Chico, you are muddying the waters with your close... puking and getting up early are two different line items 
My only comment is that college academics are not a full-time job. See https://www.aacu.org/publicati...nes-how-much-college
"On average, full-time 2009 and 2010 respondents at US institutions studied only 14.7 hours per week."
So 15 hours or class, plus 15 hours of studying = 30 hours. Plus they get a month off over the holidays, spring break, etc. Of course, if you skip class or don't study, the hours spent can be even less. 
2019Dad posted:My only comment is that college academics are not a full-time job. See https://www.aacu.org/publicati...nes-how-much-college
"On average, full-time 2009 and 2010 respondents at US institutions studied only 14.7 hours per week."
So 15 hours or class, plus 15 hours of studying = 30 hours. Plus they get a month off over the holidays, spring break, etc. Of course, if you skip class or don't study, the hours spent can be even less.
If average is the middle (actually median is) half of students study beyond an average number of hours, Given 57% of college students graduate the odds for the average student doesn’t look too good. I’ll guess the average number of study hours is dragged down by those who will flunk out at some point in time.
I still don’t understand how an early morning practice affects grades. All a student-athlete has to do is manage their time properly. As a high school student they have the benefit of advice and help from parents.
I never understood the 6am workouts for HS players. I just never saw a reason to wake up at 5 and run when I can stay after school at 3:30 and do the same thing. I also don't think baseball is a sport where you need a ton of conditioning. It's not basketball or wrestling, a player will run a max of 360 ft at once. I always thought having players run suicides/sprints for 45 minutes at the end of practice was a waste of valuable time.
Strength training and arm conditioning are another story. Hit the gym and lift weights/stay after school and long toss, if you're a pitcher run. If you are playing a winter sport there is nothing stopping you from renting a cage once a week and hitting/throwing for an hour.
Chico Escuela posted:CoachB25 posted:I never required anyone to be at our conditioning program. Simply put, everyone knew that if they didn't, they'd lose their positions because their competition would be bigger, quicker and stronger. I think some may remember me posting about this back in the day. We started at 6 in the morning. We lifted, did a plyo program, and one day a week hit. We were never allowed to throw a ball due to some perception by my AD that we would be violating rules. So, we threw footballs. We easily put 30 kids in that gym. They celebrated the day when the entire group finally completed the plyo program without anyone throwing up. It was intense. As CabbageDad pointed out, we are a small school and we play a huge school schedule. The team bonding that went on was amazing. When we would begin each year, there would be tears and when we would finish, there were kids walking around that school with abs like you have never seen and we were fast fast. To this day, I love those kids and admire them for what they did.
You started at 6 am during the school year? Gotta admit, my first thought is about what that did for your players' grades... Sure, plenty of kids used to have a morning paper route (I did for a while) or had to milk the cows before school. But getting teenaged boys up in time to be at the gym by 6:00, working them out until they puke, then sending them to math class...?
I think Ryno's started at 6:30 for hitting, and then they did pitching in the evenings.
RJM posted:Chico Escuela posted:RJM posted:Chico Escuela posted:RJM posted:My son couldn’t attend baseball workouts after school due to playing basketball. So twice a week he was up at 5am and at the gym door at 5:45 when the coach showed up. He worked out on his own in the garage a couple more days per week before school. He was in the gifted program. The long days had zero negative impact on his grades.
What it did do is make the college demands seem not so hard with baseball and majoring in Economics with a concentration in Quaritative Analytics.
My daughter said the time demands of law school was a piece of cake after softball and a STEM major.
RJM, I never argued that no kid could manage 5 am workouts. Clearly some do and thrive on it. It sounds as though your kids were great students and had a lot of self-discipline from an early age. But not every player on most HS baseball teams has what it takes to become an astronaut or a brain surgeon (and some who could don't show the requisite self-discipline at age 16 or 17). I'm all for pushing kids to perform at their best, but as a parent I'd be concerned if my son or daughter's HS team wanted them at school before dawn on a weekday on a regular basis. Maybe that schedule is unavoidable (which I acknowledged above might be the case sometimes), but I'd be concerned about athletics interfering with academics.
All it takes is not screwing around in study halls to lighten the load in the evening and going to bed at an appropriate time to get enough sleep.
You are operating from the assumption that you are dealing with a kid who is mature enough (and a good enough student) to understand this reasoning and act on it. Some kids won't figure that out, even with their parents on their cases. If working out at zero-dark hundred isn't necessary, why create the added degree of difficulty for those kids who might not handle it well? For that matter, why turn an A-minus into a B-plus because a kid is drowsy in class, if there is no need?
I say this as the parent of two kids who did very well academically while also playing multiple varsity sports. Could they have managed 5 a.m. workouts? Probably... But I wouldn't expect them to do that--or their coaches to schedule workouts then-- unless there was some specific reason it was necessary. Your answer was that your kid--who sounds like an unusually good student and very disciplined--chose to do that. I believe you, and I believe he benefited from it. But I don't think that's responsive to the point I'm making.
What happens when a kid gets to college ball and is expected to be working out before classes? His parents aren’t there to bug him to get up. His college coach will probably comment once about missing a workout before moving on to the next player.
College athletics and academics are a full time job. No one stands over the player’s shoulder telling him what to do. The only thing a college kid is told is “go home” if he’s not self disciplined enough to get everything done.
I would argue pre school high school practices are good for future college athletes. They get in the mode with supervision and a kick in the rear.
To add to your point about how cutthroat college can be: When Ryno was a soph. at his JC, he and a couple of the boys were late for the bus by a couple of minutes. The coach left them, and he did not allow them to travel to that weekend's games. (By the way, he was named Region Pitcher of the Year, and had a .84 ERA (Regular Season), and 1.04 ERA (After Postseason)) So it wasn't as if he wasn't needed.
Point is, that these kids have to develop discipline to play in college. A 6 AM practice is not going to hurt them. It will actually help them prepare for the rigors of college athletics. The schedule for a college athlete is very difficult, and especially when they take a reasonably hard major.
but If they walk to the practice barefoot in the snow, will that have an impact? In HS, for baseball, in our region I dont know of a single school that does morning work outs. Not one. That seems like a football mentality to me, and they hit their heads a lot...just sayin’
Chico Escuela posted:joes87 posted:Chico Escuela posted:CoachB25 posted:
6a. You guys are lazy. During tryout week my kids ex HS held tryouts at 5am. They underwent a renovation years back and had limited field house space (we are in the north so tryouts are indoors). It’s since been corrected and there is enough space. But the year they had to hold early morning tryouts we won the state championship. Now 7 years later the tradition holds. If you want it bad enough you show up.
Again, I’d like to know what happened to baseball players’ GPA as a result of this schedule. Maybe they were all forced to really focus and manage their time well and so they actually improved. Maybe. But school should come first and as a parent I’d be concerned about whether my teenager could manage this commitment without hurting his schoolwork. Many kids could not.
Im not sure if it had much of an affect as it was only 1 week. The kids know its coming and know to suck it up and be prepared. I will say its a good question and I don't really have an answer. It has become a tradition around here. Something the kids can rally around.
Chico Escuela posted:My last post on this:
—Most of you are talking about the habits of the 1% of baseball players and generalizing from that. Most HS players will not play college ball. High standards are great, but most kids on a HS team are not the players people are talking about here
—Chico Jr’s goal is an HA school. He will pick a school for its academics first, because he ain’t going to earn his living in MLB and he knows it. To attend a 5 am workout at the expense of his Physics grade would be foolish. Maybe he could do pre-dawn workouts and still get the grades he wants, but if a conflict were to emerge, his parents are going to frog march him to the library, not the weight room.
—My son has offseason workouts 5 days/week, including 8 am on Saturday. Weekday sessions are after school plus one day at 8 pm. Based on the logic of some posters, he would be better off if instead he worked out at 5 am, because that would be harder and therefore make him more disciplined. Heck, why stop there?—he could wake up at 3:00 a.m. to work out and then grab another hour of sleep at 6:00. That would be harder, so therefore better, right? My position is that HS kids are better off if they don’t have to be in the gym at 5 in the morning on school days. That is not a bold claim, guys. Telling me your kid did it and was ok doesn’t mean it’s a good idea for an entire HS program if there is an alternative. Biology is what it is—most teens don’t function optimally on that early a schedule
—My son is responsible for his own calendar. As a junior, he is better at this than he was as a sophomore. When he goes to college in ~2 years, I expect him to be more mature and responsible than he is now. If his college coach schedules 5:00 am workouts, then my son will have to deal with that. This doesn’t change my position that most 16- and 17- year olds are likely to perform better in high school if they don’t begin their day puking in the gym before dawn.
Chico, I seem to have angered you with my post. That was not my intent. However, I won't apologize for taking these kids and giving them the opportunity to improve themselves. Again, no one was ever forced to come, roll was not taken, and I was doing what I thought was right. I always say that some people look for excuses to lose and I give reasons to be win. While it doesn't matter, my daughter grew up doing these workouts as well. She went on to become an NCAA All American and a Scholastic All American. So, I didn't ask something of someone else's child that I didn't ask of mine. Again, she was never forced to go.
Isn't it funny how people interpret a given event? I looked at what we did as doing more than my job. I looked at it like I was giving these players a chance to become the best that they could be. You look at it like I did something wrong. You think it harsh or even cruel. I came from a school that contended for state titles every year and were nationally ranked each year to a program that no one knew. I came from a program where players went to major D-Is and were drafted to a school that hadn't had someone play major D-I and had one play professionally in the 1940s. I wanted to give my new players the same effort I gave to my previous players. Give that opportunity in two sports. Chico, when I hear about how hard people work to coach a team, I wonder if they know how to build a program. It starts at the top. It starts with high expectations. I was told I had a year to win our I would be fired. It was very controversial when I made the switch in schools. I came to a "Coaching Graveyard." The basketball team won 3 games or less for 10 straight years. The baseball team, while respectable had never won a regional. The school I came from once beat this school 29 - 0.
Well, I'm rambling. Many here followed the success of my teams back in the day. We started winning and winning a bunch. We started winning regional titles and beating some of the best teams in the state. For a school of 1000, we were regularly beating schools of 2,400+. We had players drafted, playing in the B1G, ... The basketball team also began to win the conference, regional championships and sectional championships. In fact, they were listed in Streets and Smith as one of the Top 100 up and coming basketball programs in America.
In the end, parents agreed with Chico's position that I demanded too much in basketball. I resigned after winning 24 games, 2 tournaments and losing in the sectional championship. In a couple of years, the basketball team didn't win a game. They are on pace this year to win five or less. If it is any consolation, neither the baseball nor the basketball team do what I did back then so, you won't have to worry. Coaches like me don't last long now. This is my last year and yes, the softball team gets after it. We might be a contender this year for a state title. Then, they too can worry about other things than the old man.
Edited to add:
I forgot to address the notion that I do things after school. I don't know about your schools but boy's basketball has 3 teams and girl's basketball has 2 teams. The wrestling team has 2 teams. In our school, track gets a balcony and they do pole vaulting up there. Cheer-leading and Drill Team get the small gym when the basketball teams aren't in there. Also, indoor track gets any other open time. Finally, we have intramural sports and they get any other gym time in the evening when either gym is open. We had as an option 6 a.m. or nothing. Since I was coaching basketball and had to scout, 6 a.m. was my only option regardless of anything else.
CoachB25: Not angry in the slightest. I enjoyed the discussion. And I absolutely get that for a coach to attend pre-dawn workouts takes commitment on his part.
My initial goal was to ask whether your morning work outs might be asking so much from players that it took away from academics. I tried to pose it as a question, not an assertion. Then (IMO) the discussion shifted to arguments in favor of the kind of self-discipline and maturity that we wish every kid possessed, but I think not many do as teens. I admit to being frustrated with posts about kids who work out 3 hours a day while pursuing demanding academic programs. Nothing against those kids of course (I aspire to raise a couple like that myself), but they aren’t the mine run of HS baseball players. Maybe even an average player/student can and should be able to handle 5 or 6 a.m. workouts... I’m skeptical, but I don’t categorically say no.
I said the previous was my last post on this topic not because of any anger, but because when I get wound up about a topic here I tend to write too much and it eats up my time. I enjoy the discussions here very much, but I was trying to cut myself off on this one.
2022OFDad posted:...and they hit their heads a lot...just sayin’
Gotta give this a special +1 shoutout. Too funny
Found myself thinking more about this topic last night: If you want to be the best baseball player you can, then you want a coach who will push you (and you have to push yourself). That means a lot of time on the field and in the gym (and you want a coach dedicated enough to be there with you).
But if you devote that much time to baseball, you probably can't also be a world-class concert pianist. (Yes, a handful of folks can do both. They are one in hundreds of millions.)
All of us go through life having to parcel out our time and energy--some goes to family, some to work, some to church or coaching or fishing... HS students are no different. There are 24 hours in a day--some portion goes to school and studying, some to athletics or other pursuits.
Seems to me what any caring parent wants is for their kid to find a balance--to challenge themselves and succeed on the field and off. If your kid truly has early-round draft pick talent, then he might focus more on baseball than on the classroom. (Or maybe he can accomplish both. In that case, I think my point about balance still holds, but the balance may look different.) For 99+% of athletes, education is the key to being able to earn a living as adults. Baseball is terrific and you want your kid to work hard and succeed there; but if push comes to shove, it's not most folks' top priority. (And this site is HSBaseball Web, not Draft Pick Web.)
A good coach wants that balance for his players, too. He's going to demand a lot from them, but not so much that it hurts their academic performance or their health. Like all humans, even a great coach is going to get that balance wrong sometimes. My posts here weren't meant to attack CoachB25--sounds like he was committed to his players and his program. I just wanted to ask: Does asking most HS baseball players to show up for very early workouts on school days have too much potential to hurt their performance in school? (I get that CoachB25's workouts were voluntary. But if a kid wants to play, he's going to try to show up for them.)
I mentioned this topic to my son last night. He reminded me (I had forgotten) that his HS team tried a few 7:00 a.m. workouts last winter. Son attended those, but not enough kids showed up and those that came strongly preferred evening workouts. I don't know if any parents expressed concerns last year (I did not). Sounds like my son's HS coaching staff made a call they thought was right for their program. I got no beef with that.
I think something to keep in mind is where the school's are located (weather), what other sports are being offered at the time, etc. Example here in IL, you obviously are forced to be inside until March (sometimes April). Winter workouts: you've basketball going on so many times you can't do anything 3pm-6pm. Is Wrestling/Football using the weight room after school? Do you want to provide your program with open gyms/workouts? Put out mounds so pitchers can start to throw in Jan/Feb? What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then. Many times you are kind of forced to choose between the 5:30am-7:30am route....or go later at night. But then later at night also cuts into homework/studying. Kids should be going home at 3pm to do school work right away, correct?
There's just many factors depending on school location, weather, what the school offers (some may even be opening up their gyms/fieldhouses to the public for park district agreements at night).
For many in the midwest, it's the norm that for baseball you're going have those early morning times to get anything in. Otherwise it would be telling players in August when school starts, "Sorry we don't have any space or availability due to other school commitments, see you March 1st".
It's funny yesterday after our work outs I started speaking to the guys. "Everyone has a choice. Do you want to be special? Do you want to be average? What is the difference? What does it take?"
The players who reach their potential ability while in HS all have some things in common. One of those things is the ability to self discipline themselves. The other is they put in work outside of what is required of them. I don't care how much or how little a coach requires from his players the players most likely to reach their full potential while in your program are those who practice self discipline and do more on their own, outside of what is required.
You can't practice self discipline in one area of your life and not practice it in every area your life if you want to be successful. Learning how to be self disciplined means you carry that with you in every part of your life. So the same things that will help you reach your potential as a baseball player will also assist you with being the best student you can be. The best young man you can be. The best son you can be. The best friend you can be.
If a coach is demanding of you learn to be demanding on yourself. Learn the self discipline that it takes to be successful. Take that same approach to every area of your life. Instead of playing video games study more. Learn time management. Learn to go to bed and get up early. Find ways to do more than everyone else. If a coach is not demanding of you learn to be demanding of yourself.
When does a 15 16 17 18 year old kid learn to be a man? He stops being a kid and starts practicing a man's life style of self discipline and excellence in everything he does. He demands excellence from himself regardless of what other's demand of him. Coaching HS baseball regardless of what others think is not about JUST baseball. It can't be in order to be successful as a Coach. It's about teaching young men how to self discipline themselves, how to step outside the norm around them and push for greatness. They may never be the best player you have. But if they are the greatest they could have been and learn how to push and reach for greatness everyday then you have achieved greatness.
The same things that make you the best player you can be at that given time will also make you the best you you can be at that given time. And those practices will serve them long after the glove and bat are put away. Discipline, a desire to be the greatest you can be, the understanding that average is failure and you must step outside the circle and strive for more in everything you do. Coaches who do not demand greatness from their student athletes are failing them miserably. Find something else to do. If your not hanging by a thread your too comfortable. Learn to take a nap on the edge of the cliff. Get comfortable with that. It will serve you well. JMHO
Coach May, that was very well said. But I assume that if you have a baseball player on your team who can contribute, but whose primary sport is basketball, you don't penalize him for not being at winter workouts and for playing AAU ball in the summer instead of baseball. We can't commit 100% to everything (although we can try out best when we are doing whatever we do). Just like my hypothetical basketball player, maybe a kid on your team dreams of being a physicist--he wants to play baseball, but he's not willing to give up a summer of classes and research at the local university in order to play travel ball.
G.K. Chesterson wrote that "a thing worth doing is worth doing badly." He meant that it's ok to be an amateur--to do something worthwhile even if you can't commit your heart and soul to it. That's not inconsistent with going all out when you are on the field; but it may affect how often you are on the field or in the weight room.
I don't penalize my players for not being at off season work outs. Never have never will. I don't penalize them for not doing anything extra during the season or out of season. I put the guys on the field that I believe give my team the best opportunity to win. I have several players that work during the summer. They also will work after school up to the first official practice date of baseball. I won't see them until Feb 11th. I respect that. Their families count on it. Every kids situation is different.
I do believe they will reach their full potential they could have reached while they are in HS if they follow the basic principles I posted earlier. I don't know GK. But I know Kenny May. And Kenny May believes "Anything worth my time is worth my best." The problem with doing things "badly" or as we say where I am from "Half Assed" is that becomes a habit. JMO
If people disagree with my beliefs that self discipline and a true desire to be great are a good thing fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. There are plenty of coaches who wouldn't agree with the way I do a lot of things. But that's ok they don't play for me.
I don't expect a player playing another sport to be there. Be giving it your all to that. When it's time to study be giving your all to that. When its time to work be giving your all to that. What ever your doing just give it your best. Make that a habit. But it is also a curse that I will admit to. "Give me those freaking horse shoes that some BS!!" "Let's go again!!"
What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.
Are you serious with the badminton thing? Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE. you learn something new every day. I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.
When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM. I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person). 35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school. Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently. It was miserable. I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled. You do what you got to do.
PitchingFan posted:What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.
Are you serious with the badminton thing? Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE. you learn something new every day. I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.
When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM. I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person). 35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school. Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently. It was miserable. I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled. You do what you got to do.
Badminton as a sanction sport is alive and well here in IL. Same for bowling and bass fishing
joes87 posted:PitchingFan posted:What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.
Are you serious with the badminton thing? Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE. you learn something new every day. I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.
When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM. I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person). 35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school. Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently. It was miserable. I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled. You do what you got to do.
Badminton as a sanction sport is alive and well here in IL. Same for bowling and bass fishing
I was just talking to a guy at a HS in the Northeast yesterday... JUST the boys sports include baseball, basketball, Bowling, chess, crew, x-country, fencing, football, golf, ice hockey, lacrosse, rugby, sailing, soccer, spring track, squash, surfing, swimming, tennis, volleyball, winter track, wrestling. And most have V and JV squads, some more. Remember, Northeast where outside practice during the winter isn't an option. 40 ish sports teams, just the boys.
Some crazy HS sports... the thing that struck me most as odd was a NE HS having a surf team. But beyond that... Ya think gym time and weight room time is at a premium? Ya think everything can be done between the comfortable hours of 3pm and 8pm?
Well, the chess team can probably do its weight room circuit pretty quickly...
We have baseball class so they work out all during off season but 90% of our varsity team also works out 3-4X a week with a private guy. They are making huge gains and all putting in a lot of work. We will see how it pans out. All play for different summer clubs, so no coordinating there.
PitchingFan posted:What if your school offers indoor track/badminton in the spring? No court time there then.
Are you serious with the badminton thing? Never heard of a school offering badminton other than maybe play it in PE. you learn something new every day. I wonder if the Badminton team practices at 5 AM.
When I coached middle school Boys Basketball in Missouri, we practiced at 5:30AM. I was sure no one would show up (ok, I was hoping no one would show up because I'm not a morning person). 35 7th and 8th grade boys showed up at a 2A school. Every day because that was the only gym time we could get consistently. It was miserable. I did morning workouts in the winter for baseball from 7-7:30 because of how many played basketball and wrestled. You do what you got to do.
We had to do this my Freshman year of HS too. Just not enough gym space in small towns.
Most high school players have to make choice between Club and High school by law. Here in Nebraska a kid can not play club ball while on a high school roster, and in the summer they have to get a waiver to player legion ball while on a club ball roster.
But to answer your question the priority should be the high school program as that is long term.
For example, my 2021 Catcher has this schedule -
Sunday's - catching workouts with a former catcher in the Dodger organization, followed by bullpens at the High School.
Monday - 6am strength/conditioning with the team before school
Tuesday - Conditioning with a personal trainer after school
Wednesday - 6am strength/conditioning with the team before school and hitting after school
Thursday - Conditioning with a personal trainer after school, throwing wit the team in the evening
Friday - 6am strength/conditioning with the team before school
Saturday - Hitting
And more then once I've asked him to back it down as this is a lot on his plate; but he's doing okay with it and maintaining his grades.