It is amazing to me that somehow Fresno St. managed to outdo the cindarella stories of OSU the last two years. That was so much fun to watch!
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
I never considered Fresno St. a mid-major. Not 10 years ago, not today. But maybe thats my California bias?
They get good players (some of the best actually) from our area every year. They draw good crowds to a big college stadium. They have a strong fan base. To me, their program is just a tick below Fullerton and Long Beach...but certainly above mid-major.
(BTW, did you know they were missing their best pitcher through all of this? Tanner Scheppers).
RPIs are a mess. Have been ever since I've watched them. Maybe if the NCAA would pay less attention to them they would get the seeding more correct.
Fresno is most certainly a Cinderella champion. But they are legit, no doubt. USD, Long Beach State, ASU, Rice, UNC and Georgia is quite a track record and perhaps no national champion in some time is more deserving. What a great story!
justbb - I just used your post to start a discussion - I am not critiquing what you have to say in any way.
Curious what people really think. Do some think the RPI system stinks? Lets look at it...
RPI
1 0.648 53 11 53 11 Miami, Florida
2 0.643 54 14 54 14 North Carolina
3 0.634 54 14 54 14 Florida State
4 0.626 47 15 47 15 Rice
8 0.606 49 19 49 19 Louisiana State
9 0.601 41 24 41 24 Stanford
11 0.600 45 25 45 25 Georgia
No. 51 is Fresno.
The only real aberation there is Fresno, otherwise it looks like the RPI system was a pretty good predictor of the Omaha teams.
Do people think the West is superior? In 2005 Texas won. Are they from the East or the West? In 2006 and 2007 it was Oregon State and in 2008 it was Fresno State. Does this trend prove the West Coast teams are superior? Using that logic, would we conclude UC Davis, for example, is more talented than Stanford since they took 3 of 4 from them this year?
I don't recall one reporter or poster on the hsbbweb saying that Frsno State was under-seeded before the tournament started. In hindsight, they obviously were. I think some of the beef might be with the SEC placing 9 teams. Is it fair to say some of the hard feelings are about the at-large bids being skewed toward the East (or at least perceived that way). Is it even fair to say that? These are just questions for discussion. Lets have fun with it and see where the logical arguments take us
Don't know if I posted it or not...but I most definitely thought Fresno was under-seeded from the very start. Everyone I know out here thought so. Early rumors were that they'd be the #4 in our region and that worried us all an awful lot! Thought UC Davis was under-seeded too and they gave us quite a scare.
UC Davis might have been better than Stanford? They certainly matched up very well against us. They beat us 3 of 4 and had us on the ropes in the regional until the 9th inning of Game 2. I would say they should've been a 3-seed...but even a very strong 3-seed at that.
I am not going to re-start the East/West debate. I will just say that the NCAA ignores or under-seeds some really solid West teams every year in memory. Then everyone acts surprised when the West wins it. We play harder schedules out here (likely due to fewer weak teams nearby) and thus take more losses...beat each other up. But it serves West teams well in the playoffs as they have already played in many pressure-packed, competitive, close games. They're used to being behind and fighting back (see Fresno State demeanor when behind GA 5-0 in Game 2). Its probably just a function of geography and schedule-able games more than anything else. Our pre-season series were Nebraska, Fullerton and Texas. Doesn't get much better than that. Our conference had no "gimme's." It just is what it is.
On RPIs, looking at the relative 1-8 of the CWS teams...I would say it was upside down (more or less...exception UNC?), wouldn't you? Don't the results say that? But my main complaint about the RPIs is that they penalize teams like Santa Clara (#68 RPI, a mid-major for sure but with a very hard schedule and good results), UCSB and perhaps this year Oregon State (#60 RPI and thats a joke! Saw them in 3 games and they were as tough as any 2-seed in any regional out there).
JMO, nothing more.
UC Davis might have been better than Stanford? They certainly matched up very well against us. They beat us 3 of 4 and had us on the ropes in the regional until the 9th inning of Game 2. I would say they should've been a 3-seed...but even a very strong 3-seed at that.
I am not going to re-start the East/West debate. I will just say that the NCAA ignores or under-seeds some really solid West teams every year in memory. Then everyone acts surprised when the West wins it. We play harder schedules out here (likely due to fewer weak teams nearby) and thus take more losses...beat each other up. But it serves West teams well in the playoffs as they have already played in many pressure-packed, competitive, close games. They're used to being behind and fighting back (see Fresno State demeanor when behind GA 5-0 in Game 2). Its probably just a function of geography and schedule-able games more than anything else. Our pre-season series were Nebraska, Fullerton and Texas. Doesn't get much better than that. Our conference had no "gimme's." It just is what it is.
On RPIs, looking at the relative 1-8 of the CWS teams...I would say it was upside down (more or less...exception UNC?), wouldn't you? Don't the results say that? But my main complaint about the RPIs is that they penalize teams like Santa Clara (#68 RPI, a mid-major for sure but with a very hard schedule and good results), UCSB and perhaps this year Oregon State (#60 RPI and thats a joke! Saw them in 3 games and they were as tough as any 2-seed in any regional out there).
JMO, nothing more.
RPI is misleading. The degree of seperation is not proportionate to the position. Tiger woods is ranked #1 in the world but there is a huge gap in his ranking score and #2, with everybody else bunched up, way below him.
#51 is competitive with everybody, as they proved. If Fresno is commonly percieved as a major program on the west coast, then it is what it is.
It is such a momentum game. The intangibles leading to success are what makes your skin tingle, kids dogpile and drives coaches crazy trying to figure out.
#51 is competitive with everybody, as they proved. If Fresno is commonly percieved as a major program on the west coast, then it is what it is.
It is such a momentum game. The intangibles leading to success are what makes your skin tingle, kids dogpile and drives coaches crazy trying to figure out.
Where does this Tiger Woods play?
How does a golfer compare to a baseball team?
How does a golfer compare to a baseball team?
quote:It is such a momentum game. The intangibles leading to success are what makes your skin tingle, kids dogpile and drives coaches crazy trying to figure out.
Great point.
Perhaps we can all find our Santa Clara's out there. I looked at their schedule and yes there are some big boys on it but some other parts of their schedule leaves something to be desired imho. Hard to determine things on paper however
Never forget that winning must be factored in regardless of the schedule. I can point to College of Charleston on this coast who none of you have seen play. You would not want to see those guys show up in your regional bracket just like we probably all would be shaking our heads if we saw Santa Clara play in one of our brackets. The answer for Santa Clara is to win more games. That will raise their RPI and put them in line for an at-large bid given their tough schedule.
I admit I know virtually nothing about College of Charleston other than they have a reputation as a very good baseball program...even out here.
But...
Strength of Schedule:
Santa Clara - 17
College of Charleston - 137
RPI:
College of Charleston - 52
Santa Clara - 68
Losses:
College of Charleston - 20
Santa Clara - 22
Hard for me to reconcile all of this.
But...
Strength of Schedule:
Santa Clara - 17
College of Charleston - 137
RPI:
College of Charleston - 52
Santa Clara - 68
Losses:
College of Charleston - 20
Santa Clara - 22
Hard for me to reconcile all of this.
Youre right you don't know much about C of C. 9 players drafted. It is a fantastic college and wins their cof. regularly.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
I admit I know virtually nothing about College of Charleston other than they have a reputation as a very good baseball program...even out here.
But...
Strength of Schedule:
Santa Clara - 17
College of Charleston - 137
Excellent point and that is why I started the discussion. I still believe winning will set you free. If a school's main argument is SoS, then that is a loser most of the time imho - especially if you come out on the short end of the stick in many of those alledgedly "tougher" games.
Automatic Bids are another way for some of these smaller programs to take the decison-making away from the NCAA committee. Fresno State has indeed showed one possible way. Go out and win your way to a championship and leave all the excuses behind.
CD,
I think most of us accept that the conference tourney winner, whether it be Columbia in the Ivy League or LSU in the SEC gets a berth. It is that way in all levels of NCAA baseball and it isn't going to change.
Where the real issues arise, in my view, is when the NCAA repeatedly takes the 6-9 teams in the SEC, 5-8 in the ACC, 5-8 in the Big 12, at the expense of the #3-4 in the Big West, the number 5-6 in the Pac 10, and the #3-4 in the WCC.
In the Stanford regional, there was not much that much difference in Stanford, Pepperdine and UC Davis in the way they played.
The one team that did not have a chance to win that regional was the #9 SEC team, Arkansas, and they received a #3 seed ahead of Davis. Good team but no chance to compete in that regional, and not competitive with Davis.
Oklahoma being selected out of the Big 12 was laughable and that gets reinforced when you see how that conference performed in the post season.
Most everyone is now seeing/agreeing there is increasing parity in baseball, except, it seems, when the post season at large selections are made every year.
So I really see this as an issue whether the #5-9 teams in the SEC/ACC and Big 12 continue to deserve post season opportunities when it comes at the expense of programs like the College of Charleston, Santa Clara, and some others. Personally, I think we will have the same discussion in 2009, 2010, because the SEC/ACC etc will always wield much more influence. It is fun to discuss and debate, though.
I think most of us accept that the conference tourney winner, whether it be Columbia in the Ivy League or LSU in the SEC gets a berth. It is that way in all levels of NCAA baseball and it isn't going to change.
Where the real issues arise, in my view, is when the NCAA repeatedly takes the 6-9 teams in the SEC, 5-8 in the ACC, 5-8 in the Big 12, at the expense of the #3-4 in the Big West, the number 5-6 in the Pac 10, and the #3-4 in the WCC.
In the Stanford regional, there was not much that much difference in Stanford, Pepperdine and UC Davis in the way they played.
The one team that did not have a chance to win that regional was the #9 SEC team, Arkansas, and they received a #3 seed ahead of Davis. Good team but no chance to compete in that regional, and not competitive with Davis.
Oklahoma being selected out of the Big 12 was laughable and that gets reinforced when you see how that conference performed in the post season.
Most everyone is now seeing/agreeing there is increasing parity in baseball, except, it seems, when the post season at large selections are made every year.
So I really see this as an issue whether the #5-9 teams in the SEC/ACC and Big 12 continue to deserve post season opportunities when it comes at the expense of programs like the College of Charleston, Santa Clara, and some others. Personally, I think we will have the same discussion in 2009, 2010, because the SEC/ACC etc will always wield much more influence. It is fun to discuss and debate, though.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Youre right you don't know much about C of C. 9 players drafted. It is a fantastic college and wins their cof. regularly.
Re-read my entire post in which I said:
quote:...other than they have a reputation as a very good baseball program...even out here.
I think infielddad has nailed the crux of the problem from my perspective. I can only compare teams I've seen in person but Santa Clara, Oregon State and even Washington were all better than Arkansas. UC Davis was much better than them too, yet seeded lower. It wasn't that close.
BTW, I thought the best team I saw in person this year was Georgia. I thought they'd win it, but I hadn't seen Fresno State and while I thought they were very good too, I underestimated them myself.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
Where the real issues arise, in my view, is when the NCAA repeatedly takes the 6-9 teams in the SEC, 5-8 in the ACC, 5-8 in the Big 12, at the expense of the #3-4 in the Big West, the number 5-6 in the Pac 10, and the #3-4 in the WCC.
Great points! This is where I suspected the beef was. It is really hard to argue stats however. I would love to see Santa Clara play but for obvious reasons cannot. Interesting in basketball, most of us can see many programs play on both coasts via television. Perhaps if this sport were to grow on television, it might not be as easy to justify some of these decisions.
It seems UC Davis has transitioned well to D1. The Cajuns played them in Hawaii 2005, the year they moved up from D2.
Dad04 - I think their coach (Rex Peters) has really done a very nice job. He is well respected by HS coaches in Northern California and has recruited players that other schools may have overlooked...and coached them into better players.
UC Davis is a good academic school in a tough conference. Nice college town. Decent facilities. Pretty committed following (at least when they play Stanford!).
I have no idea how committed he is long-term to that program...and I would call them a "mid-major" for now. If I were a "major," he's a guy I'd sure be interested in interviewing. But I hope he stays...he's done a nice job.
UC Davis is a good academic school in a tough conference. Nice college town. Decent facilities. Pretty committed following (at least when they play Stanford!
).I have no idea how committed he is long-term to that program...and I would call them a "mid-major" for now. If I were a "major," he's a guy I'd sure be interested in interviewing. But I hope he stays...he's done a nice job.
To support justbb(like he needs it from me 
)
Coach Peters was hired in 2003 from DIII power Chapman in Southern CA, where he had great success.
He took over from a coaching legend that bbscout loved.
He does not have the best athletes. However, his teams execute and they play the game fundamentally well and he has very good players.
On top of that, Peters seemed to be a wonderful game coach with use of the hit and run, squeeze and constantly putting pressure on a defense to make plays.
Finally, while I am not close enough to truly know, my impression of the Davis program(like Fresno St) is that Coach Peters coaches in a way that gets the most out of his players, but his players seem committed, fearless and give their heart 100% on each and every play, in each and every game.
Coach Peters was hired in 2003 from DIII power Chapman in Southern CA, where he had great success.
He took over from a coaching legend that bbscout loved.
He does not have the best athletes. However, his teams execute and they play the game fundamentally well and he has very good players.
On top of that, Peters seemed to be a wonderful game coach with use of the hit and run, squeeze and constantly putting pressure on a defense to make plays.
Finally, while I am not close enough to truly know, my impression of the Davis program(like Fresno St) is that Coach Peters coaches in a way that gets the most out of his players, but his players seem committed, fearless and give their heart 100% on each and every play, in each and every game.
ClevelandDad said:
________________________________________________________
IMHO the answer is California will always have better overall team representation from its schools in the CWS tournament. For me the Georgia team pretty much is a single team, though groomed from the outset from East Cobb tournaments represents a very small populated state in comparison to California. For my way of thinking Georgia was the Cinderella team because if had to play in the west I don't think it would have made to the CWS at all. A greeat team doesn't get skunked 19-10.
California and the West is always discounted in equality against the East and Southeast schools. It just part of the culture there. To settle this once and for all we need to have cross country tournaments to qualify for the regionals then you would truely get the best teams competing for the CWS championship just as they do with the basketball finals. Bet the small schools from the SEC wouldn't get as far as they have been in the past.
JMO
quote:Do people think the West is superior? In 2005 Texas won. Are they from the East or the West? In 2006 and 2007 it was Oregon State and in 2008 it was Fresno State. Does this trend prove the West Coast teams are superior? Using that logic, would we conclude UC Davis, for example, is more talented than Stanford since they took 3 of 4 from them this year?
________________________________________________________
IMHO the answer is California will always have better overall team representation from its schools in the CWS tournament. For me the Georgia team pretty much is a single team, though groomed from the outset from East Cobb tournaments represents a very small populated state in comparison to California. For my way of thinking Georgia was the Cinderella team because if had to play in the west I don't think it would have made to the CWS at all. A greeat team doesn't get skunked 19-10.
California and the West is always discounted in equality against the East and Southeast schools. It just part of the culture there. To settle this once and for all we need to have cross country tournaments to qualify for the regionals then you would truely get the best teams competing for the CWS championship just as they do with the basketball finals. Bet the small schools from the SEC wouldn't get as far as they have been in the past.
JMO
Georgia dominated this year, they played competatively. The 5 day lay off hurt them.
It would be interesting to see more east/west during season.
One of the toughest teams Clemson ever played, neither east or west, **** Roberts. TOUGH AS NAILS.
It would be interesting to see more east/west during season.
One of the toughest teams Clemson ever played, neither east or west, **** Roberts. TOUGH AS NAILS.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
. The 5 day lay off hurt them.
Since Georgia won game 1, in very dramatic fashion, I don't understand how those days off play into the result. Your thoughts??
"A great team doesn't get skunked 19-10."
Don't really care one way or another-a bulldog is a bulldog-
but my experience is that getting skunked means being shutout. Could be wrong. At any rate, I don't necessarily agree that a great team can't get beaten by a large margin every now and then. 12-4, 15-1, 11-1, 14-4. FSU-West scores this year. They're still a pretty darn good team IMO.
Don't really care one way or another-a bulldog is a bulldog-
but my experience is that getting skunked means being shutout. Could be wrong. At any rate, I don't necessarily agree that a great team can't get beaten by a large margin every now and then. 12-4, 15-1, 11-1, 14-4. FSU-West scores this year. They're still a pretty darn good team IMO.
I've been waiting on the east/west fireworks to begin. Bottomline, people have opinions about "their" conference or local because it's theirs! They see more games from local areas or where son plays, etc. Regardless of what east coaster or west coaster says, they can't be completely unbiased towards any team. It's similar in asking any parent on this board about their child - they're not going to see that kid the same way another set of eyes will.
Georgia is a great ball team. I've seen them play several times during the season - however, I realize I have a SEC bias. It's what I've grown up cheering for. Obviously Fresno State was a better ball team this week - for several reasons IMO. I'm not sure that I'd even ever heard of Fresno State. I bet folks in CA had.
The arguments regarding west/east, north/south, are really meaningless IMO. There's GREAT ball everywhere and no one state, no one conference, no one region has a lock on that.
Georgia is a great ball team. I've seen them play several times during the season - however, I realize I have a SEC bias. It's what I've grown up cheering for. Obviously Fresno State was a better ball team this week - for several reasons IMO. I'm not sure that I'd even ever heard of Fresno State. I bet folks in CA had.
The arguments regarding west/east, north/south, are really meaningless IMO. There's GREAT ball everywhere and no one state, no one conference, no one region has a lock on that.