Commitment overload and NLI

Funny, was trying to search google for an answer and this thread showed up at top of search results. 

Rick from Informed Athlete will know. Remember though, Rick is runnng a business helping student athletes run the NCAA maze. 

wareagle posted:

Does the NLI or NCAA moniter school commitment amounts? Do the sum of these new NLI’s and returning commitments have to stay below the 11.7 or can schools actually commit to more than the 11.7 as long as it is cut down to 11.7 by the start of the season Or before they actually come to campus?

Just from what I've read (not first-hand knowledge), neither NLI or NCAA monitor commitment counts. The numbers are too fluid. I'm pretty sure the school's primary concern is end of year reporting. As long as the number is less than or equal to 11.7 when the school year ends, they are in compliance. If the school gets accused of an infraction, they have to produce proof. That could include a situation where one sport gets accused of a violation and the entire athletics department gets audited.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

wareagle posted:

Does the NLI or NCAA moniter school commitment amounts? Do the sum of these new NLI’s and returning commitments have to stay below the 11.7 or can schools actually commit to more than the 11.7 as long as it is cut down to 11.7 by the start of the season Or before they actually come to campus?

Just from what I've read (not first-hand knowledge), neither NLI or NCAA monitor commitment counts. The numbers are too fluid. I'm pretty sure the school's primary concern is end of year reporting. As long as the number is less than or equal to 11.7 when the school year ends, they are in compliance. If the school gets accused of an infraction, they have to produce proof. That could include a situation where one sport gets accused of a violation and the entire athletics department gets audited.

MidAtlantic, I do not claim to be a rules expert. But I’m pretty sure the roster has to be finalized BEFORE the season starts, not at the end of the year. If you could wait until the end of the year, teams would not have cuts following the fall practice and just keep guys on for injuries or performance and then make massive cut before deadline at the end of the season. Not sure about other divisions, but this certainly is not how it happens at D1 level. Your roster limit is set by some deadline prior to season starting. This is why injuries put such a strain on collegiate programs. They can’t just call someone up from the farm system like professional teams can. 

youngGun  - That is also my understanding.   D1 rosters have to be set prior to the beginning of the spring season in February.  I've seen some programs post their upperclassmen in the Fall and then post the freshmen later after the Fall tryout or practices.  My son's D1 school did this, because there was very little turnover once you got past freshmen year.

WarEagle - I don't think it is the schools posting commitments, I think it is the individual recruits/travel organizations pledging verbal commitment to schools that you are referring to.   I've never seen a college officially post their commitments until after they've signed an NLI or enrolled.  

You may be surprised how many of those commits are not receiving athletic scholarship and are either getting academic money or no money at all. This type  of commits will never sign an actual NLI. You can theoretically bring in hundreds of non scholarship players and then cut down to the 35 man roster.

theres a juco here in Texas known for having 100 or more kids every year

Fenway

I am sure that is correct.  I am wondering if all those kids ( looking at 2019 class) with verbal commitments actually sign NLI in November then it appears that the schools would have to be over committed. At least roster wise if not probably financial as well. I think it is impossible to know, which is why I wondered if anyone monitors it. Or can schools just sign them up and still have a year to figure out what sticks or what they want to keep? I am pretty sure this is the case for non scholarship players but what about the kids that actually receive athletic money commitments?

2018's new team has 43 coming in for the fall after the draft and after a couple that decided to transfer.  Has to get to 35..... Probably a couple I don't know about that are transferring, 1-2 freshman will wash out, 1-2 to grades and transfer at the break... and maybe have to cut a couple.  I believe the roster has to be turned in like 12 days prior to the first spring game in Feb.   Making the 35 is one thing, making the 26 is another. 

You only sign an NLI if you're getting baseball money.  You can "commit" to a program with baseball money, academic money, a combination of both or nothing at all.  A commitment means absolutely nothing with regards to the school or the NCAA....you don't count unless you're receiving baseball money and/or are put on the spring roster.  

younggun posted:

MidAtlanticDad posted:

wareagle posted:

Does the NLI or NCAA moniter school commitment amounts? Do the sum of these new NLI’s and returning commitments have to stay below the 11.7 or can schools actually commit to more than the 11.7 as long as it is cut down to 11.7 by the start of the season Or before they actually come to campus?

Just from what I've read (not first-hand knowledge), neither NLI or NCAA monitor commitment counts. The numbers are too fluid. I'm pretty sure the school's primary concern is end of year reporting. As long as the number is less than or equal to 11.7 when the school year ends, they are in compliance. If the school gets accused of an infraction, they have to produce proof. That could include a situation where one sport gets accused of a violation and the entire athletics department gets audited.

MidAtlantic, I do not claim to be a rules expert. But I’m pretty sure the roster has to be finalized BEFORE the season starts, not at the end of the year. If you could wait until the end of the year, teams would not have cuts following the fall practice and just keep guys on for injuries or performance and then make massive cut before deadline at the end of the season. Not sure about other divisions, but this certainly is not how it happens at D1 level. Your roster limit is set by some deadline prior to season starting. This is why injuries put such a strain on collegiate programs. They can’t just call someone up from the farm system like professional teams can. 

I may be misunderstanding, but I don't think the NCAA is concerned with roster size as it pertains to exceeding financial aid limitations. Regardless of who played or who was on the roster, the school cannot exceed 11.7 baseball scholarships for the school year. It doesn't matter if a transfer came in and got a 1 semester scholarship, or a kid left after only receiving the fall scholarship, or whatever the mix might be.

So I understand that 43 can show up in fall but only 11.7 scholarships. If someone washes out then that money can be transferred to another player and they must get to 35 by season. But can they commit money for more than the 11.7 before fall starts or before season starts then have to release someone primarily because they overcommitted?  From what I read, the student gets penalized pretty heavy if they change thier mind, but the school not so much?? Just trying to understand the process. 

The 11.7 scholarships pertains to players who are receiving baseball money and have signed an NLI.....no, a school cannot go into the fall with more than 11.7 on the books regardless of whether or not kids leave.  If they are at 11.7 and a kid leaves after fall semester, yes, they can give that money to someone else in the Spring....but they can't have 14.7 signed to NLI's thinking that they are just going to boot 3 after the fall.  

Thanks Buckeye. That clarifies it pretty well. I assume the same applies to draft kids on NLI. Schools have to allow the money for those kids and then if they go in the draft then the school can move that committed money to others but they can’t over sign kids on NLI’s assuming that they will lose some in the draft. 

Never assume parents are being straight forward when they talk about scholarships. I heard someone say their kid got 50%. What he got was a 50% college loan. What’s often even worse misinformation is info passed on from a third party who doesn’t understand the process.

I told people my kids received 75% between baseball/softball and academics. I was very clear two thirds was academic money. It came back around both kids received 75% for sports. 

bacdorslider posted:

2018's new team has 43 coming in for the fall after the draft and after a couple that decided to transfer.  Has to get to 35..... Probably a couple I don't know about that are transferring, 1-2 freshman will wash out, 1-2 to grades and transfer at the break... and maybe have to cut a couple.  I believe the roster has to be turned in like 12 days prior to the first spring game in Feb.   Making the 35 is one thing, making the 26 is another. 

Agree, Clemson always had around 43-45 players in the fall and cut that down prior to spring and the start of the season. Most of the guys went to the developmental squad or D Squad, not sure about who had money etc but i know several over the years made the roster the next year so something to be said about that. Several who were scholarshipped with money were told to find teams elsewhere as playing time was limited and weren't getting a spot next season.

Plus you have to take it with a grain of salt that they are SIGNING a scholarship.  Tradition at my son's new school is that they have everyone going to college SIGN, so the one's who are getting academic money feel just as important as those who are getting sports money to go to college.  I had to bite my tongue when I heard that.  There are also a lot of kids everywhere that SIGN for baseball even if they are getting no baseball money.  I have a friend whose son is getting full ride academic and was told point blank that he will only be allowed to tryout for JV baseball the first year and then be evaluated.  He SIGNED saying he was going to X school to play baseball on a scholarship.  Made a big deal about it just like a kid going to a P5 school on large baseball scholarship.  Had a friend's jersey who was there several years ago on and a cap.  I just had to laugh when I saw it.

PitchingFan posted:

Plus you have to take it with a grain of salt that they are SIGNING a scholarship.  Tradition at my son's new school is that they have everyone going to college SIGN, so the one's who are getting academic money feel just as important as those who are getting sports money to go to college.  I had to bite my tongue when I heard that.  There are also a lot of kids everywhere that SIGN for baseball even if they are getting no baseball money.  I have a friend whose son is getting full ride academic and was told point blank that he will only be allowed to tryout for JV baseball the first year and then be evaluated.  He SIGNED saying he was going to X school to play baseball on a scholarship.  Made a big deal about it just like a kid going to a P5 school on large baseball scholarship.  Had a friend's jersey who was there several years ago on and a cap.  I just had to laugh when I saw it.

The high schools call the local media and get all their kids headed for college sports in the paper. There’s no harm. It’s good PR for the high school program.

PitchingFan posted:

Plus you have to take it with a grain of salt that they are SIGNING a scholarship.  Tradition at my son's new school is that they have everyone going to college SIGN, so the one's who are getting academic money feel just as important as those who are getting sports money to go to college.  I had to bite my tongue when I heard that.  There are also a lot of kids everywhere that SIGN for baseball even if they are getting no baseball money.  I have a friend whose son is getting full ride academic and was told point blank that he will only be allowed to tryout for JV baseball the first year and then be evaluated.  He SIGNED saying he was going to X school to play baseball on a scholarship.  Made a big deal about it just like a kid going to a P5 school on large baseball scholarship.  Had a friend's jersey who was there several years ago on and a cap.  I just had to laugh when I saw it.

Really, why?

Here's an example. My son plays with a kid who is committed to Vandy. His dad told me "when the time comes, we will take whatever is better -- if the financial aid we can get is a better deal than the baseball scholarship, we'll take the financial aid." So in that case, if the financial aid is better, that kid will be signing a financial aid agreement, not a baseball scholarship. If there is a photo op at school and he is wearing a Vandy hat and jersey, should people bite their tongue because he is not signing an NLI?

What about players going to service academies? They don't sign an NLI -- they are on exactly the same deal as every other student at those schools. Should Army, Navy, and Air Force commits be allowed in the photo ops for  kids signing with colleges?

2019Dad posted:

PitchingFan posted:

Plus you have to take it with a grain of salt that they are SIGNING a scholarship.  Tradition at my son's new school is that they have everyone going to college SIGN, so the one's who are getting academic money feel just as important as those who are getting sports money to go to college.  I had to bite my tongue when I heard that.  There are also a lot of kids everywhere that SIGN for baseball even if they are getting no baseball money.  I have a friend whose son is getting full ride academic and was told point blank that he will only be allowed to tryout for JV baseball the first year and then be evaluated.  He SIGNED saying he was going to X school to play baseball on a scholarship.  Made a big deal about it just like a kid going to a P5 school on large baseball scholarship.  Had a friend's jersey who was there several years ago on and a cap.  I just had to laugh when I saw it.

Really, why?

Here's an example. My son plays with a kid who is committed to Vandy. His dad told me "when the time comes, we will take whatever is better -- if the financial aid we can get is a better deal than the baseball scholarship, we'll take the financial aid." So in that case, if the financial aid is better, that kid will be signing a financial aid agreement, not a baseball scholarship. If there is a photo op at school and he is wearing a Vandy hat and jersey, should people bite their tongue because he is not signing an NLI?

What about players going to service academies? They don't sign an NLI -- they are on exactly the same deal as every other student at those schools. Should Army, Navy, and Air Force commits be allowed in the photo ops for  kids signing with colleges?

I'm betting that the kid you know that committed to Vandy wasn't told that he would be allowed to tryout for the JV.  Being told that is essentially the same as being told that he isn't good enough to play baseball at that school. Based on the situation as presented by PitchingFan I would have the same reaction as he did. It is a farce that this kid presented the illusion that he was recruited to play baseball at the school in question.  Lots of schools have open tryouts for any player that wants to give it a shot - qualified or not. This was the case when I played and we had over 200 show up one year.  Our coach called them "The Amazings" - because it was amazing how bad they were.  A kid that is walking on into an open tryout should not be part of a photo op for recruited athletes. To me it doesn't matter where the money comes from or even if there isn't any money involved. The determining factor should be whether a kid was recruited or not.  

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

PitchingFan posted:

Plus you have to take it with a grain of salt that they are SIGNING a scholarship.  Tradition at my son's new school is that they have everyone going to college SIGN, so the one's who are getting academic money feel just as important as those who are getting sports money to go to college.  I had to bite my tongue when I heard that.  There are also a lot of kids everywhere that SIGN for baseball even if they are getting no baseball money.  I have a friend whose son is getting full ride academic and was told point blank that he will only be allowed to tryout for JV baseball the first year and then be evaluated.  He SIGNED saying he was going to X school to play baseball on a scholarship.  Made a big deal about it just like a kid going to a P5 school on large baseball scholarship.  Had a friend's jersey who was there several years ago on and a cap.  I just had to laugh when I saw it.

Really, why?

Here's an example. My son plays with a kid who is committed to Vandy. His dad told me "when the time comes, we will take whatever is better -- if the financial aid we can get is a better deal than the baseball scholarship, we'll take the financial aid." So in that case, if the financial aid is better, that kid will be signing a financial aid agreement, not a baseball scholarship. If there is a photo op at school and he is wearing a Vandy hat and jersey, should people bite their tongue because he is not signing an NLI?

What about players going to service academies? They don't sign an NLI -- they are on exactly the same deal as every other student at those schools. Should Army, Navy, and Air Force commits be allowed in the photo ops for  kids signing with colleges?

I'm betting that the kid you know that committed to Vandy wasn't told that he would be allowed to tryout for the JV.  Being told that is essentially the same as being told that he isn't good enough to play baseball at that school. Based on the situation as presented by PitchingFan I would have the same reaction as he did. It is a farce that this kid presented the illusion that he was recruited to play baseball at the school in question.  Lots of schools have open tryouts for any player that wants to give it a shot - qualified or not. This was the case when I played and we had over 200 show up one year.  Our coach called them "The Amazings" - because it was amazing how bad they were.  A kid that is walking on into an open tryout should not be part of a photo op for recruited athletes. To me it doesn't matter where the money comes from or even if there isn't any money involved. The determining factor should be whether a kid was recruited or not.  

Agree 100% with your last sentence

I wasn't reacting to the JV example -- agree with you there -- but to the general idea that there must be baseball scholarship $ or it's somehow invalid