D1 Baseball + STEM Degree

Ripken Fan posted:

backyardonfire posted:

Our 2020 position player has been working through the recruiting process with a focus on high academic D3 and potentially ivy league schools.  He has recently received some interest from a couple of non-ivy D1 schools.  He would like to pursue a degree in science or engineering, and we are having a difficult time determining the D1 schools that would make this type of degree possible in conjunction with playing baseball.  My impression is that there aren't many D1 schools where this would be possible.  Some schools list players' majors on their profiles, which can help, but many D1 schools don't appear to do this.

If your 2020 wanted to pursue a STEM degree at an academically challenging school, what D1 schools would be on your list?

Good luck to your son; I applaud you for looking into this early. Make sure your son get his test scores (SAT/ACT) completed soon.

Funny you mention that . . . he took the SAT this morning.  He has definitely put the work in.  Fingers crossed that it pays off.

Both Fenway and my son graduated with STEM degrees; his went to an Ivy and mine to a D3. We found out late in the recruiting process that STEM and D1 are NOT compatible. Exceptions were Ivy's, some Patriot, Stanford, Vtech, Cal Poly, there may be a handful of others - but not many. Pitchers can get by much easier than position players. 

If you are in the recruiting process you need to ask lots of SPECIFIC questions on how they handle afternoon lab time, specifically how certain players schedules differ from the mainstream players, how they pair up high academic kids in travel, etc. If they don't give you specific examples then beware. Look at rosters for those majors. 

Your son better be able to function on limited sleep and be extremely disciplined. My son routinely was going to bed at 2:00AM, and up for classes at 7 and they let him do his lifting and "get his baseball work in" on his on schedule. Friday nights when his many of the players were out partying, his was in the library working, same with travel, and they paired up HA kids. Most D1's have early morning mandatory lifting at 6:00AM which will not work for a STEM major. 

It is possible but not at highly competitive programs. You need to keep reminding yourself that coaches are paid to win, not graduate scientists and engineers. 

Local boy gets recruited to a Patriot engineering school, coach recommended business....engineering wasn’t really an option. 

My son initially signed his NLI with a Power 5 school. He wanted to pursue Biology and then apply to Physician Assistant grad programs upon graduation. He was told it would be difficult before he committed but felt he could handle it. Once there in the fall,  the mandatory 6 am workouts along with an average of 25- 30 hours each week at the field made it really difficult. Every extra minute was spent studying with very little sleep. In the spring it got worse. There were 4 weeks where the team left campus on a wed or thurs and he was forced to miss labs and a number of classes. He didn't want to give up his dream of being a PA and ended up transferring to a D3 school with a top notch BB program.

We thought the balance would be better. It was in the off season however, during the season the league instituted mid week DH's which started at noon in addition to the regularly scheduled 2 DH's on the weekends. So, he was still missing important classes at a very rigorous school.  Coaches still like to win at this level and they may say that academics come first but that's not always the case. 

My son's attitude when he signed was that BB was a way to get his education paid for. The majority of his teammate's goals at the D1 were to get drafted. Nothing wrong with either avenue. 

My son is now a senior and has decided to forego his last season of BB and focus on what he wants to do for the rest of his life. It's been a hard pill to swallow for his parents but he is at peace with his decision. 

It's just really hard to be fully committed to both STEM and BB at any level. 

I would be reluctant to endorse the generation that it can’t be done  at the majority of D1’s. It really depends on the player and the school.  

Several of my son’s teammates did it. One majored in some kind of life science and went to dental school. My son had extra time on campus because of injury and transfer redshirt years, which enabled him to earn a masters in cyber security and quickly land a cyber security engineer job with a defense contractor.

While reading everyone's responses the main thing that goes through my mind is that NCAA defines them as "student athletes", students first and athlete secondary.  Welcome to the real world!

Swampboy posted:

I would be reluctant to endorse the generation that it can’t be done  at the majority of D1’s. It really depends on the player and the school.  

Several of my son’s teammates did it. One majored in some kind of life science and went to dental school. My son had extra time on campus because of injury and transfer redshirt years, which enabled him to earn a masters in cyber security and quickly land a cyber security engineer job with a defense contractor.

 

 

Agreed.  I would not be too quick to rule out a STEM major at MOST D1's.  Yeah, there may be a few school schools where it simply can't be done, by anyone.  But, I am convinced that it is possible at MOST D1's.   Is it possible for every kid?  Of course not, no more than it is possible for every kid to PLAY at a high level D1.   But, I am convinced that a lot more kids could do it than currently do.  

TRUST IN HIM, you nailed it.  For the vast majority of schools in the Power 5 conferences, it's all about the wins.  They'll all try to make sure he gets some kind of degree, but they don't distinguish between Basket Weaving and Engineering.  

Trust In Him posted:

While reading everyone's responses the main thing that goes through my mind is that NCAA defines them as "student athletes", students first and athlete secondary.  Welcome to the real world!

The relevance of academics to the coach is maintaining eligibility. To the paying parents academics is getting a good grades in a major useful for getting a good job. 

RJM posted:

Trust In Him posted:

While reading everyone's responses the main thing that goes through my mind is that NCAA defines them as "student athletes", students first and athlete secondary.  Welcome to the real world!

The relevance of academics to the coach is maintaining eligibility. To the paying parents academics is getting a good grades in a major useful for getting a good job. 

Very well stated.

As a member very large orthopedic group that trains residents, (believe me I am an academics first kind of guy) this may offend some people, but it is just my own opinion, and we all have a right to my own opinion.  

My personal feeling is STEM degrees are the only degrees worth paying for with very few exceptions.  And my advice with very few exceptions is don’t do a STEM degree or attend an HA at any level while playing baseball.

Neither I nor any of my partners would advise anyone to do a STEM degree while playing baseball.  Nor would any of us tell someone to waste money trying to academically compete at an HA while playing baseball.  We simply don’t care where you went to school and A’s are A’s and B’s are B’s, so you are better off to game-the-system to your advantage.

Think of it like college baseball recruiting.  Coaches don’t care about where you went to HS, or what your HS coach/ history teacher has to say about you, or what your BA, ERA, etc. was.  They care about how hard you throw, how far the ball flies off the bat, how fast you are,  what your mechanics are like, and what your Travel ball coach( hopefully a former college coach, Pro or D1 player) has to say about your potential and character.

When we see an applicant for our residency program, we don’t care about where he went to school, we don’t care about what his med school instructors say, and we don’t care about the complexity of his schedule.  Someone that took 6 years to go through school with a 4.0 still has a 4.0, someone that took 3 and did it with a 3.7 still has to compete with that 4.0.

In order of importance, we care about what his test scores look like(fastball velo, swing speed, 60 time -something we can measure against other applicants).  Letters of recommendation from other ortho docs (what do his travel ball coaches-former D1 and pro players tell us about his personality, understanding of the game, character and overall potential.) Finally, we care about his mechanical inclination and fcan he do the work( control/command/throwing motion/swing mechanics). 

This is my admittedly very egotistical opinion on this topic,  and like I said there are always exceptions.  But  from HA D3 to the SEC - these are the coaches careers, and they get paid to win baseball games, not graduate players.   There were a few exceptions we came across.  There were a few HA programs that I really felt did it in a pure way.  

They hardly talked to us about baseball when we visited and would tell us about all the fantastic opportunities and job offers their players had.  It was awesome at some of them.  They graduated right at 100% or just below it, and it seems everyone had great jobs lined up.  

But, all their baseball teams sucked.  My son said that just wasn’t what he was looking for.   So baseball first with pre-req classes followed by the real academics when baseball is done.

Pedaldad posted:

As a member very large orthopedic group that trains residents, (believe me I am an academics first kind of guy) this may offend some people, but it is just my own opinion, and we all have a right to my own opinion.  

My personal feeling is STEM degrees are the only degrees worth paying for with very few exceptions.  And my advice with very few exceptions is don’t do a STEM degree or attend an HA at any level while playing baseball.

Neither I nor any of my partners would advise anyone to do a STEM degree while playing baseball.  Nor would any of us tell someone to waste money trying to academically compete at an HA while playing baseball.  We simply don’t care where you went to school and A’s are A’s and B’s are B’s, so you are better off to game-the-system to your advantage.

Think of it like college baseball recruiting.  Coaches don’t care about where you went to HS, or what your HS coach/ history teacher has to say about you, or what your BA, ERA, etc. was.  They care about how hard you throw, how far the ball flies off the bat, how fast you are,  what your mechanics are like, and what your Travel ball coach( hopefully a former college coach, Pro or D1 player) has to say about your potential and character.

When we see an applicant for our residency program, we don’t care about where he went to school, we don’t care about what his med school instructors say, and we don’t care about the complexity of his schedule.  Someone that took 6 years to go through school with a 4.0 still has a 4.0, someone that took 3 and did it with a 3.7 still has to compete with that 4.0.

In order of importance, we care about what his test scores look like(fastball velo, swing speed, 60 time -something we can measure against other applicants).  Letters of recommendation from other ortho docs (what do his travel ball coaches-former D1 and pro players tell us about his personality, understanding of the game, character and overall potential.) Finally, we care about his mechanical inclination and fcan he do the work( control/command/throwing motion/swing mechanics). 

This is my admittedly very egotistical opinion on this topic,  and like I said there are always exceptions.  But  from HA D3 to the SEC - these are the coaches careers, and they get paid to win baseball games, not graduate players.   There were a few exceptions we came across.  There were a few HA programs that I really felt did it in a pure way.  

They hardly talked to us about baseball when we visited and would tell us about all the fantastic opportunities and job offers their players had.  It was awesome at some of them.  They graduated right at 100% or just below it, and it seems everyone had great jobs lined up.  

But, all their baseball teams sucked.  My son said that just wasn’t what he was looking for.   So baseball first with pre-req classes followed by the real academics when baseball is done.

 

 

Agree with this 100%, as it applies to the non medical field as well.  One thing I said during the recruiting journey is I want to be sure my son enjoyed his college baseball experience when choosing a school.  The job will come and his success will be determined by how hard he works, networks, etc., not based on the school on a piece of paper.

Having said that, of course he chose the school with the better academic history and the one costing (for both me and him) the most.  He may regret that decision once he starts paying down his loans, but that's a different story...

Pedaldad posted:

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But, all their baseball teams sucked.  My son said that just wasn’t what he was looking for.   So baseball first with pre-req classes followed by the real academics when baseball is done.

 

 

I agree with your statements about college baseball and STEM degrees in general.   I understand 100% where you are coming from.   

I will disagree that if you want to pursue both STEM and college baseball that you have to settle for teams that "suck".  But, I guess "sucked" is in the eye of the beholder...in this case, your son.  There are D1 programs that can provide both a high level STEM education and a mid-level D1 baseball experience for those that are passionate about both....I believe that was the OPs question.   I've seen it with my own eyes many times on the baseball field.   These teams may not be as deep as higher level D1 teams but there is D1 talent throughout their lineups.  

fenwaysouth posted:

 

I will disagree that if you want to pursue both STEM and college baseball that you have to settle for teams that "suck".  But, I guess "sucked" is in the eye of the beholder...in this case, your son.  There are D1 programs that can provide both a high level STEM education and a mid-level D1 baseball experience for those that are passionate about both....I believe that was the OPs question.   I've seen it with my own eyes many times on the baseball field.   These teams may not be as deep as higher level D1 teams but there is D1 talent throughout their lineups.  

 

^^^^^^^^

CTbballDad posted:

Pedaldad posted:

As a member very large orthopedic group that trains residents, (believe me I am an academics first kind of guy) this may offend some people, but it is just my own opinion, and we all have a right to my own opinion.  

My personal feeling is STEM degrees are the only degrees worth paying for with very few exceptions.  And my advice with very few exceptions is don’t do a STEM degree or attend an HA at any level while playing baseball.

Neither I nor any of my partners would advise anyone to do a STEM degree while playing baseball.  Nor would any of us tell someone to waste money trying to academically compete at an HA while playing baseball.  We simply don’t care where you went to school and A’s are A’s and B’s are B’s, so you are better off to game-the-system to your advantage.

Think of it like college baseball recruiting.  Coaches don’t care about where you went to HS, or what your HS coach/ history teacher has to say about you, or what your BA, ERA, etc. was.  They care about how hard you throw, how far the ball flies off the bat, how fast you are,  what your mechanics are like, and what your Travel ball coach( hopefully a former college coach, Pro or D1 player) has to say about your potential and character.

When we see an applicant for our residency program, we don’t care about where he went to school, we don’t care about what his med school instructors say, and we don’t care about the complexity of his schedule.  Someone that took 6 years to go through school with a 4.0 still has a 4.0, someone that took 3 and did it with a 3.7 still has to compete with that 4.0.

In order of importance, we care about what his test scores look like(fastball velo, swing speed, 60 time -something we can measure against other applicants).  Letters of recommendation from other ortho docs (what do his travel ball coaches-former D1 and pro players tell us about his personality, understanding of the game, character and overall potential.) Finally, we care about his mechanical inclination and fcan he do the work( control/command/throwing motion/swing mechanics). 

This is my admittedly very egotistical opinion on this topic,  and like I said there are always exceptions.  But  from HA D3 to the SEC - these are the coaches careers, and they get paid to win baseball games, not graduate players.   There were a few exceptions we came across.  There were a few HA programs that I really felt did it in a pure way.  

They hardly talked to us about baseball when we visited and would tell us about all the fantastic opportunities and job offers their players had.  It was awesome at some of them.  They graduated right at 100% or just below it, and it seems everyone had great jobs lined up.  

But, all their baseball teams sucked.  My son said that just wasn’t what he was looking for.   So baseball first with pre-req classes followed by the real academics when baseball is done.

 

 

Agree with this 100%, as it applies to the non medical field as well.  One thing I said during the recruiting journey is I want to be sure my son enjoyed his college baseball experience when choosing a school.  The job will come and his success will be determined by how hard he works, networks, etc., not based on the school on a piece of paper.

Having said that, of course he chose the school with the better academic history and the one costing (for both me and him) the most.  He may regret that decision once he starts paying down his loans, but that's a different story...

When my cousin’s daughter didn’t get into an Ivy or a NESCAC he told her she’s going to UConn. He told her he wasn’t paying 65K per year just so she could say she didn’t go to her state university. He can afford any college. He doesn’t believe in wasting money. 

From growing up in New England I know in my generation there’s a stigma attached to attending a state university. Some are much better than they used to be. New Englanders don’t understand away from New England a lot of state universities are excellent schools. 

fenwaysouth posted:

Pedaldad posted:

..........................................................

But, all their baseball teams sucked.  My son said that just wasn’t what he was looking for.   So baseball first with pre-req classes followed by the real academics when baseball is done.

 

 

I agree with your statements about college baseball and STEM degrees in general.   I understand 100% where you are coming from.   

I will disagree that if you want to pursue both STEM and college baseball that you have to settle for teams that "suck".  But, I guess "sucked" is in the eye of the beholder...in this case, your son.  There are D1 programs that can provide both a high level STEM education and a mid-level D1 baseball experience for those that are passionate about both....I believe that was the OPs question.   I've seen it with my own eyes many times on the baseball field.   These teams may not be as deep as higher level D1 teams but there is D1 talent throughout their lineups.  

 

I agree completely that there are schools that can provide it at every level.   What I am saying is that anyone puts themselves at a disadvantage if you are trying to compete at a HA school while playing a truly competitive sport.

You will get slaughtered in the classroom by your classmates that are every bit as bright as you, but don’t have the demands of a sport.

Pedaldad posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

Pedaldad posted:

..........................................................

But, all their baseball teams sucked.  My son said that just wasn’t what he was looking for.   So baseball first with pre-req classes followed by the real academics when baseball is done.

 

 

I agree with your statements about college baseball and STEM degrees in general.   I understand 100% where you are coming from.   

I will disagree that if you want to pursue both STEM and college baseball that you have to settle for teams that "suck".  But, I guess "sucked" is in the eye of the beholder...in this case, your son.  There are D1 programs that can provide both a high level STEM education and a mid-level D1 baseball experience for those that are passionate about both....I believe that was the OPs question.   I've seen it with my own eyes many times on the baseball field.   These teams may not be as deep as higher level D1 teams but there is D1 talent throughout their lineups.  

 

I agree completely that there are schools that can provide it at every level.   What I am saying is that anyone puts themselves at a disadvantage if you are trying to compete at a HA school while playing a truly competitive sport.

You will get slaughtered in the classroom by your classmates that are every bit as bright as you, but don’t have the demands of a sport.

As Pedaldad said, sure you can do both and I agree that the athlete is at a disadvantage. The issue is attaining the grades to move on after graduation.  A high GPA is required for my son to even entertain thoughts of securing a spot in a Physician Asst. grad program. 800 to 1,000 applicants for 40 spots at most schools. I'm sure not all STEM programs are so driven by GPA.  At all levels of BB there are only so many hours in the week. And, when the player is spending an average of 25-30 hours on the field, it's very tough to excel in the classroom without the additional hours to study.

Pedaldad posted: 

I agree completely that there are schools that can provide it at every level.   What I am saying is that anyone puts themselves at a disadvantage if you are trying to compete at a HA school while playing a truly competitive sport.

You will get slaughtered in the classroom by your classmates that are every bit as bright as you, but don’t have the demands of a sport.

Again, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree mostly on the term "anyone" because I know quite a few folks that have made this work and gone on to be Vets, Lawyers, Pediatricians, Orthopedic Surgeons, Chemical Engineers, Nuclear Engineers, Material Science Engineers and Mechanical Engineers.   By far getting into Vet school was the most difficult .   These people thrived in this environment.  They found an extra academic gear in college when they were challenged by both.  In addition the baseball programs they played for were flexible.   It can be done.   I've seen it.   Do I think this is for everybody? Absolutely not, which is why my son saw 35% of incoming declared freshmen engineers change their major by  sophomore year.   Know thy self. 

I respect pedaldad's opinion - particularly regarding the competitive nature and the need to excel in terms of GPA, etc.  I also applaud his acknowledgement that his opinion may offend some readers.  I suppose I'll take exception to his opinion that STEM degrees, with very few exceptions, are the only form of degree worth paying for. The world is a better place with more passionate, young elementary school teachers entering the workforce, for example, is it not?  Our son was a "dreaded" History major at a well-regarded HA liberal arts school, played ball all four years.  I recall multiple 50+ page research papers on such scintillating topics as 1400's Japanese history, the Cuban revolution, Nicaragua, etc..., the reading requirements were heavy, and one could not breeze/skim the reading.  Learned to think and write, dare shall I say, like a surgeon of the English language.  The skills have served him quite well to say the least, post graduation.

It would be interesting to compare the attrition rates of non-athlete STEM majors to that of STEM athletes.  Is the attrition rate greater for athletes?  Maybe its the same, or less even? Our younger son is a non-athlete senior year Cell/Molecular Biology major.  He stated overall attrition was pretty strong during/after Freshman year, and Soph year was when the hammer really dropped.  These were not athletes.  Anyways, this is a good conversation.

Generally, only the best and brightest aim for STEM degrees; and a significant portion of those will change majors (like most college kids). For baseball players (actually all athletes), their teammates will probably have significant influence on the academic rigor your son may choose - and in a D1 environment that influence may not be positive. (As opposed to a Rose-Hulman or MIT squad. In D1, the service academies also are STEM schools.) So, when parsing a roster and you find that STEM major, you are truly looking at an outlier.

My son attended a high academic D1. He, as well as several of his incoming class, preliminarily declared in the STEM area. Neither the school, nor the coach, nor the profs discouraged STEM; but no-one from that group graduated with a STEM degree. (Son had straight As in HS with 8 5s on APs - mostly in science and math - and a 34 (one try) ACT.) He graduated middle of his class with a degree in economics (math and data based). No way he could've remained eligible in a STEM field. BUT, during his time he had a teammate - a true walkon - get the grades to attend Medical school AND had another teammate graduate as a Mechanical Engineer with highest honors. Both those kids were truly extraordinary. (Cor example, the ME devised an app which predicted opposing pitches - before the fifth inning of his first game!)

(BTW, the ME decided not to practice; went to Bain Capital instead. Those international employers really seek out top shelf STEM grads.)

I would suggest that you'll pick the school which offers the best career options; and which also plays baseball. Your son may not become a STEM major for a variety of reasons (loses passion, finds another passion, etc.) BUT he will be able to find a deeply rewarding career coming from a college environment which fosters intellectual growth and curiosity.

DO NOT SACRIFICE ACADEMICS FOR BASEBALL (jmo); rather, leverage baseball into that top academic school. In the end, most every college baseball player will be done with baseball by the time he is 26; then life begins and baseball is in the rear view mirror.

(Oh, the D1 schools I would put on the list include every IVY, Davidson, the service academies, and Stanford. As for the other HA D1s, I'd do a lot more research - athletes may not have the same academic experience as regular students.)

One additional note:  S spanned 7 years of classes and only a single player left the school. And all - except those who were drafted as juniors - graduated in 4 years (with no debt).

Where you attend college may matter depending on your objectives. My daughter’s undergrad school was one of the top in the country in her major. But in the big picture it was seen by northeast corridor (Ivy, Georgetown, UVA)  elite law schools as a mediocre southern school. She was shut out despite graduating PBK and a top 5% LSAT. 

She worked in a prestigious Washington international law firm for two years building contacts and references to get accepted to some of those law schools that previously rejected her. 

Where you attend law school can have dramatic effect on your future.