Fresno would have picked Fresno State to win it all. Therefore they certainly were a Cinderella team. This is not to say they didn’t deserve to win because they did.
They were 21-25 in 46 of their “regular season” games this year against the following teams.
Portland (1-1)
UC Davis (2-2)
Indiana (2-1)
Santa Clara (0-2)
San Francisco (0-2)
San Diego (0-1)
New Mexico State (6-3)
Cal Poly (2-3)
Cal (0-2)
Nevada (4-4)
Sacramento State (2-2)
Hawaii (2-2)
Not that the above teams aren’t great competition, but who would have thought National Championship at the end of the regular season? Interesting that they beat 4 of those teams in the playoffs. Three to win their conference tournament to make the NCAA field. Fresno State does have a lot of talent but this really is a great Cinderella story IMO. In fact, it was a big Cinderella Story just making it to Omaha. There’s nothing wrong with being a Cinderella Story, those are the things that make sports great. It was fun to watch and they sure did earn it. What a TEAM! What a run!
Regarding someone not being a great team if they lose 19-10… This year the National Champion Fresno State team lost to San Diego 15-1, lost to New Mexico State 9-2, lost to Indiana 11-1, and lost to Cal 14-4. Its baseball and that stuff happens.
All that said, it does seem like the NCAA slights the west coast teams. Maybe they should look at the results over the past several years.
Coach May said:
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I guess it comes across that way but it just bothers me that we out here on the West Coacst have to listen to the sports casters insulting our boys and then they seem to think it's humorous. The Fresno "****mond Dogs" to a man said they didn't agree with that interpretation of their season.
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PGStaff said: Surely everyone was surprised that Fresno State became the national champion. I doubt if a month ago anyone outside of Fresno would have picked Fresno State to win it all. Therefore they certainly were a Cinderella team. This is not to say they didn’t deserve to win because they did.
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IMHO not everyone and certainly not the Fresno State Bulldogs. They knew that they could compete against anyone...especially after b eating the best of the PAC10 could offer. Let's face ASU was a 4 to 1 favorite to eliminate the Bulldogs.
All the record shows as you have presented for the FS Bulldogs is how tough it is to run the slate in the WCC the WAC and the PAC10. It is meaningless to conjecture that it means that the FS Bulldogs should not have been respected for their talent and the tough tough tough conferences these teams play in.
Unless you play out here you just do not understand how competitive it is at every level. That is what is missed in all the ratings of the supposed guru's expert analysis.
What the hay, last year there were 175 players trying out for 35 spots at a prominent D2 school that almost went undefeated...so go figure that.
JMO
quote:LL it seems you have a serious chip on your shoulder.
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I guess it comes across that way but it just bothers me that we out here on the West Coacst have to listen to the sports casters insulting our boys and then they seem to think it's humorous. The Fresno "****mond Dogs" to a man said they didn't agree with that interpretation of their season.
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PGStaff said: Surely everyone was surprised that Fresno State became the national champion. I doubt if a month ago anyone outside of Fresno would have picked Fresno State to win it all. Therefore they certainly were a Cinderella team. This is not to say they didn’t deserve to win because they did.
_______________________________________________________
IMHO not everyone and certainly not the Fresno State Bulldogs. They knew that they could compete against anyone...especially after b eating the best of the PAC10 could offer. Let's face ASU was a 4 to 1 favorite to eliminate the Bulldogs.
All the record shows as you have presented for the FS Bulldogs is how tough it is to run the slate in the WCC the WAC and the PAC10. It is meaningless to conjecture that it means that the FS Bulldogs should not have been respected for their talent and the tough tough tough conferences these teams play in.
Unless you play out here you just do not understand how competitive it is at every level. That is what is missed in all the ratings of the supposed guru's expert analysis.
What the hay, last year there were 175 players trying out for 35 spots at a prominent D2 school that almost went undefeated...so go figure that.
JMO
quote:There’s nothing wrong with being a Cinderella Story,
Perhaps we could rename it to account for the gender of the team:
Futureback.Mom said: Perhaps we could rename it to account for the gender of the team: Cinderella
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The connotation of "Cinderella" is that FSU didn't earn it. They lucked out. I just donot agree with either the connotatin or the meaning it represents and think it is an insult to every coach and player of the Fresno State Bulldogs.
JMO
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The connotation of "Cinderella" is that FSU didn't earn it. They lucked out. I just donot agree with either the connotatin or the meaning it represents and think it is an insult to every coach and player of the Fresno State Bulldogs.
JMO
LL,
Sometimes I think it is impossible to clearly state a point that others read clearly.
Regarding the connotation of “Cinderella” please look at the “Official” website of Fresno State.
Especially things like this….
WonderDogs Win!
06/22/2008 - For the Fresno State baseball team, most thought the team's magical run through the NCAA Tournament would end Sunday night at Johnny Rosenblatt Sta... [+]
Or this
Wonderdogs Takeout No. 2 Tar Heels
06/17/2008 - A run through the NCAA baseball tournament that most called improbable took the Fresno State baseball team one step closer to the national champion... [+]
Or especially this
No. 2 Tar Heels Edge Dogs
06/21/2008 - The Fresno State Bulldogs, the Cinderella story of this year's NCAA baseball tournament, went to the wire against the No. 2 team in the nation in a... [+]
Guess I can't understand what is so bad about being called a Cinderella Story. Evidently it doesn't bother the official site of Fresno state.
Sometimes I think it is impossible to clearly state a point that others read clearly.
Regarding the connotation of “Cinderella” please look at the “Official” website of Fresno State.
Especially things like this….
WonderDogs Win!
06/22/2008 - For the Fresno State baseball team, most thought the team's magical run through the NCAA Tournament would end Sunday night at Johnny Rosenblatt Sta... [+]
Or this
Wonderdogs Takeout No. 2 Tar Heels
06/17/2008 - A run through the NCAA baseball tournament that most called improbable took the Fresno State baseball team one step closer to the national champion... [+]
Or especially this
No. 2 Tar Heels Edge Dogs
06/21/2008 - The Fresno State Bulldogs, the Cinderella story of this year's NCAA baseball tournament, went to the wire against the No. 2 team in the nation in a... [+]
Guess I can't understand what is so bad about being called a Cinderella Story. Evidently it doesn't bother the official site of Fresno state.
Maybe it kind of rubs LL the wrong way because of all the 'glass slipper' and 'pumpkin' fodder we had to listen to from the dumb and dumber commentators.
Maybe the simplest parallel between Cinderella and Fresno State is that good things happen to good people. Cinderella was thrown into an adverse situation in her life. Through her own perserverance and desire she attained her goal to be loved and be happy.
The Bulldogs were thrown into an adverse situation of losing games and their best pitcher early in the year. Through their perserverance and desire to bounce back and find a way to win, they attained their goals one at a time - the ultimate one in a National Championship.
Anyone that wants to come out West and watch some baseball for any amount of time will see the game is played at the highest level. I think that is what some of us are trying to say.
Maybe the simplest parallel between Cinderella and Fresno State is that good things happen to good people. Cinderella was thrown into an adverse situation in her life. Through her own perserverance and desire she attained her goal to be loved and be happy.
The Bulldogs were thrown into an adverse situation of losing games and their best pitcher early in the year. Through their perserverance and desire to bounce back and find a way to win, they attained their goals one at a time - the ultimate one in a National Championship.
Anyone that wants to come out West and watch some baseball for any amount of time will see the game is played at the highest level. I think that is what some of us are trying to say.
Here's something that I think is interesting. During the Regionals, there were 15 games played between the West (CA and AZ, this year) and RUSA (rest of the USA). Those games took place in 5 Regionals. The West teams were Arizona, Fullerton, UCLA, Stanford, Pepperdine, UC Irvine, and Arizona State. RUSA teams were Eastern Michigan, Michigan, Kentucky, Rider, Virginia, Arkansas, **** Roberts, Nebraska, Stony Brook, Vanderbilt, and Oklahoma. The other 5 West teams (UC Davis, Long Beach, Fresno State, San Diego, and California) didn't play a RUSA team during the Regionals.
The record of those 15 games was : West 15, RUSA 0
I don't think this tells us much about the relative strength of the top teams across the country, but it does show, IMO, that the second tier teams (with respect to this tournament) aren't in the West. Instead they are from RUSA. Clearly RUSA has quite a few relatively weak conferences which get automatic berths.
So one aspect of the "bias" against West teams is mainly structural in nature. As long as we have automatic berths for conference champions, some weak teams will make the tournament at the expense of stronger teams. I don't expect that to change.
The record of those 15 games was : West 15, RUSA 0
I don't think this tells us much about the relative strength of the top teams across the country, but it does show, IMO, that the second tier teams (with respect to this tournament) aren't in the West. Instead they are from RUSA. Clearly RUSA has quite a few relatively weak conferences which get automatic berths.
So one aspect of the "bias" against West teams is mainly structural in nature. As long as we have automatic berths for conference champions, some weak teams will make the tournament at the expense of stronger teams. I don't expect that to change.
quote:The connotation of "Cinderella" is that FSU didn't earn it. They lucked out.
ll, please do not try to re-write both history AND fairy tails
The connotation of "Cinderella" is that they were an unexpected or surprise candidate for the Crown
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Guess I can't understand what is so bad about being called a Cinderella Story. Evidently it doesn't bother the official site of Fresno state.
Me neither! FS won! They were the best ball team - it's not an insult to refer to them as "Cinderella". They got that connection simply because they were considered the underdog by many.... smaller school, smaller budget I assume, less well known. They got the job done that many other schools couldn't and they demonstrated teammwork, dedication, commitment, skills.... things they obviously have had that many just didn't realize the power and strength of prior to us all watching them. It's a compliment, not an insult.
I agree, let's not get into the east/west debate.
Until you have watched college baseball regularly from both sides, it's hard to draw conclusions.
Cinderella, Cinderfella, who really cares (though I get the point why MA pointed that out). Fresno State winning the way they did (not expected by probables given to take the championship) is GREAT FOR COLLEGE BASEBALL, no matter where you are from.
It was stated by someone recently that I don't know much about baseball, but this I do know about the game, when you're HOT, you're HOT. It's not how you start, but how you end, and as always, the hottest team in Omaha got it done.
Until you have watched college baseball regularly from both sides, it's hard to draw conclusions.
Cinderella, Cinderfella, who really cares (though I get the point why MA pointed that out
). Fresno State winning the way they did (not expected by probables given to take the championship) is GREAT FOR COLLEGE BASEBALL, no matter where you are from.It was stated by someone recently that I don't know much about baseball, but this I do know about the game, when you're HOT, you're HOT. It's not how you start, but how you end, and as always, the hottest team in Omaha got it done.
To my good (hopefully?) friends in the East on the hsbaseballweb. The debate is not with you about whether or not the West gets slighted. Don't take it that way.
Said best by one of our most expert posters:
Read infielddad's summary too. Fresno is a Cinderella story because of the start to the season they had and the adversity they faced...NOT because they were a correctly seeded 4-seed...they most certainly were very poorly seeded. But I do understand LLorton's sentiments as well.
That is the debate...with the NCAA selection and seeding. Put SCU in instead of Arkansas and Oregon State instead of Oklahoma...and a few other similar "slights." Seed UC Davis 3rd and send them to UNC or Nebraska...give UCI a regional like they deserved rather than sending them across the country twice in order to get back to Omaha...seed Fresno 2 or 3 and send them to LSU or Georgia (rather than Long Beach State) and I think the debate largely goes away.
(BTW, I saw in the paper this morning that they were welcomed home to quite a parade...streets lined 2 hours before arriving). GREAT story!
Said best by one of our most expert posters:
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
All that said, it does seem like the NCAA slights the west coast teams. Maybe they should look at the results over the past several years.
Read infielddad's summary too. Fresno is a Cinderella story because of the start to the season they had and the adversity they faced...NOT because they were a correctly seeded 4-seed...they most certainly were very poorly seeded. But I do understand LLorton's sentiments as well.
That is the debate...with the NCAA selection and seeding. Put SCU in instead of Arkansas and Oregon State instead of Oklahoma...and a few other similar "slights." Seed UC Davis 3rd and send them to UNC or Nebraska...give UCI a regional like they deserved rather than sending them across the country twice in order to get back to Omaha...seed Fresno 2 or 3 and send them to LSU or Georgia (rather than Long Beach State) and I think the debate largely goes away.
(BTW, I saw in the paper this morning that they were welcomed home to quite a parade...streets lined 2 hours before arriving). GREAT story!
If you go to Youtube and search Fresno baseball, and filter by most recent posts, there are some great video of celebrations during and after the game...and at the park yesterday.
LL that is why it irked me so bad because they would not stop with the cinderella stuff. I am talking about the guys doing the broadcast. It was very clear from the first game they played they were legit. Heck I watched the games vs ASU and I saw all I needed to see. Yes its true no one outside of their team and loyal fans thought they had a chance. But once they started playing and everyone could see how talented they were and how great they were playing it should not have surprised anyone.
Its not like they had a bunch of scrubs on the field. They had a bunch of guys drafted and they had a bunch of very good players in that line up. It may indeed be that the NCAA needs to look at the way teams are selected. It may be that the west coast teams do not have enough teams in the tourney. If you look at the success of the west coast teams over the years they have certainly proved themsleves.
Were they underdogs coming in? Yes. Once they showed what they could do out there no one should have thought for one minute they were still underdogs. They beat the pants off people in Omaha. They gutted out some tough wins. And they simply outplayed everyone.
They started out poorly. But once they got it going they were very good. And they were the best team in the nation when it mattered the most.
Its not like they had a bunch of scrubs on the field. They had a bunch of guys drafted and they had a bunch of very good players in that line up. It may indeed be that the NCAA needs to look at the way teams are selected. It may be that the west coast teams do not have enough teams in the tourney. If you look at the success of the west coast teams over the years they have certainly proved themsleves.
Were they underdogs coming in? Yes. Once they showed what they could do out there no one should have thought for one minute they were still underdogs. They beat the pants off people in Omaha. They gutted out some tough wins. And they simply outplayed everyone.
They started out poorly. But once they got it going they were very good. And they were the best team in the nation when it mattered the most.
Plus their ace Tanner Scheppers was on the shelf.How tough is it to lose your #1 starter.
Don't really care about all the east/west, Cinderella stuff. What I take from this series was how much fun it was to watch these kids have so much fun playing ball. Listened to their coach today on Jim Rome. His final statement was something to the affect "By this point as coaches all we do is roll the balls out and let the 6th graders go crazy." Which, as coaches, is all you should have to do at that point. I just hope my high school players were watching.
Just so that everyone knows ( in case some didn't ) California State University Fresno's OWN baseball website labled them the " CINDERELLA wonder " baseball team.
It was written in big 2" headlines on their official baseball site.
Perhaps that has changed now,....but it was there.
Thats NOT how I interpreted it at all.
TPM's quote:
Exactly.
These are a great group of kids/athletes ( my 6 year old nephew has his baseball glove signed by every single one of them ) who battled hard. They didnt have an explaination for their sucess,...other than they played like a team.
No one guy,...but a joint effort,..and " they had fun out on the field!! "
It doesnt get better than that.
Chemistry? Talent? Gritty? Magical?
I'd have to say yes to all.
It was written in big 2" headlines on their official baseball site.
Perhaps that has changed now,....but it was there.
quote:The connotation of " Cinderella " is that FSU didn't earn it.
Thats NOT how I interpreted it at all.
TPM's quote:
quote:Cinderella, Cinderfella, who really cares (though I get the point why MA pointed that out ). Fresno State winning the way they did (not expected by probables given to take the championship) is GREAT FOR COLLEGE BASEBALL, no matter where you are from.
Exactly.
These are a great group of kids/athletes ( my 6 year old nephew has his baseball glove signed by every single one of them
) who battled hard. They didnt have an explaination for their sucess,...other than they played like a team.No one guy,...but a joint effort,..and " they had fun out on the field!! "
It doesnt get better than that.
Chemistry? Talent? Gritty? Magical?
I'd have to say yes to all.
quote:Cinderella
I think the term is being used as a team nobody expected to be there...much like Cinderella, herself. I do not find it derogatory at all...much like a darkhorse team. Would you rather be Cinderella or the ugly step sister?
quote:Would you rather be Cinderella or the ugly step sister?
I agree SSM.
I know that you have been there, Omaha is a magical place for all college baseball fans two weeks out of the year in June. Dreams come true there, even if you didn't win it all.
My idea is that Fresno had to beat out more top seeded teams to win. That's magical. That's awesome. No one said they weren't a very good team. I didn't hear the announcers say that and I didn't get the impression that they alluded to the fact that they didn't belong there. If they did, I missed it, as I did most of the chatter due to Mr. TPM's own running commentary.
That's my interpretation and I don't think it's meant to be derogatory toward anyone.
Fresno doesn't either.
JT,
Funny stuff.
I know that you have been there, Omaha is a magical place for all college baseball fans two weeks out of the year in June. Dreams come true there, even if you didn't win it all.
My idea is that Fresno had to beat out more top seeded teams to win. That's magical. That's awesome. No one said they weren't a very good team. I didn't hear the announcers say that and I didn't get the impression that they alluded to the fact that they didn't belong there. If they did, I missed it, as I did most of the chatter due to Mr. TPM's own running commentary.
That's my interpretation and I don't think it's meant to be derogatory toward anyone.
Fresno doesn't either.
JT,
Funny stuff.
TPM
Do you know the Fields kid personally?
Do you know the Fields kid personally?