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Competing in college

infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
On our local baseball message board there is a link to the new 2010 roster at DII power Sonoma State.
They started with 150 players trying out.
Of that 150 players, somewhere between 15 and 19 were transfers from DI programs.
Of that group of DI transfers, 4 made the final roster.
Reading that gave me chills and I actually know some of what it takes to compete at the college level. I guess I had just never seen the numbers stated so clearly and with stark realism.
For those DI guys, just one or two years ago many were signing NLI's and the future seemed so full of optimism. Unless those 11 transfer to an NAIA(3rd school in 2-3 years) or have JC eligibility and transferred there at the semester(very difficult in CA now and again the 3rd school in 2 years), their baseball career is by and large over.
That is a wonderful reality for the 4 transfers who made the roster.
It is an awfully stark emptiness for the rest.

'You don't have to be a great player to play in the major leagues, you've got to be a good one every day.'

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ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
Those numbers are stark indeed.

Question: Why isn't Sonoma State winning the national title every year? I believe Emporia State from Nebraska won last year and several years before that Tampa. I don't believe either of those programs recruit that way. I have never heard of that type of recruiting even on the D3 level that is sometimes notorius for it. The one program that I am aware of it back here in the east at least has championships to show for it. That still does not justify the practice imho.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Bottom line---you gotta know what you are getting into !!!!!


TR, I could not agree with you more.
I think this can be the most difficult and least transparent part of college recruiting in many situations.
With the ever increasing pressure being created by early offers and commitments, the issue gets worse, not better, I think.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out how a sophomore can make an informed decision on a college when he has never had an official visit and when probably 90% or more of the players he might meet on an unofficial visit won't be on the roster when he gets to campus about 3 years later.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
CD,
SSU plays in a highly competitive DII league but it regularly makes the DII CWS.
The top 2 in that league, Chico and Sonoma battle and most often only one gets chosen for post season play. Happens this way in DIII also in the West.
Recently, UC San Diego has really upgraded their program and in some polls, they are rated #1 pre-season DII.
All 3 of these teams can compete with Tampa and others. It is just they beat the heck out of each other during the season and only one usually survives to play after the regular season.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

Am pretty familiar with the Sonoma State process, we personally know a bunch of players who do and have gone there recently...7 players who have made the roster, 5 who have gotten cut.

I would not characterize necessarily as an overrcrutiment process. One amzaing aspect is that that they frankly do not even have to recruit much. They known are a DII powerhouse in a tough conference...their kids move on...they are inexpensive...the education is good but not impossible to balance...players know that they can get a fair shot there even with the #'s...the school is popular and a great location.

In one way the model that they run shows that kids have no problem fairly competing for spots rather than being entitled by a NLI. The vast majority know what they are getting into when they arrive they choose to take that risk, they believe in their skills. All they are looking for is a shot, and at the very least they can get it there. Case in point, kid from our small HS, absolutely ignored out of HS has beaten his way through 150 kids and onto that roster for the last 3 years and had a great experience there.

Someone told me once that eventually you are going to have to beat your way through the big numbers of closely talented players, either now or later.

In a related subject and one that I have commented on before, 19 DI transfers says something pretty clear about the current "housecleaning" going on now with the rules "adjustments" at the DI's.

Cool 44
.
Last edited by observer44
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
Infieldad:

There really is two messages here; first as you have pointed out, making a decision with limited information (early commitments).

The second is something that you are aware of but more California families need to be aware of and factor into their college choices. There are more players per college roster spot here in CA then anywhere else in the country. Factor this in with limited choices; a handful of high profile national programs (Stanford, Cal, UCLA, etc.), very few D3 programs and what is available is generally at the high end academically what is left is the State schools which are becoming increasingly "disfunctional."

The real point in my mind is families really need to explore educational opportunities which will enable your son to continue to play ball if that is what is important. If you are a California kid and baseball is important; please expand your horizons. Otherwise what happens at SSU may in fact happen to you!
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

CD,

Here is my take...

as I said above...

quote:
Someone told me once that eventually you are going to have to beat your way through the big numbers of closely talented players, either now or later.


At some point you are going to have to be in the fray, unprotected by the rules, or an NLI, or a guaranteed roster spot...maybe in college for some...maybe when you get beyond college (we are watching kids ours played College ball with get starting to get released out of the minors)...but, that being said it is up to you to do your research, to now what you are getting into, to know what the chances, the opportunities and the challenges are. I have no real problem with a player facing this kind of competition as long as he understands going in what he is in for. I know kids who have beaten their was though 70+ for years to make college rosters with no guarantees, but they know the situation going in.

I DO however have a problem with mid stream unilateral rules or situation or coaching changes. Or recruting situations being misrepresented by programs and a kid arriving to face something he did not expect, or was sold, or shifting things under him. Or making him sit out a year after you do so...

Cool
Last edited by observer44
W workinghard100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
.

CD,

Here is my take...

as I said above...

quote:
Someone told me once that eventually you are going to have to beat your way through the big numbers of closely talented players, either now or later.


At some point you are going to have to be in the fray, unprotected by the rules, or an NLI, or a guaranteed roster spot...maybe in college for some...maybe when you get beyond college (we are watching kids ours played College ball with get starting to get released out of the minors)...but, that being said it is up to you to do your research, to now what you are getting into, to know what the chances, the opportunities and the challenges are. I have no real problem with a player facing this kind of competition as long as he understands going in what he is in for. I know kids who have beaten their was though 70+ for years to make college rosters with no guarantees, but they know the situation going in.

I DO however have a problem with mid stream unilateral rules or situation or coaching changes. Or recruting situations being misrepresented by programs and a kid arriving to face something he did not expect, or was sold, or shifting things under him. Or making him sit out a year after you do so...

Cool

Well said observer44...agree
Last edited by workinghard
T 4theloveofthegame10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
.

Am pretty familiar with the Sonoma State process, we personally know a bunch of players who do and have gone there recently...7 players who have made the roster, 5 who have gotten cut.

I would not characterize necessarily as an overrcrutiment process. One amzaing aspect is that that they frankly do not even have to recruit much. They known are a DII powerhouse in a tough conference...their kids move on...they are inexpensive...the education is good but not impossible to balance...players know that they can get a fair shot there even with the #'s...the school is popular and a great location.

In one way the model that they run shows that kids have no problem fairly competing for spots rather than being entitled by a NLI. The vast majority know what they are getting into when they arrive they choose to take that risk, they believe in their skills. All they are looking for is a shot, and at the very least they can get it there. Case in point, kid from our small HS, absolutely ignored out of HS has beaten his way through 150 kids and onto that roster for the last 3 years and had a great experience there.

Someone told me once that eventually you are going to have to beat your way through the big numbers of closely talented players, either now or later.

In a related subject and one that I have commented on before, 19 DI transfers says something pretty clear about the current "housecleaning" going on now with the rules "adjustments" at the DI's.

Cool 44
.


I don't know if there is anyway that it could be not considered as over recruiting.

Granted their program may not be fully funded and they do not have as many scholarships as a DI program, but the coaches need to have some sort of idea where they are in terms of recruits and at some point they should be honest with the potential players that there is a lot of recruits coming in and they do not have a good chance of making the roster and they would be better served not coming to their program. Competition for their roster spots is healthy, but only to a certain extent.

Some players may want to attend a school for their academics but I don't think this program is a must to attend school.

The school may hedge their bets as to not knowing if a recruit is going to go to a DI program, signing with a pro team, or just going to another program as a walk on, but missing by 115 players, that is a lot and is pretty un-excusable.

This is a total dis-respect for the good of the student-athelete. Could be a way for their program stock-pile players away from other programs.

This is just either bad or over recruiting, take your pick.
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
That is a wonderful reality for the 4 transfers who made the roster.
It is an awfully stark emptiness for the rest.


Very good point, and it looks to be a "real eye-opener" to many D1 players. The DII powerhouses in Ca,Fl, Ga and Tx have got to be ecstatic over the players that will "come knocking," needing a place to play! College baseball has become very competitive, especially the DI, DII and Juco levels. I would think that this is only going to accelerate that happening.

Before, in the past, DII decided on whether to recruit at the H.S. level and develop, count on veteran JUCO'S or some balance of the two strategies. Now they have another huge talent source to draw from ... it would appear.
Again, "let the athlete beware."
Last edited by Prime9
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:


In a related subject and one that I have commented on before, 19 DI transfers says something pretty clear about the current "housecleaning" going on now with the rules "adjustments" at the DI's.



3FG clarified that the 2.6 threshold for cutting students without it affecting APR relates only to athletes that transfer D1 to D1, not D1 to JUCO, not D1 to anywhere...but D1. And also that only 10% of those leaving a D1, go to another D1, so the rule affects very, very few athletes.

I know you and I have been round and round on this before, but when you use terminology like ...
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
... says something pretty clear about the current "housecleaning" going on now with the rules "adjustments" at the DI's.

...I feel that is terribly overstated. I respect your opinion on the matter, to the point where I am constantly rechecking my own and weighing its validity...however, presenting this as though it were widely accepted as true, is not wholly accurate.
Last edited by CPLZ
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
The 2.6 rule applies to any player who immediately transfers full-time to any other 4 year school, not just to a D1. However, IMO, a player ending his freshman year has the obvious option of attending a JC, and it hardly seems likely that a coach can correctly guess which of his players will opt for a 4 year school instead of a JC. So I don't see how the 2.6 rule materially affects rising sophomores.

Actually, for most rising sophomore players, the JC route appears superior, because with an AA degree he can transfer to a new D1 without sitting out.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 4theloveofthegame:

The school may hedge their bets as to not knowing if a recruit is going to go to a DI program, signing with a pro team, or just going to another program as a walk on, but missing by 115 players, that is a lot and is pretty un-excusable.

This is a total dis-respect for the good of the student-athelete. Could be a way for their program stock-pile players away from other programs.

This is just either bad or over recruiting, take your pick.


Why do you think the 150 players are recruited? I can only speak with accuracy about one of the 150-- he's a neighbor, and the only encouragement he received from the Sonoma State program was the assurance that there would be open try-outs. And that is a real difference to the nearby D1 programs: the D1s don't have genuine open tryouts.

It's the same thing at JCs around here. They have far more guys trying out for the team than room. Most of the players at the tryout weren't recruited.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
college itself means different things to different people. first and formost it's a place of learning. thats why it should be your reason for the school,not baseball. as a scout said, you don't go to college to major in baseball. it is/can be a stepping stone though. if you can succeed in the big building's.

having said that, i'm the parent of 2 acedemicly challenged son's. while the older boy was being recruited for college, the harvard coach called the house. he wouldn't have lasted a day there. know your limitation's.

is it that california has more players than places for them? eventually in life were all tested, no different in baseball. maybe a little just a little sooner.
BW Bob Williams500+ posts
SSU;
As you know I was the 1st coach in 1977 at this school and support the program as contributor and observer.

Yesterday, SSU players SF State [new coach and a friend]. there were 16 pro scouts [many of my friends from the AC games] and Twins Scouting Director.

They were there to watch the two pitchers who pitched last year at Pepperdine U.

This is a beautiful campus in the Sonoma County wine country, one hour north of SF. The educational program are "outstanding". The coaches are all great teachers. The 150 players in the Fall all received a "fair" tryout.

You are all discussing a Division II program which is equal to many Division 1 programs. If you visit SSU this spring, please call me.

On the 29 May, I will produce a three day 16-18 year old tournament and name it the "John Goelz" Invitational after the coach, who has won over 700 games.

Bob Williams

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